Grex Music2 Conference

Item 54: Passing on the legacy: Music education/pedagogy

Entered by lumen on Sun Jun 29 01:39:31 1997:

All right, I've heard much from audiophiles, but not much about people's
experiences with _creating_ music, much less teaching it.  Is there anyone
out there who teaches music (and this includes lessons of any kind)?  What
about self-taught musicians?  Steve (senna)-- I know you taught yourself power
chord guitar, but how did you come about doing that?

Any responses would be appreciated as I am starting studies this fall to
become a elementary music teacher.
97 responses total.

#1 of 97 by orinoco on Sun Jun 29 13:50:30 1997:

Well, I've never taught music, but I've run across a wide variety of music
teachers, both good and bad.  
If you're looking for helpful advice, I'd have to say the most important thing
is to let people follow their own interests and ideas as much as possible.
When I was taking classical piano lessons, for instance, I really hated it
when teachers took the attitude that 'You have to be playing something by
Bach, you have to be playing something by Mozart", etcetera.  OTOH, when I
had more choice in what I was learning I usually ended up playing some of the
'classics' anyway, and enjoying it a lot more.
Hmm...don't know how much that helps...


#2 of 97 by senna on Thu Jul 3 19:15:20 1997:

I guess I just sort of got interested in guitar from the music I listen to
and the friends I have who play.  It goes along with my desire to do it myself
as opposed to have it spoonfed to me.  Music, that is.


#3 of 97 by lumen on Tue Jul 15 21:17:11 1997:

Your responses have been helpful.  Myself, I think I made it through 11 years
of private piano lessons by being able to play what I wanted to.  I'd have
my teacher play a number of pieces, and then I'd choose what moved me.  I
suppose that's what fueled my talent for expression.  However, teachers have
to each enough fundamentals so students can play with others, and have a basis
to work from.  I'm surprised that the role of a music teacher isn't thought
of more often like that of a coach or personal trainer.  My last teacher was
really good about that.  I decided to study a variety of musical eras, and
she just helped me on my weak areas.  More things were turned over to me--
I was told that I was at a point that I needed to choose my own fingerings.

However, I found classical studies severly lacking in functional playing. 
I studied some improvisation and accompaniment patterns as a music major, but
I was impatient to have those skills catch up to my classical ones.  Some of
it I studied in a jazz forum, which is difficult because so many more  chords
are involved.  I started out improv with picking out notes from the scales
that correspond to the chord changes.  Then I was moved to comp playing rather
quickly, and found I needed to know chord inversions so I could make the chord
changes as close as possible.  I struggled with that difficult task, along
with the often quick tempos of jazz music.  I quickly lost interest in
studying jazz improv anymore.

Learning folk guitar was so different.  Because the approach is so
chord-based, I could play more spontaneously, and without standard notation.
Not surprisingly, my classical guitar skills are lacking since I've memorized
more fingerings as chords than fingerings as individual notes.  It's easier
since guitar chords have more of a shape to them than piano ones do (fretboard
as opposed to a keyboard).

Because guitarists and pianists come from such diametrically different
backgrounds, their attitudes are different, too.  I've heard of guys like
Steve-- most guitarists learn on their own or learn jamming.  I haven't met
many self-taught pianists.  Most of us start at a very early age (I started
at 8) and are exposed to an almost elitist, performance-driven world.  But
the structure is good.  We learn to read standard notation by sight and by
practice, and their is a better emphasis on technique.

Somehow, I wish I could merge the two schools of thought.

And then there are the differences between instrumental and vocal music.  Each
has their own advantages and disadvantages regarding ease to perform, compose,
or to improvise upon.  but I'll save it for another time.


#4 of 97 by lumen on Tue Jul 15 21:30:39 1997:

In my long spiel about pedagogy (the study of teaching private music lessons),
I neglected the specific challenges of the elementary music classroom.
I understand more teachers these days are trying to teach melody and harmony,
as kids are plentifully exposed to beat and rhythm in not only dance and urban
music, but much of pop.  Can anyone tell me what methods are being used?  I
understand a Portland, Ore. teacher uses Koosh balls to teach kids a concept
of pitch.  He also teaches them to "ooooOOOooohhh" and "AAAAaaaahhh" to teach
the same.  The idea is that there is no real concept of tone-deafness; while
singing may be influenced by talent, it is a skill that can be acquired.

I started the soundtrack item because my ownelementary music teacher taught
us how music was used in the movies.  I'll have to mention more about this
amazing man later.


#5 of 97 by lumen on Thu Jul 24 06:22:04 1997:

One more thing I've *GOT* to ask about.  How do I teach kids to appreciate
the instrumental side of music, and not just the lyrics?  I know of a number
of people who have _no_ skill in music whatsoever, and yet appreciate
instrumental music.  More often, I have found people with some skill, but I
do find these exceptions.

One of my biggest complaints about Generation X is that they don't really
listen to music; they listen to lyrics.  It seems very noticable among my age
group, and seems to get progressively worse the younger the kids are.  Please,
someone tell me I'm wrong!  I've seen so much crap in the music industry these
days that is mostly that-- a lot of lyrics, and very little instrumental
talent.


#6 of 97 by dang on Thu Jul 24 21:51:38 1997:

I think you're partially wrong.  I know many people my age (I'm 20) with a
passion for instrumental music.  The band and orchestra at my high school
always got a very large turnout from the students, although it helped that
they were among the best in the nation. :)  Some of the popluar music these
days is quite musically good, asside from the lyrics.  I'm thinking here of
Billy Joel, Sarah McLachlan, Blues Traveler and more.  I think the love of
music and the potential for the love of music is there.  Just look at the
amazing popularity of John Williams among young people.  Part of the problem,
tho, is that there was a very dry period musically in popular music for
several years, and so the only thing that kids could appreciate was lyrics.
It'll swing back the other way.


#7 of 97 by senna on Thu Jul 24 21:57:49 1997:

I listen to a lot of stuff because it sounds cool, not because of the
profoundness of the lyrics.  I actually do tend to pick apart the pieces of
music I listen to.


#8 of 97 by mcnally on Fri Jul 25 04:34:09 1997:

  At 28 I'm probably not in your target age group for the comments
  but I find I listen to a lot of music that's primarily instrumental
  which includes some of the artists and categories I listen to most
  these days (for example, "primarily instrumental" would describe 
  almost all of the dub and surf music I listen to and a great deal
  of the early Jamaican ska..)

  I'm also not so sure that your premise is correct -- sure the most
  popular music usually has vocals and lyrics but I don't think that's
  changed recently and there's still a lot of non-mainstream music
  (how about techno?) where vocals and lyrics are unimportant or absent..
  


#9 of 97 by lumen on Fri Jul 25 07:33:58 1997:

I'm sure Daniel is right.  A dearth of activity (I think consensus put it
somewhere between the late 60's and early 70's) in pop music would create an
affinity for lyrics.  (See item #58.)  I should have phrased it that the
masses respond hugely to lyrics, but less to instrumentals.  Remember the
linked item on favorite lines from songs?  There was a lot of participation
there.  I also do sense the tide turning as I find more and more popular songs
I like, however, so I see a changing point.

If I do understand it right, the Ann Arbor area is blessed musically.  I'm
fairly biased because the stereotypical Tri-Citian listens to stoner or hick
music (various grunge/punk and country genres).  And when I say hick, I'm
talking about the Mexicans, too.  No salsa, flamenco, or Mexican dance music
here.  it's mostly Tejano and banda music-- Mexican country.  It's fine for
a while, but it tends to grate on my nerves (they sing with a drawl, too, so
I have a hard time understanding them).

I have got to move..


#10 of 97 by jiffer on Fri Jul 25 20:21:10 1997:

I think I go for the music as a compilation of things, the rythem, tone, blah
blah... sometimes the lyrics don't come into it at all, and some times they
do.  Depends on the artist.  


#11 of 97 by dang on Mon Jul 28 02:32:59 1997:

(Besides, good lyrics are poetry, good in their own right, without the music,
but most likely enhanced by it. )


#12 of 97 by lumen on Mon Jul 28 23:49:13 1997:

Good lyrics can indeed be poetry, and those of Paul Simon are a fine example.
When he collaborated with Art Garfunkel in the mid 60's and early 70's, he
was part of a trend of artists that emphasized more poetic-like qualities to
their lyrics.  A critic that wrote for the liner notes of _Parsley, Sage,
Rosemary and Thyme_ observed that audiences were demanding more meaning from
lyrics, and the fact Simon was doing so contributed to the group's success.

But people seem to have forgotten Simon's instrumentalist skills, perhaps
because he gave the harmonies to Garfunkel, who is in my opinion, a better
singer.  Listen to "Scarborough Fair/Canticle."  Simon took the medieval song
and weaved another to it by counterpoint harmony.  When the first verse
starts, Garfunkel begins the first verse of the second song a bar later ("On
the side of a hill in the deep forest green," which line ends as the first
song's second line begins, "Parsley, sage, rosemary..")  Garfunkel is not a
composer, if I understand it right, or else his abilities were far
overshadowed by those of Simon.

Daniel mentioned John Williams.  My elem. music teacher introduced me to him
in his classes.  What baited most of the class was that he showed clips of
_Star Wars_ and _Superman_, which leads me to ask if the younger generation
truly appreciates his work, or the movies he wrote the musical scores for
instead.


#13 of 97 by mcnally on Tue Jul 29 05:51:06 1997:

  Count me as one who doesn't "truly appreciate" John Williams.
  Perhaps I'm just insufficiently familiar with his work but my
  impression is that he's written the Star Wars soundtrack about
  60 or 70 times by now (i.e. everything he does winds up sounding
  alike to me (and it's not a style I particularly enjoyed to begin
  with, although it *is* well suited for certain movies..))


#14 of 97 by lumen on Wed Jul 30 05:19:18 1997:

Have you heard his score for _Home Alone_, Mike?  It wasn't really that much
in the vein of Star Wars, Superman, or Indiana Jones.

I would criticize Danny Elfman for sounding trite in his compositions more
than I would Williams.  I mean, for another example, what about "Jedi Rocks"?
Heh, Williams wrote that for the Special Edition for _Return of the Jedi_ and
it doesn't sound anything like what he's done before.

Perhaps a better criticism of John Williams would be that all of his main
themes (which would extend to his overtures) sound very alike.  However, that
doesn't necessarily mean his soundtracks sound all alike.

On the other hand, even the great composer of musicals, Ira Gershwin, said
that he had found he was beginning to repeat himself.  (Perhaps that's why
some pop stars seem to have so many identity crises-- it's one way to keep
the music, as well as the image, fresh.)


#15 of 97 by senna on Wed Jul 30 09:09:43 1997:

Williams has incredible diversity, when he needs to have it, and his scores
are popping up everywhere I look, even when I don't expect them.  It's a shame
that the classical music community doesn't recognize him for what he is more
and use him as a branch to bring more of the general public into classical
music.  


#16 of 97 by lumen on Thu Jul 31 03:48:38 1997:

Agreed, Steve-- as with the jazz community, classical enthusiasts are in a
purist trend.  Alas, it seems composers are more famous when they are dead,
gone, and their music has been mainstreamed.  Most classical listeners are
still firmly ingrained in bach and Beethoven.  I don't think the music
historians have given Williams due credit, either.

btw, Mike, what is 'dub' music?

I thought Leslie might have said something here!!  Ken?


#17 of 97 by mcnally on Thu Jul 31 07:41:41 1997:

  It's a style of music that originated in Jamaica in the early 70s
  (or possibly late 60s)  Reggae songs from popular local artists were
  often produced as singles with the B side being the instrumental track
  with no vocals.  It soon became popular for local DJs to mess with the
  instrumental tracks (referred to as "versions") adding sound effects
  or toasting or messing with the speed of the recording.  Eventually
  the most creative practitioners turned there experimentation into a
  whole new art form.  Whenever a new reggae single came out the best
  dubbers would take the version side and alter it by remixing, adding
  and taking away, and generally doing strange things to the original
  recording until they'd turned it into something new.  It was not at
  all uncommon for the dubbed version to become more popular than the
  original track.

  Eventually dub music gained international popularity and the same
  process that the early practitioners had applied to those Jamaican
  reggae singles was applied to all sorts of other music -- today dub
  is no longer tied to its Jamaican roots.  Dub reggae probably still
  makes up the majority of the dub music produced, however, though ambient
  and electronic dub have decent-sized scenes in Europe and the influence
  of dub can be heard in some recent trends such as jungle and drum'n'bass.

  If you'd like to hear some dub the Mad Professor v. Massive Attack album
  I've mentioned is probably a good starting place for modern dub.  For
  really good original Jamaican dub I very strongly recommend the Augustus
  Pablo album "King Tubby Meets Rockers Uptown" or the collection "Dub Chill
  Out" which prominently features the work of King Tubby, the undoubted
  master of dub music, as well as tracks by other influential dub artists
  (Prince Jammy, Augustus Pablo, Scientist, etc..)


#18 of 97 by senna on Thu Jul 31 22:14:03 1997:

John Williams at the very least is the best composer in the last fifty years,
probably more.


#19 of 97 by mcnally on Fri Aug 1 06:25:23 1997:

 !


#20 of 97 by lumen on Fri Aug 1 08:49:47 1997:

Thanks, Mike-- that makes sense, as I remember alternate versions of singles
I've heard labeled as dubs.  Duh-- I should have known that.  But more
specifically, what are known as dubs are tweaked versions where samples of
vocals (either from the song or elsewhere) are sprinkled throughout the song,
at least as I understand it.  Else, how would you distinguish a dub from a
mix or even a remix?

As for Williams, describing him as 'the best composer in the last fifty years'
is rather subjective.  Indeed, he has been one of the most influential and
one of the most popular.  Elmer Bernstein is another very, very influential
movie soundtrack composer (some of his credits include _Ghostbusters_ and _To
Kill a Mockingbird_) who had written music for the silver screen long before
Williams, but he is not as well known.


#21 of 97 by senna on Fri Aug 1 23:27:08 1997:

Finally, I've found one well-known movie theme since 1975 that Williams
*hasn't written (Ghostbusters.  I posted something about this a few months
ago.)  Every time I hear a movie theme that I think is good and might have
a chance, John turns out to be the composer.  With Star Wars, Superman, the
Jurassic Park movies, Jaws, and a multitude of others, it's almost impossible
*not* to hear John Williams music at some point or another.  


#22 of 97 by lumen on Sat Aug 2 06:23:40 1997:

Well, Ray Parker Jr. wrote "Ghostbusters."  It's likely that the producers
thought using his song as the main theme would better promote the movie and
ensure its success, as Elmer Berstein wrote a theme song as well, but it is
near the end of the album, listed as "Main Title Theme (Ghostbusters)".  It
was one of the last movies where all of the music in the soundtrack album was
actually incorporated into film footage (as opposed to those albums labeled
"Music For and Inspired By.."


#23 of 97 by dang on Sat Aug 2 17:32:06 1997:

I appreciate John Williams for his music, not for the movies.  I have several
of the soundtracks, and listen to them. 

BTW, for what it's worth, WQRS, the classical station here, gives Williams
equal air time with Bach and Mozart and the rest.


#24 of 97 by flem on Sun Aug 3 01:53:03 1997:

In response to the idea that John Williams has just one style which he
recomposes for every soundrack, don't forget the soundtrack to Schindler's
List.  


#25 of 97 by lumen on Wed Oct 8 00:05:20 1997:

Well, I'm finally settling into music ed here at Central.  I'm taking a
general music methods class, and I am learning through my texts, Music
Educators National Conference (MENC) news, and other sources that music
classes are in danger of being cut west of the East Coast (where music seems
to be firmly established).  I will have to post here later what Wynton
Marsalis had to say to the public-- it was a grim statement.  Essentially,
he said that we were dying from the inside-- neglecting our cultural strength.
Keeping up with Japan was secondary.

Mr. Holland's Opus dealt with this subject, too.  That particular movie sums
up a lot of the challenges a music educator faces.

More to come, as they used to say on the Tonight Show..


#26 of 97 by tpryan on Mon Oct 13 03:10:39 1997:

<drift on>
        Why does Johnny Carson have small hands? 
A:      Wee paws for a message from our sponsors.
<drift off>


#27 of 97 by lumen on Thu Oct 16 02:37:32 1997:

Aw, couldn't we have stayed on the subject?
I'm having a fun time learning Zotan Kodaly's teaching method, btw..


#28 of 97 by goose2 on Fri Oct 17 12:37:28 1997:

Say Lumen, is Dr. Rivard still on the faculty?  He used to teach Theory III.
Also, if you can get Dr. Albrecht for Theory I it's a good thing.  She's
tough, but you'll learn.
(CMU music school dropout)


#29 of 97 by lumen on Mon Oct 20 03:59:46 1997:

Um, Chris, I go to Central Washington University in Ellensburg, Washington.
Don't know them, and couldn't tell you.


#30 of 97 by krj on Tue Oct 21 13:31:18 1997:

Jon:  I've been trying to noodge Leslie into responding here; but 
her own schoolwork has sucked up all over her time, especially with 
Gilbert & Sullivan rehearsals.  She did believe that she aced her 
first exam, in 19th Century Music History; she's somewhat more concerned
about Thursday's exam in Music Theory.


#31 of 97 by lumen on Wed Oct 22 01:20:50 1997:

That doesn't surprise me-- theory is always much more demanding.  What kind
of theory does she have to take for her Master's?

(Jon is glad he is only reviewing 1st-year music theory-- he couldn't stand
more, nor does he believe he'll need it)


#32 of 97 by krj on Thu Oct 23 04:06:10 1997:

Leslie's course is a review of the first two years of undergraduate
music theory.  


#33 of 97 by lumen on Thu Oct 23 05:00:03 1997:

Bleach!


#34 of 97 by goose2 on Mon Oct 27 22:24:24 1997:

Sorry Jon, I saw Central and assumed Central *Michigan*.  


#35 of 97 by lumen on Tue Dec 2 07:57:54 1997:

I've been studying the history of music education, and I read about the Ann
Arbor Symposium of the 70's and 80's..where they made a link once again to
child psychology.  ken, Leslie..comments?


#36 of 97 by krj on Tue Dec 2 15:11:15 1997:

Leslie didn't live in Ann Arbor until '87, and I didn't live in Ann Arbor
until '90, and I don't think either of us ever heard of this before...
sorry..


#37 of 97 by lumen on Fri Dec 5 02:05:03 1997:

What a tragedy!  This was a monumental moment in music education history! 
I was hoping to generate some discussion, because we talk truckloads about
personal enjoyment of music, but little of music education, especially in the
public schools..if I remember right, the U of M has a wealth of music
resources.. my theory teacher once lived by there (once had the Detroit
attitude, too)

Anyway, I mentioned this since I had to write a 10-pg essay on my philosophy
of music education.  Net resources like this are killer for educating ppl on
the values of music :)


#38 of 97 by lumen on Fri Jan 9 03:12:07 1998:

Speaking of the Internet, I learned that the Web has excellent resources for
classical guitar, including musical scores for sale, webpages containing
detailed instruction on playing the classical guitar (one was of incredibly
masterful quality) and what to look for in buying one, etc., and descriptions
of flamenco, Classical, and New Guitar styles.  It's incredible!


#39 of 97 by orinoco on Fri Jan 9 04:50:56 1998:

Neatness.  Now I just need to learn how to play the *#^%&$*! thing. :)


#40 of 97 by lumen on Sat Jan 10 00:20:04 1998:

It's not that hard-- I've learned to play basic guitar styles in about a year
or so.  Consistent practice every day helps-- even if it's only 15 mins.

If you're serious about playing classical guitar, you have to remember that
the instrument, care of the fingernails, and position is *everything*.  This
formal genre is demanding, but the key is to play relaxed, and be in a
position that's comfortable.  Follow what good teachers tell you-- the formal
position of holding a classical guitar was developed over centuries.

Don't take my word for it, of course-- I'm just a rookie.  But most of the
experienced guitarists I've talked to will support what I read.


#41 of 97 by diznave on Fri May 15 17:49:39 1998:

Now if you aren't as interested in being able to read music for guitar as you
are being able to play completely improv., I offer the following suggestion.
Assuming that you enjoy listening to music, hold the guitar, whenever you are
in your home, and just sitting around listening to tunes or watching tv or
a movie. Start trying to play along with the music. This is how I learned how
to play guitar and recorder (except I play while I drive....well, the
recorders).



#42 of 97 by lumen on Sat May 16 00:48:14 1998:

I'm sure that's how the old musicians did it-- but it helps to have a
methodology so it can be a skill.  Believe it or not, it helps with improv,
too.


#43 of 97 by diznave on Mon May 18 14:31:44 1998:

I agree Jon. I'm having to learn how to read for recorder, so I can join my
school's renaissance (sp?) ensemble. I've been wondering the same thing. How,
after all these years of playing stricly improv, will learning to read
recorder music affect my improv. I can't wait!



#44 of 97 by lumen on Mon May 18 22:51:44 1998:

Well, I'll bet you can guess how it helps-- it just provides a stable base
to build on.  Practicing music like a craft may not always be spontaneous,
but it certainly helps you imagine new ideas faster.  Remember, many of the
great Baroque and Classical composers were also accomplished improv players.
The cadenza is one example of freeform we've discussed elsewhere.

But you knew all that, right?


#45 of 97 by diznave on Tue May 19 14:44:32 1998:

Heh heh heh....Jon, I learn new things every day. This would explain why
improvising over Baroque, Renaissance, and earlier is so much more fun and
easy, than trying it over top of post Baroque 'classical' music. I live,
breathe, eat, and drink cadenzas, by the way.



#46 of 97 by lumen on Thu May 21 01:27:28 1998:

Explain-- how do 'new things everyday' make the incredibly scientific art of
the Baroque (composers carefully calculated what harmonies and sounds would
bring about certain emotions-- calculations that could be debated) and the
modal tendencies of Renaissance and pre-Renaissance music easier?  I take it
you're a performer, then, if you consume all things cadenza.  (Some of us
can't really do that, so we're educators.)


#47 of 97 by bookworm on Fri Mar 12 06:07:46 1999:

I'd like to write a song (I hope).  My only problem is that I have no 
training, no music, and no lyrics all at the same time.  I'll 
occasionally get music or lyrics but never both.


#48 of 97 by tpryan on Sun Mar 21 15:03:01 1999:

        No writing volume from me, but I have written a few songs, 
and have written some parodies.  The song may seem more like a
poem, as I could not communicate how someone else may sing them.
I would take someone very patient to hear me sing one of my songs,
figure out what notes I should be hitting, them translate it to
paper.


#49 of 97 by lumen on Wed Mar 31 04:54:14 1999:

I've been a music student for quite a long time, but I've never quite 
possessed the patience to get good at composition.  In a flash of 
inspiration, I had an opening to a rag come to mind, so I scribbled it 
down.  I'm still waiting for John to give detailed feedback on the 
manuscript; I mailed a copy to him.

My father composed a folk guitar accompaniment and melody to a 
well-known children's bedtime poem, turning it into a lullaby.  If I 
could figure out a way to arrange it for studio production, then I would 
record it, if I could find a way to improve upon the simple folk 
arrangement as played on a classical guitar.
(Voice effects?  Multitracking?  Bells?  Windchimes?  Hmmmm...)


#50 of 97 by orinoco on Thu Apr 1 03:05:24 1999:

Generally, attempts to "fancy up" a simple arrangement turn me off.  If you've
got a particular effect in mind, go for it, but I think mucking around with
multitracking and windchimes and whatnot is inviting disaster.


#51 of 97 by lumen on Thu Apr 1 06:02:04 1999:

It could profit from a piano line.  Actually, Dan, I do have something 
in mind-- it just hasn't been fleshed out yet.  I've listened to 
recordings of a few folk artists that use fairly minimal production.  
The closest analogy I could think of was Roger Whittaker's recording of 
"Winken, Blinken, and Nod," another children's poem set to a lullaby 
melody, but the instrumentation wouldn't fit this setting of "The 
Sugarplum Tree."  Whittaker's recording is sort of jazzy-- string bass, 
flute, and vibes, I think.  The latter arrangement is more like the 
classical piece I've been learning-- Romance.


#52 of 97 by tpryan on Sat Apr 3 04:37:11 1999:

        I just got done listening to a recording of me singing.
        <shudder>


#53 of 97 by lumen on Wed Apr 7 04:43:32 1999:

How was it bad?

Reminds me of how voice coaches, sound studio engineers and private 
teachers have jobs.

But I'm sure it wasn't that bad.


#54 of 97 by tpryan on Tue Apr 13 22:05:31 1999:

        I messed up the words on the second and messed up the timeing/phrasing.
so, for something humorous, it messed up the humor.


#55 of 97 by bookworm on Fri Apr 23 23:36:39 1999:

That bites.


#56 of 97 by lumen on Wed Jan 12 01:58:10 2000:

Wow, this item's been dead.

One of the things that I continue to find frustrating is that so much of 
the general public still talks about the music they listen to rather 
than the music they *make*.  Although the GREX community has some 
notable musicians, most the recent talk has still been regarding 
listening to recordings (hmm, music to work on the computer by?).
Now of course, not everyone turns away from musicianship because of poor 
schooling, but general music education has been suffering for years.  
Master teachers have made note of it a number of times.

I read an article by a noted music educator who said many, many schools 
suffer from an "elitist" virus.  Music programs are much too 
competitive, and there is too much emphasis on the Western European 
tradition when so many other cultures have contributed to modern music.
Elementary programs may be adequate, but interest in musical studies 
tend to sharply drop after then because of this narrow focus.  I've 
heard students say they love listening to music on a particular radio 
station but say they hate music class.  With such a wide gulf between 
what kids listen to and what we teach them, how can we compete?

Most of the journals and magazines published by MENC and other interest 
organizations have suggested many ways to incorporate new styles of 
music into music education.  But I still see the occasional teacher who 
believes that kids come to school with their minds empty or full of 
trash, which needs to be instead filled with the "good stuff."  MTV, 
apparently, is junk.  What is taught in the school is "good stuff."


#57 of 97 by orinoco on Wed Jan 12 02:23:42 2000:

I think that sort of attitude is well-meaning, especially since even if you
don't watch MTV or listen to the radio it's hard to be in school and not pick
that stuff up by osmosis.  The idea seems to be "they'll listen to that stuff
of their own accord, so let's play 'em some stuff they _won't_ necessarily
listen to."  Of course, it's a short step from that to "they listen to crap
anyway, I might as well force some _real_ music on 'em."  


#58 of 97 by lumen on Wed Jan 12 17:44:21 2000:

well, I have an opportunity to write a paper on my music philosophy 
again, and I will likely defend commercial music with a vengenance.

Mozart loved the music he heard in the taverns and elsewhere among the 
common folk.  It is said many of his compositions were beautifully 
crafted from the folk tunes he heard while growing up.  So why do some 
music educators have a different attitude?

My general opinion is simply this-- music is the manipulation of sound 
to express emotion.  Because everyone has a need to express that 
emotion, all music should be regarded as having value, no matter what 
the pompadours, scholars, or effete snobs say.  I think music has been 
influenced for centuries (or even millenia) by money-- there is a 
marked difference between the music for the rich and the music for the 
poor.

I would argue that difference still remains today, really.  I also 
think human development is a factor; we all note that people may listen 
to different kinds of music during their life span-- at the very least, 
different age groups have been observed to have different musical 
tastes.

Scientific research also supports the theory that sensitivity to sound 
changes with age.  The tolerance for frequencies at high volumes is 
reduced, and some people lose the higher end of their hearing (the 20 
kHz- 2000 Hz range, I believe-- I'm sure it differs).  Medical 
conditions will also effect that sensitivity, especially in cases of 
spinal injury or disorders.  I remember my father's musical tastes 
changing drastically-- but part of the reason has been that he has a 
spinal condition and some music just *literally* rattles his nerves.

Interestingly enough, the public's musical tastes are still very 
conservative in the long run.  The soundtrack to the new Disney film 
_Fantasia 2000_ is still entirely classical, and it seems to speak 
toward that regard.  I think the challenge of music educators is to 
allow the kids to have those tastes that appeal to them during their 
younger years, and successfully introduce music that they will NOT 
necessarily accept at the time, but may immensely enjoy later in life.



#59 of 97 by dbratman on Wed Jan 19 23:14:49 2000:

There was a fairly extensive music-education program in my 
elementary school district (early-mid 60s), but it made absolutely no 
contribution to my later love for classical music.  I was simply too 
young to appreciate the stuff, and that was that.  When I did make the 
discovery at the age of 12, it was my parents' records, radio stations, 
and public library records, in that order of importance, that were my 
teachers.


#60 of 97 by lumen on Thu Jan 20 03:03:12 2000:

there is a strong argument in education that learning is influenced by 
factors in the home.  There has been research done that suggest much of 
musical talent is merely exposure-- c.f. the Suzuki method; 
correlations between singing ability and parental 
involvement/encouragement, cultural emphasis on music, etc.

In short, if your family and your culture appreciates music and 
encourages you to make it, you'll do much better than if they didn't.

What we are trying to do as music educators is reach students that 
might not be exposed to music.  There has been *way* too much emphasis 
in modern civilization to consider music as a passive experience-- 
something to be listened to by a few, rather than an active experience--
 a pasttime to be enjoyed by many.

I think we don't sing and dance quite as much as we used to, I guess. 


#61 of 97 by scott on Thu Jan 20 15:01:54 2000:

Yeah.  It's kind of depressing to see a nonmusical coworker who obviously
never plays any music for the child...


#62 of 97 by orinoco on Thu Jan 20 19:46:30 2000:

I'm not sure if there's any real correlation between music in the house as
a child and musical interest.  About half of my musical friends grew up
surrounded by music; the other half are constantly needing to persuade their
parents that listening to and making pretty noises are worthwhile pursuits.


#63 of 97 by lumen on Fri Jan 28 05:12:48 2000:

No.  I was not referring to musical interest, really.  I was referring 
to musical talent.  If more people were confident about it, however, 
there might be more musical interest, in the which case it would be 
distantly related.

One thing that I think is a shame is that music just doesn't seem to be 
much of a pasttime anymore _because_ so many Americans are diffidant 
about producing music.  I remember a little coffeehouse I went to in 
Walla Walla that was just off the Whitman campus called Pangea.  They 
would have a drum night every so often where you could bring your own 
drum (or play something that was available) and just play as you 
pleased.  I haven't seen that elsewhere.

I don't whistle when alone; I often sing, but even I stop when someone 
walks by.  Ironically, the person is kind enough to let me know that 
they found it pleasant.

On the other side of the coin, writers to the Music Educators Journal 
are pointing out to music educators that they are behind the times, 
especially now that our culture has shifted from being a performing 
culture by necessity (before recording technology) to a listening 
culture in majority, thanks to these advances in technology.  So now 
only a few choose to perform, and yet teachers still teach as if 
performing is almost all important, and the needs of the listening 
majority are not met.


#64 of 97 by dbratman on Sat Jan 29 00:11:57 2000:

Because the teachers are musicians, and to musicians, making music is 
what counts.  Listening to it, unless the performers are of supreme 
quality, is much less interesting.

Or so the musician I'm married to says.  (Me, I'd rather listen.)


#65 of 97 by lumen on Fri Feb 4 04:49:46 2000:

On the surface, that's a fairly accurate statement.  When you study 
music so much, you do tend to disseminate it a bit more than those who 
view it more a passing fancy or as recreation on the side.

Again, as I said, it used to be that more people *had* to play music in 
order to enjoy it as often as we do today.  We just didn't have the 
technology available that would play it as a whim, so learning how to 
make music was rather necessary.

It also used to be that music really wasn't played twice very much, and 
when it was, it was often re-arranged for the particular performers or 
the occasion (as in the case of Handel's Messiah).

But it's much, much more complicated than that.  Too many schools suffer 
from what master educator Charles Leonhard calls the "elitist virus" 
(Music Educators Journal, Nov. 1999).  The Western European tradition is 
overemphasized to the point of diminishing attention to other music.  
Students have to get their education from MTV, VH1, CDs, the Internet, 
and contemporary music periodicals.  What's interesting is that they are 
responding to and critiquing music on their own, and educators have 
failed to help.  Why?  The big problem is that many music educators have 
not really recognized how technology has shaped the creation, 
communication, and critique of today's music.

I'm including this paper in the next response.  Beware, it's very long 
at about 10 pages.


#66 of 97 by lumen on Fri Feb 4 04:50:48 2000:

Jonathan Pratt
February 1, 2000
Instrumental Music Methods

MUSIC EDUCATION FOR THE MASSES:
My philosophy of music education

        I'm really a philosopher at the core-I spend hours thinking of 
possibilities on any given idea.  A love of learning, and of education, 
has grown out of that.  My next passions are experiencing music and 
teaching children, so my philosophy of music education is a very strong 
one.  I believe it should be for everyone, and the mission of developing 
appreciation for the musical arts must be at its core.  From my 
observations, that is not what music educators have been doing, however.
Charles Leonhard (1999) articulated many of the frustrations I have been 
feeling ever since I began formal music studies.  His article appeared 
under the "Grand Masters Series" section of the November 1999 MEJ.  He 
has been a distinguished teacher, lecturer, and author in music 
education for more than six decades, and he relates what he has seen in 
the past for music education to suggestions and ideas he has for its 
future.  He implies that music educators have failed to keep music an 
integral part of the education of all children, and that many are behind 
the times in teaching how much it has grown and changed.
"In my experience," he writes, "many music educators have been unable to 
adjust to a changing social structure, the revolution in communication, 
and contemporary developments in music itself."  The result has been 
what he calls the "elitist virus," or an attitude that leads conductors 
to concentrate too heavily on difficult music or music contests, and 
many students are trained primarily in folk and art music of the western 
European tradition, or "pale imitations thereof."  He also explains that 
like many other subjects of art, music education has divided itself into 
specialized branches that have grown to compete against each other and 
virtually destroy any sense of unity of purpose or cooperation.
He gives many detailed suggestions to improve music education programs, 
but the crux of his argument is to add or more strongly emphasize areas 
that have been neglected or overlooked.  He suggests study in an art 
subject other than music is helpful, and urges emphasis of aesthetics, 
art criticism, and history of music.  He adds that students should be 
provided with a broad learning experience that goes beyond the scope of 
traditional music and includes styles of other ethnic groups, 
contemporary art music, and contemporary popular music.  Finally, he 
emphasizes the importance of educational technology in instruction and 
assessment of achievement.  I was deeply impressed by this article 
because the author articulated frustrations that I had with my music 
education for years, and validated what I intend to do in my teaching.  
Hopefully, my colleagues will follow suit.
        What he calls the "elitist virus" is something that I have 
observed myself and believe to be a terrible problem, even the root 
cause of our failure to keep music education in the schools.  I think a 
lot of kids believe they can't relate to what the schools call music 
because too many teachers insist on clinging to tradition.  I have also 
seen some music educators regard what their students listen to as 
invalid.  I have heard some dismiss music on MTV and the commercial 
scene in general as music that is merely about sex (sorry, Mr. Gookin). 
 In my honest and humble opinion, much of music has had that persuasion 
in mind, including that of the Western European tradition.  I have also 
sensed that some consider popular music to be rather worthless.
        I watch MTV and VH1 quite a bit to stay informed of current 
events in popular music, and I do believe that children and adolescents 
are exposed to a variety of music through these cable stations, as well 
as CDs and the Internet.  I consider it to be my other source of music 
education.  I agree with Leonhard that "they are responding naturally to 
its expressive effect, thinking about it, talking about it, serving as 
critics of it, making choice about it, and using it to enrich their 
lives."  It is a shame that this is not adequately addressed in school.
        Supposedly, the Information Age is bringing much of the world 
closer together than ever before.  Music composers are experimenting in 
many new elements they have discovered thanks to these communication 
breakthroughs.  Many music educators do not seem to be adequately 
presenting how technology has brought music of the world together, 
however, nor how it has impacted the creative process of making music in 
general.
        I also believe music teachers can no longer neglect the idea of 
interdisciplinary studies.  Even if music programs cannot be structured 
to work jointly with other subjects and the teachers that teach them, 
educators should provide students with the tools they need to discover 
how they do relate to each other, and they should seek assistance from 
these other teachers.  With the trends of this Information Age pushing 
ideas forward, we must realize that these connections are more 
imperative to our student's survival in life.  One excellent project I 
have seen that has brought a community together was the Kamiakin 
High/Kennewick High school production of Fiddler on the Roof in 
Kennewick, Washington.  The instrumental, choral, and theater arts 
programs came together for a magnificent show the community has long 
since remembered.  The Jewish people of the community were also 
consulted for cultural practices, and historical research was done and 
put up on signs that decorated the entrance, educating the people about 
Sephardic Jews like the ones in the story.
        Furthermore, we cannot underestimate the power of networking 
that has come about with the exchange of information, especially through 
the Internet.  I believe burnout is a frequently discussed subject 
because many teachers have not learned how to use resources that are 
available to them.  Multimedia, of course, is one.  I already implied 
that teachers should become knowledgeable about popular music through 
MTV, VH1, and CDs (and, I should add, contemporary music periodicals); 
it is only fair to use the same kinds of resources to teach traditional 
music, PBS being one of them.  The Internet is also a fabulous resource 
for information, free and commercial sheet music, instruments, and so 
on.  
        Teachers must also turn to their communities for classroom 
resources, and for service.  Loyalty and help can be built if teachers 
show how music can enrich people's lives by giving to their communities. 
 As I pointed out with the Fiddler production, this can result in 
excellent partnerships.  Leonhard suggests that they might receive 
instruction in the school's electronic piano laboratory, or that they 
might be invited to participate in school performing groups if they 
played an instrument or sang when they were younger.  Independent music 
teachers may also be in the community, and they can provide a lot of 
help to struggling directors.
        I also have sadly observed as Leonhard has that music educators 
have grown specialized to the point of competition.  I remember a bitter 
rivalry between the band director and the choir director of my high 
school.  What didn't help was that the choir director had been 
recruiting me ever since middle school.  He had wanted me to be a part 
of an extracurricular group then, but never at that time nor in high 
school could I take choir and band simultaneously.  When I began my 
studies at Central, I was a Choral Education minor.  When I met up with 
him during a contest we were hosting, he said he was glad I was studying 
"the true musical art" or something to that effect.  I had to abuse him 
of that notion; in fact, I later changed the minor to a Broad Area 
(choral and instrumental) music education major.
        It is also very sad that instruction in synthesizer and guitar 
is rarely made available in the schools.  If teachers should give 
contemporary music equal ground with traditional music, then these 
instruments, which are a staple of said contemporary music, should be 
given more attention.  I myself am a great enthusiast of these 
instruments, but I find myself studying them outside the scope of my 
main coursework.  It is very frustrating, too, as I fancy myself 
primarily a classicist in my guitar studies and wonder why even chamber 
guitar studies are not promoted.
        I have also noted that some authors of music education articles 
have pointed out that performance is too overemphasized.  While I agree 
that our culture has shifted from a performing culture by necessity to 
primarily a listening one thanks to communications technology, I will 
agree with Leonhard that performance must be key.  The secret is 
properly addressing listening, improvisation, and composing in addition 
to performing, in a balanced amount, to promote musical literacy.
        I must point out that as I stressed earlier, the musical tastes 
of the students must be considered.  If it is possible to teach the same 
musical concepts with contemporary music the students prefer, then so be 
it.  I understand that it is important to teach the traditional Western 
European music because it is considered foundational, but it is at heart 
only a very refined tradition of just one culture.  I think the 
aforementioned skills of performance, listening, improvisation, and 
composition will run much more smoothly if a variety of styles are 
considered.
        It is possible that students may not fully appreciate the 
masters until much later in life.  I think it is for a simple reason so 
many educators have forgotten: a composer writes music to express her 
emotions about her inner self and the world about her.  That very thing 
will vary widely depending on world history, the age of the composer 
when the piece was written (for psychological perspective will change 
with growth and experience), economics, social purpose of the music, 
socioeconomic status of the composer, mental health or regular mood of 
the composer, and other social factors.  I have discussed this point 
with friends, including Sidney Nesselroad of the CWU voice section of 
the Music Department.  He seems to believe that music serves such a wide 
variety of purposes that it is only logical that it should enjoy the 
diversity of expression that it does.
        I am therefore suggesting that some music be presented to 
students written by composers who were experiencing similar lives that 
they now live.  I think that this will ease some of the performance 
anxiety some students feel, for I know many people of all ages sing and 
dance to music, often when they think no one is looking.  I honestly 
believe that students should feel free to perform without fear of 
failure, and I think music they are most familiar with and comfortable 
with may help ease the process.  I think the "elitist virus" has caused 
a lot of these students to abandon music education and an opportunity to 
perform.  When I was a student at Whitman College in Walla Walla, 
Washington, I sometimes went to a little coffee house called Pangea that 
held a drum jam session every so often.  People were free to bring their 
own drums, or use what was provided, and play to their heart's content. 
 It is a shame when we shower our babies with musical toys and singing 
but do things that encourage them to give up performance later in life.
        Leonhard also suggests in the article that beginning 
instrumental instruction should be provided all through the middle and 
high school grades to reclaim students "who have been passed over."  I 
would add that would be an excellent opportunity for students to take a 
second look at instrumental music.  I've heard a story or two from 
people who said they loved band but hated their middle school/jr. high 
school director.  In fact, I was able to gain the respect of one such 
person who had a bad middle school experience.
        Improvisation keeps a jazz program strong, as Leonhard writes, 
and it's necessary education for every jazz student.  I believe, 
however, that it would be an excellent tool for the classical student.  
Baroque and Classical era composers such as Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart 
were proficient in improvisation.  While I do not propose overthrowing 
current pedagogical practices, or condemning practices of 19th and 20th 
century composers, I do suggest that improvisational study would be 
useful for those involved in classical work.  I believe it would help 
strengthen compositional skills and even help prepare such students for 
jazz improvisation, when their perspective has been more formally 
shaped.  I think it may in turn help chamber musicians to better 
appreciate jazz music.  I remember CWU Director of Orchestras Paul Cobbs 
exclaim to one of my theory classes, "Mozart would have loved jazz 
music."
        Since Mozart was noted to not be above listening to music of the 
common people (he loved to listen to guitarists in taverns), I should 
point out that composers would be a great asset in meeting the 
aforementioned challenges I have made.  Many composers, like their other 
art creator counterparts, are looking for new ideas and often do embrace 
the variety of music I have described.  They can be a great resource to 
help educators teach musical principles, and they can remind students 
that it is not necessary to be dead to have your music recognized.  In 
fact, I believe composers and performers alike should be allowed to 
visit classrooms to provide role models to students alike.  They should 
have opportunity to visit even if the educator is a prolific performer 
and composer.
        I am a strong advocate of general music studies, perhaps because 
of my experience in music education.  My first elementary music teacher 
was a bit wild and free-- and that was the good part.  He was able to 
show me the vivacity of music that precious few have ever done.  The 
rest of my formal education was difficult-- there was the elitist piano 
instructor, the neurotic and morally superior band directors, and the 
theory teacher who thought I wasn't going to make it.  They 
unfortunately comprised the majority of my teachers.
        The rest of my inspiration came from my parents, especially at 
the time I dropped out of music when my theory teacher said I wouldn't 
cut it at Central.  They had encouraged me to sing and encouraged my 
piano practice that gently woke them up in the morning when I was young. 
 They loved my trumpet playing and would cheer me up when I was 
discouraged and frustrated being the only tuba player in the high school 
band.  My father played folk guitar and my mother had been a church 
organist.  My father played during the evening and would sing us 
children to sleep.  My mother played at various times during church.  So 
at that time, I found myself alone, but I was either in the warm company 
of a church organ, practicing for church and learning how to play, or my 
father's guitar.  Later, I was given an old guitar of my mother's.  It 
was especially comforting to me since my father had gotten so ill with a 
spinal disease that it silenced his playing forever after that.  He had 
composed a melody and a guitar accompaniment to an old children's rhyme 
that I quickly picked up, and I vowed someday I would record it for 
others to hear.  I kept playing and started studying with my first 
teacher when I came to Central in group classes.  When my mother's 
guitar broke, I bought my first full-sized classical guitar and started 
immersing myself all the more in private classical study, eventually 
with lessons.  I am in the chamber ensemble for the first time and 
loving it.
        So I credit my elementary teacher with my professional attitudes 
and outlook on teaching, but I credit my parents for my love of music.  
They took care-- and they still do-- to instill it, and it saved me from 
a period of doubt.  I therefore believe that parents must be a part of 
music education.  Most scholarly research actually suggests that a 
musical environment in the home will merely foster musical literacy, but 
I think it may indirectly affect appreciation.  The rest is up to us, 
the educators.


#67 of 97 by scott on Fri Feb 4 20:30:05 2000:

Back a few years ago, there was a short lived afternoon TV show (not sure if
it was PBS, cable, or what) called "Rock School".  A rather PC trio (mixed
race and gender in only a trio) would break down, by instrument, some popular
form of rock.  So if today (this week's) lesson was metal, the guitarist would
talk (in reasonably easy terms) about what chords, what picking styles, etc.,
and the bass player and drummer would do the same.  At the end they'd put it
all together and show how it worked.


#68 of 97 by orinoco on Fri Feb 4 21:42:55 2000:

Interesting....

I took a "music appreciation" class in middle school that got tugged in that
direction by the class.  The teacher would ask people to suggest/bring in
favorite music, and when all that music ended up being rock....
She ended up doing a good job, actually.  She had the sense to start
discussing form and whatnot by way of the layout of songs, rather than trying
to force us to discuss classical.


#69 of 97 by lumen on Mon Feb 7 02:41:47 2000:

Another thing I thought of is a lot of music today is heavily produced. 
 I wonder if some kids get frustrated when the music they try to make 
doesn't sound as good as the music on the radio.

Some folks get close with private guitar lessons or study in a MIDI lab 
or studio, but a lot of schools don't provide these resources.


#70 of 97 by oddie on Mon Feb 7 04:45:13 2000:

Regarding the complaint about competition between different music teachers
in schools: (a fairly minor thing, but still...) It has always annoyed me
that in BVSD, at least, instrumental music is broken into band and
orchestra - if you're a string player you're in orchestra, everybody else
goes in band. It limits the kind of music you get to play, whichever 
group you fall into.
(Plus, at high school level you have to spend a lot of time playing at 
football games and pep rallies, and I at least would really dislike that.)
(And if you want to be a horn player in jazz band you have to be in regular
band as well, so you either have to give an elective like foreign language
or your lunch period...)


#71 of 97 by orinoco on Mon Feb 7 07:35:38 2000:

The impression I get is that the band/orchestra split is mostly for the
convenience of the teachers.  I can barely imagine knowing enough to teach
the full range of band instruments, much less all the band instruments _and_
strings.


#72 of 97 by lumen on Tue Feb 8 05:09:44 2000:

Right.  CWU music majors have to learn key instruments in both the band 
*and* string ensembles, which is quite a few, but most usually go 
towards the direction of their principal instrument.

Playing at football games and pep rallies may be an annoyance for some 
instrumentalists, but it keeps support for the program strong.  Without 
these functions, some programs would cease to exist; many administrators 
have been coaches and many high school districts support sports more 
than the arts due to their public appeal and public support.  Let's face 
it-- more people are going to school sports games than they are music 
functions.

Many a high school band director bristles at the idea the main politick 
is sports; but then I think many ex-coaches who become administrators 
get along much better with a wider range of students than band or even 
choral directors do.

Despite this fact, there are creative solutions.  When I was in high 
school, a few of the band students put together a rock band along with 
a non-member guitarist (typical, most guitarists are disinterested as 
few districts have guitar programs).  When we had a concert band 
performance that conflicted with a pep band duty, our director let the 
rock group handle it.

The reason why band directors require students to be a member of the 
concert band in addition to other groups is one of balance.  The concert 
band MUST be the main focus, or the rest of the program goes out of 
whack and the director usually winds up burnt out and in another career. 
Think of it like this: the concert band serves as common ground for the 
other groups, and generally holds the content that strengthens all the 
rest.  Concert band is the meat and potatoes.  The other groups are 
other courses of the meal.

Hey, I didn't like it, either.  I didn't study jazz in grade school, and 
I didn't study much in college.  It's unfortunate that jazz is so 
competitive-- I doubt I could pick up much of it now.  However, I 
managed to do a mixture of things: I *did* study Spanish, and plenty of 
other electives.  I did wind ensemble and symphony orchestra, and I 
switched my focus to vocal studies once I got to Central.  Even a 
student who doesn't pursue studies past high school can still be in the 
choir in college.

Spanish will also become indispensable in my classical guitar studies.  
As for other languages, I'm learning them a bit in my vocal studies.  
Hey, vocalists learn their foreign languages about as well as most of 
the high school students I've seen-- just enough to get the job done, 
really.

By the way, not *all* school districts split music into band and 
orchestra.  A few do have a general music course: think parts music 
appreciation, piano lab, etc.  I understand most don't, however, and 
this is because of lack of money, lack of public interest (believe it or 
not, band and orchestra get the most support, maybe for traditional 
reasons), and/or lack of teachers.

The biggest thing that will need to happen, of course, is for schools to 
realize that a diversity of music needs to be taught.  Bands and 
orchestras will lose the 'elitist virus' and the tired out focus on the 
Western European style alone, and may either incorporate a few 
nontraditional instruments (remember Mr. Holland's Opus?), or establish 
other resources through a general music teacher.

Go read my paper again =)


#73 of 97 by dbratman on Fri Feb 18 21:56:07 2000:

Well, it's a complicated matter.

On the one hand, when (for instance) the Beatles were new and wildly 
popular, they were dismissed by many people in terms frighteningly 
similar to those used not just about today's popular music, but about 
old pop trash that really has disappeared.  Yet musicologists have 
slowly come to acknowledge (Derek Cooke and Wilfred Mellers were the 
first) that Lennon & McCartney wrote songs of real musical complexity 
and sophistication, even if they didn't know notation or the 
terminology.

So to that extent I applaud the idea of, _when trying to bring music 
appreciation to the masses_, starting off by explaining pop song AABA 
form and going on from there.

But on the other hand, I really bristle at the term "elitist virus".  
For all that some rock is good, the masterpieces of classical music got 
to be called masterpieces for a reason.  (Give rock a couple centuries, 
it'll get there too.)  I am frequently called an elitist in my literary 
as well as my musical tastes, to which I reply "Yes!  I dare to believe 
that some works are actually better than others!"

If _my_ introductory music appreciation classes had been filled with 
rock, I would have walked out and never returned.  That is not what I 
went there to learn about.  There should be classes for all kinds.

Also, there is a belief, and I think it can be justified, that kids 
don't need classes to learn to appreciate rock: they listen to it 
without any classroom help.  Instruction should be for what they are 
less likely to learn by themselves.  (This is not a popular view these 
days.  It's the reason that for decades the Oxford University English 
curriculum ended at 1830, deeply annoying lazy students who wanted to 
major in reading modern novels.)

Much classical music has got what most people like in popular music: 
good tunes and a strong beat.  But it's so much more than that (even in 
the same pieces), and almost all pop isn't more than that.  I know many 
people who like the classical they've heard, but aren't tempted to 
explore further because they're intimidated by the technical and 
academic air surrounding it (much easier to penetrate nowadays with all 
the good amateurs' listening guides published in recent years) and 
because nobody's taught them to listen for the other aspects of the 
music.

The single best guide to the other aspects I've ever seen is a CD-ROM 
of Beethoven's Ninth, published by Voyager with the guide material 
written by Robert Winter, about ten years ago.  It's probably no longer 
available: if not, what a shame.  (Several other CD-ROMs in the same 
series were also pretty good.)


#74 of 97 by lumen on Mon Feb 21 18:25:43 2000:

resp:73 "There should be classes for all kinds."  That, I think, should 
be the key idea.  Perhaps I have buried my main emphasis: as a teacher, 
I would like to get more people enthusiastic about music than they 
currently are.

And perhaps I misuse Leonhard's term "elitist virus."  His concern was 
that Eurocentric music has been emphasized to the exclusion of some 
very fine music of other ethnicities and cultures, and that many music 
programs do so because directors find it easiest.

Perhaps I have a very liberal view of what music is about, but that's 
because I'm young, I suppose, and I still firmly believe that music is 
a celebration of life ALL along the lifespan.  I have difficulty 
completely dismissing commercial music as rubbish on the notion it's 
mostly about sex precisely because the target audiences ARE filled with 
hormones and have sex on the brain.

I don't disagree that some works are crafted much more skillfully, are 
more aesthetically pleasing, and/or make a stronger sociopolitical 
statement than others.  I do believe, however, that as an art form, 
music will bear the psychological mark of the age group it is intended 
for, the social context of the times, and the things the composer 
wishes to express.  Therefore, I think in cultural terms, music has not 
changed in application and purpose-- I do understand that most any time 
period had pop tunes of some sort (yes, even the Classical and Baroque 
eras, which I may be able to cite some information on).

What's also interesting-- although I would never teach this to a high 
school class-- is that the idea of sex and drugs in music is hardly 
new.  One story about J.S. Bach was that he would conduct organ 
recitals in a three-part fashion.  The first part was to play the music 
straight with no ornamentation.  The second part was to go down to the 
nearest tavern to hoist a few during intermission.  The third part was 
to play the music again with ornaments while inebriated.  Many other 
great composers fell to wine, women, and song frequently-- Mozart, I 
believe, was one of them.  (Wine, women, and song-- hrm, okay, so it's 
sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll now?)

Of course, I think many of us know about jazz musicians and marijuana.

Don't get me wrong-- I will freely admit to what music I consider well 
made, what I consider frivolous fun, and what is drivel that I think 
will die soon.

We agree on many things, but I think we express some things 
differently.  I continue to advance the notion that most all music can 
be enjoyed to a degree.  Again, I find it interesting that the great 
Mozart enjoyed the common music he heard in taverns.


#75 of 97 by scott on Mon Feb 21 18:45:26 2000:

Have you ever read "The Real Frank Zappa Book" by Frank Zappa?  There's some
really interesting insights about western music and how orchestras operate.


#76 of 97 by lumen on Tue Feb 22 02:20:42 2000:

Hrm, not sure where I'd get a copy.  I'm not sure what to think of 
Frank Zappa.  I'd heard he was considered humorous and wacky, while he 
thought of his work as all so serious (could he consider himself 
musical satirist, maybe)?

That reminds me that there are some very humorous musicians/composers 
that would definitely make Eurocentric study much easier.

I'm sure you're familiar with Peter Schickele, who masquerades under 
the farcial alias PDQ Bach to teach and present Classical and Baroque 
era music with schtick and humor.  He's got a show on NPR, right?

Then there's Victor Borge, although I think kids would have to be semi-
familiar with classical music to appreciate the humor.

Didn't Leonard Bernstein present orchestral works to children?  I keep 
forgetting who did.


#77 of 97 by orinoco on Tue Feb 22 03:30:56 2000:

Mind summarizing some of the insights for us, Scott?


#78 of 97 by oddie on Tue Feb 22 04:51:29 2000:

re:76
Leonard Bernstein used to do concerts (some on TV) performing and 'explaining'
classical music for children, though I know little about them. Wynton
Marsalis, in more recent years, did a show on PBS where he explained various
aspects of jazz and classical music for children; I remember him covering
12-bar blues, theme-and-variations, and sonata form.



#79 of 97 by scott on Tue Feb 22 15:16:33 2000:

I don't remember that much about the specific insights, just that they were
good.

Zappa can be considered a serious composer.  He had funny lyrics, but it was
definitely not "joke" music.


#80 of 97 by orinoco on Wed Feb 23 00:48:46 2000:

....and, for those still in doubt, he's also written some quite good chamber
and orchestral music.  He's got a boxed set of these out, called something
like "The Yellow Shark."


#81 of 97 by goose on Thu Mar 9 21:58:28 2000:

I can lend my copy of the Real Frank Zappa book.  I think he'd not be too
insulted by the satirist label.


#82 of 97 by dbratman on Mon Mar 13 18:26:59 2000:

resp:74  Certainly other cultures' music should be taught, as it often 
is under the rubric "ethnomusicology", but while that box can be 
considered insulting, there's no reason to be ashamed of the importance 
and pre-eminence of Western art music.

True, there's a relationship between "wine, women and song" and "sex, 
drugs, and rock-and-roll", which was probably in the minds of the people 
who popularized the latter phrase, but I do not consider it fruitful to 
try to sell classical music by emphasizing this aspect.

For one thing, it's misleading, like putting racy paperback covers on 
D.H. Lawrence.

For another, it's been done, albeit in a more genteel manner, in the 
"Lives of the Great Composers" approach to music appreciation that so 
blighted the field in the early 20th century.  And it's still going on 
now: recently on San Francisco's wretched classical station an announcer 
went on and on about Berlioz's relation with Harriet Smithson before 
finally announcing the piece, which Berlioz had written before he even 
met her, so what did she have to do with it?


#83 of 97 by lumen on Mon Mar 13 23:51:04 2000:

I don't mind classical music, but the bulk of it suggest the context of 
the audience it was written for: the aristocracy.  I am not an 
aristocrat, so I'm not always in the mood for classical music.

I have a theory that people's musical tastes change and evolve as they 
grow older and mature.  Part of this I could account for in sensitivity 
to loudness increasing with age, partial hearing loss, especially in 
the upper frequency range, and a greater desire to listen to music to 
relax rather than get riled up.

Of course, I'm overgeneralizing.  But I do think quite a majority of 
classical pieces are not necessarily suited to the very young in 
listening or playing, and more often than not, the majority of 
classical music listeners tend to be older than younger.

However, Ellen Taafe Swilich did recently compose "Peanuts Symphony," a 
work with movements devoted to various characters.  Charles Schulz gave 
his full approval and support before he died, and preschoolers 
responded very favorably to it.


#84 of 97 by rcurl on Tue Mar 14 00:35:52 2000:

Excuse me, but what is "aristocratic" about classical music? It is just
a bunch of notes strung together. How that that have social status?


#85 of 97 by lumen on Tue Mar 14 21:24:24 2000:

I am referring to the context in which much of it was written in and to 
the audience it was written for.  Granted, theme Classical era music 
were a departure from those of the Baroque in more portrayals of the 
common man, but much of this music *was* written for the aristocracy.

The breakdown of previous musical structure and increasing dissonance 
that continued after the late Romantic period and through the 20th 
century reflected a growing middle class that favored more tension in 
musical expression.  These middle class folks didn't favor the light, 
pleasing melodies that the nobility often did.  At the same time, 
musical compositions were beginning to be played much more often than 
once.  I believe it was discussed in another item, but I also think 
that improvisation began to dissapate from Eurocentric music.


#86 of 97 by rcurl on Wed Mar 15 06:25:37 2000:

What has the intended audience have to do with music written by a
composer?  Perhaps Mozart found that aristocrats would pay more for his
music than would the 'common man', but what has MONEY to do with the
interpretation of music itself? The public taste is fickle and changes
with time. Perhaps on another go-around, the 'common man' would hunger
for Mozart, and the aristocrats for polkas. 



#87 of 97 by orinoco on Wed Mar 15 08:46:54 2000:

Try this:  there's nothing inherently aristocratic about a bunch of notes on
a page, but if as a culture we've decided to consider Mozart aristocratic,
that impression isn't going to change overnight because a few people disagree.
The impression of loftiness isn't _part_ of the music, but it clings to it
pretty strongly.


#88 of 97 by rcurl on Wed Mar 15 17:14:52 2000:

Education should take care of that. Yes, I know people adopt weird fixed
ideas about things and they even become cultural norms, even though
incorrect. Take Ptolemeic astronomy, and mythical earth-origin ideas from
the past. However we have (mostly) surmounted these, and it should be even
easier to surmount ridiculous ideas about music.



#89 of 97 by orinoco on Wed Mar 15 18:43:54 2000:

There's a fact of the matter as far as the accuracy of Ptolemaic astronomy
goes, which eventually won out over "weird fixed ideas."  When it comes to
the proper interpretation of Mozart, there's nothing _but_ weird fixed ideas.


#90 of 97 by rcurl on Wed Mar 15 20:46:33 2000:

Well, yes, there is no objective measure of music. But if that is known,
then we know all subjective measures are just that - opinions.


#91 of 97 by dbratman on Sat Apr 1 00:56:09 2000:

I think I know what lumen is trying to say about Mozart and aristocrats, 
and it ties in with another remark from the same keyboard, about the age 
of listeners.  A reasonbly full appreciation of most classical music 
requires that it be approached in a certain way, with patience and an 
ear for larger-scale structure.  (I've seen the word "epic" applied to 
five-minute pop songs.  What then is left to call Wagner's 15-hour Ring 
Cycle?)

And this ear tends to be lacking among children.  It was certainly 
lacking in me at my first exposure to classical music at the age of 8 or 
9, but 3-4 years later I took to it immediately.

This ear could also be more present among 18th-century aristocrats than 
18th-century peasants, for reasons ranging from childhood training, to 
cultural assumptions, to what might as well be called eugenics.


#92 of 97 by rcurl on Sat Apr 1 07:13:49 2000:

It is easily learned. Bopping to a beat seems to be genetic. Perhaps
patience is a component of appreciating (or defining) classical music,
but not entirely. I have introduced classical music to people by
pointing out the complex *immediate* structure (counterpoint, fugue,
harmony progression, concertino, etc). It is true that there is a
*lot more to be heard* in (or defining) classical music. But it can
all be learned, and not with great difficulty (but with some willingness).


#93 of 97 by orinoco on Sat Apr 1 16:39:53 2000:

If 15 minute songs are the mark of "aristocratic" music, why aren't the
Grateful Dead considered elitist high culture?


#94 of 97 by rcurl on Sat Apr 1 17:30:05 2000:

Or "99 bottles of beer on the wall"?


#95 of 97 by diznave on Mon Apr 3 14:44:46 2000:

I don't know about elitist, Dan, but the Dead absolutely -were- considered
'high' culture.  ;->


#96 of 97 by orinoco on Mon Apr 3 16:25:45 2000:

Guess I did walk into that one....


#97 of 97 by dbratman on Wed Apr 5 17:38:37 2000:

Recurl writes, "Bopping to a beat seems to be genetic."  It probably 
is, because I have never learned how to do it: I must lack that gene.  
(I like my music highly rhythmic, understand: I just don't _move_ to 
it.)

I think the willingness to learn that is being written about is close 
to what I call patience.  The other component of the patience, of 
course, is the ability to sit still for music that's longer than 5, or 
even 15, minutes.  There's definitely an age-related aspect to that, as 
smaller children find it more difficult to sit still for anything.  
Some classical listeners, though, never develop a patience for longer 
works, and prefer 15-minute light classics all their lives.  That's OK 
too.


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