Grex Music3 Conference

Item 119: The Twelfth Napster Item

Entered by krj on Thu Sep 26 22:41:20 2002:

Napster the corporation has been destroyed, but Napster's paradigm
continues on.  This is another installment in a series of weblogs 
and discussions about the deconstruction of the music industry and
other copyright industries, with side forays into 
"intellectual property, freedom of expression, electronic media,
corporate control, and evolving technology," as polygon phrased it.
 
Several years of back items are easily found in the music2 and music3
conferences.
160 responses total.

#1 of 160 by krj on Thu Sep 26 22:59:22 2002:

     ((( fall agora #25   <--->   music #119 )))
 
There's been a torrent of interesting articles since the Agora rollover;
I'll try to paste in links for all the ones I can still remember over the 
next day or three.
 
It's widely reported that the music biz is launching a new anti-downloading
ad campaign which will use top artists such as Britney Spears, Luciano
Pavarotti, the Dixie Chicks and Eminem, to convey their message that 
downloading songs through the Internet is theft.   The campaign is 
sponsored by a broad array of music industry groups.  Here's the 
Washington Post link:
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2894-2002Sep25.html


#2 of 160 by mcnally on Thu Sep 26 23:31:18 2002:

  Great.

  I can't wait to receive advice from Eminem on how to behave responsibly..


#3 of 160 by orinoco on Fri Sep 27 14:48:40 2002:

I can't wait to see what happens when you put Eminem and Pavarotti in the same
room.


#4 of 160 by goose on Fri Sep 27 14:53:31 2002:

Eminem and (Sir?) Elton John was weird enough.


#5 of 160 by mxyzptlk on Fri Sep 27 14:53:56 2002:

Perhaps Pavarotti can persuade Eminem to retire along with him?
Word.


#6 of 160 by krj on Fri Sep 27 19:41:39 2002:

Imagine if every radio station, in order to play a song on the radio,
had to negotiate individually with each song's composer, performer and 
record label.  That's a good analogy of the legal quagmire facing
the authorized download services such as PressPlay and Musicnet
as they attempt to build up their catalog. 
 
(Imagine if the representatives of the composers could not be bothered
to answer the inquiries because there wasn't much money in it!)
 
Grab this *excellent* NYTimes article before it disappears into the
pay archives early next week:
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/23/technology/23MUSI.html

-------

*This* NYTimes article, on the other hand, strikes me as just a lot of 
wishful thinking from the music industry, which believes that its 
legal actions, and its shadowy war to degrade the usefulness of P2P 
networks, are leading vaguely-charactized "early adopters" to give up
on the file sharing networks and switch to the for-pay systems.

Little of this matches the gossip I hear from file sharing users,
although almost all of them do mourn the loss of Napster's comprehensive
selection, probably the greatest library of music which will ever be 
assembled.
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/25/arts/music/25DOWN.html
"Online Fans Start To Pay The Piper"


#7 of 160 by krj on Fri Sep 27 21:48:38 2002:

Website for the music industry's anti-downloading campaign:
   http://www.musicunited.org
 
Quote:  "Our goal isn't to lecture anyone."

----------

News reports are everywhere about Congressional hearings on the 
Berman-Coble bill.  This proposed law in the House of Representatives
would authorize the copyright industry to take direct, summary action
against computers which they believe are sharing copyrighted stuff.

Lawmakers seem concerned about giving this much power to corporations
without any due process for the targets.  The story of an attempt to 
force a UUnet user offline for the offense of posting a Harry Potter
book report turned up in a couple of stories.

Buried in the Wired discussion was this nice link from a source
I have not seen before, giving an overall summary:
   http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,558966,00.asp

Declan McCullogh for Cnet is here:
   http://news.com.com/2100-1023-959774.html

The proposed bill is here:
   http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:h.r.05211:

Text:
  (a) IN GENERAL- Notwithstanding any State or Federal 
     statute or other law, and subject to the limitations set
     forth in subsections (b) and (c), a copyright owner shall 
     not be liable in any criminal or civil action for disabling,
     interfering with, blocking, diverting, or otherwise impairing 
     the unauthorized distribution, display, performance, or
     reproduction of his or her copyrighted work on a publicly 
     accessible peer-to-peer file trading network, if such
     impairment does not, without authorization, alter, delete, 
     or otherwise impair the integrity of any computer file or
     data residing on the computer of a file trader.



#8 of 160 by dbratman on Fri Sep 27 22:47:55 2002:

"Imagine if every radio station, in order to play a song on the radio,
had to negotiate individually with each song's composer, performer and 
record label.  That's a good analogy of the legal quagmire facing
the authorized download services such as PressPlay and Musicnet
as they attempt to build up their catalog."

What do you mean, "imagine"?  That once was the case!  That's the 
problem that ASCAP and BMI were invented to solve.  Which suggests that 
the solution for the PressPlay and Musicnet problem is ... do I have to 
say it?


#9 of 160 by krj on Sat Sep 28 00:49:40 2002:

ASCAP and BMI only work because of the underlying Federal legislation
setting mechanical royalties.  Congress so far shows no willingness 
to force such a compromise on the factions of the music business; 
meanwhile each faction is determined that its piece of the pie should
optimally increase, and at all costs must not decrease, in the new 
digital music era.


#10 of 160 by pvn on Sun Sep 29 07:43:32 2002:

There is currently no digitally reproduced equivelent for being in
the audience in the auditorium when Pavarotti sings _Nessum Dorma_
among other things.

Assuming he shows up in the first place at all and doesn't have 
a cold.
(details)

I've never been able to do that as the only time I had tickets
was the last time organizer folk booked him before he was banned
in my small town on account of not showing up.  

Who owns music?  Did Custer when he did the last stupid thing
before he died along with the rest of his troops pay for the 
rights to play 'Garryowen'?  I think not.  

And the last of the 657th time the _Stones_ played _Sympathy for
the Devil_ live in concert was when?  Some have told me the first
time  was at Altemont but I don't buy it.  I had paid for tickets 
but my mother wouldn't let me go with Glen Jensen who is in the film
of the events and that was too cruel.

The point being that the actual physical performance of an artist is
impossible to properly reproduce and that any second generation
or further reproductions are merely that.  Thus any 'bootleg'
recordings are exactly that and even the exact duplication of
a legal recording is still nothing less than a simulation by
definition and practicality.  (To be fair a CD impression from
a master is still nothing but an imitation.)

Therefore, if you attain the written score to _Handel's Messiah_
you must abide by any contractural relationship not to further
reproduce it.  But if you merely record it and reproduce it 
you should be free and clear. Given you cannot advertise 'as
performed by' so and so under probable trademark restrictions.




#11 of 160 by mcnally on Sun Sep 29 08:45:46 2002:

  Positing an infinite number of parallel universes, theoretically
  there must be a number of them where beady serves on the Supreme
  Court and his legal theories are respected.  Think how bizarre
  that would be..


#12 of 160 by jmsaul on Sun Sep 29 14:06:19 2002:

Law School would have been a lot more fun.


#13 of 160 by krj on Sun Sep 29 17:33:47 2002:

I haven't seen any TV ads from MusicUnited yet -- this is the music
industry group which is sponsoring musicians 
trying to make people feel bad about downloading 
music from the Internet.  What I have seen, quite a few times, is a new
Intel ad showing young people making home-made CDs and passing them 
around with their friends.   Gee, that looks like fun.   
I think I'll go buy an Intel computer.   (*coff, coff*)
 
-----

EFF points to this item from eetimes.com, a trade journal for 
electronic engineers, about Hollywood's "hysteria" over "the analog hole."
 
If I am reading things correctly, there are proposals for legal 
restrictions to severely restrict the interoperability of 
digital and analog TV equipment.
Also much talk about analog-domain watermarks, and about getting 
legislative control over analog/digital converters.
 
http://www.eetimes.com/issue/fp/OEG20020920S0062

-----

You might recall Courtney Love's suit against her record label
Universal, which was supposed to blow apart the industry or something 
like that.  As is typical with such suits, it looks like the label is
going to pay millions rather than defend their business in court.
 
Billboard reports that the outline of a settlement is done:  Love
gets released from her contract, and gets millions in advance payments
on future Nirvana royalties in her role as Kurt Cobain's heir.

http://www.billboard.com/billboard/daily/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id
=1720037



#14 of 160 by gelinas on Sun Sep 29 18:29:32 2002:

The most recent PC Magazine to hit my mailbox has John Dvorak's column "A Buck
Forty or Die", on the appropriate price ($1.40) for a CD.  The law may say
one thing, but what the people do will be quite another.


#15 of 160 by krj on Mon Sep 30 00:21:42 2002:

Thanks for the reference, Joe!  I found that Dvorak column online at:
  http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,543415,00.asp


#16 of 160 by dbratman on Mon Sep 30 21:18:21 2002:

I own too many free samplers, or $2 samplers, to fall for any nonsense 
about production/distribution costs for CDs.  Yes, they're loss 
leaders.  But not that much of a loss.

Dvorak is right on.  "Why would you buy one for [more money]?  Because 
you had a moral obligation? ... Where is the morality in keeping the 
price jacked up?"


#17 of 160 by remmers on Mon Sep 30 21:56:18 2002:

Indeed.  Nice column.


#18 of 160 by mcnally on Mon Sep 30 22:26:34 2002:

  Hmmm..   I didn't find it all that compelling.  It sounds great for the
  consumer side but doesnt offer much reason for the record companies to
  switch (apart from "do as I say, or you are doomed!  doomed!")

  Essentially he seems to be arguing in favor of them giving themselves a
  90% pay cut.  It *may* be the case that the market will eventually force
  this, though I'm highly skeptical when the market is tilted so dramatically
  in their favor currently, but until that comes about what's supposed to
  be the record companies' motivation to compromise?


#19 of 160 by gelinas on Mon Sep 30 22:49:02 2002:

The fact that they really can't put ALL of us in jail?  And nothing less will
stop the sharing of music?

Don't look at it as a "90% pay cut"; look at it as a 1000% raise: from $0.00
to $1.40.


#20 of 160 by mcnally on Mon Sep 30 23:37:56 2002:

  re #19:  

  >  And nothing less will stop the sharing of music?

  That's where I disagree with you..  

  ..to a point, anyway.  I believe your statement to be literally
  true to the extent that (practically) nothing will ever stop trading
  completely, but they don't have to stop it completely to make their
  business model work again..  heck, it seems to be more or less working
  even *now* -- people are still paying $15-$20 per CD and if the labels
  didn't keep making bafflingly bad assumptions about the bankability of
  aging pop stars they'd be making a profit even now.  They mostly just
  need to keep sharing from growing further.  Over the last few years it
  seems like they've done a surprisingly good job of keeping runaway
  file-trading growth in check, even if they haven't been able to stop
  it completely.


#21 of 160 by gull on Tue Oct 1 13:54:04 2002:

Re #18: Something has to give, though.  By the record companies' own
figures, demand has been dropping for years now.  But the price has remained
constant.  Are they the magical industry that's immune to basic market
economics?


#22 of 160 by polygon on Tue Oct 1 16:36:03 2002:

I don't use Napster or download mp3s, but it has been years since I bought
a new music CD for myself (other than at a concert from the artist
directly).  $18 still gives me severe sticker shock, and at that price,
I'm not in the market.

CDs don't have to go all the way down to $1.40 to attract me back.
Less than $5 would probably do it.  I could easily spend quite a lot at
prices like that.


#23 of 160 by gull on Tue Oct 1 16:41:09 2002:

$10 is about the break point for me.  I'm much quicker to buy a CD that
costs under $10.  One that costs $18 I really think hard about, and usually
don't buy.


#24 of 160 by slynne on Tue Oct 1 18:08:55 2002:

$18 is too much for me too. If I didnt have my discount at Borders, I 
wouldnt really buy cd's. Luckily, that $18 cd costs me $12 which makes 
sense to me. If I had to pay $18, I might buy a cd now and then but I 
would buy fewer and would be more motivated to buy used cd's. 


#25 of 160 by aruba on Tue Oct 1 19:25:57 2002:

I agree with gull - $10 is about the right price that I might take a chance
once in a while.  More than that and I only want to buy something if it's a
sure thing, which not many things are.


#26 of 160 by gull on Tue Oct 1 20:28:59 2002:

If I'm teetering about buying a disc I sometimes grab a few tracks from my
current favorite file sharing program and see if I like them.  Generally if
I like two or three tracks from a disc I'll like the rest of it, and it's
worth buying.


#27 of 160 by anderyn on Tue Oct 1 23:14:49 2002:

I don't usually buy discs at $18, well, okay, imports don't count. :-) But
I haven't bought an import in several months (possibly over a year).There are
bands that I buy automatically , as soon as I know they have an album out
(Oysterband, Dougie MacLean, Garnet Rogers, Mustard's Retreat, possibly
Steeleye Span and Fairport Convention..., Tannahill Weavers, BattleField Band,
Julie/Buddy Miller... and of course James Keelaghan) but that list is not
terribly long. Most of my new music these days is either given to me by
friends or sent to me for review purposes. I have a secondary list of people
whose music I will buy if I think it's cool, which is pretty long, but they
aren't auto-buys, and I don't buy them at full record-company prices. I will
shop around and try to find them at Best Buy or whatever. Not that my personal
list of musicians is really usually available there, but one can always
*look*. I find that the prices charged for CDs makes me much more wary of
buying anyone not on my autobuy or secondary list, simply because I don't like
getting a pig in a poke. (Similarly to my book-buying habits -- if it's not
paper back or an autobuy author, or look so really exceedingly fantastic that
I cant' resist it, I am not spending $30 on a hardcover.)


#28 of 160 by jaklumen on Wed Oct 2 04:51:30 2002:

Used CDs are cool.  And I don't care about not being hip 'n with it, 
either.  (Does that mean I'm getting old, or still that my tastes run a 
little slow and eclectic?)


#29 of 160 by krj on Wed Oct 2 05:03:48 2002:

Via Slashdot & USA Today:  The five major record companies and three large
retailers have agreed to pay $67 million and distribute $75 million
worth of CDs to "public and non-profit groups" to settle the 
price fixing suit brought by several states.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-09-30-cd-settlement_x.htm

This case involved the MAP policy (Minimum Advertised Price), which 
was an attempt to prop up CD specialty retailers who are trying to hang
on against big box stores using CDs as loss leaders.
 
Quote:

>  The companies have not practice the pricing agreement since 2000.
>  At that time, they agreed in settling a complaint by the Federal 
>  Trade Commission that they would refrain from MAP pricing for 
>  seven years.
>
>  Former FTC chairman Robert Pitofsky said at the time 
>  that consumers had been overcharged by $480 million since 1987 
>  and that CD prices would soon drop by as much as $5 a CD as a result.

((Huh?  There was no such price drop.))

The companies admitted no wrongdoing in the settlement and in another 
news story, sources indicated the companies were glad to make the case
go away for so little money.  Supposedly that $67 million is going 
to be returned to customers.  Yeah, we all saved all our CD purchase
receipts from the last five years....


#30 of 160 by mcnally on Wed Oct 2 05:47:59 2002:

  I can't find it now, but at least one article I read on the settlement
  reported that the $75 million worth of CDs supposed to be donated to
  educational and non-profit groups would be if you calculated by full
  retail price -- i.e. about $15/CD average.  So really, if you figure
  it'll maybe cost them a dollar per donated CD (probably less, because
  I'm sure they'll find some way to charge it back as a promotional
  expense to the artists whose discs they're giving away) that $75M
  becomes a lot more like $5M, nearly halving the total cost of the 
  "$140 million dollar" settlement in real-world dollar terms..


#31 of 160 by mdw on Wed Oct 2 08:11:32 2002:

I can't see any reason why CD's should cost more than paperback books.
The "raw" cost of the CD proper is probably pennies.  It's certainly
less than $.20.  It's obvious that mass produced CD's are essentially
"free" - how otherwise to explain the drove of CD's companies such as
AOL have delivered to every american household with a postal address.
Clearly a naked CD is cheap enough to be a cereal box giveaway.  The
jewel case & artwork of a commercial CD may have cost more than the
actual CD.  The royalty due to the artist under most current contracts
is clearly not much more.  A few exceptional performers may actually get
rich, but they are just that--exceptions.

Most of the cost of a CD in a store should be the cost of distribution
and marketing.  That is not unreasonable; we pay similar fees for food
in stores with no qualms, and welcome being able to get tomatoes grown
in California in winter without the necessity of a plane trip to
negotiate with a farmer for purchase and transportation of fruit on an
individual basis.  The real question is what is actually a reasonable
fee for having a CD in a store?  In the paperback market, when you buy a
paperback, you aren't actually purchasing just one book, but several --
the ones you didn't buy are the ones that get pulped (curtesy of the
"magazine" model having overtaken the book industry in the 70's), so in
essence you are buying at least $1-$2 worth of paper -- and they still
manage to make a profit at "only" $6.95.

Another completely independent way of coming up with roughly the same
figure is to look at the cost of "naked" software bought in Taiwan.  In
this market, untrammelled by any real copyright restrictions, you can
purchase virtually any software title you please for only $5.  You
aren't paying anything to microsoft, so the costs you pay are 100%
production and distribution.  The major risk (ie, additional cost to you
the consumer) is that the police might stage a raid and seize some
product, but this is low because they usually telephone ahead and warn
the vendors.  $5 is close enough to the going rate for paperback books
that I think this is pretty obviously the "right" price.  If anything,
this is generous, perhaps the price should be lower.

So this $18 / CD is clearly a ripoff.  I found it annoying that in this
recent agreement in which the record companies and distributers did not
admit they had been practicing price fixing, that the corrective actions
agreed to did not include lower prices.  Apparently nobody representing
the real injured party, the american consumer, was properly represented
in court.


#32 of 160 by scott on Wed Oct 2 13:29:22 2002:

A welcome bit of humor:
http://theonion.org/onion3836/riaa_sues_radio_stations.html


#33 of 160 by jazz on Wed Oct 2 13:39:13 2002:

        I'm not clear on how record companies set the price on CDs, and how
they've managed to maintain such a consistent price range of $16-18 even in
the case of artists recording on a label that they control (Ani DiFranco on
Righteous Babe or the Toasters on Moon Ska, for instance).  Does anyone have
a good idea on how this is done?


#34 of 160 by mcnally on Wed Oct 2 17:54:33 2002:

  Because they control not only most of the means of production but,
  for practical purposes, completely control the channels of music
  distribution, too.


#35 of 160 by krj on Wed Oct 2 20:07:36 2002:

Remember DataPlay, the new quarter-sized format which resists user
copying?  The music industry said they loved it, but apparently it 
wasn't loved enough: the DataPlay company has shut down while it tries
to come up with a few million dollars in additional funding.
They're broke for now.
 
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-960514.html?tag=fd_top


#36 of 160 by dbratman on Thu Oct 3 03:38:34 2002:

resp:31 which said "Most of the cost of a CD in a store should be the 
cost of distribution and marketing.  That is not unreasonable; we pay 
similar fees for food in stores with no qualms, and welcome being able 
to get tomatoes grown in California in winter without the necessity of 
a plane trip to negotiate with a farmer for purchase and transportation 
of fruit on an individual basis."

Be careful: sometimes even that cost of distribution and marketing is 
too much.  I've bought California produce in both California and the 
Midwest, and I regret to say that far too often, what Midwest consumers 
are buying, when they choose to pay extra money for California produce 
over local hothouse product - or even canned - is the 
word "California".  By the time it gets to the Midwest, it's usually 
lost too much freshness.

Not sure how this relates to CDs, which aren't perishable in that way, 
except that I cherish CDs I've bought at artists' concerts more than 
some of those I've bought in big stores - for the memory of buying them 
as well as for the knowledge that the money went to the artist, who 
deserves it.


#37 of 160 by janc on Thu Oct 3 12:10:39 2002:

Um, I've never assumed the word "California" is any kind of promise of
freshness, just a vaguely interesting hint of where the food came from.
I wouldn't pay extra for it.  Local produce *might* be fresher (or it
might not).  Mostly I judge quality by the store.  Some clearly seem
better at getting fresh produce on their shelves than others.


#38 of 160 by mdw on Thu Oct 3 17:41:07 2002:

Many of my CDs are filk music.  This is not mainstream major record
label stuff, but a mix of amateurs and some niche professionals.  The
distribution channel is also a lot different -- generally this consists
of "hucksters" who come to SF conventions, and sell CD's made or at
least distributed by a variety of very small production houses.

These *should* be a lot more expensive than mass produced music;
smaller volume, more labour intensive distribution, etc.
Yet I think I've paid more like $13 on average for most of mine.


#39 of 160 by anderyn on Thu Oct 3 19:39:38 2002:

Hmmm. Most of the ones I have cost between $15 and $18 (the filk cds). Most
of them in recent years have cost $17 or $18, but since it's such a small
print-run (the last time I checked, a small print run CD for an independent
band was around $10/cd (friend's band made just enough CDs to pass out demos
and to sell to friends, that was the absolute rock bottom price for such a
small run) so I don't mind covering that cost AND giving some cash to the
artist) I figured that those costs were kosher.


#40 of 160 by dbratman on Fri Oct 4 00:14:25 2002:

I was in the filk recording manufacture & distribution business, once 
upon a very long time ago.  We had no business model or planning 
budget.  We set our prices by seeing what equivalent material in record 
stores cost, and figuring, "Well, that must be about right."

Clearly, we were complete wankers.  I doubt the wankiness quotient in 
filking has dropped much since then.


#41 of 160 by gull on Fri Oct 4 13:39:46 2002:

Rep. Boucher has introduced a bill called the "Digital Media Consumers'
Rights Act of 2002".  The full text of the bill is here:

http://www.house.gov/boucher/docs/BOUCHE_025.pdf

Most of it deals with requiring labelling of copy-protected CDs, but section
5 is the part that interests me:

---

SEC. 5 FAIR USE AMENDMENTS

        (a) Scientific Research -- Subsections (a)(2)(A) and (b)(1)(A) of
section 1201 of title 17, United States Code, are each amended by inserting
after "title" in subsection (a)(2)(A) and after "thereof" in subsection
(b)(1)(A) the following: "unless the person is acting solely in furtherance
of scientific research into technological protection measures".
        (b) Fair Use Restoration -- Section 1201(c) of title 17, United
States Code, is amended --
                (1) in paragraph (1), by inserting before the period at the
end the following: "and it is not a violation of this section to circumvent
a technological measure in connection with access to, or the use of, a work
if such circumvention does not result in an infringement of the copyright in
the work"; and
                (2) by adding at the end the following new paragraph:
"(5) It shall not be a violation of this title to manufacture, distribute,
or make noninfringing use of a hardware or software product capable of
enabling significant noninfringing use of a copyrighted work.".

---

So in other words, this would prevent the DMCA from being used to prosecute
people for fair use of copy-protected material.  This bill is bound to get
heavy opposition from the RIAA and other powerful industry groups.  It needs
your support.  Write your representative.


#42 of 160 by gull on Fri Oct 4 15:03:34 2002:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/tech/main524304.shtml

Excerpt:

The music industry goes to court Friday to try to force an Internet service
provider to identify a subscriber accused of illegally trading copyrighted
songs, setting up a legal showdown that could indelibly alter the
free-swapping culture that has been a signature of the Web's early years.

If successful, the suit against Verizon would pave the way for ailing record
companies to send out reams of cease-and-desist letters to alleged music
pirates, scaring them into submission rather than going through the long
process of suing each one in court.

Verizon general counsel Sarah Deutsch said a record industry victory would
harm the privacy rights of Verizon subscribers and force Internet providers
to give up the names of its customers without judicial review.


#43 of 160 by tpryan on Fri Oct 4 23:44:53 2002:

        We are lucky to see a filk CD for $15 on a dealers table.  Most
are sold at full "list" of $17 or $18.  Ask Juanita Coulson if she
offers a discount for buying a large amount (like 4 for $60 instead
of $66 or $70).  Roper does not talk discount no matter how many you
buy at one time, so might as well only buy one or two and wait on
the reaction the ones you just don't know about.
        However, Roper's stock of 'Divine Intervention' CD by Julia
Ecklar (now digitally remastered, restored, etc) should sell out
on Friday night of ConFusion at $18.  Prometheous music reports that
only packaging work remains (new artwork for the CD).  They woudl be
luck to have stock for OVFF November 1st.
        Some filk artists will sell their CDs direct at a concert
for $15, but have learned not to uncut the dealers at a con.
        Meanwhile, the funnymusicians including Power Salad, Throwing
Toasters, Luke Ski, Tony Goldmark have put out full length CDs at 
$10 or $12.  They want product in people's hands more than they want
to make money.  They also don't seem to be paying themselves
royalties.  They should be priced more like $12 and $15.  Shows
me that a filk CD need not be more than $15 on a dealers table.  The
same would apply, for me, to other artists who have 1000-3000 unit
runs of their CD made.  And I have a lot of those 'small run' CDs
in my collection.


#44 of 160 by krj on Sun Oct 6 15:48:51 2002:

Wired refers to the Register:
 
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/27440.html
"Music biz strikes back with free, DRM 'padlocked' downloads"
 
Peter Gabriel's distribution company OD2 arranged for several 
days of free downloading of tracks encoded with Microsoft's
Digital Rights stuff, presumably to get consumers used to the idea.
The event seems to have been successful, since the OD2 servers were 
swamped.  This was intended to be a UK-only offering.


#45 of 160 by krj on Wed Oct 9 23:47:28 2002:

The Supreme Court heard oral arguments in the Eldred case today.
Links to early reports can be found on Slashdot.org; the best
summary I have seen says that the plaintiffs' side, the 
Forces of Truth and Justice :), did not appear to do well.


#46 of 160 by krj on Thu Oct 10 02:13:36 2002:

The dead-tree edition of Billboard contains a story about the crash
in the business of selling recorded dance music.  A variety of statistics
point to sales in the dance genre plunging between 50-80% in the 
last few years, far worse than the 15-20% decline of the music business 
as a whole.   Dance music retailers are going out of business in 
substantial numbers.  Music business people complain about MP3s 
being increasingly used by DJs; new electronics allow DJs to 
do the scratching thing with MP3s instead of vinyl.
DJs and fans complain that the record companies charge too much 
for vinyl singles ($12?) and take too long in getting hot product 
to market.

Billboard doesn't usually put the discouraging business reports on 
their web site, so you'll probably have to browse the paper version at a 
newsstand or buy a copy.


#47 of 160 by mdw on Thu Oct 10 04:35:03 2002:

Do people listen to dance music anywhere near as much as they used to?
It seems to me the market may be more a victim of changing taste than
anything else.


#48 of 160 by gull on Thu Oct 10 13:04:24 2002:

Re #45: Yeah...one sticking point seems to be that under the plaintiffs'
arguments, the copyright act of 1976 should be unconstitutional, too. 
As one of the justices put it, declaring that act unconstitutional now
would cause "chaos".

I can sort of see both sides of this.  On the one hand, the Constitution
only says that copyright should be for a "limited" time.  Under current
law, the term of a copyright *is* limited.  The problem is every time
certain works get close to that limit, Congress extends it again, so it
ends up effectively being unlimited.


#49 of 160 by russ on Fri Oct 11 00:12:25 2002:

Re #47:  I doubt that the general public bought dance singles, if
they were running $12 each.  That would make them a specialty item,
and if the specialists change their technology to something else
you would expect sales to collapse.

(Serves the record companies right for being late with a horribly
overpriced product, too.  Hmmm, sounds almost like a list-price CD...)


#50 of 160 by gull on Fri Oct 11 15:20:31 2002:

The Register has an article here about the Supreme Court challenge of the
"Mickey Mouse" copyright extension law of 1998.

http://www.theregus.com/content/6/26598.html

It goes into some detail about the arguments presented.  I thought the
author of the article had an interesting point here, though:

"Actually, the Mickey Act provides a positive financial incentive for authors
and publishers to keep works in print longer by virtue of its retroactive
term extensions. It's hard to make money off a printed work that's in the
public domain unless it's required reading at uni (e.g., Shakespeare, Donne,
Fielding, etc.) or immensely popular (e.g., the Bible). If works pass sooner
into the public domain, less popular and lesser-known ones might end up
available only on the Internet, and that would be a slap in the face to the
billions of people who either prefer to curl up with a real book (like me)
or have no computers or Internet access."



#51 of 160 by mcnally on Fri Oct 11 15:43:08 2002:

  Actually, I think that's a totally bogus argument and I believe it's
  got things almost exactly backwards..

  To begin with, the issue isn't whether works will pass "sooner" into the
  public domain but whether they will *ever* do so or whether existing
  copyrights will essentially be extended forever, twenty years at a time.
  Additionally, the extensions cover far more than just books -- they also
  cover film, music, visual artwork, and much more.  And finally, less
  popular and lesser-known books written seventy-some years ago (which
  is the time period we're talking about) simply aren't available to
  "curl up" with -- they're long out of print and there's nowhere you
  can count on getting a copy.

  If a work is still popular after seventy years there'll be someone 
  fulfilling the market demand for it in any case and it will be cheaper
  and other artists will be free to make derivative works if it has passed
  into the public domain.  If it's not popular enough to be money-making,
  passing into the public domain, where it can be distributed almost without
  cost, is the best hope a work has of reaching people who might appreciate
  it.


#52 of 160 by orinoco on Fri Oct 11 19:14:52 2002:

<nods>  There's a lot of old books I'd never have read if it weren't for the
cheapass Dover editions.  


#53 of 160 by gull on Fri Oct 11 19:18:48 2002:

I agree that that's a problem.  I have a lot of out of print material that's
no longer available from any commercial source but is still illegal for me
to duplicate.

I think the argument's relevent, though, because the MPAA has been giving a
version of it.  They asked whether anyone would have gone to the trouble of
restoring and re-releasing _Citizen Kane_ if it had been in the public
domain.  That's a good question; there are a fair number of early cartoons
and such that actually are public domain, and you don't often see copies of
them for sale.  Commercially anything public domain seems to be considered a
dead end, fit only for the dumpster.

That aside, I'd like to see the Supreme Court declare the 1988 law
unconstitutional but I don't think they will.  I think it'd be a bit of a
stretch, because the term *is* still limited, the limit is just longer than
most of us would like.  It's hard to say exactly what *would* violate the
wording of the Constitution except for a law that explicitly declared a
perpeptual copyright.


#54 of 160 by orinoco on Fri Oct 11 19:28:18 2002:

I imagine movies may be a little different.  Isn't film harder to duplicate
than other media?


#55 of 160 by mcnally on Fri Oct 11 23:12:19 2002:

  About ten or fifteen years ago, during the height of the VCR boom,
  one of the early movie studios which had become more or less defunct
  (perhaps Republic?) accidentally let the copyright on a great deal
  of material lapse because whoever owned the rights neglected to
  renew them.  All of a sudden the market was flooded with inexpensive
  reproductions of movies like "It's a Wonderful Life" and movies that
  hadn't been broadcast on television in years were rediscovered,
  while the ones that had been popular enough to still show (like "It's
  a Wonderful Life") became so commonly aired that people started to 
  make jokes about it.


#56 of 160 by russ on Sat Oct 12 02:19:58 2002:

The New York Times ran an editorial opining that the Sonny Bono
\C\o\n\s\u\m\e\r\ \E\x\t\o\r\t\i\o\n Copyright Extension Act
should be held to be unconstitutional.  I hope the Court agrees.

Re #50:  The argument that public-domain works lose all commercial
value is blatantly false on its face; just look at the great
commercial revenues reaped by Disney on Victor Hugo's works shortly
after they entered the public domain.  Of course, Disney will argue
that Steamboat Willie and the Hunchback of Notre Dame have nothing
in common.  I hope the Court is smart enough to see through that.


#57 of 160 by scott on Sat Oct 12 03:16:00 2002:

Or how Disney took public domain stories like "Snow White and the Seven
Dwarves" and made a bunch of money, but is horrified that somebody might make
some money from Disney property in public domain?


#58 of 160 by krj on Sun Oct 13 04:28:04 2002:

"Global CD Slump Accelerates"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2319209.stm

"The value of music sold dropped by 9.2% in the first half 
 of 2002, the International Federation of the Phonographic
 Industry (IFPI) has said....   The slump follows a 5%
 drop in 2001."
 
((The IFPI is the international version of the RIAA.))

A sidebar lists declines for several markets for first half 2002:
 
   US:     down  6.8%
   Japan:  down 14.2%
   UK:     down  6.2%     (UK was up about 5% last year)
   France:   up  5.2%     (!!!)
   Western Europe total:   down  7.5%
   Asia total:             down 15.6%

These are money values, not units sold.


#59 of 160 by gull on Mon Oct 14 13:06:56 2002:

The Register is reporting that HR.5469, the bill that was supposed to save
online webcasting, has been heavily amended in a backroom deal with a "cabal
of thirteen small commercial operations."  Most webcasters now feel that the
bill will merely ensure only the largest commercial webcasters survive.  It
also apparently would require, for the first time, that educational and
religious terrestrial stations (meaning regular radio stations) pay
performance royalties, though the article only mentions that in passing.

http://www.theregus.com/content/6/26615.html


#60 of 160 by polytarp on Mon Oct 14 13:55:28 2002:

This response has been erased.



#61 of 160 by mxyzptlk on Wed Oct 16 11:52:22 2002:

The Register is one small notch above the Enquirer.  If it was valid,
they probably reprinted or stole from someone else.  

Just venting...


#62 of 160 by gull on Wed Oct 16 13:34:48 2002:

Most Internet news sites just reprint stuff from other places.  My
expectations of them are pretty low -- The Register is more consistantly
accurate than Slashdot, and doesn't have the annoying comments, which is
why I started reading it.  Like Slashdot and Security Focus, I mostly
use it as a convenient overview of interesting stuff other sites are
reporting on, because I don't have time to read them all.

A couple more items that came up there recently (mxyzptlk can skip these):

More on HR.5469, including comments from some of the people involved. 
The bill is not expected to pass, due to opposition from terrestrial
broadcasters.
http://www.theregus.com/content/6/26644.html

An odd situation involving a RedHat errata and the DMCA.  The headline
doesn't really tell the story on this one -- you have to dig in to find
what's really going on:
http://www.theregus.com/content/4/26656.html
Basically, RedHat is issuing a kernel bugfix errata for a
security-related bug.  But if you're in the U.S., they can't tell you
what the bug is.  The reason is the person who discovered it is afraid
of DMCA prosecution, and has copyrighted his analysis with a license
that stipulates only non-U.S. citizens can read it.

(Okay, mxyzptlk can start reading again.)

Dimitri Skylarov, the Russian programmer prosecuted under the DMCA for
breaking Adobe's eBook cipher, is once again in kind of a bind.  He's
legally required to attend a trial in the U.S. and testify against his
employer ElcomSoft in the U.S.  But the American Embassy in Moscow has
denied him a visa.
http://www.planetpdf.com/mainpage.asp?webpageid=2400


#63 of 160 by scott on Wed Oct 16 15:19:38 2002:

The Register is a bit like Hunter S. Thompson's early 70's political writing
in Rolling Stone.  The regular publications would say "Senator X gave a speech
where he said Y", while Thompson made a point of neglecting the official
details in favor of his own personal observations, such as "A disturbingly
offbalanced Senator X was quickly hustled out to make yet another stump speech
written by his handlers, after which he was pulled out of sight and hopefully
taken to a hospital".


#64 of 160 by krj on Mon Oct 21 19:33:27 2002:

Fox News reports that Whitney Houston's new CD has leaked out on the 
net one month in advance of its official release date.  Whitney was 
paid gazillions of dollars for her new contract, and the label is 
worried the early release will damage sales.  Such early exposure
didn't hurt Wilco or Radiohead, both of whom had great sales of 
material widely distributed on the net, but maybe the market for 
critical-fave rock bands works differently than the market for 
pop/r&b divas.
 
Carlos Santana's new album has also leaked, just a week before 
official release.
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66212,00.html


#65 of 160 by krj on Tue Oct 22 04:02:25 2002:

Rolling Stone has a piece on some of the upcoming fall releases.
The article says that the labels used promtional pricing as low 
as $9/disc (where??) to boost sales.  But we should expect to 
pay about $20/disc for big name releases in the fall.
   "Label sources say that because of the industry's slump
    -- 2002 sales are off almost ten percent -- they can't 
    afford to lower prices."
 
I dunno, that just put a big smile on my face.
 
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/newsarticle.asp?nid=16879&afl=mnew


#66 of 160 by krj on Tue Oct 22 04:04:19 2002:

(Um, the labels used promotional prices this summer, I left that phrase
out.)


#67 of 160 by mdw on Tue Oct 22 04:58:05 2002:

Sounds to me like they should be anticipating more of a slump.


#68 of 160 by other on Tue Oct 22 07:46:11 2002:

It would be nice to see the RIAA's funding basis dry up like a puddle at 
nuclear ground zero.


#69 of 160 by gull on Tue Oct 22 13:04:43 2002:

I kind of wish they'd just accept the law of supply and demand as it
relates to pricing, instead of trying to prop up prices with
legislation.  I worry about the legislative damage a dying RIAA could do.


#70 of 160 by mcnally on Tue Oct 22 13:39:26 2002:

  The "law of supply and demand" is exactly their problem now that
  it's technologically trivial to make nearly limitless copies of
  the product they sell.


#71 of 160 by gull on Tue Oct 22 19:06:42 2002:

My point is that if they weren't still trying to fix the price at $16
per disc, they wouldn't be having so much trouble.  I suspect fewer
people would download music and burn it to CDs if CDs weren't so
expensive.  There's room for them to make a profit, just not the huge
profit they're used to.


#72 of 160 by anderyn on Tue Oct 22 19:30:35 2002:

I would buy a lot of CDs that I don't now if they were $15/16 a disc reliably.
That seems fair and reasonable enough to me. Cheaper would be nice, but I
would feel as if I were spending an okay amount if they were a straight $15
or $16 per.


#73 of 160 by slynne on Tue Oct 22 20:41:46 2002:

Yeah, a lot of cd's are more like $19


#74 of 160 by dbratman on Wed Oct 23 00:05:58 2002:

"because of the industry's slump ... they can't afford to lower prices."

OK, I admit I wasn't the top student in my econ class, but that's a 
direct contradiction to my limited understanding of the law of supply 
and demand.


#75 of 160 by other on Wed Oct 23 02:02:49 2002:

It depends on the false assumptions they bring to plan.


#76 of 160 by polygon on Wed Oct 23 04:58:14 2002:

They think of themselves as being like the health care industry.  They
have a monopoly on music, so that supply and demand stuff doesn't apply.


#77 of 160 by jazz on Wed Oct 23 13:25:16 2002:

        I particularly love how the RIAA tries to make it look like Napster
has hurt their business to the point to which they have to take drastic
measures, but every indicator I've seen, including their yearly profit, says
otherwise.


#78 of 160 by gull on Wed Oct 23 15:11:51 2002:

Interesting how the decline started *before* Napster was released, too,
isn't it?  Apparently it not only allows people to share files, it can
go back in time, too.


#79 of 160 by scott on Wed Oct 23 15:47:22 2002:

Harrumph.  Those people were holding off buying CDs, waiting for Napster.

Well, I couldn't find it, but I read an item recently claiming the whole RIAA
"piracy" fight was really intended to stifle small competitors, especially
in Web radio.


#80 of 160 by gull on Wed Oct 23 16:00:41 2002:

I'm a bit puzzled by the RIAA's contention that web radio is different
then terrestrial radio because it allows "perfect digital copies." 
Whoever wrote that has never listened to a 32 kbps RealAudio stream.


#81 of 160 by jazz on Wed Oct 23 16:20:46 2002:

        That's something that's true at the moment, but five or ten years from
now, you may well have realtime access to 144 or 192kbps mp3 quality audio
streams in realtime to the average American user.


#82 of 160 by gull on Wed Oct 23 18:09:28 2002:

No MP3 stream is a "perfect digital copy", though.  It's lossy.


#83 of 160 by keesan on Wed Oct 23 18:22:05 2002:

I hope 32K sounds a lot better than the 16 20 and 24K I have been hearing
(which is still less hissy than the mono broadcast radio I listen to since
there are no longer any local classical stations).  I have seen 128K stations
listed already.


#84 of 160 by jazz on Wed Oct 23 18:39:57 2002:

        MP3 streams are lossy compression, but considering that (a) it's
usually "good enough" for most listeners, and that (b) a MP3 stream from a
MP3 source is a perfect digital copy ...


#85 of 160 by krj on Wed Oct 23 18:52:15 2002:

(I had a response lost by a connection lockup which was going to say
essentially what jazz did in resp:81 :: we assume that the bandwidth 
available to home users is only going to get better, and the sound 
quality of Internet radio will only get better.   So it's not irrational 
for the music business to be planning for this future in which 
digital streams are close enough to CD quality for most people; we've 
already seen that a tremendous number of people find MP3 files 
"good enough.")
 
The essay Scott mentions in resp:79 is most likely titled 
"Raising the barriers to entry" and it's at:
  http://www.mp3newswire.net/stories/2002/raising.html


#86 of 160 by russ on Thu Oct 24 23:04:44 2002:

Re #81:  What gull said.  That's no excuse for writing a law which treats
a stream which is degraded far worse than a cassette recording of an FM
broadcast the same as the .WAV file straight off the CD.  If you're
going to argue that "perfect copies" are the problem, then you shouldn't
be applying the same law to grossly imperfect copies.

Of course, this law is more about restraint of competition for listeners
and attempting to dictate musical tastes than "piracy".  That's why it's
important to puncture the falsehoods around the RIAA's case.

Re #85:  Then perhaps a rational law would allow no-royalty broadcasting
above a certain rate of distortion.  That would allow small webcasters
to get started on the cheap, and work their way up to high-quality streams
as the revenue appears to pay for it.


#87 of 160 by tpryan on Tue Oct 29 22:13:47 2002:

        If an internet radio site has a maximum of say, 128 listeners,
it is negligeble to a small FM station that usually reach 12,800 listeners
(small town) or or 128,000.  What are the royality/air-play rates those
stations pay?


#88 of 160 by gull on Wed Oct 30 00:33:43 2002:

Radio stations only pay songwriter royalties, not the record company
royalties that are being proposed for Internet stations.


#89 of 160 by krj on Thu Nov 7 06:57:43 2002:

Assorted sales news:  A story reports that online sales of CDs 
have taken a sharp nosedive this year, down 25% from last year, 
which is much sharper than sales overall.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021104/ap_on_hi_te/onli
ne_music_sales_1
 (note the URL wrapped)
 
Meanwhile, USA Today reports that while overall CD sales are down 
over 10% this year, country music sales are *up* 5%.    
This correlates with sales being up at Wal-Mart and other 
"rack accounts;" such retailers sell about half of the 
country sales.  

Is this the effect described by Moby: would country music fans
be less computer-literate than rock and rap fans?
Or is this evidence that what's going on is a huge shift in 
public tastes?
 
http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/2002-11-06-cover-country_x.htm


#90 of 160 by tpryan on Thu Nov 7 23:16:11 2002:

        The overall quality of country artist's CDs could be getting
better.  In other words, more satisfaction with the whole CD package
instead of buying the album for the one or two tunes you like.
        While the overall audience for country music might be
remaining stable, there may be a change in that new audience
members are more likely to buy CDs  ?Converts from pop buying
habits?


#91 of 160 by anderyn on Fri Nov 8 14:31:26 2002:

I know that I've actually gone out and bought at least three country
albums in the last year or two. That's a big jump up from zero, which is
what it had bee n for many years.


#92 of 160 by gull on Mon Nov 11 15:05:55 2002:

This guy is going to get clobbered.  I wish him well, but he has about
the same chances as a goldfish in a blender:

http://online.securityfocus.com/news/1608


#93 of 160 by other on Mon Nov 11 22:53:29 2002:

Gotta give him credit for chutzpah.


#94 of 160 by krj on Wed Nov 13 19:52:41 2002:

The Register had a story on this about a week ago which seemed a little
sketchy.  However, the website listed below appears to be official, 
unless it's a well-crafted hoax using BMG trademarks.
BMG is announcing its plans to copy-prevent all its CDs in Europe.

http://www.bmg-copycontrol.info
 
The Register also had a second story about EMI making similar moves.
If The Register was right on the BMG story, odds are good they're 
right on the EMI one as well.


#95 of 160 by jmsaul on Thu Nov 14 01:18:32 2002:

What a great strategy.  That'll certainly increase CD sales.

Huh?


#96 of 160 by jazz on Thu Nov 14 14:21:16 2002:

        Isn't BMG's initiative related to Cactus, which has already been
compromised?


#97 of 160 by krj on Sat Nov 16 06:53:56 2002:

It seems that Roxio, the CD burner software maker, is going to buy
the assets of Napster for $5 million.  As I expected, this is 
substantially less than the $8 million offered by BMG; the bankruptcy
court was convinced to rule that the BMG offer was a sweetheart
deal which wasn't maximizing value for the creditors. 

(I argue that the record companies, which made this argument in their
role as holders of damage awards against Napster, didn't care that 
they were going to get less money in the bankruptcy: instead, 
the record companies were trying to screw the other creditors, 
mostly Napster's lawyers, as much as possible.  This seems to me to 
be a serious perversion of the bankruptcy laws; the rejection of
the BMG offer by the court was supposed to lead to *better* offers.)  

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-965960.html?tag=lh
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/23/28126.html

-----

Followup on resp:89, on the report of a study claiming a sharp decline
in the Internet CD ordering business.  The first reports claimed 
a 25% decline in sales for the first three quarters of 2002, relative
to the same period in 2001.  The NY Times had a story which was even
more alarmist: a 39% decline for the third quarter, relative to 
2001, and the base period in 2001 includes the weeks after the 
September 11 attacks, when US entertainment spending dried up 
for a few weeks.

But the bottom of the Times report was taken up with reports by Amazon, the 
dominant  online CD retailer, and from CD Universe (#5 in the field, I think)
saying that their sales were doing just fine.  This doesn't make sense:
if sales are down 25-39%, we should see online retailers folding; 
we shouldn't see reports of sales holding steady.

So I'm suspecting the study reporting such a sharp sales decline online
is bogus.


#98 of 160 by orinoco on Sat Nov 16 16:26:52 2002:

(It could be that the decline is killing off the small retailers, and big
names like Amazon are hanging on okay.  Or, yeah, it could be that the report
is full of it.)


#99 of 160 by anderyn on Sun Nov 17 04:18:30 2002:

I dunno. I buy CDs online from small retailers more than not. But then I like
to buy odd and obscure stuff when I get music -- folk music, from other
countries, that's not available on Amazon. I haven't gotten that much bought
music this year -- and most of that has been at a brick-and-mortar store, or
from the artist directly, though. (OhMIGawd, I just figured it out. It's all
my fault! I'm the reason they think all the sales are declining! I haven't
been out there spending money on CDs so the slump is all my fault! I must go
hang my head in shame now.)


#100 of 160 by orinoco on Mon Nov 18 14:47:34 2002:

Uh, yeah, Twila.  And because of you, the Terrorists Have Already Won. ;)


#101 of 160 by gull on Mon Nov 18 15:33:24 2002:

I rarely buy new CDs from "brick and mortar" stores, these days.  They
rarely seem to have what I want in stock, and if I have to special-order
I might as well cut out the middle man and go straight to Amazon or
CDNOW.  When I go to a record store these days, it's usually to buy used
CDs.


#102 of 160 by scott on Mon Nov 18 16:48:20 2002:

Actually I've bought a few LPs from the ReUse Center ($1 each, which is high
by garage-sale standards) and found some pretty cool music - Burt Bachrach
Plays His Hits, Perspectives in Percussion vol 2 (one of those cool records
they made to push stereo hi-fi).
</keesan>


#103 of 160 by polytarp on Mon Nov 18 20:20:13 2002:

gulag


#104 of 160 by keesan on Mon Nov 18 20:43:22 2002:

Keesan buys her LPs by the bagful from the library booksale at about 10 cents
each at the winter and spring clearout sales, but I think they are normally
50 cents each and they have a large selection.


#105 of 160 by anderyn on Mon Nov 18 21:13:33 2002:

I don't buy lps, although I do own quite a few. I also don't buy cassettes
any more, although I do have several machines that can and do play them. I
have probably several hundred of each in the house, and then there are the
CDs. I don't think I actually *need* to get any more music, but I certainly
want to get more!


#106 of 160 by gull on Tue Nov 19 14:37:51 2002:

I've occasionally bought LPs, mostly of albums that are out of print and
hence aren't available on CD.  I burn my own CDs of the music, after
recording it to my computer and doing normalization and noise reduction.
 The results aren't as "clean" as a modern CD, but they generally sound
as good or better than the LP and I don't have to worry about wearing it
out.


#107 of 160 by krj on Fri Nov 22 19:44:04 2002:

Cnet reports that RIAA is seeking contempt sanctions against the file
trading service Madster, the former Aimster, for failing to shut down
the trading of copyrighted files in compliance with a preliminary 
injunction.    The owner of Madster was claiming,
IIRC (it's not in this story) that the system was so decentralized
that it could not be shut off.  I don't know the details of its architecture;
somehow it is piggybacked on AOL Instant Messenger.

More file trading court dates coming up in the next two weeks.

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-966800.html?tag=lh


#108 of 160 by hera on Sun Nov 24 07:49:14 2002:

Napster? Does anyone even talk about napster anymore? It's November 2002,
people: get with the times!!


#109 of 160 by janc on Sun Nov 24 13:04:13 2002:

Having a hard time reading past the title?


#110 of 160 by gull on Thu Dec 5 14:51:37 2002:

The bargain-hunter site FatWallet.com was given DMCA notices by WalMart,
Target, Best Buy, Staples, OfficeMax, Jo-Ann Stores, and KMart for
posting their sale prices on its site:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28223.html
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.cfm?start=0&catid=18&threadid=1
26042


FatWallet complied, but has since filed a lawsuit claiming "frivolous
copyright assertion" and demanding damages, based on their belief that
sale prices are facts and cannot by copyrighted:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28429.html

Apparently the final straw was when WalMart obtained a subpoena to try
to get FatWallet to name the person who gave them the pricing information.


#111 of 160 by slynne on Thu Dec 5 15:18:31 2002:

Couldnt someone just walk into any old WalMart store for information on 
their sale prices? It isnt like they go out of their way to keep their 
prices a secret. 


#112 of 160 by orinoco on Thu Dec 5 15:52:44 2002:

I imagine that's part of what FatWallet's claiming in their lawsuit.  Seems
like a no-brainer to me, but maybe there are, uh, subtleties that I'm missing.


#113 of 160 by mcnally on Thu Dec 5 16:42:00 2002:

  If this is the same case I heard an NPR piece on the other day, I got the
  impression that the merchants were angry because their upcoming promotions
  were being leaked and posted on the site in advance of their official
  announcements.  If that's the case, then no, the same information wouldn't
  be available to someone walking into any old WalMart store..

  It's still unclear to me that the merchants have any course of action
  against FatWallet.  Against their own employees who are leaking competitive
  information, sure, but not necessarily against the third party reporting
  that information.


#114 of 160 by other on Thu Dec 5 17:04:47 2002:

Especially since I don't think you can copyright information per se.  You 
can copyright the specific way in which it is presented, but not the 
content itself.  (Assuming the content is not in and of itself a unique 
creative product.)


#115 of 160 by mcnally on Thu Dec 5 17:31:37 2002:

  It might come under the category of "trade secret" (in fact, probably does)
  but the DMCA does not, as far as I know, protect trade secrets.


#116 of 160 by gull on Thu Dec 5 21:53:49 2002:

I know someone who was once asked to leave a store because he was
writing down prices.  I don't remember if it was WalMart or KMart.

The same guy was threatened with legal action for a web site he made
that documented Houghton gas prices for several months.  (He was
demonstrating that not only were all the gas prices in the area the
same, they remained at the same (high) level as prices fluctuated in
other nearby towns.)


#117 of 160 by dang on Thu Dec 5 22:05:42 2002:

FatWallet is now countersuing under the DMCA.  (It inlcudes a clause
saying it can't be used for spurious/harassing claims)


#118 of 160 by other on Thu Dec 5 22:42:03 2002:

re #116:  Did he take down the site or tell the fuckers that they could 
go ahead but they'd have their butts kicked all over the courtroom?


#119 of 160 by krj on Thu Dec 5 22:47:53 2002:

Another Tower Records near-death story.  They have $200 million in 
debt and $18.99 is too much to charge for stuff that Amazon sells for 
$3-4 cheaper (and Wal-Mart, and Best Buy).  Their selection is not 
saving them.  Tower is praying for big holiday season to bail them 
out, so we might watch for another story after Christmas.
 
http://www.p2pnet.net/issue05/page6.html
 
http://www.detnews.com/2002/business/0211/30/business-23788.htm
 
As mentioned in the last round of Tower-Near-Death stories, a 
failure at Tower Records would be a massive blow towards what remains
of classical CD retailing in the USA.


#120 of 160 by jmsaul on Fri Dec 6 00:00:36 2002:

Well, at the prices currently being charged for CDs, I'm not surprised.


#121 of 160 by dang on Fri Dec 6 00:26:07 2002:

resp:117 and WalMart caved in.


#122 of 160 by senna on Fri Dec 6 00:29:55 2002:

I haven't seen an operating Tower Records in a long time--are there any left
in Michigan?  Twoers that I've shopped at in Ann Arbor, East Lansing, Toronto,
and other places have all closed already.


#123 of 160 by krj on Fri Dec 6 01:41:32 2002:

Tower opened a new store in downtown Birmingham maybe a year? ago.
Leslie and I were there briefly last month; we were pressed 
for time and I could not check it out in detail, but my casual 
impression was that it was not as well stocked as the old Ann Arbor store.


#124 of 160 by senna on Fri Dec 6 12:44:00 2002:

Sounds like it's not going to last.


#125 of 160 by gull on Fri Dec 6 14:20:01 2002:

Re #118: He took it down.  College students can't afford lawyers.


#126 of 160 by polygon on Sun Dec 8 14:21:55 2002:

The definitive case on "facts are not subject to copyright" is FEIST v.
RURAL TELEPHONE, a U.S. Supreme Court case around 1990.

Of course, the content people have been busy bribing Congress ever since to
rewrite copyright law in such a way as to invalidate Feist.  But one of the
key goals of the "database copyright" law would be to allow the pro sports
leagues to copyright scores, so that no one could report on games or publish
statistics without paying a royalty to the NFL or Major League Baseball or
whatever.  I think that prospect was shocking enough to people that the bill
has been stalled for a while.


#127 of 160 by krj on Mon Dec 9 03:16:35 2002:

Arizona 23, Detroit 20.

My bad.    :)


#128 of 160 by gelinas on Mon Dec 9 03:43:25 2002:

Sounds like the Lions' bad.


#129 of 160 by dbratman on Mon Dec 9 22:37:13 2002:

Tower Records, which I believe originally comes from Northern 
California, is still thriving out here, and the classical sections are 
well-stocked.  When the Berkeley store moved and expanded, the all-
classical outlet was closed and moved back in with the rest, but not 
diminished in size, and there's an all-classical store across the 
street from the other store in the North Beach district of San 
Francisco.  That's not counting the 4 other Tower outlets I frequent.  
But I'm buying about half my classical CDs from Amazon now, and some of 
the rest from a B&N superstore which has the misfortune of being closer 
to my home than any of the above Towers.

I am tentatively concluding from the previous two posts that there must 
be an NFL team in Arizona.  What?  This is news to me.  I heard that 
the Colts left Baltimore for ... uh, somewhere, but after that I lost 
track.  My knowledge of pro sports pretty much stops dead around 1972.


#130 of 160 by senna on Tue Dec 10 00:02:19 2002:

How healthy of you.  Other than the chance for water cooler conversation on
the topic, you only miss as much as you choose to place value on.  

I'll fill you in, but only because it's such an amusing thing to fill you in
on.  The St. Louis Cardinals left St. Louis and moved to Phoenix (well,
Tempe).  The Los Angeles Rams left Los Angeles (well, Anaheim) and moved to
St. Louis.  The Baltimore Colts left Baltimore and moved to Indianapolis, adn
the owner was recently feeling out the possibility of leaving Indianapolis
for Los Angeles.  They're still in Indy, though.  The Cleveland Browns left
Cleveland and moved to Baltimore, becoming the Ravens, and a new team was
created in Cleveland, once again called the Browns.  They played in a Division
with the Tennessee Titans, which used to be the Tennessee Oilers after moving
out of Houston as teh Houston Oilers.  Houston just created a new team this
year, called the Texans, that plays in a division with the Titans.  Houston
had to get permission to use the name "Texans" from the Dallas Cowboys, who
were called the "Texans" when they were first founded.  

In related news, Dallas is also home of the Stars, who were moved from
Minnesota, when they were called the Minnesota North Stars.  Minnesota created
a new team, called the Wild.  They play in a conference with the Phoenix
Coyotes, which used to be the Winnipeg Jets, the Colorado Avalanche, which
used to be the Quebec Nordiques, and the Calgary Flames, which used to be the
Atlanta Flames (you guess it--Atlanta just created a new team, called the
"Thrashers.")

No, I didn't have to look any of this up.  Yes, I do have a life, and yes,
it is rewarding, and yes, this is a reminder of why you're probably better
off having forgotten all about professional sports. :)  It's funny, see?


#131 of 160 by jmsaul on Tue Dec 10 03:00:06 2002:

Atlanta *Flames*?  They named it after the burning of their own city?


#132 of 160 by dang on Tue Dec 10 04:54:56 2002:

Atlanta Thrashers.  Calgery Flames.


#133 of 160 by jmsaul on Tue Dec 10 13:40:52 2002:

Ah, okay.  I wondered.


#134 of 160 by dbratman on Wed Dec 11 19:35:00 2002:

"Atlanta Flames" wouldn't be that weird.  Have you seen the Florida 
license-plates with Challenger on them?  They commemorate on their cars 
the most infamous motor-vehicle accident to occur within their borders. 
Now that's bizarre.


#135 of 160 by senna on Thu Dec 12 00:46:53 2002:

It's both, actually.  The original Atlanta franchise that moved to Calgary
was called the Flames.  The new franchise is called the Thrashers.  

Chicago's Soccer franchise is called the "Chicago Fire," though they do
diffuse that somewhat by using the fire department's symbol as their logo.



#136 of 160 by dbratman on Fri Dec 13 20:27:23 2002:

I hate it when sport franchise names are in the singular.

Worst of all is my own university, which calls its teams the Stanford 
Cardinal.  I keep wanting to ask, the Stanford Cardinal WHAT?  Cardinal 
Sins?

I went along with dropping Indians, but I voted for the Robber Barons 
as the new name.


#137 of 160 by gull on Fri Dec 13 21:14:13 2002:

I would have suggested the Fighting Honkies, in case they wanted to
stick with racial references.


#138 of 160 by senna on Fri Dec 13 23:33:09 2002:

I hate singular names, too.

There's a small club sports team or something in the northwest that has one
Native American team called the Fighting Whities.  I don't know many other
details, but I think it's hilarious.

You could always go for the Fighting Irish, or ask the New Orleans basketball
franchise (formerly of Charlotte, of course) to change its name from the
Hornets to the WASPS.


#139 of 160 by polygon on Sat Dec 14 21:58:06 2002:

I thought the students at Stanford had voted (by a very wide margin) to
name the sports teams the "Robber Barons".


#140 of 160 by ea on Sun Dec 15 05:58:56 2002:

My school used to have as their mascot a native american warrior, known 
as the Saltine Warrior.  That was changed, in the name of political 
correctness, to a large citrus fruit.  (somewhat less intimidating, 
however, if I was approached by a 5 foot 5 inch tall citrus fruit in a 
dark alleyway, I think I'd be pretty scared)

(Said citrus fruit is currently one of 12 mascots that are up for 
the "Capital One Bowl Mascot of the Year" award.  Sadly, he's only got 
3% of the vote right now)


#141 of 160 by jmsaul on Sun Dec 15 18:32:27 2002:

Saltine?


#142 of 160 by remmers on Sun Dec 15 21:58:02 2002:

http://www.syr.edu/aboutsu/memorabilia/mascot.html

<remmers suppresses politically incorrect comment concerning citrus fruit
 mascot>


#143 of 160 by ea on Sun Dec 15 23:48:05 2002:

Syracuse was known as the "Salt City", presumably for a pretty decent 
number of Salt mines in and around the city.  The "Saltine Warrior" 
was, to the best of my knowledge, named to reflect this, not as a 
tribute to the tasty cracker of the same name. (It is not known as to 
whether or not the Saltine Warrior threw saltine crackers into the 
audience ;) )


#144 of 160 by gull on Mon Dec 16 14:54:37 2002:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28574.html

No particularly new information, but kind of amusing.
Excerpt:

Yesterday it [the RIAA] issued a press release announcing a piracy bust
in New York which unearthed 421 CD-R burners.

Only there weren't 421 burners, but "the equivalent of 421 burners."

In fact, there were just 156. How did the RIAA account for this discrepancy?

"There were only 156 actual burners, but some run at very high speeds:
some as high as 40x. This is well above the average speed," was the
official line yesterday.


#145 of 160 by krj on Mon Dec 16 15:25:46 2002:

http://www.cdfreaks.com   seems to have the best headline news roundup
these days, though much of the material is of shaky quality.  
They point to this story from usa today: 

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2002-12-12-record_x.htm
"Record industry braces for lumps of coal in its stocking"
 
Soundscan reports that USA album-length sales are down 11% this 
year, in year-to-date numbers.  "It's unlikely that the final 
stretch of Christmas shopping will pull 2002 out of a nose dive."
 
Are older fans less likely to download/trade unauthorized copies, 
or are they just more interested?  "The exception ((to the sales
decline)) seems to lie in the long-ignored demographic of older
fans.  Such adult-skewing artists as James Taylor, Bruce Springsteen, 
the Dixie Chicks and Alan Jackson seem immune to the industry malaise."
 
From other stories which I can't reference right now: the sales 
of Mariah Carey's "comeback" album are mediocre, and the sales of 
Whitney Houston's new album have to be considered catastrophic, given
that she was signed to a $100,000,000 contract.   "Death of the Divas"
stories are running in a number of places.


#146 of 160 by dbratman on Mon Dec 16 21:55:10 2002:

I chuckled at the redefinition of 156 CD burners as 421 burners because 
they ran at high speeds.  I suppose Roger Bannister got to cast extra 
votes at elections, counting as additional persons, because he ran at 
high speeds.

I am reminded of a strategem in the current attempt to prove that 
poorer people are undertaxed: their social security tax is not counted, 
on the grounds that this money is eventually returned in the form of 
benefits.


#147 of 160 by orinoco on Mon Dec 16 23:35:40 2002:

"Adult-skewing artists"?


#148 of 160 by mcnally on Tue Dec 17 00:47:03 2002:

  Sure.  Lots of people who like the Dixie Chicks wind up pretty skewed.
  Why do you think they had to take that "Earl" song off the air?


#149 of 160 by gull on Tue Dec 17 03:05:23 2002:

Re #146: According to a Wall Street Journal editorial, poor people need
to be taxed more heavily so that they'll develop a healthy hatred of
government.  Presumably they'd then vote Republican, like all right-thinking
people.


#150 of 160 by krj on Tue Dec 17 04:02:57 2002:

(resp:147 :: Probably I'm mangling the language.  Artists who tend 
to draw an older audience than the music business is used
to marketing to.)

(resp:149 ::  we're really drifting here, but I wonder if the Wall
Street Journal considered that Maggie Thatcher tried the exact
same maneuver.  To get lower-income people upset with their 
local government, she attempted to force the local governments
to levy a per-person tax amount -- this was called a poll tax
in the UK.  The plan was to make people demand a lowering of 
the tax amount and deep cuts in social services; the result, 
however, was close to a general uprising and Thatcher was forced 
out of office.)


#151 of 160 by russ on Tue Dec 17 04:19:34 2002:

Maybe the extra 265 burners exist in virtual reality.


#152 of 160 by krj on Tue Dec 17 18:17:11 2002:

How are other media markets doing?  USA Today (paper edition) reports
that book sales are down 7% for fall 2002, a decline roughly 
comparable to what's being projected for the music industry.

Amazingly, the book industry spokespeople don't
blame the internet or copy machines  :)   ; instead they 
talk about the soft economy and the fall in popularity of several
megablockbuster authors.


#153 of 160 by gull on Tue Dec 17 21:40:53 2002:

The U.S. government has lost its DMCA case against Elcomsoft for
producing a product to decrypt Adobe e-books.

http://online.securityfocus.com/news/1857

'Lawyers for the Russian company said Elcomsoft's program simply allowed
users to make backup copies of eBooks and be able to read them on other
devices, something permitted under the "fair use" concept of copyright law.

'Jury foreman Dennis Strader said the argument made a big impact on the
jurors, who asked U.S. District Judge Ronald M. Whyte to clarify the
"fair use" definition shortly after deliberations began.

'"Under the eBook formats, you have no rights at all, and the jury had
trouble with that concept," said Strader.'


#154 of 160 by krj on Tue Dec 17 22:07:37 2002:

Wow, this is huge.  In the early reporting it sounds like a case 
of "jury nullification."  Thanks, David!


#155 of 160 by dbratman on Wed Dec 18 01:18:33 2002:

I hope it's not jury nullification, because then it could be 
overturned, and wouldn't have any precedential force.  What we need is 
what resp:153 quotes the jury foreman as saying, that ebook use 
restrictions are a direct violation of established fair use provisions.


#156 of 160 by gull on Wed Dec 18 03:24:22 2002:

The SecurityFocus report (which is off the AP wire, I think) suggested this
wouldn't really set a precident against the DMCA, and that another case
would be necessary for that.  So maybe it was jury nullification.


#157 of 160 by mdw on Wed Dec 18 07:00:51 2002:

I think it's going to be clear how important this is as a precedent once
it's appealed.  But the important thing is probably not the jury per se,
who aren't expected to interpret law, but only determine if the facts
"fit" the law, but the arguments made to the jury by the two opposing
teams of lawyers, and whatever instructions the judge gave the jury.
Most of that is based on centuries of hoary common law.  Jury
nullification would be if the jury made a decision completely contrary
to all logic - in this case, it sounds like they more likely made a
decision consistent with the law as it was explained to them.  Assuming
they did so and that the law was explained completely and accurately,
it's very likely the recording industry is going to be at least somewhat
disappointed.  Perhaps DMCA didn't go far enough in working through all
the ramnifications of "fair use" and redefining them to meet the
recording industry's expectations, or perhaps the recording industry
completely failed to explain how legitimate use of resources could fail
to violate DMCA, leaving an apparent contradiction in law.  That's no
problem for common law; apparent contradictions happen all the time,
indeed, lawyers thrive on the stuff.  They've got all sorts of rules for
what happens in such cases, and if that's what happened here, then the
ever popular "status quo" rule won the day.  There's another rule which
says if {a long list of exceptions} didn't happen, then what the jury
decides must be true, which means judges try hard not to interpret law
in ways which contradict how "properly instructed" juries interpret the
law.  So I think the decision this jury reached is really quite
interesting.

Of course, that assumes a properly functioning judiciary system.  You
never know how ideology will affect a "strict constructionalist".

It will be interesting to see what "son of DMCA" looks like should this
court decision survive the appeals process.


#158 of 160 by gull on Wed Dec 18 14:12:00 2002:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28590.html

The Librarian of Congress has the power to review the effects of the
DMCA and grant exemptions every three years.  The deadline is Wednesday
for this round.  Only narrow issues where there's a "factual case for
harm caused by the law" are considered, though.


#159 of 160 by dbratman on Wed Dec 18 23:17:37 2002:

I'm a librarian, but I'd never wanted to be Librarian of Congress.  You 
have to live in D.C., and the job is more administration and publicity 
than actual librarianship.  (Most librarians hate to be administrators, 
and try to avoid promotion into such positions.  As a result the 
administrators are the ones who actually enjoy it, which is often even 
worse.)

But I have to say, having power over the DMCA has made me dream 
wistfully of what I'd do if I somehow did become Librarian of 
Congress ... but if I did what I'd want to do, I probably wouldn't hold 
the job long.


#160 of 160 by remmers on Thu Dec 19 13:39:21 2002:

(Librarian of Congress seems to be a powerful position.  He also
gets to choose what films are added to the National Film Registry.
I always do a double-take when I see his name in the news -- he
was a history professor of mine in college, back in his teaching
days...)


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