Grex Music2 Conference

Item 44: ---->the JAZZ item<------

Entered by katt on Mon May 12 00:19:09 1997:

I noticed there's not a jazz itejm on here. . .if you're into having one, here
it is! Jazz of every variety, from ragtime to Miles to Thomas Chapin to
you-name-it!
115 responses total.

#1 of 115 by raven on Mon May 12 03:41:37 1997:

Wow this is a broad yummy topic. :-)  My favorites are probably Ornette
Coleman, John Coltrane (yes including late stuff OM etc), John Zorn,
and *early* Herbie Hancock.  I think the most interesting things 
happening in jazz are things that may not be acknowlodged by the jazz
community as jazz like the acid jazz of Groove Collective, world
music jazz fusion ala Fela Kunti, Ivo Papasov, Shankar's improv violin
work, etc.  After all the heart and soul of jazz is improv and the fusion
of different musical styles, for example Dixeland jazz grew out of a
fusion of military brass band music with African rhythm and improvisation.



#2 of 115 by katt on Mon May 12 21:54:01 1997:

I agree that the jazz community isn't acknowlaging as much cool stuff as it
ought to. . .Ivo Papasov and Shankar are both so amazing and astounding. .
.I think there's been a really SAD purist movement of late, headed up by
Wynton Marsallis and the like. . .iut's too bad, because he's this incredible,
astounding player. . .
I just got that compilation of Late Coltrane, the two disc set with Om and
some other works, it's pretty amazing. 
I have millions of favorites, I guess I worship Miles Davis, especially. .
.well, esspecially pretty much everything he did. Since I'm violinist, I'm
listening to them, too. . .Stuff Smith was a genious, Tracy Silverman and MArk
Summer are super-Human, and of course I already mentioned Shakti. . .I'm way
into the Bill Evans solo recordingsa, and bill frisell, and just all kinds
of thikngs. .. 
I don't know fela cunti at all, what kind of stuff is it?


#3 of 115 by raven on Tue May 13 00:46:06 1997:

Fela Kunti is sort of jazzy afro-pop, sort of like King Sunny Ade with
with Sax solos, and brass, and very political lyrics.


#4 of 115 by krj on Tue May 13 07:11:36 1997:

I'm a moldy fig.  My interest in jazz started with Duke Ellington, 
particularly the work from the late 30's and the 1940's.  
More contemporary performers who I get interested in tend to be 
Ellington revivalists, a bit: Abdullah Ibrahim and Toshiko Akioshi.
I've made a few forays into the 1950s and the earliest 1960s with 
Miles Davis and John Coltrane, and Charles Mingus, but in general after
1960 I get lost.

I wish I had the time to learn a lot about jazz; in general I end up
settling for buying whatever is playing in Schoolkids when it sounds 
interesting.


#5 of 115 by scott on Tue May 13 11:11:23 1997:

I'm not into jazz much.  Mostly because it seems to be rather lame lately.
Sun Ra is one I like a lot, though.


#6 of 115 by raven on Tue May 13 13:43:02 1997:

re # 5 Yaaaaaaahhhhhhh Sun Ra, may he rest in peace (on Saturn).

My favorite recent jazz/acid jazz CD is Groove Collective, check out their
CD "We the People," it's sort of Sly & the Family stone meets afro-cu-bop
hip-hop.  They put on a amazing show at the Blind Pig earlier this year,
dancable music with chromatic scales, if they come to an area near you,
they are not to be missed.


#7 of 115 by katt on Thu May 15 21:34:59 1997:

hey, Carla Bley just came out with a new album!!! IT'S cool, not as crazy as
the stuff she was into in the seventies and early eightoies, but it's cool
as hell. . .it's kinda melencholy, like the stuff on Social Studies. . .
Scott-have you checked out Orange then Light Blue, or Thoma Chapin(especially
with the brass band)?


#8 of 115 by lumen on Thu May 15 22:36:08 1997:

I may not be up to date on jazz recordings, but I will leave a short note--
I respect and admire jazz musicians.  They have to know their music inside
and out, since they use improv so much more than the classical ones, and more
scales, to boot.


#9 of 115 by orinoco on Fri May 16 21:55:17 1997:

oof.  Yes, definitely.  I took a year of jazz at Commie High with Mike Grace,
and what turned me off, and eventually made me leave, was the sheer number
of scales and chords that I 'had' to know.  Now I'm coming back to jazz from
the other end, having heard more free jazz and already knowing the scales so
I can just focus on *playing* and not on 'now what key am I in again?...'
I definitely respect those who can play more 'tonal' jazz, though.  
Re the whole 'purists' thing--the problem is, there's this whole distinction
between 'jazz' and 'other music where the musicians happen to be improvising'.
Most people wouldn't call Indian classical music, or free improv, or
Stockhausen's free-er stuff 'jazz', but the line is becoming more and more
blurred from both ends.  On the one hand, jazz is opening up to outside
influences, and on the other hand, things like "Blood on the Fields" are
making the improvisation part of it secondary.


#10 of 115 by colette on Wed May 21 00:33:02 1997:

Jazz music is absoultely WONDERFUL!!  IMHO, it is also the hardest type of
music to play..just because it has to do with just letting go..and being
yourself...tath is why it is so hard for most people to ilisten to and
play..becasue you HAVE to let go..and be real with people. 
I love classical..but that is a completely different ballpark..with jazz,
you have the freedom to make the music uniquely  yours....
the only problem with jazz nowadays..is that it has become too text
book dependant..and thats beside the point..you can teach a person
the scales..but you can not teach someone how to groove..yo uhave to feel
it..I grew up in Memphis Tn..the jazz scene there is so alive..i half
expect to see Mose Vinson or Furry Lewis on Beale street.
i really like funk jazz band called "Madesque Martin and Wood"
it's jazz bass, piano, and percussion..you guys should check em
out..theres no way you can sit still in your seat when listening to thses
guys../.and that's another thing..if you hear jazz..and you feel like
dancing..get up and DANCE!!!!


#11 of 115 by katt on Fri May 23 16:58:51 1997:

orinoco-when did you go to Commie High? I graduated in '92
Yeah, there has been a sorry movement to try and standardize jazz of late.
Especialy frolm Wynton Marsalis. Which is sad. I thinm the most exiting,
amazing thing about it is that it's been new and developing. I had two
teachers this year, one who taught from ghe standpoint of a standardized
language and one who taught from the standpoint of free improv and third
stream music. . .and I realized that we need a wynton marsalis as much as a
roscoe mitchell, because they're both beautiful and the both define one
aother. The one branch can grow from the other. . .I just wish people wouldn't
attack each other over it. 


#12 of 115 by orinoco on Sat May 24 01:52:32 1997:

When did I go?  I still do.  Just a lowly sophomore, actually.  :)

Did you ever take any of Mike's classes while you were there, katt?


#13 of 115 by katt on Sat May 24 17:02:24 1997:

yeah, I was in the intermediate jazz band when I first started playing jazz
ever, with some other string players. And when I got tendonitous my senior
year and couldn't plkay the violi, he set me up with the vibraphone, and he
and me and this cellist all were a four o' clock band. . .and then I went over
to U of M to take Creative Arts. The string players from the intermediate band
and me formed a band of our own called Blue Sun, too, mostly free improv and
a little bit of arranging. . .
HE always turns out amaing players, man. . .I mean, a significant percentage
of the department at U of M is comprised of Commie High folks. .. 

I tink it's probably waaaay different there now than it was when I was there.
. .there wasn't really a line to get in when I was there. . .



#14 of 115 by orinoco on Sat May 24 19:23:44 1997:

I think I heard about that Vibraphone/Bass/Cello band.  Did you know someone
named Gates while you were there...I think his first name was Mo?  

I deeply disliked his class, actually.  His approach to 'improvisation' now
runs something like this--here's some good licks, here's what chords they
sound good over.  Now play them.  It wansn't really improvising at all, just
absorbing and regurgitating these patterns.

I wish I was in the position to start my own band, or do something of that
sort, so that I could remain involved with jazz but escape Mike's approach
to it.  The problem is I really have very little skill at it other than just
spitting out patterns.
Perhaps you, being more into free improv and such, could answer for me a
question that I brought up while I was taking jazz, and which I never have
heard a satisfactory answer to:  Clearly 'real' jazz musicians aren't just
spitting out these patterns that they've memorized ahead of time.  Even
listening to the advanced bands at CHS play, it is obvious that they are doing
something other than what Mike is teaching the beginning bands to do.  But
nobody can explain what it is.  Yes, there is no such thing as a 'wrong note',
but some notes clearly sound better than others in certain situations.  So
when you are soloing what is it that you are doing?  If this is something
nobody can explain, or even understand, how is it that anyone does it?


#15 of 115 by lumen on Sat May 24 20:23:51 1997:

My improv teacher explained this really well.  Jazz music, as opposed to
classical music, isn't bound by what the composer wrote.  The musicians are
free to make as many musical interpretations as they like.  Usually, classical
music is expected to be played as written.  If a jazz player approaches the
same music, he doesn't have to be perfect-- if he flubs up, he'll make the
'mistake' sound good.  Improvisation isn't necessarily all intentional.

About licks: Rock musicians sometimes learn licks by rote, too.  Not everyone
is talented enough to play what they hear and then experiment upon it.  So
some teachers provide some suggested patterns, to give you a few ideas.  If
it helps you to read it on the page, they'll provide written patterns.  But
most _good_ teachers will have you listen to recordings of the pros to give
you ideas.  I mean, you can experiment on their ideas without fear of being
sued for stealing musical motifs and such, as is usually the case in the rest
of the industry.  No real concept of plaigarism in jazz.

I guess the reason why some teachers fall short is because they get stuck in
the classical way of thinking, and I refer to the Classical era when I say
classical.  During the baroque period, it was quite fashionable to improvise
upon a song-- this is where trills, mordents, turns, and such came from.  The
theme and variations form was immensely popular-- Beethoven got his start by
making variations upon a popular composition of the time.  But the spirit of
improvisation seemed to fade away when the Classical era arrived-- composers
disdained the frills and experimentation of the earlier time.  They gradually
simplified themes.  Scholars, harkening back to the music of the Renaissance,
gave the music of the prior era its name-- baroque means 'imperfect pearl'.
To this day, I sincerely believe most classically trained teachers really
don't fully understand improvisation, or they genuinely understand that you
are creating music as you go along, instead of fiddling with it on paper. 
Improv requires tremendous skill.  Consider this analogy: it's like giving
an impromptu speech.  It's just as difficult, and it's harder to be as
eloquent as you could be if you drafted the material several times on paper.
You only get one shot to do it, and then it's heard.


#16 of 115 by katt on Mon May 26 02:09:54 1997:

And it's interesting to note further that most of the master "clasical"
musicians were them selevs improvisers; Beethoven was supposedly one of the
greatest improvisers who ever livd. 
AS far as patterns go-it's a means to an end. It's a pain to do it, but if
you pratice licks over and over, the tonal language you're dealing with in
those licks somehow works it's way into your fingers. It's kind of a mystical
process. . .hmm. Music is etherial in alot of ways, you know? I mean, you hear
this amazikng thikng in your head that you want to play, but it's not
concretye enough to just make it come out of your instrument, patterns help
you have the facility to come a litle closer. Different people have different
"ins" into playing. . .


#17 of 115 by orinoco on Mon May 26 19:25:39 1997:

I do know what you're talking about with the music in your head vs. the music
in your fingers.  For me, the patterns haven't helped much with that, though.


#18 of 115 by remmers on Tue May 27 10:56:45 1997:

Re classical music and improvisation: Slavish attention to the
notes was a 19th century attitude, I believe. Before that,
improvisation and embellishment were the norm. In performing a
sonata, e.g. by Mozart, the player was *expected* to improvise,
add ornaments, etc. As Katt points out, Beethoven was a great
improvisor. So was Mozart, by all reports.


#19 of 115 by orinoco on Tue May 27 19:41:54 1997:

Would I be correct, then, in assuming that the writing out of cadenzas is a
modern 'improvement'?


#20 of 115 by remmers on Wed May 28 02:05:55 1997:

I think so. In the classical era, a concerto cadenza was often
composed by the performer, and I imagine sometimes improvised
on the spot.


#21 of 115 by albaugh on Fri May 30 18:33:29 1997:

Let's not get too jazz-elitist about classical music:  With the proliferation
of people and music and instruments to a wider world, and making the musical
experience something a lot more people could afford and enjoy, there became
a lot larger populace of non-expert music-makers.  Not all (many?) of them
could be expected to be skilled in improvisation, let alone in knowing the
tunes.  Thus a need for more & more *printed* music.  Eventually the printers
began including a written form of cadenzas as conceived by composers or master
performers, so the inexperienced students would have *something* to go on when
learning the concertos.

All the same, I think it would be a good idea for all instumental students
to get improvisation instruction in school.  It couldn't help but make you
a better player.  I know I feel "disadvantaged" that I never got any
improvisation instruction, and our school system didn't have a jazz band
[program].  I don't think the whole responsibility for improvisation
instruction should be dumped on the jazz band leaders.


#22 of 115 by remmers on Mon Jun 2 15:07:44 1997:

Interesting. At what point did the printed scores change from
guidelines to sacred gospel, I wonder, and why did it change?
I imagine that there were additional causes besides simply the
wider availability of printed scores.


#23 of 115 by albaugh on Wed Jun 4 15:32:47 1997:

Again, I think that it was the changing body of musicians:  ameteurs need(ed)
more to go on in the music than just "ad lib".  I know that most jazz
arrangements we play in our adult "concert" band have written out licks for
the soloists.  That doesn't necessarily mean that an accomplished improviser
couldn't substitute his own interpretation over what's written, but the vast
majority of users at that performing level don't have the ability or
inclination to do so.


#24 of 115 by katt on Mon Jun 9 14:58:21 1997:

It was also that compositions started to have larger and more complex forms
and imlications in the nineteenth century. . .preformers went from improvising
their cadenzas to playing more and more through composed ones. . .and among
those, certain became favorites. Most of the cadenzas for violin concertos
at least were written by violinists. . .it and occasionaly performers will
still write their own. It's just less common. As the forms and ensembles and
the like got huger and more complex, the plaing of it had to become more and
more dependant on it's tabulature sheets. In the present, exact reproduction
of the score has, sadly, all but replaced creativity except on the subtlest
level, and less and less newer scores are performed. I do not, however, think
this is a problem intrinsic to written music as opposed to improvised music,
but a problem with people's viewpoint and attitudes towards the best way to
perform what's written on a page. 
I think one of the coolest things I've heard done with written music of late
is the Pakrovsky Ensemble's performance of Stravinsky's "Les Noces". It is
*gorgeuos*, even though it is not something I think Stravinsky would have
envisioned in a million years-and through the fusion of two very old and set
forms is the creation of something very new. 
I actualy had a violin teacher the last few years who would have his students
write their own cadezas to concertos as a matter of course. I hope that this
illustrates a trend. . .I hope to be proficient enough one day to improvise
such cadenzas. . .


#25 of 115 by orinoco on Thu Jun 12 22:02:50 1997:

For those of us who haven't been paying attention, what did the Pakrovsky
Ensemble do with/to "Les Noces" that is so interesting?


#26 of 115 by katt on Fri Jun 13 02:08:25 1997:

They're all trained classical singers *and* do traditional russion folk
siknging. Stravinsky claimed throughout his life that the piece had nothing
to do with Russian folk music whatsoever, and the only material taken from
such sources was the text; this is not true at all, but at the time STalin
was on a kick to get Russian composers to "use the music of the masses", and
he didn't want to admit to doing anything that might even vaugely impress
stalin. . .
The pakrovsky ensemble do all the singing as written in the score, exept
instead of doing it in concert music style voices, they sing it in the style
of Russion folk music which is very different. It's gorheous, I hiughly
recommend it. . .
I just listened to Marty Erlich's "New York Child". Solme of the tracks were
really amazing, and some were kind of stale and too "smooth", which suprised
me. . .anyone know any really lick-butt Marty Erlich albums?


#27 of 115 by mziemba on Mon Jun 23 07:44:53 1997:

Wow, cool.  Thanks for starting the jazz topic, Katt.  I was just thinking
that something important was missing from the music conference, and now it
isn't...
 
I suppose I'm a little late getting into jazz, so I've got a long way to go,
but I think I've made a lot of progress.  I never used to like jazz, at all.
It struck me as too schizophrenic.  Now that I've heard more, I realize that
I was merely guilty of stereotyping (as we're often apt to do with the
unfamiliar), and I've since heard things that I enjoy a great deal.  Luckily,
I've been pointed in good directions by a few people whose advice I've sought.
 
Some of the random experiences so far on my jazz journey...
 
_Blues and the Abstract Truth_, with Oliver Nelson and company, is really a
current favorite.  This one was recommended to me as a classic.  I've played
it for friends who were not into jazz and they enjoyed it very much.
 
I'm currently hoping to run across _The Charlie Parker Story_ on Savoy,
although I hear that new Rhino _Yardbird Suite_ compilation is pretty nice.
I enjoyed what I heard while watching Clint Eastwood's _Bird_ a short time
ago.
 
Of course, Bennie Goodman and Dave Brubeck...
 
Sun Ra has struck me as interesting from only a few listenings.
 
I've started my obligatory John Coltrane collection...
 
One of the more interesting finds was Bheki Mseleku, which blends my interest
in international music and jazz.
 
A good friend of mine introduced me to Bill Frisell.  I dig Bill...(and my
friend...)

I got into John Zorn via my interest in experimental music, and a friend of
the aforementioned friend.  _News For Lulu_ was one of my more recent exciting
finds.  I've also picked up _The Classic Guide to Strategy_.  Fascinating
stuff.
 
Well, that's about it, so far...


#28 of 115 by orinoco on Mon Jun 23 20:05:24 1997:

Bill Frisell--I think I heard something about him on the radio a little while
back.  Some of the music I loved, some of it I couldn't stand.  Care to
reccomend an album?>


#29 of 115 by lumen on Tue Jun 24 08:12:13 1997:

Thanks, katt-- you've articulated so many points I only vaguely understood
before.


#30 of 115 by mziemba on Tue Jun 24 08:29:29 1997:

I really like The Bill Frisell Quartet's self-titled album from 1996 on
Elektra/Nonesuch.  It feels a lot like Phillip Glass's _Koyaanisqatsi_
soundtrack, but a little more avant-garde.  
 
Or, even more interesting is _News For Lulu_, which features John Zorn, Bill
Frisell, and George Lewis.  This one's more solid jazz, but with two
interesting twists:  the material is lesser-known pieces from well-known
composers, and it's put throught the brilliantly cracked lenses of these
musicians.


#31 of 115 by orinoco on Wed Jun 25 14:02:50 1997:

Well, being as I fell asleep twice during Koyaanisqatsi, maybe I'll go for
the second :)


#32 of 115 by mziemba on Thu Jul 3 16:04:52 1997:

_News for Lulu_ is a little hard to find, but still available.  It's currently
in print on Hat Hut Records, out of Switzerland, as hat art cd 6005.  Great
album!


#33 of 115 by mziemba on Thu Jul 3 16:08:44 1997:

Just heard both _The Charlie Parker Story_ on Savoy and Rhino's _Yardbird
Suite_ collection.  Very nice.  Rhino's collection is definitely the
definitive introduction to Parker's works, as it spans multiple labels, and
is graced with fascinating liner notes.


#34 of 115 by mziemba on Wed Jul 9 12:36:00 1997:

Saw some cool jazz posters over at Stairway to Heaven.  Coltrane's _Blue
Train_, and a few others...


#35 of 115 by jiffer on Thu Jul 10 23:00:26 1997:

Mark:  You need to check out the Posters that have in Borders as well... I
forgot to tell you about the really kewl blues and jazz player posters.....
oh well...


#36 of 115 by mziemba on Fri Jul 11 07:07:33 1997:

I hadn't thought of looking there, actually.  Good tip!


#37 of 115 by lumen on Tue Jul 15 21:46:59 1997:

re #21:  Good point, Kevin.  I hope to return to my improvisational studies
when I go back to school this fall (if not immediately, sometime in the
future).  Sadly, I don't see much effort from the classical establishment.
I don't know how colleges and universities are in your area, but the only
place I could find that taught classical improvisation was Evergreen College
(Which is near the Seattle area).  Improvisational skills need to be learned
in classical music before a student moves on to jazz.  I learned myself that
to do so otherwise is a monumental and difficult task.  Jazz adds so many new
chords and scales that it is best to start from a classical base first.

Anyone-- keep me posted on what you have found was the best way to learn
improv.


#38 of 115 by orinoco on Wed Jul 16 02:16:28 1997:

What do you mean, exactly, by 'classical' improv, as opposed to 'jazz' improv.
Is it a matter of style, or of technique, or what?


#39 of 115 by raven on Wed Jul 16 14:54:19 1997:

re # 38 I would assume this would mean the improv that is allowed in some
baroque and classical era pieces such as ornaments and cadenzas.


#40 of 115 by orinoco on Wed Jul 16 15:56:22 1997:

Oh.  Right.
<administers the flying ninja forhead slap to himself>


#41 of 115 by lumen on Thu Jul 31 04:08:26 1997:

Exactly.  But I'm sure that includes learning the theme and variations form
(and if I remember correctly, this is how Beethoven got his big break-- and
I don't think he had it written down first?  the variations, I mean?)

In general, I don't think classical and baroque musicians were as extensive
in their improv as jazz musicians are and were.  Ornaments, cadenzas, and
variations on a theme have been mentioned.  I can't think of anything else,
besides the comparision of jazz's bigger chords.


#42 of 115 by mziemba on Fri Aug 1 16:38:34 1997:

Ah, found another good Zorn to recommend that's easy to find and listen to:
_The Big Gundown:  John Zorn Plays the Music of Ennio Morricone_.  This album
is a blast...


#43 of 115 by lumen on Tue Aug 12 07:28:45 1997:

re #9:  At the risk of sounding blasphemous, what about Scatman John?
His last big hit was "Scatman," a scat song with dance music instrumentals.
I'm sure some people think it's weird as hell, but it's really interesting.
The Third-Level Mix is especially well done.

I also didn't realize this man was a white guy until I walked into a Radio
Shack playing one of his new vids.  He looks a little like Leon Redbone--
long-nosed, with a big bushy moustache on his face.  The vid was pretty cool--
the engineers had pasted a clip of Louis Armstrong on a billboard so it looked
like Scatman John was talking to him.

Speaking of scat, I understand it was created by Dizzy Gillespie after WWII.
Audiotape was precious then, so musicians usually had only one take to record.
Gillespie went into the recording studio and found one of the valves on his
trumpet stuck.  Instead of bagging the recording or waiting until the valve
unstuck, he decided to go in and sing his part.  It caught on.  I've listened
to some recordings of him singing scat and he really does sound like a jazz
trumpet, except that he doesn't imitate the timbre exactly.

Bobby McFerrin is another example of voice imitation of instruments, but I'll
save it for now.


#44 of 115 by mziemba on Tue Aug 26 04:40:29 1997:

Anybody going to catch the Detroit jazz festival, this weekend?  Anybody been
to one?  Anybody want to tell some more about it?


#45 of 115 by mziemba on Sat Aug 30 07:59:58 1997:

Well, this year was another near-miss with the Detroit jazz festival.  My car
broke down, yet again...


#46 of 115 by krj on Sun Aug 31 01:09:10 1997:

Any interest in the Ann Arbor Blues & Jazz Festival?  One could walk to 
it, at least...  :)


#47 of 115 by mziemba on Sun Aug 31 08:31:58 1997:

Maybe I'll check it out, this year.  I think I actually have a day off during
the festival.  


#48 of 115 by orinoco on Sun Aug 31 13:35:29 1997:

If I can, I know I'll be going Saturday, when Medeski Martin & Wood is
playing.
(And with my luck, I've spelled all three of their names wrong)


#49 of 115 by krj on Sun Aug 31 16:36:01 1997:

OK,tell us about why Medeski Martin & Wood are appealing.


#50 of 115 by orinoco on Sun Aug 31 23:23:14 1997:

I've heard wonderful things about them from friends, mostly, who are big fans,
and it'd be nice to see what the fuss is about.


#51 of 115 by krj on Mon Sep 1 04:45:43 1997:

Well, get your friends to log in to the music conference!  :)


#52 of 115 by orinoco on Mon Sep 1 15:10:22 1997:

I'm trying, I'm trying.  I've still got a few non-geek holdouts, though, that
I'm working on.


#53 of 115 by mziemba on Fri Sep 12 06:57:39 1997:

What?  Nobody made the Detroit Jazz festival?  Nobody made the Ann Arbor one?


#54 of 115 by orinoco on Fri Sep 12 22:14:48 1997:

'Fraid not, Mark.  I would have loved to, but...


#55 of 115 by anderyn on Sat Sep 13 00:23:05 1997:

My boss spent her weekend at the Detroit one, but I'd rather be skinned 
alive than hear most jazz (well, maybe not skinned alive, but I certainly
do dislike it immensely). I' m always bummed that WDET plays that concert
on laborday weekend, since my favorite shows (Folk Like Us, Thistle
andShamrock when they had it) are always pre-empted, and it's my birthday
weekend darnit!


#56 of 115 by lumen on Sat Sep 13 05:47:42 1997:

If ya don't like jazz, why bother reading this item?  I wonder if people are
turned off by jazz for its nebulous expression, especially considering
freeform is all the rage now..or maybe it's because of the purist movement.
Twila, do you dislike Jamiraqui (sp?)?


#57 of 115 by mziemba on Sat Sep 13 07:20:50 1997:

Gosh, happy belated birthday, Twila!


#58 of 115 by anderyn on Sun Sep 14 18:41:53 1997:

Thanks, Mark! 

Seriously, I read this itme because I like *hearing* and learning
about music, and I always hope I'll find a clue to someone that I
would like. I don't know who Jamiraqui is -- could you tell me
more? 

Most of what I dislike about jazz has to do with my impatience with
long extended instrumental passages -- I am seriously biased in 
favor of voice in my musical tastes although I have learned to 
enjoy classical music and some soundtrack-type recordings. But they
seem to have a structure to them that Idon't hear in jazz...Or
is that another prejudice? 


#59 of 115 by orinoco on Sun Sep 14 22:54:10 1997:

Well, it's true that in much jazz music the only structure beyond "head - horn
solo - bass solo - drum solo - head" is pretty vague, that's not always the
case.  My preferences tend to lean towards music - Miles Davis, for
instance - that have structure in the form of gradual building or subsiding
energy, and other slow changes over the whole piece, rather than bebop which
tends to zip around too rapidly for me.


#60 of 115 by senna on Mon Sep 15 05:59:14 1997:

My main problem with jazz is that though it was invented in the same century
as, say, rock and roll, it's being shoved down my throat as more legitimate
and "educated" to listen to, while rock is some sort of passing fancy.  Still.
Why can't I be musically deepened by listening to rock?


#61 of 115 by mcnally on Mon Sep 15 14:45:30 1997:

  My main problem with "jazz" is that I find the term almost useless --
  it tries to encompass far too much..  Terms like bebop, swing, etc..
  are far more useful as descriptive tools -- saying "jazz" doesn't
  convey a whole lot more to me than saying "music."

  (btw, isn't it Jamiroquai?)


#62 of 115 by diznave on Mon Sep 15 17:17:18 1997:

Orinoco, I have similar prefrences. A wonderful example would be Miles' _Kind
of Blue_. I have mixed feelings about bebop. I have an utmost respect for the
form and the artists, such as Parker and Gillespie, but its too quick and
frantic to move me the same way free jazz or modial jazz does(check out Herbie
Hancock's _Maiden Voyage_), although because of my love for jazz guitar, I
could listen to Charlie Christian for hours at a time.  I guess the main way
I guage my interest in any style of jazz is how much I enjoy jamming along
with it. This pretty much includes any typ of jazz from the cool era on. I
enjoy tremendously fusion jazz (for example Mahavishnu Orchestra's _Inner
Mounting Flame_ or Herbie Hancock's _Mwandishi_), latin jazz, some avant garde
(Sun Ra), and free (Coleman, Coletrane). Sadly, I'm not too familiar with many
latin jazz artists. Could anyone suggest any? 


#63 of 115 by orinoco on Mon Sep 15 21:20:57 1997:

Yeah, I find jazz guitar different too - and also blues, which I can listen
to endlessly no matter how formless.


#64 of 115 by lumen on Tue Sep 16 05:55:39 1997:

Dave-- you mention a lot of jazz styles that are influenced by other genres,
save freeform.  Have you ever tried fusion, or rock that is influenced by jazz
(say, Chicago), Twila? 

Thank you, Mike-- even a spelling freak like me has to be corrected sometimes.
I knew it wasn't right.  Jamiroquai is a jazzy pop group that has been on the
British club scene for years, but has only now been given exposure in the
U.S., according to MTV news.  The group's video for "Virtual Insanity" was
nominated for "Best New Group" at the MTV Music Video Awards.

Indeed, jazz encompasses many well-defined sub-genres, but to most people,
what is termed "classical" includes chorale music, baroque, classical,
Romantic, Impressionist (Debussy's music-- he was an anomaly), neoclassical
(whichis a misnomer-- neo*baroque* is more accurate), Modern, and post-Modern.
Thus Eurocentric music genres have tended to be lumped together as well.

I think latin jazz includes salsa and meringue.  I haven't heard Willie Bobo,
but he falls into the salsa category.  Beyond that, I really haven't a clue.
You'll enjoy salsa-- it shares some of the influences carribean music does,
sparkling with the sound effects of percussion 'goodies' and smaller drums.


#65 of 115 by albaugh on Tue Sep 16 17:58:48 1997:

Re: jazz and no vocals, you need to listen to some good jazz singers with scat
singing improvs.  Pretty cool stuff...


#66 of 115 by diznave on Thu Sep 18 22:08:27 1997:

Jon, yes, I love fusion. That is, if we can agree on a definite meaning for
the term. I consider Miles Davis' style around the _Bitches Brew_ _Tribute
to Jack Johnson_ period to be fusion. I consider Weather Report around the
_I sing the Body Electric_ period to be fusion. I consider Herbie Hancock's
work on the _Mwandishi_ and _Headhunters_ albums to be fusion. I would say
the Mahvishnu Orchestra's stuff is almost *all* fusion. But then again, I
consider Blood Sweat and Tears' first album to be fusion. And I could really
stretch and say that Steely Dan's and Chicago's first few albums were fusion.
In any case, all the music I just mentioned, I truly LOVE. So, if indeed,
these examples are accepted forms of fusion, then I guess I DO love fusion.

I think that latin jazz also includes Bosso Nova. I was reading something that
Carlos Jobim said before he died. He said (paraphrasing) that that if one was
bosso at something, they were extremely good. So a bosso guitar player, he
said, was a virtuoso. I really wish I knew more about latin jazz (Brazillian
and Cuban, in particular).


#67 of 115 by lumen on Fri Sep 19 03:04:48 1997:

No doubt-- but bossa nova music was in the elevators before SpiroGyra was.
I don't know what's good, and what's fluff, but it seemed to be a minor rage
in the 70's.

You are probably right that bossa nova is latin jazz, if Fernwood is correct
that you might hear it 'in an elevator in Brazil' ("Am I in Miami?")
The Carribean, in general, retained elements of African music in a purer form
than the U.S. did.  But the Carribean is of such mixed ethnicity that I can't
guess all the influences there.


#68 of 115 by diznave on Fri Sep 19 16:18:31 1997:

Actually, at the end of the 1800's, Carribean music was a significant
contribution to the music of New Orleans that eventually became jazz. It is
not at all surprising that New Orleans was the main City where jazz developed.
Not only was the actual population of the city extremely diverse, it was also
the main major seaport in the south U.S. Ships from all over the world came
into New Orleans ports, a large number of them from the Carribean and other
parts of Latin America.


#69 of 115 by mziemba on Wed Sep 24 07:55:26 1997:

Yesterday was John Coltrane's birthday.  I've enjoyed listening to his
material in the past few years.  Arwulf, a local DJ, was doing a salute to
the man, this evening on WCBN, 88.3 FM.  Played some nice stuff...


#70 of 115 by diznave on Tue Sep 30 16:36:51 1997:

I've recently, over the past 2 or three years, started buying Coltrane. Most
of his stuff (that I've heard) I love. I've also heard some of his really
free, unstructured, Ornette Coleman type stuff that I can't seem to get into.
I really miss the Community radio station down in Tampa (WMNF 88.5). They have
the most incredible lineup of ANY radio station I've ever heard. Here in
Gainesville, the local public radio station plays amazing music as well, but
only from midnight until 5 a.m. The rest of the time, they play "classical"
music, which is okay at times, but a bit weary if you're driving around all
day (unless you have your recorder in your car with you, and you catch a
groovy fugue by Bach to jam along with).


#71 of 115 by mziemba on Wed Oct 1 15:03:00 1997:

I've heard _My Favorite Things_, _Soultrane_, and _A Love Supreme_, all of
which came pretty highly recommended.  I haven't heard too much of the more
experimental stuff, yet.


#72 of 115 by diznave on Wed Oct 1 17:27:51 1997:

Mark, check out _Stellar Regions_ and more importantly, _Giant Steps_. The
changes on giant steps are pure genuis. Supposedly, he sat in his apartment
for a year practicing the title track from this album, before he would play
it for anyone (much less record it), according to the professor who just
taught the jazz history course I was in over the summer. 


#73 of 115 by mziemba on Thu Oct 2 06:06:10 1997:

Yeah, _Giant Steps_ is next on my list to check out, actually...


#74 of 115 by diznave on Thu Oct 2 20:14:59 1997:

If you want a cool twist to _A Love Supreme_, there's an album that Carlos
Santana and John McLaughlin did called _Love, Devotion, Surrender_, that has
the tune _A Love Supreme_ . I can't remember off the top of my head if they
do another Coltrane tune on this album, but I gotta tell you, these two guys
together are incredible!


#75 of 115 by diznave on Wed Oct 8 12:20:02 1997:

How many words can you get out of the name Thelonious Monk:
  tone, sonnet, thin, moon, loon, stool, hint, knot, shot, slim, melt, ...


#76 of 115 by bruin on Wed Oct 8 14:29:16 1997:

RE #75 How about "monk?"


#77 of 115 by orinoco on Wed Oct 8 23:03:30 1997:

milk, smut, loom, think, slit...
If you allow Thelonious Sphere Monk, you can get monikers, kneeler, and
pontoons...


#78 of 115 by lumen on Wed Oct 8 23:41:43 1997:

Oh geez..


#79 of 115 by scott on Sat Oct 11 23:51:15 1997:

I'm finding that I really don't like jazz that much.  

Things in favor of jazz:
1.  Harmonically very complex
2.  Many ways to interperet songs, with interesting results.

Things I don't like:
1.  Rythmically very limited.  Sure, there's Brubeck's "Take 5", but 
that is one tune out of how many?  And it is amazing how many solos are 
just strings of 1/8th notes.
2.  Emotionally very limited.  The sound, to me, seems to be filtered 
through the "cool" filter that makes it sound "jazzy".  So it all seems 
to be in the context of a performance by people heavily concerned with 
image as well as music... entertainers, in a very nightclub sense.

And what I find really weird is the rock and jazz combinations.  Despite 
the common roots, the two forms seem very incompatible to me.  Rock 
music, to me, has a very wide range of emotion, from anger to joy to 
things in between.


#80 of 115 by raven on Sun Oct 12 04:24:09 1997:

re #79 Perhaps you have only listened to be-bop jazz ala Miles Davis.  Jazz
has an incredible range of styles from the John Cage influnced disonance
of Sun Ra, to the Latin funk influenced post hip-hop acid jazz of Groove
Collective.  I do not know how to count out measures so i can't tell you
whether either of these muscians breaks a 4/4 time signature but you might
try talking to someone who knows about jazz (maybe Schoolkids records) to
find jazz with more unususal meters.


#81 of 115 by orinoco on Sun Oct 12 19:41:28 1997:

What raven said.  If you've heard me ranting against Mike Grace earlier in
the item, that would be why - he's absolutely fixated on bebop.  
Recently, actually, I've been listening to some New Orleans brass band 
stuff - the Dirty Dozen Brass Band being my favorite.  It's probably as far
removed from bebop as jazz gets, but still recognizable as jass, and very
listenable.


#82 of 115 by mcnally on Mon Oct 13 01:07:49 1997:

  So with such a wide range covered under one term, how do you know
  what's "Jazz" and what isn't?  I really dislike the question "do you
  like jazz?" since it seems almost meaningless to me.  How does one 
  respond when the word "jazz" is comprehensive enough to include
  everything from Billie Holiday to Sun Ra to Kenny G (aieeee!) ?


#83 of 115 by orinoco on Mon Oct 13 01:52:24 1997:

Well, when you think about it "Classical" - meaning anything from Stravinski
to Gregorian Chant - or "Alternative" - meaning either ska, punk, rock, folk,
or anything else - are equally vague.


#84 of 115 by mziemba on Mon Oct 13 06:37:31 1997:

As much as we may dislike labels, they are an essential component of the
ability to grasp the unknown, or, at least, the unfamiliar.  We group things
together to make things more accessible.  By aggregating items with common
traits, we make something more familiar, and can begin to concentrate on other
details, without the distraction of examing everything at once.  Pattern
recognition is a very significant aspect of assimilating a large body of
unfamiliar information.  Understanding its limitations, grouping need not be
seen so distastefully...


#85 of 115 by jiffer on Mon Oct 13 06:40:50 1997:

I sometimes wonder if we should label music... music should be labled "like"
and "dislike" via persons personal opinion


#86 of 115 by mcnally on Mon Oct 13 15:20:38 1997:

  I don't dislike labels, I just like them to be useful and descriptive.
  To me "jazz" is the musical equivalent of "stuff" in that it is too
  over-encompassing to be very useul in drawing conclusions about the
  work to which it is applied.


#87 of 115 by diznave on Wed Oct 15 17:35:16 1997:

I agree, Mikebut no matter how specific you get in your labeling, it is always
possible to get more specific, until you have narrowed your grouping down to
a single group (or artist). So when I say that I like jazz, I would hope that
you wouldn't jump to any conclusions (like, say, that I like Kenny G), but
that you would enquire further as to what kinds of jazz I enjoy. If you tell
me you like to fly, I might ask you if mean as a passenger on a commercial
airline, or as a pilot on a private plane. That's one of the beauties of
language: it ambiguity.  ;->


#88 of 115 by mziemba on Thu Feb 12 07:06:25 1998:

I'm just getting onto Louis Armstrong.  Thought I'd listen to an introductory
collection, then jump into more.  The Oscar Peterson/Louis Armstrong album
looked like a good additional choice, now that I've enjoyed some common
favorites.


#89 of 115 by mziemba on Thu Feb 12 07:06:52 1998:

Ok, that should "into", not "onto"...


#90 of 115 by orinoco on Fri Feb 13 04:55:31 1998:

(Interesting mental image, that)


#91 of 115 by eeyore on Wed Feb 18 07:02:25 1998:

I just got a great Louis Armstrong/Ella Fitzgerald cd...theres a bunch of
REALLY great songs that the two of them do together, and there are a few cd's
of them....I like Louis alot by himself, but the  two of them as a
duet....YUM!  :)


#92 of 115 by mziemba on Wed Feb 18 20:10:42 1998:

Yeah, I think I saw that one!  I love Ella Fitzgerald, too.


#93 of 115 by eeyore on Wed Feb 18 23:43:56 1998:

There are more then just one....I had to decide between three cd's that looked
good, and a couple that didn't...


#94 of 115 by teflon on Thu Feb 19 02:18:08 1998:

I have a Satchmo/Dutchess album, which I thouroghly enjoy, espectially thier
renditions of "Summertime", and "It Ain't Nessessarily So".  The only thing
I regret about that album is that it doesn't include "Baby it's Cold Outside".
Oh, well, I suppose you can't have everything... 


#95 of 115 by eeyore on Sat Mar 7 14:40:16 1998:

One of the ones that I almost bought was a 2 or three disk set....but of
course, all the disks were sepperate.....I might still get them all,
anyway...:)



#96 of 115 by mziemba on Thu Mar 26 05:24:03 1998:

I'm almost done reading Louis Armstrong`s autobiography:  _Satchmo_.  It's
a fun read.  You get a good sense of how his good upbringing, affable nature,
and dedication carried him through some rough times, growing up.  I learned
a little bit about early 1900`s New Orleans, too...


#97 of 115 by teflon on Sun Mar 29 20:18:16 1998:

sounds neat.  I should go look for it sometime.


#98 of 115 by diznave on Fri May 15 17:38:55 1998:

The whole story of the birth of jazz, and what was going on in New Orleans
at the turn of the century is facinating.



#99 of 115 by mziemba on Sat May 16 12:55:15 1998:

Arwulf was reading some excerpts from _We Called it Music_ the other day
on his WEMU jazz show regarding Fats Waller.  The book is apparently a
collection of anecdotes by a jazz insider, and looks to be some fairly
interesting reading.  The astute Da Capo publishers put this one out...


#100 of 115 by goose on Tue May 19 17:09:52 1998:

I'm partway through Sun Ra's biography "Space is the Place: The life and Times
of Sun Ra"  This is one fascinating man.


#101 of 115 by mziemba on Fri Jun 12 00:18:07 1998:

Managed to snag a copy of _We Called it Music:  a Generation of Jazz_, the
book of anecdotes from Eddie Condon that Arwulf mentioned a few shows ago.
This apparently came out in 1947, originally.


#102 of 115 by mziemba on Fri Jul 3 12:25:59 1998:

New bio on Louis Armstrong is out, by the way.  Looks fairly well-received...


#103 of 115 by mziemba on Wed Jan 13 18:42:51 1999:

Interested in catching some live jazz this weekend?  Hop on over to Cross
Street Station this Friday, January 15, at 10:30P.  You'll be treated to
the vibrant sound of Detroit's hip-hop inflected Jazodity (that's
pronounced /jazz oddity/). Good stuff!  There's a small cover, $3-$4 -- a
small price to pay for some superior talent.  



#104 of 115 by krj on Thu Apr 29 15:05:04 1999:

So in preparation for a crass, commercial observance of Duke Ellington's
100th birthday today, I picked up three of the reissues which have been 
flooding the market.   Ellington's collaboration with Count Basie, 
FIRST TIME: THE COUNT MEETS THE DUKE, was a safe choice, since I've had 
the vinyl for 20 years.  The two bands play together to form a Really 
Big Band, playing mostly really accessible stuff.  Lots of loud playing
in the opening track, and in the inevitable "Take The A Train."  This is 
from 1961.
 
The bonus tracks are mostly interesting if you want to explore the 
early stages of the collaborative process; all but one or two are just first 
drafts, as it were.

So far, the SOUL CALL album is a disappointment.
It's a live date in France from the mid-1960s, from part of a series 
Ellington did with Ella Fitzgerald, though Ella does not appear on this 
disc.  The original album is heavy on jamming which just doesn't seem 
to go anywhere for me.  I haven't gotten to the bonus tracks yet; they 
are short versions of standards, so perhaps they will stop me from 
reselling the album.


#105 of 115 by krj on Fri Apr 30 03:52:22 1999:

I started a Duke Ellington Centennial item, which is cross-linked between
Agora and Music.


#106 of 115 by bmoran on Tue May 11 12:28:09 1999:

I went to the record show/sale last weekend in A2, and picked up a couple
of Dizzy Gillespie records. Moe Koffman Quintet w/ Dizzy playing a great
version of OOP-POP-A-DA, and of course, Night In Tunisia, and something
claiming to be "The Greatest Jazz Concert Ever". Well, it is! Recorded in
May, 1953, it unites (begrudgingly) Charlie Parker and Dizzy, and has Bud
Powell, Charles Mingus and Max Roach. Wow, this thing cooks!


#107 of 115 by mziemba on Thu May 4 15:01:28 2000:

For local folks, the new Ann Arbor jazz club The Firefly Club opens next
weekend on Friday, May 12, 2000.  It's located at the location of the old Bird
of Paradise:  207 S. Ashley between Liberty and Washington.


#108 of 115 by orinoco on Thu May 4 17:42:32 2000:

 !!   
What happened to the Bird of Paradise?


#109 of 115 by scott on Thu May 4 19:43:34 2000:

It moved to the space under The Ark on Main Street.


#110 of 115 by orinoco on Thu May 4 21:27:30 2000:

<sigh of relief>
Thought it had vanished and nobody told me or something.


#111 of 115 by kewy on Sun May 14 01:06:46 2000:

As did I, glad its still around.  I should get over there more often.


#112 of 115 by eeyore on Fri Aug 18 05:26:26 2000:

I've not yet been to the Firefly, but I've not heard rave reviews.  I might
make it there some day.  The night that I went to the new Ark, they had a $25
cover, and since I thought that it was alittle excessive, I decided not to
go that route.  But I've been meaning to get back there one of these nights.


#113 of 115 by scott on Fri Aug 18 13:00:02 2000:

I might be going to the Firefly tonight.  Louis Smith, my old jazz band
teacher, is playing (a pretty rare event these days).  Smith, despite being
a local teacher, is actually a very impressive trumpet player and has made
a few records.


#114 of 115 by kewy on Sat Aug 26 03:48:53 2000:

Your old Jazz band teacher?  I had him too.  How keen.  He's a great gu.


#115 of 115 by goose on Wed Sep 13 03:11:35 2000:

$25 dollars whas probably mroe like a 'ticket price' for a premium player
rahter than a cover charge.


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