Grex Music Conference

Item 41: The death of the classical music recording industry

Entered by richard on Tue Apr 24 15:24:26 2007:

56 new of 77 responses total.


#22 of 77 by mary on Wed May 2 18:58:16 2007:

Again, Richard, you are looking at it from the point of view of a 
connoisseur willing and able to purchase the latest high-priced release. 

CDs last.  The music on them easily migrates to newer, lighter, smaller 
devices (iPods). I'm happy with my collection.  I seldom buy new classical 
recordings yet I thoroughly enjoy classical music.  I'm the problem, I 
guess.   


#23 of 77 by richard on Wed May 2 19:13:41 2007:

re #23 Maybe you are part of the problem Mary.  You shouldn't just be 
satisfied with the old recordings in your collection.  You should want 
to hear modern musicians new interpretations.  Suppose you have the 
best cello works ever written, as they were recorded in the seventies, 
and feel your collection is complete.  So you won't buy any new cello 
works.  This would mean you have missed out on all the great work Yo 
Yo Ma has done re-interpreting the great cello works during the last 
decade and a half.  It would be a music experience you are depriving 
yourself of having.

Now Yo Yo Ma has sold plenty of records by now, but new artists like 
him won't have the same chance.  The labels aren't putting out nearly 
as many records anymore.  Because people like Mary won't buy them 
anymore.



#24 of 77 by edina on Wed May 2 19:19:55 2007:

You know, I knew that Mary was the catalyst for the breakdown of 
polite and cultured society - now it's good to know we have proof.

;-)


#25 of 77 by richard on Wed May 2 19:20:46 2007:

re #23 I mean by some people's attitudes, you'd think they'd tell Yo 
Yo Ma he shouldn't even bother re-recording the great Brahms cello 
concertos with his nearly three hundred year old Davydov Stradivarius 
cello.  I mean Brahms has been done before right and people are 
satisfied with their collections?



#26 of 77 by cross on Wed May 2 19:29:56 2007:

Can you smell the self-righteousness?


#27 of 77 by richard on Wed May 2 19:35:53 2007:

re #26 what self righteousness?  I just think too many people these 
days fail to see classical music as an evolving art form.  They think 
Brahms is Brahms is Brahms.  Beethoven is Beethoven is Beethoven.  The 
classical music recording industry is dying out because too few see 
the value of new interpretations anymore.  Once they have a catalogue, 
thats it.


#28 of 77 by nharmon on Wed May 2 19:40:07 2007:

So, Richard. Do you think artists should be allowed to sue people who
take the music they wrote and "reinterpret" it? Like, say, Weird Al?


#29 of 77 by marcvh on Wed May 2 20:31:34 2007:

Moreover, there aren't enough artists recording standards these days,
or doing covers of Beatles songs.  It's a dang shame.


#30 of 77 by anderyn on Wed May 2 20:52:14 2007:

I'm not fond of classical music. It's not what I want to listen to. I do have
a few recordings (well, mp3s, on my iPod) because I got interested in the 
particular work, but on the whole, I don't buy it, old, new, reinterpreted,
or whatever. On the OTHER hand, I have several versions of some of my favorite
folk songs, just because I love hearing lots of different voices and different
variants of the lyrics -- though, on the GRIPPING hand, some people ARE the
definitive singers/interpreters of the songs in question, and I wouldn't want
to hear any other versions at all. (Ask me about "Matty Groves" sometime, if
you want to hear why I adore the Fairport Convention version above all others,
and not the one with Sandy Denny singing lead, either. Which makes certain
people (hi, KRJ!) wince, because I'm so so wrong about that.)


#31 of 77 by slynne on Wed May 2 20:55:26 2007:

I can sympathize with richard's frustration about people having 
different tastes than he has. I know that I sometimes feel similar 
frustration when favorite tv shows are cancelled. But even so, richard, 
it is kind of arrogant to call other people's personal tastes "wrong" 
or even to imply that their tastes are part of some problem. 


#32 of 77 by richard on Wed May 2 20:57:27 2007:

re #29 there are plenty of artists doing beatles covers and other songs 
by them.  They are next month in fact releasing a heavily hyped new 
album of Lennon covers to raise money for Darfur, "Instant Karma: The 
Campaign to Save Darfur."  REM does John Lennon's #9 Dream, Green Day 
does "Working Class Hero", Christina Aguilera does "Mother", the Cure 
does "Love", Black Eyed Peas do "Power to the People" and Willie Nelson 
does "Imagine" among others.  


I mean I suppose if you had the Beatles "With a little help from My 
Friends", why would you want Joe Cocker's cover version?  A song is a 
song right and your collection is complete with just the original?  Or 
if you have Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower", why bother spending 
money on the version Jimi Hendrix put out right?  

re #31 I am not in any way calling other people's personal tastes 
wrong.  It has nothing to do with a particular person's "tastes", it 
has to do with persons being unwilling to try new things.  The 
classical music industry is losing its customer base because its 
customers don't want to try the new samples.


#33 of 77 by slynne on Wed May 2 20:59:05 2007:

Oh and I also wanted to comment about things like works of literature 
being reinturpreted. It turns out that they often are and if you pay 
attention, you might see the same story being told over and over again. 
You know Pyramus and Thisbe becomes Romeo and Juliet becomes West Side 
Story, etc. 


#34 of 77 by richard on Wed May 2 21:13:16 2007:

re #33 yeah but you are talking total re-writes, stories based on other 
stories. Much of art is derivative of earlier art.  However, West Side 
Story doesn't bill itself as Romeo and Juliet.


#35 of 77 by marcvh on Wed May 2 21:48:46 2007:

Re #32: you prove my point.  None of those groups became famous for doing
Beatles covers.


#36 of 77 by cyklone on Wed May 2 22:30:45 2007:

Richard also fails to note that doing "remakes" of popular music is far
different than rerecording the same score with a different orchestra. A better
comparison would be when orchestral works are rearranged for smaller groups.


#37 of 77 by slynne on Wed May 2 22:42:06 2007:

resp:34 That is true. But some people buy the movie version of West 
Side Story and never bother to see every other interpretation of it 
ever put on by anyone. ;)



#38 of 77 by jep on Thu May 3 14:16:41 2007:

I doubt many artists create pieces with the intention that they would be
used by future generations.  Dante, Brahms, Rodin, Virgil and Picasso
all created works which were relevant to contemporary audiences.  So did
The Beatles, Warhol, Disney and Faulkner.  I doubt if any of these
artists would be much bothered that anyone in a later time would
re-interpret their work.  I bet they'd all be thrilled that anything
they did would still be relevant at all a hundred or a thousand years later.


#39 of 77 by naftee on Fri May 4 03:16:07 2007:

re resp:20

You're right that music requires the intermediary of a performer.  but that's
it. Every single person who attends a performance of Mahler's ninth symphony
will come home with their own unique "interpretation" or perspective of the
work.  It's the same as every person who reads Bukowski's "Ham on Rye" will
have their own opinion of the whole novel.  Composers write music to be heard,
not just performed; just as writers wrote novels to be read, or painters
created paintings to be seen.

In fact, the performer's job is precisely to be as invisible as he can.  He
should study the work, find out what the composer is trying to say, and convey
that message to the audience.  Sure; the performer's personality will show
through his performance.  But that's a quirk, and not a means to an end.


#40 of 77 by cyklone on Fri May 4 12:24:25 2007:

Your view, if accepted, also points out the contradiction between 
"classical" and popular music. The idea that the performer should 
disappear in subservience to the composer's intent is not an article of 
faith in pop music. In fact, people tend to enjoy fairly radical 
reinterpretations in which the evolution of the song itself is key, not 
stict maintenance of the composers intent. Hell, we don't even really know 
if the early composers wanted their own scores to remain petrified in one 
style or not, although it is my understanding that at least some left open 
areas for some form of improvisation. One apt comparison might be to look 
at pop music "tribute" bands. Are people really interested in buying some 
imitator's note for note recreation of Pink Floyd, or are they more 
interested in something more radical, like Dub Side of the Moon? I think 
classical music suffers when it lacks this perspective.


#41 of 77 by jep on Fri May 4 17:58:13 2007:

If the performer was not important, no one would ever applaud.  No one
would ever think of applauding upon hearing a recorded piece, would
they?  You applaud to show your appreciation to the musician.  The
conductor bows in acknowledgement of the applause at the end of a
classical (art music) performance.  These are signs of a human event,
not a mechanical one.


#42 of 77 by krj on Fri May 4 18:16:43 2007:

Have you never seen applause at the showing of a motion picture?   :)


#43 of 77 by remmers on Fri May 4 18:23:10 2007:

Re #40 re #39:  Indeed.  In early "classical" music (Baroque period
through the era of Mozart and Haydn, more or less), it's my
understanding that some improvisation on the performer's part was
expected in a lot of situations.  Later on, as the cult of the composer
as superstar developed, improvisation was deemed less appropriate.

But even so, in the music of any period or genre -- sure, in learning a
piece the performer should consider the composer's intent and try to
respect it, but that doesn't mean that two different performers will
arrive at the same conclusions or that they shouldn't bring some of
their own style to the work.  In performing a work, even if you feel
constrained to play it note for note as written, there's usually room
for interpretation in such matters as tempo, dynamics, and articulation,
all of which can affect the listening experience is significant ways.

Re #41:  I don't think naftee is saying that the performer is
unimportant, rather that his or her duty is to reproduce the composer's
intent faithfully -- which can require considerable skill and is
certainly applause-worthy.  I wouldn't go so far as to say that the
performer should become "invisible", however.  (See previous paragraph.)


#44 of 77 by edina on Fri May 4 18:33:49 2007:

I felt that Alanis Morrisette's interpretation of the Black Eyed 
Peas' "My Humps" was both completely faithful to the original, but yet 
managed to create a totally different message.  YMMV of course.  ;-)


#45 of 77 by marcvh on Fri May 4 18:45:13 2007:

How about Baby Spice's cover of "Downtown"?


#46 of 77 by nharmon on Fri May 4 19:19:09 2007:

Luther Wright and the Wrongs, Rebuild the Wall is a country version of
Pink Floyd's The Wall. I liked it.


#47 of 77 by slynne on Fri May 4 19:47:36 2007:

I always loved Aztec Camera's version of Van Halen's Jump. Talk about 
an interpretation!


#48 of 77 by naftee on Fri May 4 19:57:35 2007:

re 40 If I understand correctly, you're talking about bands playing their own
music.  In this case, I'm sure that the imitation band will try to copy
as much as possible what the original band does, since there are recordings
available of the originals.  With art music ("classical music"), unless you're
dealing with the twentieth century, there aren't any recordings available of
the composers conducting their own works.  Strictly speaking, I don't think
that it's fair to compare the thousands of different interpretations of
Beethoven's works with a band whose job it is to imitate.

I'd be also wrong to point out that musicians imitating what others do does
not exist it art music.  It does.  There are accepted "standard" tempi for
Mozart's and Beethoven's symphonies.  But those are a result of an overall
average tempo as a result of the numerous performances.

Composers differed on their opinions of interpretations of their works, as
well.  Brahms hated any performance of his symphonies where the tempo in a
movement was strict from beginning to end.  He would also approve of two very
different performances of his works, if he judged that the performance were
done sensitively.  On the other hand, Stravinsky would be extraordinarily
severe in his critiques of performances that did not follow exactly the tempi
or expressions indicated in the score.  These are points that the conductor
or performer should take into account.

I'll admit that my opinion is that the performer should try to convey as much
as possible the composer's exact intentions.  But, as I mentioned above,
sometimes the composer wanted the performer to do what he thinks is best.

Also, attending an art music concert is very much like watching a Shakesperian
play.  There are numerous points in common.

re resp:42 I've never quite understood the applause after a display of
fireworks.


#49 of 77 by cyklone on Fri May 4 22:51:56 2007:

I admit my analogy is a bit off, in particular because most pop music 
lacks the "conductor" element. However, when you look at the way classical 
music is re-recorded compared to the way pop music is re-recorded, 
classical is much more toward the "tribute band" side of the spectrum. 
While I know virtually nothing about the current state of classical music, 
I'd guess you could count all the "radical remakes" on one hand. And while 
I am aware that some conductors are known to be more determined to impose 
their own personality on someone else's music, even then I think you find 
far fewer, total or percentage-wise, than you'll finding musicians willing 
to radically remake pop tunes.

John Mellencamp once made an interesting comment about the songs he wrote. 
He said they're like children. You do your best with (recording) them and 
then you let them go to see how they do after that (in the hands of others 
or in his own later re-works). I don't think you can find a similar 
attitude among the composers of classical music.


#50 of 77 by twenex on Wed May 16 15:52:11 2007:

For Richard's information, I like Joe Cocker's cover version of With a Little
Help... so much that I mayactually prefer it to the original.


#51 of 77 by edina on Wed May 16 15:54:21 2007:

There are a bunch of covers that are better than the original, number 
one in my mind being Manfred Mann's "Blinded By The Light", originally 
written by Bruce Springsteen.


#52 of 77 by twenex on Wed May 16 17:31:02 2007:

That's another one...


#53 of 77 by tod on Wed May 16 19:19:04 2007:

All Along the Watchtower by Hendrix is a good remake.  And Sinatra's version
of My Way.


#54 of 77 by richard on Wed May 16 19:26:27 2007:

I really like Sheryl Crow's cover of Cat Stevens, "The First Cut is 
the Deepest"  Of course not saying it was necessarily better than his 
original:



"I would have given you all of my heart 
but there's someone who's torn it apart 
and she's "taken" almost all that I've got 
but if you want, I'll try to love again 
baby I'll try to love again but I know 

The first cut is the deepest, baby I know 
The first cut is the deepest 
'cause when it comes to being lucky she's cursed 
when it comes to lovin' me she's worst 
but when it comes to being loved she's first 
that's how I know 

The first cut is the deepest, baby I know 
The first cut is the deepest 

I still want you by my side 
just to help me dry the tears that I've cried 
cause I'm sure gonna give you a try 
and if you want, I'll try to love again 
but baby, I'll try to love again, but I know 

The first cut is the deepest, baby I know 
The first cut is the deepest 

'Cause when it comes to being lucky she's cursed 
when it comes to lovin' me she's worst 
but when it comes to being loved she's first 
that's how I know 

The first cut is the deepest, baby I know 
The first cut is the deepest"






#55 of 77 by bhelliom on Wed May 16 21:13:50 2007:

If you're so concerned, Richard, why not get some people together and
volunteer to do a small-time music appreciation seminar for young
people?


#56 of 77 by durrett on Thu May 17 00:43:11 2007:

Joe Cocker's live version of "feeling alright" rocks.
 


#57 of 77 by mcnally on Thu May 17 04:46:27 2007:

 Ugh.  I don't like Joe Cocker and his massacre off a decent
 Traffic song is at the head of the list of reasons why.
 Blech.

 But how did we get from "classical music" to "classic rock"?


#58 of 77 by cyklone on Thu May 17 11:40:09 2007:

We were discussing the idea of remakes and the widely different views 
between classical music and pop music as to the validity of radical 
remakes. I agree that simply pointing out radical pop music remakes does 
not really address why the differences exist


#59 of 77 by tod on Thu May 17 18:23:02 2007:

Speaking of song choices..
Dear Todd,

Hillary needs your help. We've been working on an important issue -- the kind
that can make or break a campaign. And your input is absolutely critical to
ensuring that we make the right decision. 

That's right -- we're picking our campaign song. 

We've got a great selection up in an interactive poll on our website, with
artists like Shania Twain, U2, KT Tunstall, the Dixie Chicks, and more. Visit
the site, listen to the songs, and make your choice. Or you can suggest one
of your own. 

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/campaignsong 

Thanks for participating. And don't miss Hillary's announcement of the song
contest on YouTube -- you won't want to miss it. Trust me. 


Patti Solis Doyle 
Campaign Manager 
Hillary for President 


#60 of 77 by mcnally on Thu May 17 19:38:36 2007:

 Some suggestions that probably will *not* be adopted:

   "Witchy Woman"  by the Eagles
   "Venus in Furs" by the Velvet Underground
   <suggest your own..>


#61 of 77 by tod on Thu May 17 19:50:21 2007:

Bleed For Me by the Dead Kennedys

Super Freak by Rick James


#62 of 77 by marcvh on Thu May 17 20:04:55 2007:

"Barbie Girl" by Aqua


#63 of 77 by mcnally on Thu May 17 20:22:19 2007:

 I think we have a winner with "Super Freak"..


#64 of 77 by tod on Thu May 17 21:00:41 2007:

"Don't Cha" by Pussycat Dolls


#65 of 77 by edina on Thu May 17 21:11:33 2007:

Hahahahah!!!!


#66 of 77 by marcvh on Thu May 17 21:16:47 2007:

That would only work if she staffed her cabinet with strippers who would
dance behind her while singing it.  Failing that, "My Humps" would also
be a good choice (not the Alanis Morissette version.)


#67 of 77 by tod on Thu May 17 22:34:31 2007:

I find it insulting if a woman doesn't try to use sex appeal as leverage
therefore I suggest Hill come out dancing like Shakira to "Money Maker" by
Ludacris


#68 of 77 by richard on Thu May 17 22:46:48 2007:

This response has been erased.



#69 of 77 by richard on Thu May 17 22:49:21 2007:

They could re-work the theme song "Aquarius" from the musical "Hair":

This is the dawning of the age of Hillary
The age of Hilllarrry!

Harmony and Understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revealation
And the mind's true liberation
Hillary!
Hillary!

When the moon is in the seventh house
and Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will guide the stars

This is the dawning of the age of Hillary
The age of Hillary
Hilllllarrrry!




#70 of 77 by edina on Thu May 17 22:52:22 2007:

As if.  I love her but truly believe that HRC will split this country 
faster than a melon at a Gallagher show.


#71 of 77 by tod on Thu May 17 23:19:45 2007:

Bring back insane madmen like Ross Perot!


#72 of 77 by richard on Thu May 17 23:33:36 2007:

See this is the problem with classical music, you can't even do an 
item about it without it drifting.  Because classical music doesn't 
hold people's attention.  Heck, I'm even doing the drifting myself!  

I'd say Mozart is turning over in his grave, but of course they don't 
know where that is exactly as he died broke and couldn't afford one.  
Even then people weren't appreciating the music enough were they?  


#73 of 77 by bru on Thu May 17 23:45:10 2007:

no man, she definitely needs an elvis song.

"Devil in Disguise"


#74 of 77 by tod on Fri May 18 06:13:58 2007:

re #72
Mozart was probably disinterred after 7 years since that was the custom at
the time to reuse plots.  They'd take the bones of John Doe and bust em up
into a powder and rebury along with the new corpse.


#75 of 77 by katie on Fri May 18 20:07:39 2007:

So he was de-composing.


#76 of 77 by marcvh on Fri May 18 20:10:25 2007:

I'm sorry, but it's against the law for women to make puns.


#77 of 77 by easlern on Sun May 20 00:47:10 2007:

I like Jeff Buckley's "Hallelujah" cover. Sp?


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