I am entering this item because the old jazz item seems rather dead and because the music conf as a whole seems to be in need of some new discussion. So, this is it: the Year 2000 item for discussing jazz: different genres of jazz, listening to jazz, playing jazz...65 responses total.
So, as for myself: I like just about any kind of jazz, from New Orleans to fusion, but at the moment most of my interest is in jazz from the late '40s through the '60s, which is to say mostly later bebop (Thelonious Monk, I find, sounds "fresher" than most other jazz of that period due to his use of unusual harmonies and lots of chromatic stuff), modal and fusion. I am really only getting into fusion, having heard _Bitches Brew_ at a friend's house and getting out Chick Corea's _Return to Forever_ from the library. (Another two discs to go on the "buy this when I have more money" list...) _Return to Forever_ is an interesting disc, easier to listen to than _Bitches Brew_ and also influenced a lot by Latin/bossa nova as well as rock and free jazz. Bossa nova is another kind of music I like to listen to; some would probably find it too smooth and "elevator-music"-like, but it really does have some lovely melodies and solos. (Antonio Carlos Jobim is a bit like Bill Evans in the _Kind of Blue_ era in that he can say a lot with just a few notes.) I am also trying to start playing jazz (on piano) and meet with my friend Russell, who is quite accomplished at jazz on the clarinet, most weekends to play some tunes out of the fakebook. I find it difficult because if you are the piano player you basically have to make up the accompaniment at the same time as the melody (especially when there is no drummer or bass player) and also when I get all tense about it I can't do anything well...so, hopefully this is something I'll get a bit better at.
Well, since the death of the _previous_ jazz item, I've started up taking jazz piano lessons, and listening to more of the music, so here's hoping for a restart of the conversation.... Bitches Brew seemed to me to have a "steeper learning curve" than many jazz albums, but since I got into it it's also been one of my favorites. Most other fusion that I've heard hasn't grown on me nearly as much.
There's an article/opinion piece about jazz of the '70s in the current Atlantic Monthly, in which the author makes the claim that (paraphrased) the electric piano & bass in 70s fusion albums sound annoying today because they have no real reason to be there other than that their use was briefly 'fashionable' in that period. I think that's true to some extent-the two middle pieces on _Return to Forever_, one a piano/sax duet and the other a fairly conventionally structured song with piano/bass/drums/flute backing, would be rather more enjoyable for me if done with acoustic instruments. (The last piece, _Sometime Ago_ opens with a freely improv'd duet between electric piano and acoustic bass, which is wonderfully unique-Stan Clarke makes the bass sound like a flamenco guitar in parts and elsewhere also uses the bow...) But there also places, like the intro to "Return to Forever", where the smooth, pure tone of the electric piano gives it a "floating" sonic quality which can't really be done with acoustic instruments. (Hasn't Chick Corea started playing acoustic piano in his more recent work?) A friend lent me a CD called 'Realms' to listen to during my history final today. It's by a local guy called Jamie Janover(sp?) who plays the hammered dulcimer, and had a wonderfully broad range of styles-among other things he plays an adaptation of a Bach cello suite, Coltrane's "Alabama", Mingus' "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat," a Jimi Hendrix piece, a folk/bluegrassy tune he wrote, and traditionally-styled African and Indian (meaning "from India" not "Native American") pieces. Some of the pieces have a traditional jazz rhythm section, some are solo and others feature various different instruments. It was a cool CD and I will have to buy a copy, as well as try to see him playing in Pearl Street. (er, "local" above means local-to-Boulder, where I live...I wonder if it's possible to get the CD outside of this area...)
The problem with fusion is often the glaring lack of structure. "Hey, this groove sounds great, let's just do it with endless solos for about 15 minutes". Bleah.
"Sanctuary," on Bitches' Brew, is a pretty strong argument that electric piano can sound good and not just trendy -- and also, for that matter, that fusion doesn't have to be formless. But yeah, for the most part I'll agree with both. (Although, for that matter, the keyboards get on my nerves in a lot of other 60s and 70s music too...in my opinion, the one flaw in Abbey Road is that damn synth in "Because") Yeah, Chick Corea has gone acoustic, sometime in the 80s. (I think he even called his group something like "The Acoustic Band" at one point, to make sure we all noticed.
google.com quickly reveals that Jamie Janover is associated with the band String Cheese Incident and you can get the cd "Realms" at www.stringcheeseincident.com End of digression.
Chick Corea has done both acoustic and electric pretty much through his whole career. For a really cool acoustic album, try "Three Quartets". Piano, with Steve Gadd on drums, Eddie Gomez on bass, and Michael Brecker on sax. The only jazz album I ever bought!
resp:2 -- Orinoco, did you have any piano playing experience before taking up jazz lessons, or are you learning to play the instrument at the same time as you learn to play the music? And does your teacher teach improvisational skills or let you 'evolve' them on your own? I think my clarinet- playing friend Russell initially started out with a jazz teacher who had him do a lot of free, unstructured improvisation. I suppose that at the very least that must help you "loosen up" and be more spontaneous. resp:4 (formlessness of fusion) -- yes, there's some truth in that too, though if the solos are interesting it doesn't really bother me. It's not unique to fusion, though-John Coltrane's modal stuff with McCoy Tyner (_My Favorite Things_ &c) also has a repetitive accompaniment on piano (though when done on piano it is called a "vamp" rather than a "riff", dunno why...) and I love those recordings. Also on Ruben Gonzales' self-titled cd he often plays exactly the same riff/chord over and over and over again under a percussion solo, and that *does* bother me because I never find drum/percussion solos that go on for more than a chorus very interesting. (which isn't to say that I dislike the cd as a whole, because it does have some great piano playing on it-especially the darkly beautiful last track, entirely solo) resp:7 (think it was #7) -- oh goody, another cd to look out for... :)
I'd done classical piano on and off for years, and some classical theory. Mostly right now, my current teacher is doing theory and chord voicings. She's also a classical pianist who turned to jazz, so she tends to take a very classical-ish approach -- "here's a bunch of things that sound good; practice them so you can play them when you need to" rather than "oh, just play some stuff and see what sounds good." I'mm liking it. It would probably drive some people crazy. You? About the monotonous fusion thing.... It occurs to me that the beat that gets dull the fastest, for me at least, is the straight 4/4 funk beat that a lot of fusion is written in. I tend to have a lot more patience for swing (which can be even more repetetive, especially with only one or two chords) or for weird beats (a la Mahavishnu Orchestra). I'd guess that's because there's more you can _do_ with swing or weird beats: all sorts of ways you can lean on the rhythm one way or another, or subdivide things up funny, or whatever. Given that, I'm a little mystified that most dance music, where all you've got is the beat over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, is based off of the more boring sort of rhythm. Maybe that's why most techno sucks.... La de da...don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud. <wanders off>
I've been playing classical piano more or less nonstop for nine or ten years now and have sort of been thrown headfirst into trying to play jazz by Russell, who is sort of trying to put his own band together...he has me and a drummer but wants to find a bassist. So, that's why I am having something of a difficult time of it :) My clarinet teacher told me about a great jazz piano teacher (also coincidentally the father of one of my friends at school) and said she would put in a good word for me if I ever wanted to have lessons with him. But, two things-I would have to pay for it myself, and my classical piano teacher probably wouldn't be very pleased about my taking lessons from another person at the same time. The next time i'm at the library I might check to see if they have anything remotely useful-looking on the subject. It occurs to me that it would be useful to know a bunch of "things that sound good over this-or-that chord" for soloing, just so that you would have something to build on or something to fall back on... What's Mahavishnu Orchestra?
Mahavishnu Orchestra was a fusion band, violin-keyboard-guitar-bass-drums, who got very into odd rhythms and such. I have no sense of jazz history, so I can't really tell you much more than that. AFAIK, their best-known member now is John McLaughlin, whose solo stuff I absolutely _loathe,_ but playing with them he sounds pretty good. Don't assume your piano teacher doesn't want you studying with someone else. Some teachers won't like the idea at all, of course, but I've even had teachers who've _encouraged_ me to study with other people. Can't hurt to ask. If you're looking for books, I'd reccomend "The Jazz Piano Book" by Mark Levine. The reccomendation comes via my current teacher, who suggested it after I complained that I couldn't find any books on the subject that weren't either dumbed-down or incomprehensible. Then again, I'm hardly an expert on the subject, so the fact hat it's the least evil book I've seen doesn't mean much.
Thanks, I will look for that book. Also I'll ask Russell if he has any Mahavishnu Orchestra lps--his dad has a *huge* collection of both rock and jazz on vinyl, filling up two walls of the basement and one upstairs too. The _Buena Vista Social Club_ cd arrived today! Most of the tracks are very beautiful--there were only a couple I didn't like. Two or three are listed as "influencia americana," and are a wonderfully fresh blend of Cuban and ragtime/early jazz styles. It's interesting to realize that American popular music, which (especially today with 'world music') borrows so much from the music of foreign cultures has also itself been 'borrowed' and reworked by those same cultures. The guitar playing on the album (most of the tracks are guitar-based) is very precise and lovely to listen to, and it's cool to hear these traditional forms accented by the more modern sounds of Ry Cooder's electric guitars.
One of the fascinating things about early ska music (from Jamaica during the early 60's) is how clearly you can hear the influence of American R&B and yet still have a distinctive and new Jamaican sound.. The process of American popular music influencing the development of new sounds in the Caribbean and Latin America has been going on for quite some time now..
nice to see Mahavishnu discussed
This is a bit of a diversion, but what is ska? (I hear people talk about it at school but have very little idea what it sounds like...) How is it similar to and different from reggae? Columbia Houses's big "megalog" that came this week lists two Mahavishnu albums, _Birds of Fire_ and _Inner Mounting Flame_ (there's also an album of previously unreleased cuts called _The Lost Trident Sessions_ but I reckon it would be better to start off with a more well-known album). Which of these would you Mahavishnu fans recommend? Is either considerably better than the other?
what would you suggest to someone who's never really played jazz? I've thought about getting a book I have heard of that addresses jazz comp for the classical guitar (thru a private Net publisher), and one of my guitar teacher suggested I listen to Charlie (?) Parker as he was a Segovia student (I'll have to ask again, make sure I *did* get the right name..)
Charlie Parker played saxophone. A web search found a jazz guitarist named Charlie Byrd who _did_ study with Segovia. Just to make matters more complicated, Charlie Parker's nickname was Bird. Re#15: I like "Birds of Fire" better; there are a few tracks on "Inner Mounting Flame" that just get on my nerves. But both are good, IMO.
re #15: depends on what sort of ska they're talking about.. what's currently sold as ska bears only a token resemblance to the classic ska of early-to-mid-60s Jamaica.. I think we've probably got a ska item around here somewhere -- ask your question there and I'll write a bit.. I don't want to hijack this discussion just as it's getting going, though, I just pointed out the American R&B influence on the early ska pioneers as another example of American popular music influencing the musical development of a neighboring nation.
Yeah, pump some life into the ska item.... As far as jazz, the 40's to 60's bop and hard bop are the things I dig, as well as 'free' jazz. Hank Mobley, Curtis Fuller, Lee Morgan, just a few of my faves.
Free jazz... I got out Ornette Coleman's _The Shape of Jazz to Come_ (I think that's the title) from the library a year or so ago, and it didn't really appeal to me then. But I should probably listen to it again because sometimes I pick up a cd some time after first listening to it and find that I like it much more the second time around. (This has happened to me twice, once with Bud Powell and once with Kronos Quartet--who, incidentally, recorded an awesome cover of Coleman's "Lonely Woman" on _White Man Sleeps_) Coltrane's idea of "sheets of sound" was influenced to some degree by Free jazz, wasn't it? There's a cool cd called _Thelonious Monk and John Coltrane_ on which he uses this style of playing a lot-it's interesting to hear the contrast between the solid sounds of Monk's piano and the swift, flowing lines on the sax.
Yeah, Shape of Jazz to Come is a great disc in my opinion. I'm also into earlier Sun Ra, late 50's early 60's..the later stuff I haven't yet been able to get into.
More on the _Buena Vista Social Club_ disc: I read the customer reviews of this album on Amazon, and it seems like about a third (maybe more) of the reviewers--even some of those who liked the disc as a whole--were greatly annoyed by Ry Cooder's slide guitar playing. Among the nicer comments were "it just isn't Cuban," "gives it an inappropriate TexMex flavor," etc. It is indisputable that without the slide guitar it would be a more "authentic" album, but putting that aside I don't know whether or not it would be better musically. As I said above, I rather like the contrast in sound "textures"--the title track is particularly cool-sounding with the slide guitar soft and very high, sounding rather like a violin. If the liner notes are to be believed, Compay Segundo was "especially delighted" with Cooder's two-chorus guitar solo on one other track, and thought that it would have won the "enthusiastic approval" of the composer. Surely *someone* else here has heard the disc and wants to comment on it??
<getting discouraged by lack of responses, grumble grumble grouch grouch> Two CDs out from the library at the moment: Bill Evans, _Alone (again)_ and Ornette Coleman & Prime Time, _Virgin Beauty_. The Bill Evans is the first solo Evans album I've heard, so now I understand why a lot of people call his style "impressionist". Actually, if I just have it playing while I'm doing something else for some reason it rather annoys me, but if I *listen* to it I can hear its gorgeous complexity..the last track, _People_ (?) sometimes sounds almost like Chopin. The Ornette Coleman C was made in the '80s I think, so it is more fusion than free jazz. I don't know what the instrumentation is (except that Jerry Garcia plays guitar on three tracks, which is cool) but it sounds like the percussion track is a drum machine. If you have a violent allergic reaction to drum machines, you probably won't like it. But otherwise it has some pretty cool tracks on it, most of which are just weird-sounding and off-key enough to not become sugary. I especially liked the background strings in the ballad-like title track (is it Ornette himself playing violin??). Next week I think I'll return this one and listen again to one of his earlier CDs. On Saturday I went over to Russell's house and for the first time played a piano solo that sounded semi-decent -- I didn't choke or forget the chord changes or otherwise screw up, so I felt pretty good about that. Three questions: 1) what is "harmolodics"? (this is said to have something to do with the Coleman CD but the liner notes are missing so I can't tell) 2) what is the form of an 8-bar blues? (I only know twelve bar) 3) what is "acid jazz"?
The first two are terms that I've heard tossed around, but I don't understand either of them. I think "harmolodics" was a word that Coleman made up to explain some idea of his, but I'm not sure. Ornette Coleman has never made much sense to me. Of course, the last time I listened to any of his stuff, I was listening to a lot less jazz in general. Maybe I should give him another try sometime. Acid Jazz, IIRC, is not so much jazz as it is a sort of electronic music with a little jazz influence. Actually, I'm not too sure about it either. Yay decent solo! I'm still at the point of endless scales and chord voicings and not much more. Quite frustrating, actually: it's just free-form enough to be difficult and brain-stretching and make me long for explicit notation, but not free-form enough to sound like an actual solo. I know it's stuff I need to learn, but still....
(not directly related to jazz, but...) (...it sounds like I'll have an on-air slot at WNMU-Marquette soon, which would include "Listener's Choice Jazz" on Saturday nights. the station broadcasts at 100,000 Watts, and covers the entire Upper Peninsula [and part of Wisconsin], but I don't believe it's broadcasting in RealAudio yet.)
Right at the moment I am listening to Ornette Coleman's _Free Jazz: A Collective Improvisation_, which I got out from the library after returning Bill Evans and the other Coleman album (some of the songs on which had started to get on my nerves after repeated listenings...). This is the album with the double quartet (sax/trumpet/bass/drums on the left, bass clarinet/trumpet/ bass/drums on the right) and I think that is one thing that makes it easier to listen to than the _Shape of Jazz to Come_ record -- don't know why exactly; it is something to do with having a "richer" sound. And the solos really *are* melodic, not just random notes; sometimes you can hear the influence of more traditional jazz forms on Coleman (as a teenager he played saxophone in touring R&B bands in Texas). There is one part which has already made an immediate emotional impression on me, and that is the bass solo near the end. So, I haven't completely fallen in love with it yet, but it's definitely something I want to listen to a lot more...
Going back a ways: Charlie Byrd was the jazz guitarist who died recently. He was based in the Washington DC area, so I was exposed to a fair bit of his stuff when I was growing up. My Dad had a few of Byrd's LPs, and Byrd came and played for us in school once. In more recent years he had a regular gig at the King of France Tavern in Annapolis, not far from my parents, and I'd meant to try to get there but never did. The only other jazz guitarists who leap to mind, for lumen to investigate, are Wes Montgomery and Charlie Christian. (Wasn't Charlie Christian in the Ellington band? Or am I hopelessly confused?) They both played mostly electric, I think, though in Christian's case it would have been a fairly primitive electric.
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/hansen/Charlie/ has a Charlie Christian bio. Sez he played for Benny Goodman, but it doesn't mention Ellington.
I got two new CDs this weekend! (well actually I got three but one of them is not jazz and so I won't mention it here). NP: Miles Davis, _Porgy and Bess_, which is the first Davis/ Gil Evans album I've heard. I like it a lot -- the style of Davis' solos is very similar to that on _Kind of Blue_ (the album which immediately follows it chronologically, IIRC), although they are based on a "theme" melody to a greater degree; the orchestral backing adds interest not only by keeping the mood and structure of the original piece going beneath the trumpet solos but by making every track sound distinct from the others. (It's interesting to note that even before _Kind of Blue_ Miles Davis was working with soloing on a scale rather than chords--in the liner notes it has a quote from him -- "When Gil wrote the arrangement of 'I Loves You, Porgy,' he only wrote a scale for me to play. No chords.") The other disc is Itzhak Perlman with the Oscar Peterson Trio (Peterson, piano; Ray Brown, bass; Herb Ellis, guitar) and Grady Tate on drums. I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet, so I'll write about it probably tomorrow...
The Perlman/Peterson CD is interesting not only for its somewhat-unusual solo instrument (and soloist, for that matter ;) but to hear the way in which Oscar Peterson's style has changed since his earlier recordings (which were the only ones I'd heard until buying this disc). There's still a lot of virtuosic pyrotechnics, but also a few examples of a quieter, more tender style (especially on the gorgeous "Nighttime")...almost reminded me of the Bill Evans disc in a couple of places.
(Funny, I'd thought he'd only played with a guitarist very early on in his career. (Or at least, so my liner notes claim (which is what I get for trusting liner notes, I guess)). When was the CD you've got recorded?)
This is a newish CD, recorded 1996 or so -- it seems that recently he has performed and recorded mostly with the same trio he had in the 1950s. The liner notes for the Verve "Jazz Masters 16" compilation of Oscar Peterson tracks list one other guitar trio, with Barney Kessel and of course Ray Brown, but that track too is from the '50s (1952, to be exact). The Ellis tracks on it range from 1956-59; all of the later recordings are from the Sixties and are piano/bass/drum groups. Did O.P. switch to another recording label after that? Question -- what kind of instrument do the guitarists in these groups play? It doesn't sound like a pure acoustic guitar, but I don't think it's a modern solid-body electric either; maybe an acoustic guitar with a pickup?? (I ask this because on PBS news tonight there was a little segment about the history of the electric guitar; the guest was asked about Les Paul, said he tried to get a "pure" electric tone (without distortion of any kind) and tried to play a few bars in his style. It didn't sound all that pure to me, compared to the things Ellis & Kessel play...) For that matter, who was Les Paul and what kind of music did he play? I have only heard the name...
Jazz guitarists often play an "archtop", which is an acoustic guitar constructed a bit more like a violin. Often these guitars have pickups.
Oh, right, I think I may have seen pictures of those actually. Is it a standard magnetic pickup or more like a microphone? SInce we were talking about jazz guitarists, I picked up Pat Metheny Group's _Letter from Home_ at the library today. Although I like some of the guitar solos, overall it is a bit too soft and smooth for me. They also have a cd of apparently purely acoustic recordings by Metheny and bassist Charlie Haden, which I might get out next week.
Standard magnetic pickup; typically a humbucker.
If I'm remembering right, using a magnetic pickup on an acoustic guitar will normally give you feedback. I think this is because the surface to which the pickup would be attatched is the soundboard of the guitar, which is itself vibrating, but someone who knows more about guitars should verify this. Archtop guitars are the exception to this.
Any type of pickup on an acoustic guitar is more susceptible to feedback. That's because the thin body walls can pick up external noises. Archtops tend to have pickups mounted to a solid part of the guitar such as the end of the neck, which helps.
Er...yeah. What he said. :)
(brief interlude: I have to program a jazz show tomorrow, and I'd like to tie it in to Mardi Gras by focusing on the Louisiana scene. any suggestion on what to play?)
Geez.. That could be pretty tough, putting together a jazz program with a New Orleans theme..
:) (no, seriously. I'm completely clueless and don't know which artists are actually from the Louisiana area and which ones are relative newcomers. I also want to [mostly] stay away from tracks that were recorded by N.O. artists while away from the area.) (I have some ideas, but suggestions are always helpful.)
Are you looking for old (1910s, 20s) recordings, or more recent things? I have to admit I don't know much about either -- Louis Armstrong (of course), King Oliver (trumpeter in whose band Louis' career started), Buddy Bolden (street band trumpeter, think he may have been a barber by day for some reason, or maybe I'm confusing him with someone else), Jelly Roll Morton (ragtime/early jazz pianistm who liked to claim that he invented jazz) are the only names that spring to mind. (among Louis Armstrong's many groups were the Hot Five, Hot Seven, and the All-Stars) Then in the 1950s, R&B got started in New Orleans... Not exactly the same thing that's today marketed as r&b, but a kind of jazz that represented a return to the idea of jazz as dance music with great popular appeal (a reaction against bebop, whose practitioners played the music *they* wanted to play or even deliberately tried to annoy the listening public and older musicians, by playing in strange, harsh-sounding chords and so on...) Louis Jordan, a saxophonist, is the only name I know, sadly... (Of course, r&b evolved into rock'n'roll, along the way apparently getting itself confused somehow with bebop or bop, so that Elvis was referred to as "the king of Western bop" at one point...) Nowadays I think there is a sort of revival of older jazz styles going on in New Orleans, like marching-band music and so on...isn't there a band called the "Dirty Dozen Brass Band" that does this kind of thing?? (I'm afraid that wasn't much help, especially since you probably won't get to read this before doing your show, but I felt like babbling on anyway...) To babble on a little further -- it can be really amusing to read the opinions of the more snobbish jazz critics on R&B's evolution into rock. The mostly excellent "Jazz: America's Classical Music" has a hilarious little section on how the process started by Elvis led to a huge list of social evils, the last of which was "Brooke Shields exalted as child sex goddess of the 80's"
(I got out Miles' _Sketches of Spain_ from the library and really like a lot of it but don't have time to write about it now, wait a day or two...)
The "Dirty Dozen BRass Band" is more of a funk band using brass instruments.
(I ended up pulling out covers of old Jelly Roll Morton tunes. I would have liked to have played some covers of Joe "King" Oliver, but I couldn't find any on CD; the public radio station rid itself of turntables a few weeks before I began working there. I also found a couple of New Orleans-specific works whose names I can't recall at the moment.) (I did play three non-N.O. tunes: Ella & Louis, "Summertime"; Bob James, "Nautilus"; Dave Brubeck Quartet, "Take Five.")
another jazz guitarist to check out (re:way back there) is Django Reinhart(sp)
'Reinhardt', IIRC. So, _Sketches of Spain_: an album of Spanish classical music and folk tunes, including a reworking of the middle movement of Rodrigo's Concierto de Aranjuez, with Miles taking the guitar part on trumpet. Actually, I don't think that's the best piece on the album; it doesn't stay completely true to the spirit of the original (especially at the points where the orchestral backing goes into a swing rhythm behind Davis' solos). But the solos themselves are really good, and the other cuts on the album (apart from a march piece whose rigid rhythm just annoys me -- fortunately it's short) are great. Probably my favorite track is the final one, which is of a similar length to "Concierto" but quite a bit more free-form. Anyway, today, without returning _Sketches of Spain_, I checked out vol. 2 of Coltrane's "Complete 1961 Village Vanguard recordings" (the only volume that was there -- I have given up trying to find specific CDs at the library and now just check out whatever looks good; unfortunately most of their best CDs get stolen as the anti-theft system doesn't work). I personally would consider this Free jazz, at least as far as the soloing style goes, but as it is firmly anchored in swing rhythm and (most of the time) scales or chords, it is much more understandable than Coleman. Two of the tracks (of those I have heard so far) sound more or less like the recordings on Atlantic's _Best of John Coltrane_, but the ones that made the greatest impression on me were the first and third. The first track's head sounds very much like the written-out breaks in Coleman's _Free Jazz_ -- no discernible beat, oddly random-sounding melody; when the solos begin it seems to be returning to the realm of straight modal jazz, but the squawks, trills, and virtuosic runs over the horn's whole range that Coltrane produces make it something much more wild and strange. (The playing of the bassist & drummer, including an extended bass solo, is incredible too). The third track, appropriately titled _India_, opens with the drummer playing something that *almost* sounds like a swing beat, except that it's either in an odd time signature or in no time signature at all; then suddenly there's an unexpected metallic note in the right channel -- some classical Indian instrument, I'm sure, though I couldn't tell you its name; a few bars later, the bass enters, and then a little later begins a solo on a horn that sounds more like an oboe than a saxophone, though I'm not sure an oboe is what it is. There's also unusual-sounding backing from a couple more horns, and a solo that I think is either a clarinet or a bass clarinet. Awesome track. Awe-inspiring record. question: this CD doesn't have any liner booklet for some reason, so I don't know who the players were for this session. I'd suspect Scott LaFaro or maybe Charlie Haden on bass, just because the solos sound so much like those on _Free Jazz_, but it might also be someone else playing in that style. My best guess for pianist would be Wyn Kelly (because Coltrane recorded with him in 1960), but again I could be completely wrong. Possibly Eric Dolphy as one of the other horn players. I dunno. Does anyone else?
On _Giant Steps_ (1960 also), he plays with Tommy Flanagan, Cedar Walton, and Wynton Kelly. So if you're gonna go by what he was up to at the time, it could be any of those three. i.e. I don't know. I'm still trying to bend my ears around Giant Steps. It's fascinating stuff, but I find it very tiring to listen to -- I tend to prefer more melodic solos is most of it. You definitely seem to have more of an ear for the angular stuff than I do. I suspect if I'd been of a proper old-fart age in 1960, I'd've been one of those people that jazz was dead etc. etc. etc. (Actually, if I'd been of a proper old-far age in the 60s, I'd've been ranting against the Beatles and the Stones and have no clue who Coltrane was, I imagine. But close enough.)
*giggle*
http://www.riffage.com/Features/Features/Metheny_KennyG/0,4780,0,00.html
---
Metheny Gets Medieval on Kenny G
by Jim Willcox
If you thought confrontational exchanges between musicians were confined
to more aggressive musical genres like rap, rock or heavy metal, think
again. Recently, jazz guitarist Pat Metheny teed off on new age
saxophonist Kenny G, (full name Kenny Gorelick -- Ed.) calling his
playing "lame-ass" and "wimped out" in a posting on his website
(http://www.patmethenygroup.com).
The controversy, which started when Metheny cautioned his fans that not
all music classified as jazz was, in fact, jazz, pointed out Kenny G's
music as an example, saying the saxophonist played "the dumbest music on
the planet." Of course, Metheny was then asked by visitors to expound
on his feelings toward his top-selling contemporary.
Rather than backtracking, Metheny plowed ahead with a full-scale assault
on Kenny G's abilities in general, but taking particular offense at
Kenny G's recent electronically engineered duet with the late Louis
Armstrong. Metheny, who believes that Kenny G's overdubbing on
Armstrong's song was a desecration of his musical legacy, called the
track an example of "musical necrophilia." Metheny said he though it
"weird" when Natalie Cole did it with her father, Nat King Cole, and
"bizarre" when Tony Bennett did it with Billie Holiday, but added, "But
we are talking about two of the greatest singers of the 20th century who
are roughly on the same level of artistic accomplishment."
Then Metheny really let loose. "When Kenny G decided that it was
appropriate for him to defile the music of the man who is probably the
greatest jazz musician that has ever lived by spewing his lame-ass,
jive, pseudo bluesy, out-of-tune, noodling, wimped out, f*cked up
playing all over one of the great Louis's tracks (even one of his lesser
ones), he did something that I would not have imagined possible. He, in
one move, through his unbelievably pretentious and calloused (sic)
musical decision to embark on this most cynical of musical paths, shit
all over the graves of all the musicians past and present who have
risked their lives by going out there on the road for years and years,
developing their own music inspired by the standards of grace that Louis
Armstrong brought to every single note he played over an amazing
lifetime as a musician. By disrespecting Louis, his legacy and by
default, everyone who has ever tried to do something positive with
improvised music and what it can be, Kenny G has created a new low point
in modern culture - something that we all should be totally embarrassed
about - and afraid of. We ignore this - 'let it slide' - at our own
peril."
Metheny wasn't quite done, however, saying the only reason for Kenny G
doing something "inherently wrong - on both human and musical terms" was
for record sales and money. As a result, Metheny called for a boycott of
Kenny G's albums and concerts. Metheny finished by taking music critics
to task for not writing about the issue, and adding "everything I said
here is exactly the same as what I would say to Gorelick if I ever saw
him in person. And if I ever DO see him anywhere, at any function - he
WILL get a piece of my mind (and (maybe a guitar wrapped around his
head.)"
In a subsequent post to the responses he received, Metheny said that he
actually wouldn't be hitting anyone with a guitar "despite the fact that
El Kabong WAS probably my first major guitar influence as a kid."
Metheny acknowledged he was surprised by how much notice "my little rant
on this topic" has generated in the press, and was disappointed that
"controversy has the chance to 'win' over musical substance" in what
gets discussed. "I wish the actual playing and writing could generate
(this) type of discussion" As a final aside, Metheny jokingly said he
suggested to an animator at MTV's "Celebrity Death Match" that they
arrange a bout between Kenny G and the ghost of Louis Armstrong "to
settle this for once and for all!"
oh gawd that was beautiful!
Makes you want to weep doesn't it? *weep* ;)
I have a LOT of respect for Pat Metheny now.
I always have
I know nothing about Pat Metheny. Well, except that he plays guitar. Would any of you Pat metheny fans like to point me towards a good album of his? I got "Bitches Brew" on CD about a month ago. (which reminds me, I have to pay them for it before they get peevish and send me something I don't want...). Anyway, the more I listen to it the more inexplicable I find the violently negative response that it received from jazz critics of the day. (One of the books I read for that jazz research paper last year referred to it as "a sad plea for attention") (getting the cause and effect mixed up, as "Brew" was the record that started the fusion trend, not an attempt to keep up with it) The music is incredibly complex and multifaceted; it's no exaggeration when the blurb on the CD back says something like "by turns churning and contemplative, airy and grounded, structured and free..." And it's much too simplistic to label it "jazz-rock," for that matter, as it has influences from many different musical forms (including, incidentally, some of the best ideas of Coleman's Free jazz, like the collective improvisation that replaces sharply differentiated round-robin solos -- John McLaughlin is particularly adept at this). That said, I'm starting to agree with Orinoco's comment that most other fusion isn't so good (in resp #2 or so). Having heard quite a lot more fusion recently, I can say that none of it has quite the "oceanic depth" (another blurb quote) of "Bitches Brew." Most of it is rather one-dimensional... Mahavishnu Orchestra was quite good, although I'm not too fond of JM's extreme use of distortion on some songs, and the long guitar solo on the first track from Lost Trident Sessions seemed not to really go anywhere for all its speed. (The concluding blues-inflected section of that track was lovely, though). Also probably I shouldn't evaluate Mahavishnu on the strength of a "previously unreleased" album (I have heard the others at someone else's house but *listened* to them...). BTW, Orinoco, why do you hate JM's solo records? I heard "My Goal's Beyond" (reissued on CD, incorrectly as "My Goals Beyond") last week and have decided I'll have to get it. It's an acoustic record with several Mahavishnu players on it (Jerry Goodman, Billy Cobham, and one other I think...). The first side is very Indian-influenced with sitar and tabla backing along with the bass and drums, the second mostly solo guitar renditions of jazz standards. Actually the second side has quite a classical "tone color" which I liked a lot.
(I agree completely with Pat Metheny's rant about Kenny G, btw, don't know how I forgot to mention that..) (and thank you Stacie for posting something else to this item, it makes me feel a little less like it's a lost cause ;) Oh, and I just noticed that the last line of the second-to-last paragraph in my previous response should say exactly the opposite of what it does: "but haven't *listened* to them..."
Well, I have to admit that it's not on very much evidence that I've decided I don't like John McLaughlin's solo stuff. I owned "The Heart of Things," a 1997 release of his, for a while, and never really warmed to it. I saw him live a few years ago and was blown away by his rhythm section, but didn't much enjoy his playing. I've heard a few things of his on the radio, and thought they were flashy but not very interesting. Then again, none of this that I've heard comes from around the same time as the Mahavishnu Orchestra; it's possible that I'd like some of his earlier solo work, which I haven' theard any of. (Then again again, "Indian influenced" jazz "with sitar and tabla backing" sounds to me like a profoundly anoying idea). I suspect that Bitches-Brew-era Miles Davis and the Mahavishnu Orchestra were only called by the same label because they were both playing <gasp> electric music. "Fusion" as a term doesn't seem to mean much more than "well, they've got an electric guitarist, so....." -- it's misleading. Bitches Brew sounds to me like especially tasteful free jazz, and Mahavishnu sound to me like a side current of prog rock.
Nonono, it's a very good idea :) All I really meant when I said it was "indian influenced" was that it seems to be based all in one scale/chord and uses a couple of Indian instruments (I think Bitches Brew has tabla on some of the tracks, and I know later Davis groups had a sitar player [I don't like this later stuff much, actually, especially as an *electric* *sitar* seems a bit tasteless...]) Then again, I loved that John Coltrane track "India," too, so conclude what you will :) I heard some of another JM solo record a couple of days ago, incidentally, _Extrapolation_ (IIRC), which was recorded in '72 with a quartet of English jazz players and is much more conservative and "jazzy" than Mahavishnu Orchestra. That was lovely too... And you are of course completely right about the term "fusion," which encompasses much more musical ground than "swing" or "bebop" ever did.
Russell lent me his B Sharp Jazz Quartet cd, "Tha Go 'Round." Although I liked some of it, it grew rather monotonous listening to it straight through. Their style might be described as hard-bop with a touch of funk. On an impulse I checked out "Song X" by Ornette Coleman & Pat Metheny, only to discover that I *still* don't understand Coleman...
Today I went down to one of the used cd stores in Boulder, SecondSpin, and
bought four cds - three classical (Stravinsky Rite of Spring, Britten's Four
Sea Interludes, Sibelius' & Walton's respective second symphonies, among other
stuff) and one jazz - Chick Corea's "Akoustic Band," which despite the yucky
spelling is a very good cd. (I think it was mentioned in one of the responses
above, actually). It's a trio - Chick, John Patitucci on Bass, and Dave Weckl
on drums. They play six standards - the first by Coltrane, the others classic
swing tunes ("My One and Only Love," "Autumn Leaves," "Someday my Prince Will
Come," among others) - and four of Chick's own compositions, the only one of
which I recognize is "Spain." The performances were quite an eye-opener for
me: I hadn't previously realized, from listening to some of Chick Corea's
electric work (Bitches Brew, Return to Forever) what an excellent pianist he
is technically. The drummer (who even when "in the background" is as much of
an improviser as he is a beat-keeper) and bassist are also very good,
especially for their ability to keep up with Chick's unpredictable
alterations of tempo and chordal structure. His playing alternately reminds
me of Thelonious Monk (in the use of dissonances) and Bill Evans, especially
in the free-form, rubato introductions and cadenzas. It's great stuff.
I've been listening a bit more to an Eric Dolphy cd I bought some months ago,
being impressed with his playing on the Coltrane live CD mentioned some
responses above. The Dolphy cd is called _Out to Lunch_, is a quintet recording
(Dolphy on alto sax, flute and bass clarinet, Freddie Hubbard on trumpet,
Bobby Hutcherson on vibes, Richard Davis on bass, Anthony Williams on drums),
and is in a style substantially different and more difficult to listen to.
When I first heard it I found it random-sounding and annoying, so I put it
away for a bit; upon listening to it again I found some of it much more
listenable. My favorite track so far is the perfectly named "Something Sweet,
Something Tender."
(A really really good Chick Corea CD is "3 Quartets", which is all acoustic with sidemen like Steve Gadd and Eddie Gomez.
I like Eddie Gomez' playing a lot. Thanks for the recommendation. (you mentioned it above, resp:7, but i forgot about it. oops :)
Since entering the resp. in which I mentioned the B sharp quartet, I've heard some of their other stuff (they have a total of four cds out on a not-for-profit label called the "MAMA foundation," if anyone's curious...) and liked it quite a bit better. The other albums were, I thought, more varied both in song selection and instrumentation (the pianist played a couple of different kinds of electric keyboard, and I was somewhat surprised to discover that I actually liked the sound of it...) and I like albums with variety. They also had one album that opened and closed with the quartet augmented by a spoken-word performer, great resonant voice, and although it verged on rap or hip-hop I liked it much more than either - slower tempo, acoustic backing, and great literate lyrics. Anyway I just thought I should enter that in the interests of fairness. I'd actually like to buy one of their albums now, but they're more expensive than most as they have to be special ordered.... :(
I checked out a John McLaughlin cd from the library last week (was somewhat surprised to see that a nominally checked in cd actually *was* on the shelves ;). It's entitled "The Promise," has a different group of musicians with John on each track, and I'm somewhat disappointed with it. The first two tracks were great, the first a tuneful duet with Jeff Beck on the MJQ's "Django," the second a tribute to Thelonious Monk with just Hammond organ and drums backing. Then there was a piece on which JM overdubs both synthesizers and acoustic guitar, a bit overdone and muzak-y for my taste. Then came "No Return," a stunningly tasteless jazz-techno mess which I couldn't listen to for my than about ten seconds on second hearing. Tracks 5 and 6 I couldn't hear because they were too scratched up (library cds...) though I suspect 5 was probably good since it was with Al di Meola and Paco de Lucia and I liked the "Guitar Trio" cd. Track 7 is a Shakti-ish tune, I liked it well enough but I don't think the electric guitar blends very well with the rest of the ensemble. Then there was a minute-long snippet of a wild jam session with Sting on bass and drummer Vinnie Colaiuta, wish they'd put more of it on. A pointless 30-second long snippet of electronica and something with David Sanborn on sax which I found annoyingly smooth and cloying follow. The album closes with a wonderful wonderful piece, "The Peacocks" (forgot the composer's name), played by JM, another acoustic guitarist, and an acoustic bass guitarist (I never knew there were such things...). It would have a made a good EP, minus the awful stuff.
I got another Miles Davis fusion album, _In a Silent Way_. THis came out in 68 or 69 IIRC, the album just before Bitches Brew. It might be described as a "lighter" version of _Bitches Brew_. There is only one bassist (Dave Holland if I recall, playing acoustic) and one drummer (Tony Williams) who stays in the background almost entirely, so it is both much less aggressive and more "loose" than on the later album. In a lot of ways the album is like _Kind of Blue_ on electric instruments. The solos are even longer and less "shaped" than on _Kind of Blue_, and annoyed me a bit at first (with the exception of Wayne Shorter's), but after several listenings they "make sense." The second track is both longer (almost 18 minutes) and more interesting than the first...it opens with some lovely major-key noodling by John McLaughlin and one of the pianists over a bass drone, after which Shorter and Miles repeat a lyrical, folky melody. The main section consists of two repeated bass lines, one very austere and the other reminiscent of "81" from _ESP_. The soloists cue the change from the first to the second, like "Flamenco Sketches" on _Blue_ and whatever the first track on disc 2 of _Bitches Brew_ is. Anyway, a good album...calmer and more peaceful than _Bitches Brew_ without being any less interesting.
It might be too late to post this; if so, I'm truly sorry. I've been meaning to write about this for a few days. On our local public radio affiliate, hosts Paul Ray and Jay Trachtenburg are commemorating the 75th birth anniversary of MILES DAVIS with eight hours of Miles. On Tuesday, 22 May 2001, at 8pm CDT/9pm EDT, Paul will serve up four hours of acoustic Miles on his show (Paul Ray's Jazz). Then again on Wednesday, 23 May 2001, 8 Central/9 Eastern, Jay's JAZZ ETC. will feature four hours of electric Miles. There is a fair-quality RealAudio stream here: http://www.utexas.edu/kut/kutradio.ram or, I can tape it for whoever might be interested.
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