Grex Music2 Conference

Item 117: Country Music experiences

Entered by anderyn on Wed Mar 11 17:13:25 1998:

In other news, I found a CD yesterday. Now, there's nothing
particularly noteworthy in that, since I find CDs often, but normally
only in the pop/rock/folk/world music sections of the store, although
I have also been observed in new age and soundtracks and have made the
occasional foray into classical. But yesterday I went where no TOP had
gone before, at least not willingly -- into the country
section. Oooogh. Now, before you think I've gone totally mad, there
was a reason. I had been telling Rhiannon over the weekend that the
very first song I remember obsessing over was "The Battle of New
Orleans" by Johnny Horton. And, naturally, I then wanted a copy to
stop the tune from playing in my head. So I checked the CD database at
cdconnection, and discovered that it was collected on a CD of
"Americana", and I ventured into the alien land of country music to
see if I could stand to buy it. And, actually, it has several decent
songs on it, if you like the old west pop/country crossover songs that
date from the late 50's and early 60s (El Paso, Don't Take Your Guns
to Town, North to Alaska, etc.), which Bruce does and I more-or-less
do, since apparently they form part of my primeval soundtrack. I knew
far too many of them for my own peace of mind.

Now, my question is: what makes country music country ? What is the
definition, and why don't I think of those songs named above as 
country?
39 responses total.

#1 of 39 by lumen on Thu Mar 12 03:36:27 1998:

aaaaauuuugggggghhhh.  I really don't think there are any musicologists or
music historians here on Grex.  All I know is that what is generally
considered "country" is actually a convergence of country and western music.
If I remember even vaguely, country was the evolution of pioneer era American
folk, and western was a product of the old cowboy/rancher ballads. 
Aficionados of both didn't like the other's music at first: western fans
considered country to be too "folk," and country fans considered western music
to be too campy (think Gene Autry and I think you'll understand). 
I'm not sure where hillbilly music fits in exactly-- I think it was part of
the old country genre.  Nevertheless, the two styles of music merged together.

I think your confusion results primarily from the fact that country/western
began borrowing from rhythm and blues music after WWII.  This happened in the
early 1950's, soon after rhythm and blues was slightly modified and redubbed
rock n' roll.  I am not sure if 'rock 'n roll' existed long before
country/western music had an influence.  Rock and country/western began
borrowing even more heavily from each other as 'protest folk' arose in the
1960's.  There have been other influences in country/western music, including
Bossa Nova (Jimmy Buffet, maybe?), lounge music, pop, acid rock (?) (Junior
Brown), and even stand-up comedy (hey, that's Southern entertainment for you).
I figure this information is really sketchy-- I've seen it represented in an
illustration music educators use as part of a tree.

Now, defining country/western music today is very difficult-- many rock and
country tunes are compositionally the same (as writers will allow their
material to be interpreted in a variety of styles).  Sometimes, the only
distinctive characteristics is the Southern twang (real or fake) in the
singer's voice, and the tone color of the music (instruments used,
embellishments employed, combination and number and configuration of
instruments, etc., etc.)

I'm sure the university has TONS of great resource material on the subject--
why not look there?  (I can only think of additional resources for rock.)


#2 of 39 by scott on Thu Mar 12 12:06:50 1998:

"Country" is currently corporate product.  I do like old Eddy Arnold, though.


#3 of 39 by mcnally on Thu Mar 12 17:26:35 1998:

  There's nothing unique to "country" about being mostly "corporate product."
  Most other music that enjoys widespread popularity suffers from the same
  affliction.

  I'd agree though, that the majority of country music recorded today,
  including almost all of the big acts, is way too processed and formulaic
  for my tastes.  That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of great music to
  be found in the nooks and crannies of the genre, it just gets edged out
  by the money acts the same as everywhere else..


#4 of 39 by krj on Fri Mar 13 05:19:01 1998:

I'm sorry, I'm terrible with definitions.  Country music is what 
gets filed in the country bins.
 
If one formed an impression of jazz based on what gets played on 
"smooth jazz" radio stations, one might conclude that jazz, too, 
is all corporate product.  But "corporate product" is all most
listeners are going to encounter in any style unless they get down 
and root around under some rocks.
 
I can't think of any particular reason to file "Battle of New Orleans"
as a country song; I think of it as a pop song from when I was young.


#5 of 39 by orinoco on Fri Mar 13 22:26:53 1998:

I'm always surprised to see Bonnie Raitt, whom I always thought of as a blues
singer, filed under country.  


#6 of 39 by mcnally on Sun Mar 15 05:51:56 1998:

  So did anyone go see the Waco Brothers show at the Magic Stick tonight?
  I was greatly bummed to find out about it only this evening, after it
  was too late for me to attend..  If you did go, please enter a response
  in the concert review album..


#7 of 39 by krj on Mon Mar 23 22:01:56 1998:

I guess no one went from Grex.  Does the current activity level of 
the Waco Brothers -- they seem to be putting out an album every 9 
months or so -- mean that the Mekons are finished?  I notice that
the lead Waco, Jon Langford, has a solo disc out.


#8 of 39 by mcnally on Tue Mar 24 03:08:01 1998:

  Yes, Skull Orchard or something like that.

  I get the feeling that the Mekons are an on-again, off-again thing and
  that they're "off" for the time being.  Given the quality of their last
  few releases maybe that's not such a bad thing, either.  I'd just as
  soon they laid low for a while and got together again when they were
  ready to release an album or two of the quality level they hit with
  "Rock 'n' Roll" and "The Curse of the Mekons"

  Jon Langford isn't the only Mekon with a recent solo project -- seems
  like many of them (Langford, Sally Timms, Rico Bell, Waco Brothers, and
  others..) have been doing mostly non-Mekon work lately..


#9 of 39 by tpryan on Mon Mar 30 03:46:54 1998:

        I you put on a plaid shirt and sing with just your guitar, 
I think you're folk.  Add a bass, a slide guitar, possibly a drummer,
and add a cowhide jacket, with fringes, and sparkly things, and put
on a cowboy hat, you're country.


#10 of 39 by mcnally on Mon Mar 30 04:07:55 1998:

  But if you want to get played on country radio you have to affect a
  twang whether you're from a region where you might naturally have
  acquired one or not..


#11 of 39 by lumen on Wed Apr 1 01:59:58 1998:

that's the sh**iest thing I ever heard and is one of the biggest reasons why
I can't stand music labeled 'country'-- all those annoying accents, especially
on those who are faking it!


#12 of 39 by mcnally on Wed Apr 1 03:27:56 1998:

  To be fair, once again country music isn't the only genre where the
  popular media outlets are more concerned with image than with musical
  performance (how many female "adult contemporary" singers can you
  think of who are ugly or fat?) but given some of the traditional
  themes of country music it may be guilty of the greatest hypocrisy..

  Although it's natural to try and judge genres to which you do not
  normally listen by the output of the most prominent stars, consider
  your own favorite category of music and imagine what it'd be like if
  the biggest-selling performers were the only ones you got to hear.
  Pretty dreadful picture, isn't it? 

  That said, I find I like traditional country music a lot more than I
  like the direction in which most performers in the genre are currently
  headed..  I think current country music is being destroyed by its own
  success.


#13 of 39 by anderyn on Sun Apr 5 01:15:55 1998:

Well, my problem is that I don't like traditional country (well, at least
not the stuff I grew up listening to, though I will endure bluegrass),
and I don't particularly like modern country, either. I was really 
surprised to find that I liked the songs on the album I bought, because I
wouldn't have thought I would... 


#14 of 39 by mziemba on Sat Jun 6 13:41:15 1998:

What makes country music "country music"?  Well, historically it has roots
in both European and African musical traditions.
 
The primary European influence is Celtic music, which contributed an emphasis
on ballads and fiddling.  

Recently, it's been argued somewhat convincingly that the banjo was
derived from the African kora, likely carried over in the slave trade. 
Both instruments are stringed instruments with a resonating chamber
covered with some sort of membrane.  It also seems that there are some
similar musical patterns. 

Undoubtedly, as settlers moved west, taking their folk music with them,
certain strains began to emerge that focused on western frontier themes
like ranching and cowboys.  This probably lent itself to more individual
performances, later incorporated into the idea of fronting a band with a
primary singer/performer.
 
Nashville established itself as a musical hub for country by the 1930s via
radio broadcasts from the Grand Ole Opry, which, interestingly, refused to
accept drums for a long time after.

This, however, didn't stop the influence of blues, and later, rock 'n'
roll.

The roots of country music form the basis for what we recognize as
country music today:  an emphasis on stringed intruments like the fiddle,
guitar, and banjo and a concern with rural themes and frontier life.



 


#15 of 39 by anderyn on Tue Jun 9 01:49:48 1998:

Well, see, the really weird thing is that I *like* fiddle music, and guitaur,
and I'll even accept banjo, but I just don't like the "twang" in what I
call country music.


#16 of 39 by mcnally on Tue Jun 9 02:56:26 1998:

  Do you mean the "twang" in the music or the "twang" in the vocals?
  If the latter, I agree -- I get pretty put-out by the vocal affectations
  of some country musicians, especially if I later hear them talk and it's
  apparent that the way they sing is not anything like the way they talk..  


#17 of 39 by anderyn on Tue Jun 9 13:53:22 1998:

Mostly in the vocals. But there's
also a certain flavour in the music
that I just don't like, but it's hard
to describe. Um. And it's even 
more apparent to me in vocals 
when it is by someone who's 
NOT putting it on ....


#18 of 39 by lumen on Tue Jun 9 22:19:19 1998:

I'm not fond of the electric slide, especially in country music.  It was first
developed in the contemporary music of Hawaii after WWII, I believe.  Electric
slide in modern Hawaiian music is okay, I guess, but it's begun to become
cheezy.

Modern country is really bubblegummy, which makes me especially nauseous. 
The old notion that country songs are often laments of life's disappointments
don't seem to be true anymore.

One of my biggest complaints is that I can't seem to relate to the music--
that is, not just the lyrics, but the whole lifestyle around it.  Next one
is all those suburban and urban 'cowboys' who claim to be country but have
never farmed or ranched in their life.  Poseurs.

I guess I just relate more to sex, drugs, and rock n' roll (and everything
before and after that).


#19 of 39 by mcnally on Wed Jun 10 07:14:51 1998:

  All valid complaints, and things that bug me about modern country music,
  too, especially your point about the lifestyle package that's sold along
  with the music -- it doesn't have much to do with the way I see myself nor
  does it hold much appeal for me.


#20 of 39 by mziemba on Thu Jun 11 12:22:36 1998:

Country's just been musically inbred for a while -- modern commercialization
has just forced stagnation.  It's beginning to change a little, however.  I
see more country artists beginning to borrow from outside their immediate
musical heritage, going farther back to blues, bluegrass, and folk.

In fairness, other popular music styles haven't been immune to this syndrome.
As much nostalgia as I hold for the 80s, I don't think it was an exceptionally
experimental time.  I see much more growth, now.


#21 of 39 by tpryan on Sun Jul 26 21:53:26 1998:

        There is still a lot of separation between singer and songwriter
in country music.  We have seen more and more songwriters that are the
performer, but we still see a lot of artists that have the Nashville 
powers-that-be find songs for them.  I think this path has reduced 
creativity in country music, as the powers-that-be *know* what a hit
should read like in the lyrics and sound like in the music.

<tpryan reads music.cf first time since June or so>


#22 of 39 by lumen on Sun Aug 2 08:51:34 1998:

Oh, that's how country has found so much fame these days!  Must make marketing
a hell of a lot easier-- just get a pretty face and a golden voice, and don't
worry about whether a person that possesses those can write or not.

Of course, country's been selling out, too.


#23 of 39 by mcnally on Mon Aug 3 16:36:15 1998:

  That's not really a "these days" phenomenon, as Tim hints in #21.
  That's been a part of the country music industry for a *long* time.


#24 of 39 by tpryan on Tue Aug 4 03:19:36 1998:

        Actually with more country artists than Nashville can hold,
Country is finding more popularity, partly because there is more 
to choose from.


#25 of 39 by katie on Wed Aug 5 00:36:23 1998:

What`s wrong with having a golden voice and not being a writer?


#26 of 39 by tpryan on Fri Aug 7 02:48:02 1998:

        Nothing wrong with that.  I love to hear the golden voiced
performer only.
        Just that when the golden voiced and not quite golden voiced
go thru the 'hit making machinery' you sometimes end up with a 
product more produced for the hit than a songwriter telling their
story and/or emotion.


#27 of 39 by krj on Tue Aug 11 20:20:44 1998:

The idea that the songwriter and the performer should be united in 
one person is a fairly recent one.  I think it dates specifically to 
Bob Dylan; as the most influential songwriter of the 1960s, he set a 
model that a lot of people wanted to follow.  And then there were the 
Beatles; they played lots of covers on their early albums, but they 
also just happened to have the era's greatest songwriting team in 
Lennon & McCartney.  
 
Anyway, we came out of the 1960s and 1970s with a mindset which looked 
down on people who didn't write their own material.  
 
From a folk music perspective, this is an oddity; one of the points of 
(traditional) folk music is that it is passed along.  We don't really 
have an oral tradition any more, so the closest that we get to the old 
folk process is when the work of really good songwriters gets picked up 
by other performers. 
 
There was a quote in a recent issue of FOLK ROOTS magazine which I don't have
with me.  I think it was from Dave van Ronk: "We need ten song 
interpreters for every song writer."


#28 of 39 by mcnally on Tue Aug 11 21:09:39 1998:

  Well, Puff Daddy will soon have covered every song in the western
  musical tradition.  I guess that means we need nine more per song..  :-)


#29 of 39 by cmcgee on Wed Aug 12 03:14:04 1998:

In the pop music scene during the 40s and 50s, it was the song that was on
the hit parade, not the arrangement or singer.  The concept that a song and
singer were irevocably linked wasn't in place at that point.


#30 of 39 by mcnally on Fri Aug 14 06:00:20 1998:

  All this talk of performers interpreting others' songs reminds
  me that I've been meaning to ask if anyone has any opinions on
  "Mermaid Avenue", the album where Billy Bragg and Wilco cover
  a bunch of previously-unrecorded Woody Guthrie songs..


#31 of 39 by krj on Sat Aug 15 21:05:51 1998:

(I've lost my copy, alas...)


#32 of 39 by krj on Wed Sep 9 18:45:33 1998:

I finally found my copy of "Mermaid Avenue."  I gave it a few more plays
and realized:  
   I don't like Wilco very much.
   I only like Billy Bragg intermittently.  (Sorry, Mark!)
   There are two catchy songs on here -- "Way over yonder in the minor 
        key" and "Ingrid Bergman," and I can live very nicely without
        the rest.  O well.


#33 of 39 by mcnally on Thu Sep 10 04:27:31 1998:

  In general I like Billy Bragg, I like Woodie Guthrie, and I like alternative
  country bands.  This particular combination, though, didn't sound like the
  best idea to me -- singing isn't Bragg's strong point, Wilco doesn't do much
  for me, and songs that an artist never got around to recording often remain
  obscure for good reasons.  After a ho-hum first impression from the listening
  station at Borders it would've taken some really enthusiastic praise to get
  me really interested in "Mermaid Avenue" -- sounds like I'm not gonna get it.



#34 of 39 by albaugh on Thu Sep 10 20:16:27 1998:

Alan Jackson is singing tonight at the Ford Dearborn proving grounds.


#35 of 39 by scott on Sat Dec 4 13:14:54 1999:

I've finally actually listened to Junior Brown, who I'd heard about but not
experienced.  He's sort of a traditional musician, but has created the
"Guit-steel", a doublenecked electric guitar/steel guitar.  Turns out he
sounds a bit like Eddy Arnold, but isn't adverse to more recent influences
in guitar playing.  The band is a bit minimalist; the drummer is usually his
wife, playing nothing but a snare drum.

Refreshingly free of the annoying "country" sound that sells big these days.
He even seems to have a sense of humor!


#36 of 39 by lumen on Mon Dec 6 00:47:57 1999:

Junior Brown just rocks.  I first heard about him through the promo 
magazine that Sam Goody/Musicland puts out. I haven't listened to an 
entire album of his, but he did have a video for a song that I did see, 
and I was impressed between what I read of him and what I heard.

He's appealed to a much broader audience than just the country fans-- I 
understand some of the alt rockers like him.

Leave it to a Texan =)


#37 of 39 by scott on Mon Dec 6 02:17:05 1999:

I just he hadn't put a lame-ass obligatory "blues" tune on the CD.  


#38 of 39 by krj on Tue Jun 26 21:24:21 2001:

I'll recycle this item for a web pointer to a review of the 
Carnegie Hall concert from the folks who recorded the soundtrack 
to the film O BROTHER, WHERE ART THOU; that soundtrack album 
is back at #1 on the country album charts despite nearly zero 
airplay, possibly due to the home video release of the film.
 
Slate's writer liked the show a lot.

http://slate.msn.com/culturebox/entries/01-06-21_110797.asp




#39 of 39 by gelinas on Wed Jun 27 05:34:35 2001:

Interesting discussion above.  I'm glad someone mentioned the Grand Ole Opry;
"country" is a lot older than the Fifties. ;)

While listening to Katie sing "Crazy" Sunday, I just *had* to remind Cindy
of the songwriter's name.


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