Is the punk scene dead? What happened to the counterculture scene in music? Punk music now seems to be completely identical to "alternative." Despite the fact that it has been diveded into like a million subcategories, which a musical form dedicated to being against the flow/being uncategorizable shouldn't be, it all sounds exactly the same: break beat beat beat beat bridge break vocal. :) Hmmm... has punk gone soft? From what I am seeing, all punk music now is about *looking* like a "punk," not singing like one -- "Oooh! Look at me! I have died hair and I look like Keith Flint from Prodigy! I must be a punk singer!". What do you think?99 responses total.
According to some on this cf, punk has died a number of times-- this time would make it three, if I remember correctly. The first time was in the 70's, the second time was in the early 80's when punk elements merged with pop, and I guess the third time would be now. Perhaps we should ask, "What is Johnny Rotten doing now?" I believe he is one of the grandfathers of punk. How many people have truly followed his lead? What happened since his recent appearance and the creation of a punk alternative to Lollapalooza (I forget the name)? In the past, a lot of styles were categorized as punk. Remember when Elvis Costello was considered punk (well, perhaps he still is considered as such)? How many times has punk been mixed with other styles? Has the original article been lost? Personally, I'm glad that musicians are finally growing numb to raw expressions of anger-- it made me ralph. I liked Billy Idol-- punkpop-- because it was more of a sneer than a yell, and it had a controlled attitude. There was some musical skill, too, but I'm sure that's debatable..
Punk is, by its nature, subject to die-offs and reappearances. Think of it as a scavenger animal or insect... when the bulk music culture gets too soft and diseased, punk experiences a sudden reappearance. THere is currently a small thread about it in a newsgroup I follow, rec.music.makers.bass, but it will likely end soon.
I think the question we need to ask first, is what is punk. Like above, punk is more than a haircut or color, but is it the vocals or the music. I think that the only way you can get into teh punk/grunge scene is to see little known bands. The main problem punk keeps "dying" off is cause it gets popular. The whole point is not to sell out, and when you do it becomes altenative, and when you don't you don't get to eat. That si the problem.... I thin kalot of the mainstream out there is actually alternative, and alot of the alternative is actually punk, its all just a cross breeding between the two. In this day and age you cannot cater to one type of music, and still be popular, thats why alot of bands (Beck, Goldfinger, Green day) all have songs from many different styles. Oops, I talked too much, sorry.
See, I don't think that people can just view small bands cause when people actually like music, it has this nasty tendency to get popular. A lot of people I know who are heavy in the Chicago and New York counterculture scenes always say, "I only like to watch independent bands." Problem: you watch them and they go and get popular on you. So, I guess Punk has to die off even more regularly than it appears to cuz it is a music form dedicated to counterculture, and music can't survive like that. My problem is that alot of the "punk" groups seem like they were created in a boardroom at MTV: "Hey, Bob, have we elected the punk commision yet? No? Well, get right on it! I wanna see some guys in overly-bright clothing by MONDAY! I wanna see girls in ripped nylons!" Its all well and good I suppose if punk goes commercial on me -- just not when it starts out that way and seems to be a completely packaged, shrink-wrapped product, ala a non-punk band (the Spice Girls, f'rinstance :)... anyways, now *I* have talked too much.
Cabbage...long time no see! Hi there!
Cabbage! Long time never see! Hi there!
been longer than I care to admit. Anywho, counterculture is mainstream here in ann arbor, which adds just a little too much to the mix for me... Glad to here from some of my old pals. Unfortunatly, beware, cause I have changed a tad (i.e. I grew up) It was bound to happen one of these days...
Well, it's good that you can admit you have grown up. That is the first step to dealing with adulthood. I have a 12 step program that can help... I used to be an adult too. Actually, you always WILL be an aduly now, but I know people who can help you deal with your cravings. The first step is to sell your econobox car, if you have one, and buy a Miata, which you can let me borrow for dates on weekends. Step two: go to the mall. Buy new clothes. Ignore the cost. Now, shred them and wear them in public. If you can afford it, go to Renaissance and buy a really expensive party suit. Wear it to your job, after dyeing your hair to match the suit. Hope this helped... tell me when you have completed the first two steps, so I can help you with the rest of your journey of success. ;)
Why the hell should I buy a Miata? I am still in college vying for my bachelor's, so money seems to just flow away. Thinking about a master's, too. To top it off, I plan to be an elementary music teacher, so I can't stay an adolescent for long! Why am I responding when I wasn't part of the conversation? Well, at 23 years of age, I still feel there are things I missed out on and that I need to catch up to! I still wear black clothing from time to time, but I am still dreaming of owning a black leather jacket, tight black flight pants, and black mid-calf combat boots (Docs, maybe?) I already dyed my hair blonde.. I am a weird child of the 80's-- old enough to remember some of it nostalgically, but young enough to consider some of it as novelty, and having the freedom to pick out the good stuff. I am watching, with baited breath, to see how the retro-80's fashion and style will go-- techno is on the upswing :), anime is enjoying a comeback, and PVC is all the rage to wear. No clear sign of New Wave.. but then, the music scene is different now than it was then. Doesn't mean I yet adore domestic music..
the best reason to buy a miata is to let me drive it. really. or cuz you can't affor a boxster.
And becuase Miatas are _cute_!
yeah, cute isnt the word I would use, "too small to fit me" is more correct. :) Yay anime! I actually took a polo shirt last night, ripped it apart, moosed the heck out of my hair, and went out on the streets. It was cool...
Oh, another anime fan, is it?
Well, if the Miata won't fit you, I guess that means that you can let *me* use it more, huh? :)
that sounds about right... I like anime, but I don't obsess, I just ike to support those who do Its better than our cartoons, actually it's better than most of the TV here...
...No comment....
Re#15: Decidedly so. Cricket, you casting aspersions on my brand of crackheadedness?
...No comment...
Ok, hey, imagine this: a post that is actually relevent to the thread. Hot shit, eh? Well, here is the thing: there is another "Home Alone" movie coming out this holiday season, Home Alone 3 i believe. Of course, the replaced McAuley "One Trick" Culkin. I can here you wondering, "How the heck is a packaged, canned, hack of a movie relevent to punk?" Well, thats just the thing: it shouldn't be. But -- has anyone seen the trailers for this (I honor it too much by calling it a movie... perhaps "cimematically enhanced sitcom" would be a good phrase)? Anyways, if you have, you might have noticed the music played over the tortured dialog clips: Tub Thumping/Chamba Wamba. This is a band that has been called "punk" by the music industry, but this incident makes me wonder just how packaged a group this is... i liked their music too. Oh well. Anyways, I previously stated I feel that it is OK for a group to make loads of money, for a group to change format for its own artistic reasons, or whatever else. This is no such thing. It is... Selling Out.
I agree with cabbage. I'm 6'1" and weigh about 265. Miatas are too too small. Eek, man, you wore a polo shirt? I have a black loose-fitting one and that's it. I wore them more when I was less fashion-conscious-- or rather, less fashion-artistic. But I do love rubgy jerseys :) even love playing the game, purely for recreation.. Chamba Wamba punk? Yeah, not likely, but I think we did agree punk is rather dead. I like Tub Thumping, but it's not an example of punk at all. Now-- did we discuss Billy Idol at all? I mentioned him some. He had a successful solo career after fronting two failed punk bands. That means he was tapping into the sound that punk was going into-- yep, punk gone soft, or the merging of pop and punk. Some said that was what New Wave was. Anyway, it's a similar comparison. I don't know if Chamba Wamba came from a punk background, though. Anyone remember my question: just what is punk? I mean, they used to call Elvis Costello punk, too. Post-beatnik, maybe. But not punk.
Punk will be officially dead when Tim Yohannon from MaximumRockandRoll dies.
What about him? I mean, I haven't heard of the guy.
I never said Chamba Wamba was punk, merely that that was how certain corporate Music pushers were selling it. I dont think it is -- don't worry. :)
Well, is punk music that sings about counterculture or just associates with it?
I think that punk music sings against popular/mainstream culture.
The whole point of punk is to break away from the mainstream of musical trends. Punk tends to affect the mainstream by means of related styles, like punk-pop or ska-core or what have you, but in the past when punk itself has begun entering the mainstream, it's died back again pretty quickly.
Mmm, I thought the whole point of punk was the DIY ethic.
finally someone mentioned diy :)
RE#22 -- Tim Yohannon is the editor-in-chief of the punk periodical MaximumRockandRoll. He is a loudmouthed jerk who through his strict editorial control (of a supposedly free-thinking 'zine) seems to think he is the one who decided what is "punk" and what is not "punk". It was a little joke.
Good lord. Punk has a periodical?
Doesn't everything?
Well, yeah, now that you mention it, everything does. Hmmm. I can think of at least three different criminal activities with magazines devoted to them...
Excuse me for being clueless, but what is DIY?
I take it to mean Do It Yourself.
Yeah, you take it right. On chumbawamba: i just baught one of their CD's and actually listened to the lyrics. I would say based on our discriptions of 'punk' so far, it qualifies. There older music (they have been around professionally since 1982) is *very* punk... very anarchisitc, very diy.
I actually haven't heard any of their music, but from what I've heard and seen of the lyrics they seem to be at least moderately anarchistic still.
Actually punk has several periodicals: MRR, Flipside, and Punk Planet are three that are quite readily available nationally. There are dozens of other smaller publications, and thousands of 'zines dedicated to the ways and means of that we have come to know as punk.
And there are also some stupid rivalries between those magazines, as I found out from reading a couple issues of Punk Planet recently. There are fundamentalists in punk these days, just like in Christianity.
Doth mine ears decieve me? Fundamentalist Christian Punk?
Not Fundamentalist Christian Punk, just Fundamentalist Punk. I.e. "so-and-so isn't REAL punk, but this other so-and-so is".
you know, like "Thou shalt pretend to hate everything," "Thou shalt not use more chords than the Sex Pistols," etc.. Ironically, some punk fans seem to be more narrowminded than most about what music qualifies for their favorite genre..
Ah. I get it now.
re #41: pretty rediculous, huh? This is the "I will not like punk music if it is liked by lots of people" crowd, i think.
I like punk rock. I burn one on my porch every night to keep the bugs away.
Kind of like burning your guitar. Only different.
There are however Christian Punks and Christian Punk bands and music.
...no comment...
hey-- it's kinda a shame good guys have to take on a bad boy image to let their message continue to go through.
Do tell, goose - I'm intrigued.
I Christian Punk is an oxymoron... these are the pretend-punks, who are claiming to be "punk" based on the color of their hair, the use of samples/distortion/whateva' to create a particular sound, and body piercing... Unless, of course, they have an "over throw that bastard government cuz its too nice to them other religions I want to see it crash and burn" message, in which case I still don't like it ;) What defines "christian punk?"
So your position, then, would be that "punk" is determined by the content of the lyrics and not just by the style of the music (tempo, chords, which instruments are used, etc?)
I would certainly argue that the lyrical content is an intrinsic aspect of what defines "punk rock". When I hear music that sounds like punk but has lighter, happier lyrics, I usually refer to it as either "punk lite" or "bubble-gum punk".
Once again, the problem is where to put the boundary between punk and all the swarms of punk-related styles. I've heard bands like Greenday, Chumbawumba, and so forth called 'punk', but I don't think either qualifies - Greenday tends to be overly happy, and Chumbawumba doesn't sound very 'punky' musically. You need to have both.
Oh, fuck the punks. I never much liked angry music, and a lot of musicians who started out as punk finally woke up and smelled the coffee. I mean, starving is ok if that's what you want or if doing punk music is your moonlighting and you have a daytime job, but man, some folks wanna eat. Blondie never was very punk, Billy Idol strayed from the hard-core path, and we just discussed the fact that Chumbawumba decided to give it up, too-- anything wrong with that? Johnny Rotten can just go rot for all I care..
*laugh* =) I wasn't even aware people considered Blondie punk... I like their music alot, but it has more of a 80's glamrock or maybe a ska feel to it. I heard some "good" punk by TSOL a little while ago. It jammed! But then, I don't really listen to the lyrics, I just sort of let them wash over me and act as subliminal messages on me ;) In fact, I think I will go look at some corpses in a morgue right now ;) Well, maybe not... About needing both a sound-format and lyric-format to qualify as 'punk,' I would like to agree most wholeheartedly and suggest that this is the reason that Abbie Hoffman isn't a punk ;) later...
actually I suppose the above post says something about punk music... True Sound of Liberty (tsol) hasn't done much of anything big in years ;)
Re 54 - Actually, "fuck the punks" is a perfect expression of punk attitudes, and any true punker would love it. >8) Re 54/55 - Yep, I have indeed heard folks refer to Blondie as punk, although not recently. I actually listened to my Billy Idol best-of CD last week, and was surprised how happy and 80's the music seemed to me now. I've become jaded...
Well, what it takes to shock people changes over time.
Saw an album at Borders yesterday called Ethno-punk. Artists on it included several that I wouldn't have thought of as punk, but then I'm not exactly on the cutting edge there (um, Rock, Salt and Nails, Den Fule, Hedningarna, a couple of others that I know from krj's world music prosletyizing :-) -- it seemed interesting thta they were advertising it as punk/world beat. Lots of Egyptian, Rwandan, and other nationalities there, too.
that sounds pretty neat... I may have to walk all the way over to borders... I wonder if Tower would have it? they are very close to my daily routine, and they have a healthy selection of (or perhaps unhealthy selection of) punk, goth and ska, most likely as a result of their prominent location overhead that punk clothing/piercing place and in close proximity to the 2600 meetings ;) I wonder why I like punk, anyways... I am, if not upbeat, usually pretty mellow with a sense of humour about things... I don't dress punk, most of the time, and my hair is usually pretty constant in its coloration. Maybe I just like entropy >=]
I know it's an emi collection, same as the Folk'n'hell one I bought earlier this yaer. So, probably available at Tower. It IS still at the Borders here in town, at least as of this afternoon, since I checked while we were there buying Roy Orbison's Greatest Hits. I would like to ask what the punk "ethic" is, since I've heard of that for a long time, and I just haven't ever heard a good explanation. And since this collection features several bands I already know I like, it seems weird that it would be called punk.
re #57-- I actually said something that a true-blue punk would love? How ironic. I just don't groove with the agenda. I don't disdain fashion, I don't go looking for aggro, I don't beat up gays, etc., etc., stereotype blah blah blah. I did color my hair recently, and five years ago, I had my hair fairly long, with the sides and back of my head shaved to the skin (all my dormmates were coaxing me to make it a mohawk). Oh yeah. I was never really keen on anarchist philosophy. I'll just Mode until I die, I guess. Billy Idol actually shocked people when he was popular? Eh? I was saying he got popular after 2 failed punk bands, and when he got happier and 80's-sounding (i.e., jumped on a bandwagon). re #55-- I haven't heard anything but _The Best of Blondie_, so I couldn't really classify them. From that collection alone, they weren't just glamrock, they were indeed post-punk (Atomic, Rip Her To Shreds), and they eventually merged a little into technopop sounds (Heart of Glass special mix, Rapture, Atomic, etc.) I enjoy a little sarcasm, a little attitude, a little torture in my music; but generally not to the degree that bands are doing now. Guess I gotta love my techno :)
Agreed. <- Wow. That has to be my least wordy post to date, so maybe I will add some filler. Filler part 1) I don't think that punk means that you have to go around beating up gays or anything else. I think punk is simply going against the grain. Especially now. In the last decade, every fringe group except the Southern Baptists has moved to the center, moderated its stance. Punk is no different. I think punk means, to the majority of people who like to think they are punks, anarchism and not a lot else -- pissing on the flag, if you will. (This is assuming that they are not total airheads who aren't into much of anything at all). Filler part 2: Twila Oxley Price.... did you ever have any involvement with the Steiner school? I recognize your (just a tad unusual) name from somewhere ;) Feel freee to respond to the filler, babes :)
In fact, most of the punks I've known would rather beat up homophobes than beat up gays. >8)
Nope. :-) Well, upon listening to the album, it's way cool. I like it a lot. Instant sonic bliss. But I still don't know if it's punk. Bands(sing out if you know of 'em!): Yehuda Poliker (Israel) Ciudad Jardin (Spain) Pyx Lax (Greece) Rock, Salt and Nails (Scotland) Den Fule (Sweden) Mano NEgra (France) Parsha Club (Okinawa Japan) Raz, Dwa, Trzy (Poland) MAu MAu (Italy) Black 47 (USA) Parlamas do Sucesso (Brazil) Ciu Jian (China) Shoogilnifty (Scotland) Hedningarna (Sweden) Wilmer X (Sweden) I have or have heard albums by: Rock Salt and Nails, Den Fule, Shoogilnifty, and Hedningarna.
I've heard stuff by Mano Negra before, though don't have any of their recordings..
I'll have to loan Twila some Black 47 CDs.
I've heard some Black 47, but I don't know as I'd call it punk...
See, Miles? That is why you aren't a Music Company CEO =]
re #64: That just goes to show how very much times have changed. In fact, playing The Village People doesn't annoy very many of them anymore. (Maybe a lot of punks used to be the sort of gay bashers who wouldn't admit they were gay themselves?) Who knows..
Black 47? Punk? That is so far out! I guess you could call it that, in that they have a "rah, rah, rah, F*ck the system" attitude... But I don't know... What would that make them, "Celtic Punk?"
re#70 -- IN addition to the Christian-Punks, there is the whole Queer-Punk scene. Check out the Queers, and Pansy Division.
it is a rather interesting phenomenon, isn't it?
Well, you can crossbreed more or less anything with Punk fairly easily, just by giving it more of a raw edge, or so it seems to me. So Celtic-punk, or anything else, would be less difficult to arrange than some combinations.
Definitely something to think about. But punk has never *ever* been attached to any sort of black music. That's where epithets like 'gangsta' and 'criminal' come in.
Well, there's been rap that comes fairly close to punk, and much punk/ska also uses bits of rap. The difference is that gangsta rap actually tends to be fairly heavily produced, and not very punk-ish to my ears.
Right on the mark, as usual.
re #75 Not true! The Bad Brains did punk reggae back in the early 80s. Fishbone did punk ska/funk in the mid 80s and they are still making music. X-Ray Spex one of the original British punk bands had black members. As to the earlier thread I would argue that punk is not a style of music or a way of dressing it is the do it yourself attitude. Thus I would say must of the true punks today would not be doing what is commonly thought of as punk music but more something like free jazz world culture influenced music like you might here from Morsel or some of the bands from Community High like Poignt Plectrostomos.
See, I wouldn't call Plecostomus a punk band, but I suppose their audience tends to have a punk feel to it...
But a band like PP or Morsel is quite punk in their ideals, maybe not so much in their sound.
Ok, has anyone ever heard anything by Atari Teenage Riot? (Or for that matter anything on the DHR label, relating to Alec Empire?) They are pretty interesting in that they sound _very_ punk (both in terms of instrumentals and lyrical content), but that they try to dissasociate themselves with "punk" music. They have said in interviews that they feel punk, rap, techno, and 'electronica' are all soft musical styles. I suppose ATR does have a progressive sound, but they _if they wanted to_ could be termed punk. Given this, and interesting question would be: how may bands that _appear_ punk actually want to _be_ punk, or would claim to be? IF you haven't heard any ATR, let me just say it sounds like punk or speedmetal with plenty of samples thrown in and techno effect like phasers/flanges. It's lyrical content is anarcho-political. Even if you don't like their music, they are pretty consistently fairly progressive -- to the point that listening to them is a good way to figure out what music is gonna do in the next couple of years. There are realaudio samples of their music on the web at http://www.soundz.com/feature/sndzite/atr/ (Honest to god, I am not a promoter or ATR or an employee of Digital Hardcore Recording, INC. ;)
Intriguing...no, I've never heard of them, but you've piqued my curiousity.
Anarchy. Highly overrated. But the instrumental content sounds very fascinating.
I have been surprised to see almost no modern bands that are actually punk mentioned here. Punk is most definately not dead, as is made obvious by the popularity of bands like Avail and there are quite a few bands here in Indianapolis like Illithed. Punk can not be popular in the mainstream, simply because of the fundamental basis of punk. If it is the majority, then it certainly isn't punk. Personally, I am not into punk, I strongly disagree with the self destructive attitude of the whole scene. But punk lives in many forms other than just punk. THere have been several music styles to come from punk, the most positive, and in my opinion the best style of music there is, is hardcore. I could go into the entire history of hardcore from the Teen Idles to Minor Threat to Earth Crisis, but I think this already long enough. If anyone wants to know more, e-mail me.
Here's a question I've always wanted answered: What's the difference between punk and hardcore?
Here we go again. :) Someone may have to define punk a bit more tightly now..
I still say punk is not a style of music but the DIY sttitude. IMO Balkan brass band music from the ruins of sravejo is far punker than some suburban kids playing bad 3 chord music full of trite cliches about anarchy.
I agree that kids playing music in sarjevo (agh, my spelling is fuct) probably have a more diy attitude -- but the music doesn't reflect it. I don't think any music form that originated with a 50 year old american musical style and was subsequently processed through a foreign culture can be "punk" for the simple reason that the music doesn't sound punk, and the message promoted by the music (though perhaps not by the musicians) is nothing like "punk" music. This is a discussion of music, not musicians (if you can seperate the two, that is).
The muscian is the music.
Isn't punk itself a 20-year-old style?
Punks not dead it's just fat bald & old. Ask Johnny Rotten...
Still, we've been debating what punk music actually *is*. If that logic is true, then punk has to change itself to a new incantation just to keep a rebellious low-profile.
re # 92 I agree the true spirit of punk is to not be static musically. For an example of evolved punk check the local band Poignt Plecstrostomos. They play fast klezmer, Irish improve in strange time sigantures, now that we are in the information age poential punks have access to many more musical genres than the origal punks probably listened to in the 70s.
Hmm... I met them when they played at the gypsy caffe (on 4th st, i think)
a couple months back... they are really progressive musically. I like them
a lot.
Anyways, I asked the guys who I was sitting with before the show if it could
be called punk music. Judging by the answer I got ("Yeah, right, its hardcore
punk, in fact they will be shooting up heroine in the middle of a violin
solo") they don't think so, and their audience doesn't think so. It sounded
as if they don't want to be associated with "punk" music at all.
On the other hand, perhaps the musician is qualified to do anything except
create music, and judge whether or not not music is "good."
Perhaps a way to help answer the question "what is punk?" would be to decide
what *bands* are "punk." For instance, are the bands on the Epitath label,
such as Pennywise (one of my favorite groups), NOFX, Operation Ivy, Rancid,
and Millencolin punk? Why or why not?
PP is *not* punk. Playing in odd meters just for the sake of showing you can do it is the absolute antithesis of punk.
I thought Lawrence Welk was the *absolute* antithesis of punk..
re #95: why so?
Punk is based on emotion, usually anger. It was/is a reaction to over-blown attitudes that permeate much music, such as the bombastic ending, the over-done dynamic, the overly-complex arrangement. Most odd-metered songs lack the visceral quality needed for punk. If I were to make a comparison of A2 bands, I would suggest that Morsel, which also uses odd meters, is more "punk" than PP, since the meter of their songs, at least sometimes, seems to be used as vehicle to further the emotional impact of the song, rather than an exercise in cleverness.
Erm, Plecostomus seems plenty "visceral", if I'm understanding the word right. They are kind of alcking in anger or angst, tho... erm, lacking.
You have several choices: