Grex Music2 Conference

Item 227: Stereo Hardware Toys

Entered by krj on Tue Jan 11 20:59:13 2000:

I need to buy one, and possibly two, portable CD players: for use in 
the car, the office, and for wearing around the house.  I had two, but 
one has been misplaced in the house and the other just had a hinge 
break on its lid.  
 
These are both Sony units, 3 and 4 years old, and two things i liked
about them were the illuminated keys (essential for night driving, I 
think) and the digital signal processing feature.  The DSP included 
a compression setting, which was ideal for compressing classical
music's dynamic range for the car environment.
 
The market has changed, and the features I want are generally no longer
available.  The DSP compression feature seems to have completely 
disappeared, and I can only find one Sony -- probably an older model
-- with illuminated keys.
 
I suppose I should be cheerful that the price has dropped about 50% 
since the last time I bought a portable CD player.
53 responses total.

#1 of 53 by scott on Tue Jan 11 22:23:24 2000:

My MiniDisc recorder has a little remote unit, which is a much more common
accessory in Japan than it is in the States.  My CD player (another portable
Sony) has a jack for a similar remote.  The remotes geneally have a little
backlit dispaly, and the controls (while not being lit themselves) are very
easy to operate by feel.


#2 of 53 by mcnally on Tue Jan 11 22:55:46 2000:

  Have you considered just getting a CD player for the car?  You listen 
  to enough music and drive enough that I think it'd be well worth it,
  especially since prices have gotten pretty reasonable..


#3 of 53 by anderyn on Wed Jan 12 01:09:00 2000:

My minidisc (also Sony) has a remote, too. I like it. But, I don't know,
most of the CD players I've seen haven't had illuminated keys, and I've 
never checked into the compression feature.


#4 of 53 by keesan on Wed Jan 12 06:27:20 2000:

Says Jim: Boy, some people really have problems.


#5 of 53 by krj on Wed Jan 12 06:39:28 2000:

I have thought about an in-dash CD player for the car.  
There are two problems.  The first is that I still dabble in 
cassettes.  The second is that the office parking ramp is the 
Car Stereo Thieves' Shopping Mart, so I don't want to put anything
fancier than a factory stereo in the car.
 
The built-in car stereo CD players don't seem to have the DSP compression
circuit for classical music either, at least not the last time I looked
at a Crutchfield catalog.

I could give Jim my other problem to chuckle over.  At home, our main stereo 
speakers are the old DCM Time Windows, the original model from around 
1980.  They look like cat scratching posts, and our new kitten Tristan
is probably going to finish destroying them.  DCM, originally an Ann 
Arbor company, was bought by another firm in the Southwest in the 
summer of 1999, so I'm skeptical that I'll have any luck in replacing 
these.

And the next other problem: it seems likely the capacitors are shot 
in the 1983-vintage receiver.  I'd talked with Accutronics about 
having the capacitors replaced, but while I was dawdling about it, 
Accutronics -- our favorite electronics repair shop -- went out of 
business.


#6 of 53 by orinoco on Wed Jan 12 18:23:12 2000:

What _is_ DSP compression?


#7 of 53 by lumen on Wed Jan 12 18:30:10 2000:

I was reading this and thinking it over a lot-- I used to subscribe to 
_Sound & Vision_, a magazine that emerged from _Stereo Review_ and 
_Audio Magazine_.

Dynamic range of speakers, reverb, and amplifier specifics were things 
I noted as varying factors among those that listen to different kinds 
of music in the home.  Classical and jazz aficionados generally tend to 
shy away from much bass extension in speakers since it's just out of 
range of acoustical instruments.  There was also a lot of debate over 
amplifiers-- there used to be a lot of vacuum tube purists, especially 
among those listeners.

Now, what I'm curious about is-- how does DSP work?  I wasn't aware 
that the dynamic range of classical music *had* to be compressed to 
work well in the acoustic setting of a car.  Really, most cars have 
superb acoustics compared to the home setting.  The stereotype of the 
car audiophile is of a young male basshead, but really, the arrangement 
is to be appreciated.  Since I don't know DSP, I'm going to guess on 
some things based on typical car acoustics.

I know most factory speakers are mid-range heavy, which I am guessing 
may actually work in *favor* for classical music.  Your implication 
that the dynamic range needs to be compressed rather confuses me, 
unless you're driving in a car that doesn't have high-end speakers, 
which I kinda doubt.  I remember a few Grexers who prefer to lower the 
dynamic high range for most music in the car, but I had always assumed 
that the car was otherwise an ideal acoustical environment.

Forgive me if I sound like a know-it-all-- I don't mean to.  I don't 
know the acoustical setup in your car, and I was curious, because there 
might be alternate ways around it.

My car is an '87 Chevy Nova with a factory radio deck.  That means no 
CD unless I install an FM device to transmit CD output over an FM 
channel, or install a CD player.  I remember void saying that since the 
high end of FM is limited, that effectively makes a natural cutoff as 
well on CD output.  I have treble and bass controls, which I generally 
use pretty liberally since mid-range *is* heavy.  Sometimes I boost the 
treble a little more and lower the bass for the classical stations.  I 
would have even finer control over this if I had a car equalizer, but 
it's not worth it.  I have great deck speakers, but the front ones are 
terrible and poorly acoustically placed (they're in a spot pointing 
down).

I'm guessing DSP is nice because it maximizes what you do have in your 
car for classical music.  I also understand from previous posts that 
theft has been a problem, so any other tweaking might be rather 
expensive.

They got rid of the backup lights?  That's too bad..


#8 of 53 by scott on Wed Jan 12 20:18:29 2000:

The music-to-road-noise ratio in a car is pretty bad.  I've thought about
getting a compressor too.


#9 of 53 by lumen on Thu Jan 13 00:24:26 2000:

if it's music-to-road noise, then I might understand.

I know some car audiophiles will put material on the inside hood of a 
car to reduce noise coming from the engine.  This might be a pad, or a 
spray on material that can also be put in other car areas to reduce 
other noises.  Often, they get electrical filters to reduce noise coming 
from more powerful alternators (helping to drive a more powerful 
system).  Radio enthusiasts will use them too for certain types of 
antennas and antenna boosters.

really, though, I want to know *what* exactly a DSP compressor is, and 
where it is needed in comparison to these other things.  There are so 
many factors in working with car acoustics, really-- the design and 
modeling of the car (because good luxury cars will close out external 
noises); placement of speakers (kick panel, deck, door, rear-view mirror 
clamp.. yes, the thing that meets the ceiling.., trunk or alternative 
area-- under seat, spare tire area); and specs of the receiver (tape 
deck, CD player, etc.)


#10 of 53 by scott on Thu Jan 13 02:10:39 2000:

Well, DSP stands for "Digital Signal Processing", which really doesn't mean
that much.  It's a neat way to do various types of signal processing without
the dedicated analog circuits.  Compression just makes the loud parts softer,
which means that you can turn the whole thing up and have the soft parts
louder.


#11 of 53 by orinoco on Thu Jan 13 02:21:52 2000:

Oh, that sort of compression.  Okay.  That makes sense.


#12 of 53 by rcurl on Thu Jan 13 06:57:08 2000:

While on the question of how things work, exactly what is magneto-optical
recording (as used on mini-discs)? That is, how does it work and what
aspects are magnetic and what optical?


#13 of 53 by krj on Thu Jan 13 07:31:06 2000:

   ((( Music #227  <--->  Consumer #106.  Thanks, kentn! )))


#14 of 53 by scott on Thu Jan 13 18:30:01 2000:

Magneto-optical uses both magnetism and light to do its recording.  A MiniDisc
reads more or less like a CD, using a laser to look for changes in a
reflective layer.  When recording, the laser is cranked up enough to loosen
things up so that a magnetic field can change the position of the reflective
layer.


#15 of 53 by rcurl on Thu Jan 13 19:19:53 2000:

Loosen what things up? Also, how does the laser "loosen things up"? By
heat and, if so, by melting something, or exceeding the critical
magnetization temperature, or what?



#16 of 53 by scott on Thu Jan 13 22:39:48 2000:

<shrug>  Search for "Minidisc" on the Web, and you'll find some nice sites.
That's what I did, but I don't remember absolutely everything.  :)


#17 of 53 by scott on Thu Jan 13 22:50:21 2000:

Phase-change technology (part A), is used in PD disks. This relies on
     using the laser's heat to change the phase-change layer of the disk back
     and forth between a crystalline and non-crystalline state, thereby
indicating
     a bit of data. (Although phase-change disks normally are rewritable, this
     approach might be called Light Intensity Modulated overwrite). Data is
     recorded magneto-optically, using both the heat of the laser plus an
     external magnetic field, so direct-overwrite requires modulating both
optic
     and magnetic systems. 

(taken from http://www.minidisc.org   )


#18 of 53 by rcurl on Fri Jan 14 00:33:23 2000:

Gets more and more interesting. I guess I need to find a technical source
so I can understand the details from the perspective of at least my
profession (chemical engineering). 

I was struck by the fact that the power supply for my daughter's minidisk
recorder is rated at 800 ma, while the one for her Discman is rated at
only 400 ma. It must be that high power laser that required more current
(but, 800 ma?).


#19 of 53 by n8nxf on Fri Jan 14 12:44:13 2000:

Are they the same voltage?


#20 of 53 by scott on Fri Jan 14 13:58:17 2000:

My own MD recorder will last several hours on playback, but less than one hour
recording.  Yup, that laser takes a fair amount of power.


#21 of 53 by rcurl on Fri Jan 14 15:39:18 2000:

Re #19: the MD wallwart is rated at 5 V 800 ma; the DM at 4.5 V 400 ma.
Given the 'regulation' in wallwarts, that difference in V is 'no difference'.


#22 of 53 by scott on Fri Jan 14 16:23:43 2000:

Oh, and my MD wallwart is 1000mA.


#23 of 53 by lumen on Sun Jan 16 00:42:08 2000:

resp:10  I was guessing something like that.


#24 of 53 by krj on Mon Feb 14 07:37:46 2000:

Sorry I never got back to the questions about compression.  Yes, I was 
talking about dynamic range compression, which I find essential for 
listening to classical music, particularly opera, in a car on the 
highway.  Classical music is recorded with a much wider dynamic 
range than is usual for rock or folk music, and I find that I have to 
"gain-ride" constantly to keep the quiet parts out of the noise floor
while not overloading the speakers and my ears on the loud parts.
 
And as I mentioned, such a compression feature was included in my two 
previous portable car CD players, purchased in 1995 and 1996, but now 
I do not think you can find any portable car CD player with this feature.
I looked pretty hard, in about five stores, plus web searches.  
 
Here's another feature which is gone.  The old CD players included 
a "resume" feature so that when you stopped the player, the machine would 
remember where you were on the disk, so you could resume listening
at the correct place when you got back in the car.
That feature is now gone from the new portable players.


#25 of 53 by orinoco on Mon Feb 14 08:00:25 2000:

Really?  I found that one pretty much essential when I was travelling with
a discman over the summer.  Of course, it helps that the CDs Josh and I were
favoring had an average track length of 20 minutes.  


#26 of 53 by oddie on Wed Feb 16 04:40:30 2000:

I think there are still players for sale that have the resume feature. It
seems to have become a "high end" feature, rather than something included on
all models, though.


#27 of 53 by tpryan on Thu Feb 17 01:28:57 2000:

        I have 'resume' on two Sony portables.  Have not seen it elsewhere.
I would like it on the component CD changer.


#28 of 53 by dbratman on Fri Feb 18 22:11:24 2000:

A couple years ago I bought a Sony plug-in CD player for my car which, 
I discovered, will not start playing anywhere but track 1.  So every 
time I stop the car and get out, when I get back in and want to start 
the CD again, I have to hit play, wait for the 10-second memory feature 
to load up, listen to the first note of track 1, and _then_ click ahead 
N times for track N-1 which I actually want.

It's a nuisance, but compared to the nuisances of Windows and Apple 
user interfaces (equally dreadful, in my view) which most people seem 
to consider FEATURES that they actually LIKE, it's hardly worth 
complaining about.  At least with the CD player I can get want I want 
with sufficient clicks, which isn't always possible with the mouse.


#29 of 53 by dbratman on Fri Feb 18 22:12:23 2000:

"what I want", sorry.


#30 of 53 by scott on Fri Feb 18 23:52:09 2000:

Hey, my Sony MiniDisc recorder does the resume bit.  And you can get this
modem (rz-55) for about $250 these days.


#31 of 53 by mcnally on Sat Feb 19 00:21:40 2000:

  My Pioneer CD player remembers where it left off and resumes at that
  point.  I'd always thought of it as a kind of annoying feature, but I
  suppose if you do a lot of start-and-stop driving it makes sense..

  re #227:  I like the idea of MiniDiscs, but I can't imagine myself
  investing in a portable player for another format with my huge investment
  in CDs.


#32 of 53 by arabella on Sun Feb 20 08:21:50 2000:

Minidiscs make the most sense if you do a lot of recording (which
I do of voice lessons and rehearsals to check on my singing
progress) or if you like to make mix tapes in the minidisc format
(which I also do).



#33 of 53 by scott on Sun Feb 20 15:14:00 2000:

Nice thing about using a digital format like MiniDisc is that pitch between
decks is no longer much of an issue.  I bet Leslie likes that feature even
more than I do.  :)

I've been dubbing stuff I'm likely to travel with onto MD for travel purposes.
A CD player just seems too huge and clunky, and I recently got a bunch of
blank MDs at Best Buy for about $2.20 each.


#34 of 53 by tpryan on Sun Feb 20 17:36:50 2000:

        Well, that price has improved recently.


#35 of 53 by scott on Tue Feb 22 01:06:41 2000:

Actually Best Buy has a number of MD things on sale right now.  You can get
a portable recorder for under $200, and they've got a home stereo deck for
$180 or so (no digital output, so I passed).


#36 of 53 by krj on Fri Mar 31 20:10:11 2000:

I've decided that it's time to stop fighting with the Ford factory 
stereo and get an aftermarket unit.  The AM section got very noisy
two years ago; it was fixed under warranty and is now going again.
The tape section started getting murky from the head drifting out
of alignment last year; I paid to have it fixed, and now it's going 
again.

In party, goose was talking up the virtues of the Aiwa stereos.
Aiwa is the only brand which consistently includeds an auxiliary input
jack in its front panel; I would want this to patch in the portable
CD player I use in the car, as described earlier.

Unfortunately Aiwa is not a very popular brand.  So far I have checked
leads at both Best Buy and Sears, and they carry one or two Aiwa 
stereos but not the entire line, and in particular not the high end.
(You have to go to a high-end unit now to get Dolby B.  See comments 
above about how decent features are being stripped out.)

I'm also not sure I like Aiwa's control logic, so I may drop back
to someone like Sony or Kenwood, and continue to live with the 
cassette adapter, as I have for five years.  It's not intolerable.
 
(As I mentioned before, I still use a lot of cassettes: mix tapes, 
radio timeshifting and tapes of old LPs.  So I don't want to go 
CD-only in the car.)


#37 of 53 by mcnally on Fri Mar 31 20:29:39 2000:

  Still, why not get a head-unit that can play both cassettes and CDs,
  assuming that one will fit in your dash?  Car CD players are not very
  expensive these days (compared to what they were) and an integrated
  unit is likely to be a better option than a cassette-only player with
  a line in..


#38 of 53 by krj on Fri Mar 31 22:52:21 2000:

Head units capable of playing both CDs and cassettes seem to be 
(1) fairly rare; (2) large, generally requiring a double-DIN opening;
(3) expensive, around $400.  At least that's what I'm finding 
in my cruising around the web.
If you have any specific model suggestions for me to 
look at, let me know.
 
As long as I've got you here, Mike:  who made the portable stereo 
you had in the dining room in your old home?


#39 of 53 by mcnally on Mon Apr 3 18:07:19 2000:

  The wacky 5 CD changer?  That was a Sharp..


#40 of 53 by krj on Mon Apr 3 21:29:34 2000:

Oh dear, what was wacky about it?
 
www.sony.com tells me I was underestimating the cost of a car stereo
head unit capable of playing both CDs and cassettes.  Sony says their
unit has a list price of $650.
 
Does anyone have any experience with Custom Sound in Ann Arbor?
In party, scg was telling me that's where he got a Sony unit installed.
But I peeked in their briefly Saturday, and it didn't look like they
had any mid-range equipment at all, just high end stuff, with 
prices on head units ranging from $400-$850.   Unfortunately I was 
on a tight schedule and could not stick around to chat with the sales
people.


#41 of 53 by mcnally on Tue Apr 4 18:09:52 2000:

  Oh, the only really wacky thing about it was the disk changer mechanism.
  Instead of working on a carousel system like most of the systems I've seen,
  it had a set of five sliding trays which were positioned sort of like this:

                                  \_______/
                      \_______/    ^          \_______/
           \_______/               |                      \_______/
                                  laser
  
  where the appropriate tray would shift up and into position and the others
  to the right or left of it would be displaced down and to the side..  It was
  just a sort of odd changer mechanism, and not as reliable in the long run as
  a carousel (or so I think..  anyway mine started having to re-seek frequently
  when switching trays after only 1 1/2 - 2 years of use..)


#42 of 53 by krj on Wed Apr 5 01:59:38 2000:

Thanks for the info.  
 
Back in car-stereo-land, I did some shopping around the Lansing area 
today and was mostly very discouraged.  Skory Auto Sound says they should
get some mid-price Sony units in eventually, but right now there is a 
nationwide shortage of Sony units because the manufacturer encouraged everyone
to clear out the 1999 models and then delayed the 2000 models.
 
Electronic Outlet says that the only cassette units which are selling 
are the cheap $100 ones; they are willing to special order me a mid-price
Pioneer unit, but they don't keep such items in stock.


#43 of 53 by lumen on Wed Apr 5 23:50:06 2000:

Hrm.. ever checked with the Crutchfield catalog (I think they have an 
on-line site)?


#44 of 53 by goose on Thu Apr 6 00:22:39 2000:

Or J&R...


#45 of 53 by cmcgee on Tue Dec 5 21:47:31 2000:

Ok, back to stereos and such.

I'm trying to put together a mid- to low- end system for playing music in my
apartment.  I have a Bose radio, without the CD player, and an old Hitachi
turntable with a Bang and Olafson needle-thing.  

The radio doesn't have much of an antenna, so I don't get much choice of
music.  I'd like to fix that.

I have very few audio tapes, and a fair number of CDs.  I can't hear either
of these at this point.  I'd like to fix that too.

Suggestions?  What about Kiwanis?  Other re-use options?  I really don't have
very well trained ears, so high quality is a future variable when I can afford
to think about my friends ears.  Or, if I can get old but high quality now,
I'll do it.  


#46 of 53 by krj on Tue Dec 5 22:16:23 2000:

Do you like the sound of the Bose radio?
 
I'm guessing that it has input jacks for a cd player or tape player.
My suggestion would be to get one of the portable CD players from 
Sony -- they start around $50-$60 at Best Buy -- and play it through
the Bose radio speakers, assuming that the interconnection is 
possible.
 
Does the Bose radio have one or two screw mount points marked ANT for 
Antenna?  If so, attaching any old scrap of wire there should help 
with radio reception.  A proper FM dipole antenna from Radio Shack 
can't cost more than $5-$7.

I'm not sure what the best way to go is regarding tape playing capability.


#47 of 53 by n8nxf on Tue Dec 5 22:50:42 2000:

I put a standard CD changer on my Model 88 (competes with the Bose radio) 
You can attach a tape player to the same input and switch between the CD and
tape with a little selector switch.  Even a record player could be added
provided you can find the little audio filter circuit that takes the emphasis
out of the audio recorded on the vinyl.  Phono inputs on receivers and amps
of days gone by included this little filter.  Some still may???


#48 of 53 by cmcgee on Wed Dec 6 02:03:10 2000:

Yes, it has a left and right Aux In set of holes.  And it has a teeny-tiny
diameter hole that is labeled FM 75 Omega External. (The holes are really
jacks (or is it plugs?)).  


#49 of 53 by keesan on Wed Dec 6 04:52:39 2000:

Kiwanis usually has those dipole antennas for about $1.  Tape decks for $10
and up.  We have some you can buy if they are out.  Occasionally there are
CD decks for $40 or so.  Omega is probably ohm - FM antenna of a different
type than the dipole one.  You should also check if there is a way to plug
in an internal antenna.  Stop by with the creature if you want Jim to look
at it, there might be some switch you have to set for the internal antenna,
or a wire to put on that sticks out of the receiver (with two ends).  The
other type of FM antenna is 300 ohm (omega stands for Ohm) and is the type
you spread out on the wall.  


#50 of 53 by lumen on Wed Jan 24 02:10:21 2001:

75 Ohm is just a single lead wire, 300 Ohm is usually a dipole antenna 
usually made of (yep!) 300 Ohm twin-lead wire


#51 of 53 by krj on Sun Jun 10 05:35:55 2001:

I'm looking over a Crutchfield catalog at my parents' house and realizing
that cassettes are on the way out.  In car stereo, Crutchfield offers 
very few cassette units which aren't lowest low-end.


#52 of 53 by orinoco on Mon Jun 11 00:31:34 2001:

<nods>  I was chatting about cars the other day, and there was an interesting
split between people in the conversation.  About half still thought of tape
decks as luxury options in a car.  The other half thought of tape decks as
an outdated idea, and a sign of a pretty cheap car.  Apparently "real" cars
these days just have CD slots.


#53 of 53 by scott on Mon Jun 11 01:31:55 2001:

One of these days I really  must replace my flaky tape deck.  Maybe it's time
for CDs... would certainly be more convenient than tape, although I like have
a few trashable tapes in the car instead of CDs.  Of course now that I have
a CD burner I could just burn CD-Rs for the car.  I'm certainly sick of all
the tapes I've accumulated in all the little storage spaces within reach of
the driver.


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