Grex Helpers Conference

Item 76: Grex System Announcements Item

Entered by i on Tue Dec 22 04:53:49 1998:

51 new of 156 responses total.

#106 of 156 by steve on Wed Feb 24 17:12:10 1999:

   Wow.  Thats cool.

#107 of 156 by remmers on Wed Feb 24 18:30:10 1999:

Grex seems to be running along pretty zippily on 256M. Thanks to
arthurp and steve for their efforts!

Thanks also to keesan and jdeigert for the photocopier.

#108 of 156 by keesan on Wed Feb 24 19:47:56 1999:

See the coop item on tax deductability of dues, this copier will allow grex
to keep better tax records as a nonprofit.

#109 of 156 by steve on Wed Feb 24 21:40:54 1999:

   The interesting part about that memoey is that we really are using it.
Watching the 'vmstat' program is fun; you can see when lots of sendmails
fire off, with the pool of available memory going down.  We're doing a lot
less swapping right now, which is a good thing.  I'm still on the lookout
for more ram, and once we have the alternate Sun-4/670 populated with 64M
ram, I'd like to get more memory here.  ...I shall continue to beg for
ram. ;-)

#110 of 156 by janc on Fri Feb 26 18:21:16 1999:

A test version of Backtalk 0.9.6 is now available on Grex.  To try it go to

  http://www.cyberspace.org/cgi-bin/pw/bt.new/pistachio/confhome?conf=backt
alk

IMPORTANT NOTE:

    This has been deliberately broken so that you can only join the
    "backtalk" and "backtalk2" conferences.  It will claim all other
    conferences do not exist if you try to join them.  It does some
    different things with item files, and we want to make sure it isn't
    going to drive Picospan crazy before we allow it into any of the
    regular conferences.

    If you want to go back to reading the other conferences, change the
    "bt.new" in the URL back to "bt".

WHAT'S NEW:

  - HTML responses.  You now have the option of using HTML tags in
    your response and item text.  This means pictures, tables, links,
    font changes, and so forth can be done in responses.

    Sanity checking is done on the HTML to make sure you don't use
    any tags that would mess up the page, and to close any tags
    you left open.

    Backtalk automatically generates a (much less pretty) plaintext
    version of all HTML responses so that Picospan users don't have
    to look at HTML tags.

  - Preview button.  Lets you see what your response would look like if
    posted, both to other Backtalk users and to Picospan users.  Very
    useful for composing HTML responses.

  - Forget works better.  Fixed some bugs here.

  - A few more button color options.

  - Updates to help files.

  - More aggressive item indexing.  Item indexing makes Backtalk faster,
    but it used to be so timid about it that it wasn't being done in
    most conferences.

  - Several minor bug fixes.

And various other features not relevant to Grex:  support for password
protected conferences, lastlog maintainance, better user list functions
(turned off here because we have too many users), and better Yapp
compatibility.

#111 of 156 by other on Fri Feb 26 18:59:26 1999:

wow.  sounds like te html parsing required a lot of work and will make
conferencing a whole new range of fun stuff!  thanks, jan!!

#112 of 156 by other on Fri Feb 26 19:29:31 1999:

just tried it, but communicator 4.05 crashed twice at the same spot (scrolling
through responses).  running a powerbook 190cs (68lc040) with os 8.0.

#113 of 156 by hhsrat on Sat Feb 27 03:38:11 1999:

YAPP compatibility is a good thing?  I used YAPP on M-Nut for a few 
days, and it drove me crazy.  (this was back in Nov.)  Backtalk seemed 
like a much more sophisticated interface.

Maybe things have changed

#114 of 156 by senna on Sat Feb 27 10:16:16 1999:

Not that fast.  You might want to keep tabs on what people do with html,
becuase it's possible for that to be misused.

#115 of 156 by jep on Sat Feb 27 21:55:15 1999:

The current YAPP interface for the WWW is buggy to the point where I 
can't stand using it.  I've used Backtalk about every day for a year 
and a half, and I'm very pleased with it.  I hope M-Net will adopt 
Backtalk if it's compatible with the YAPP text system.

#116 of 156 by dang on Sun Feb 28 03:43:50 1999:

YAPP compatability refers to Backtalk working with YAPP the way it does 
with Picospan.  Backtalk itself doesn't seem any different, either way.

#117 of 156 by steve on Sun Feb 28 04:05:31 1999:

   Grex has been running for 96 hours now with the new ram and
repaired memory card, so I think that can be called a success.
If either the card or individual SIMMs were to have failed we'd
have experienced it.  Thanks to Charles for some nimble repair
work on that card!

#118 of 156 by russ on Sun Feb 28 04:26:15 1999:

Uh-oh.  I'm not sure I like what this represents, Jan.  The strength
of Grex (and M-Net, once) was what the users brought to it.  When the
conferences become more of an impromptu web page where most of the
content is links, Grex will become a poor cousin of SlashDot.  The
inaccessibility of the graphical content to many computers is another
negative to this change.  Up to now, anybody with a dumb terminal and
a modem could be a full participant.  When large parts of the conferences'
content is only accessible using much more advanced (and expensive)
hardware, what becomes of that part of the user base?
 
I fear this will be like the file read feature in party:  most often
used to dazzle rather than illuminate.

#119 of 156 by mcnally on Sun Feb 28 05:58:09 1999:

  Put me down in the Luddite column, too..  I think the addition of
  HTML extensions is unlikely to add much (beyond annoyance) to responses.
  I hope there's a way to turn it off and still enjoy the other benefits
  of the new Backtalk version..

#120 of 156 by steve on Sun Feb 28 06:48:00 1999:

   Russ, Mike: the technology is changing, and *fast*.  All three of
us are old-timers; what we know and have used is not what the masses
use.  The web is the net.  Not a component of it, but the backbone as
seen by an ever increasing number of people.  Probably we should move
this discussion to another item, however.

#121 of 156 by janc on Sun Feb 28 19:02:56 1999:

I'd have no huge objection to turning it off (there isn't a way right
now, but it isn't hard to add - eventually I plan to make it a setting
that fairwitnesses can fiddle with on a per-conference basis).

Frankly, I don't believe it will be a problem.  Simple HTML gets
translated to plaintext just fine.  Doing things like images and tables
well is enough extra work that few people will bother, and you won't
mind missing responses where people do them badly.

And I do agree with STeve - Grex has to keep exploring current
technology.  We don't have to try everything that comes along, but we
have to be adverturous in trying things.

#122 of 156 by keesan on Sun Feb 28 23:03:34 1999:

I would appreciate if people would not put anything in their responses that
cannot be easily accessed by dial-in users.  If there is a link, make sure
that we can read the URL if we want to go look at it with lynx.

#123 of 156 by janc on Mon Mar 1 00:31:35 1999:

One thing I want to see is something that does that automatically.  If I
enter an HTML response like:

  Visit my <A HREF=http://www.wwnet.net/~janc>home page</A>.

It should generate a plain text response for Picospan that looks
something like:

  Visit my [http://www.wwnet.net/~janc] home page.

Of course, even now any picospan user can see the HTML version of any
response by doing, for example:

  !extract -h agora 3 123

This will print response 123 of item 3 of the agora conference,
prefering the HTML version, if there is one (there isn't).  Without
the -h flag it gets the plain-text version.

#124 of 156 by steve on Mon Mar 1 01:25:28 1999:

   I think what Backtalk is doing is perfectly reasonable.  It takes
the html stuff and makes plaintext out of it, which is the proper
thing to do.

#125 of 156 by omni on Mon Mar 1 06:54:56 1999:

  And above all, disable the blink command. Not everyone is as stable
minded as me. ;)

#126 of 156 by jshafer on Mon Mar 1 15:43:40 1999:

What he said.  No blinking!

#127 of 156 by aruba on Mon Mar 1 16:27:29 1999:

I'd like to announce that Grex had a great month, financially, in February.
See the treasurer's report for details (item:coop,80).

#128 of 156 by dang on Tue Mar 2 22:18:26 1999:

I agree.  No blinking.

#129 of 156 by gregb on Wed Mar 3 04:27:05 1999:

I've been to other conf systems, like Electric Mind, that allow HTML 
tags, and things seem to work out fine, for the most part.

One thing that could help, is to set up a conf. for those who want to 
try out HTML.  This will give people a place to get use to it before 
taking it into the regular confs.  Granted, not everybody will be so 
accomidating, but I think the majority would.

Oh, and I agree with the others:  <blink>NO BLINKING!</blink>  (Yes, I 
know it won't work.)

#130 of 156 by janc on Wed Mar 3 20:43:22 1999:

When the new Backtalk goes live, it will have a feature in it that
allows fairwitnesses to disable HTML posting in their conference if they
so please.  There are definately some conferences where HTML posting
would be very nice - web, auction, enigma and test come to mind.

The BLINK tag has been on our banned list since day zero.

However, animated GIFs are still possible.

#131 of 156 by danr on Wed Mar 3 22:54:12 1999:

As soon as it's up, i think we should have a contest for the worst animated
gif. :)

#132 of 156 by orinoco on Wed Mar 3 23:37:57 1999:

There's already a test conference, which could be used for trying out HTML
and whatnot.

#133 of 156 by jazz on Thu Mar 4 14:05:07 1999:

        Finally someone who bans blinking tags.

        Now if only we could ban MIDIs entirely ...

#134 of 156 by remmers on Thu Mar 4 22:14:51 1999:

Re HTML responses in Backtalk: I agree with STeve in resp:120 that this
should have its own discussion item. HTML conferencing would represent a
major change to the user interface, and like other major changes to Grex
- the internet connection, outgoing internet access policy, anonymous
web reading, etc. - there should be user discussion and input prior to 
making a decision on installing it. Coop would be the appropriate
conference.

I will say that I tried out the 'backtalk' conference using the new
version of backtalk, and it really does do HTML.

#135 of 156 by janc on Thu Mar 4 23:34:39 1999:

I've installed a much newer version of Apache on Grex.  You shouldn't
notice any difference.  If you do, let me know.

#136 of 156 by remmers on Sat Mar 6 20:58:19 1999:

Re resp:123 - I notice that Backtalk doesn't process the first URL
correctly. It should treat the ">" as a terminator, but doesn't.

Jan has entered an item in Coop to discuss HTML in Backtalk postings.
It's item 82 (item:coop,82).

#137 of 156 by mwg on Wed Mar 10 14:49:38 1999:

Unless Grex has plans to ban all non-HTML access, web pages should be the
only place it is allowed.  While it is possible to read past the rubbish
when using telnet, I don't usually waste my time on it.  HTML popping up
is a fairly swift way to chase me off a system.

#138 of 156 by remmers on Wed Mar 10 17:29:53 1999:

Backtalk produces a plain-text version of each HTML response entered. 
Picospan will always show you the plain-text version, so normally there 
shouldn't be rubbish to read past.

I think there are some issues regarding HTML posting that warrant 
discussion. As noted earlier, the discussion is happening in Item 82 of 
the Coop conference (item:coop,82).

#139 of 156 by albaugh on Thu Mar 11 16:06:51 1999:

I don't know how anyone "bans" a blink tag...  Meanwhile, please note that
many animated .gif files regularly crash various versions of Netscape,
especially if used in combination with Javascript.

#140 of 156 by scott on Thu Mar 11 19:36:21 1999:

Backtalk apparently (according to Jan) will be doing things like making sure
tags are closed, etc.  Certainly if the HTML is submitted thru the Backtalk
interface it is possible to remove any blink tags before putting the stuff
into the file.

#141 of 156 by janc on Thu Mar 11 21:03:48 1999:

Yup.  Javascript in responses is also not going to work if the response
is submitted through Backtalk.

#142 of 156 by other on Fri Mar 12 02:11:20 1999:

what will happen if lazily tagged html is entered through picospan?  will
backtalk fix that in showing it, even though it won't be able to edit the text
for picospan readers to clean it up?

#143 of 156 by scott on Fri Mar 12 11:53:24 1999:

Jan's version (heck, maybe I should let Jan answer questions about his own
software ;) ) will be putting the HTML in a different place than the Picospan
text.

#144 of 156 by other on Sat Mar 13 06:23:39 1999:

i mean if somone is running picospan and enters an html response, say, without
proper close tags...

#145 of 156 by scott on Sat Mar 13 11:49:38 1999:

I would guess the same thing that happens now... Backtalk doesn't actually
*do* anything, so you see the tags as is.

#146 of 156 by aruba on Sat Mar 13 21:25:43 1999:

I'd like to announce that I have closed the last auction item with bids on it,
so the auction is over unless someone bids on something which has thusfar been
overlooked.

Thanks to everyone who donated things to the auction:

arthurp, aruba, atticus, beccap, beeswing, bhaalu, cmcgee, coyote, danr,
headdoc, hematite, janc, jep, jh, jiffer, keesan, mary, mary's sister Pat,
misha, mta, omni, aruba's roommate Paul, remmers, Carol's brother Rick,
srw's co-worker Rick, tpryan, valerie, wolfg676, and zook.

And thanks to everyone who bought something (and paid for it :)):

andyb, aruba, atticus, beeswing, bkwdbuny, brighn, bruin, cmcgee, coyote,
dea, desolato, devnull, fungster, gypsi, happyboy, janc, jep, jiffer,
jshafer, kami, katie, kentn, krj, misha, mooncat, mta, n8nxf, n8rxs, omni,
orinoco, otaking, otter, phenix, roadtrip, robh, rosie0, rtg, scott, snow,
toking, tpryan, and valerie.

Here are the current totals:

Status                    Count    Total
------                    -----    -----
Open items                   11
Closed but unpaid items      39   479.00
Paid but undelivered items   28   336.01
Delivered items             171  1033.75
                            ---  -------
                            249  1848.76

Thanks everyone!

#147 of 156 by scott on Sun Mar 14 00:02:51 1999:

Thanks for all your work, Mark!

#148 of 156 by mary on Sun Mar 14 13:03:05 1999:

(Mary stands and applauds Mark.)

#149 of 156 by danr on Sun Mar 14 22:34:39 1999:

<<danr thanks aruba>>

#150 of 156 by valerie on Mon Mar 15 20:34:30 1999:

This response has been erased.


#151 of 156 by srw on Mon Mar 15 21:05:05 1999:

if you open a tag that needs closing, backtalk will close it in your 
response so that it does not pollute following reponses. 

thanks Mark!

Backtalk (even the old version) does seem to have a bug in the 
clickifying logic as reported in resp:136. That's my department. I'll be 
working on a fix for it.

#152 of 156 by srw on Mon Mar 15 21:05:55 1999:

I updated the telnet page on our website - it was vadly in need of this.
see http://www.cyberspace.org/info/telnet.html

#153 of 156 by remmers on Wed Mar 17 11:45:22 1999:

The next Grex Board of Directors meeting is at 6:30 pm, Tuesday March
23, at Zingerman's Next Door, 422 Detroit Street, Ann Arbor. The public
is invited. See Item 85 in the Coop conference (item:coop,85) for the
agenda.

#154 of 156 by scott on Wed Mar 17 20:39:21 1999:

Wow, all the modems were busy for at least a few minutes this afternoon.

#155 of 156 by mcnally on Wed Mar 17 21:56:32 1999:

  I got a busy signal last night..  It's ironic (for those of us who
  Grexed or M-Netted before the internet connections) that getting a
  busy signal is news, but things are certainly different now than they
  once were..

#156 of 156 by orinoco on Thu Mar 18 03:56:40 1999:

<nods in approval...yay internet connection - yay staff!>

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