Grex Health Conference

Item 70: Diet/Nutrition

Entered by beeswing on Sat Oct 2 20:43:24 1999:

62 new of 91 responses total.


#30 of 91 by omni on Mon Oct 4 07:03:30 1999:

  And as far as frest meat goes, I'm not going to worry about it, since I
don't have ready access to a kosher butcher.


#31 of 91 by rcurl on Mon Oct 4 07:03:54 1999:

It seems pretty obvious you can eat a kosher *diet* (re nutrition) without
any of the ceremonial aspects.


#32 of 91 by katie on Mon Oct 4 11:19:36 1999:

(But why?)


#33 of 91 by flem on Mon Oct 4 20:59:13 1999:

People on diet food commercials sometimes talk about sweet cravings, 
salt cravings, crunch cravings.  Who gets those?  I can't recall ever 
having such a craving.  What I do get are fat cravings.  :)

I am not a vegetarian.  Most of the reasons for becoming one don't apply 
to me, in one way or another.  I like the taste and texture of meat.  I 
am not concerned enough about my health to stop eating meat entirely on 
those grounds, although I do try to limit the ratio of meat to other in 
my diet.  Industrial farming practices do not bother me ethically.  
Eating something that was once alive doesn't bother me; I suspect that I 
would eat dead human, if it were an ethically acceptable situation to 
me.  
  But I can understand why others might choose differently.  


#34 of 91 by swa on Tue Oct 5 04:59:45 1999:

You're trying to limit the ratio of meat to other in your diet?  You
wouldn't mind eating dead human?  Eric, you had better watch out...

I find myself agreeing with #12 and #20.  I don't quite understand why
so many people find it deviant to not eat meat (which is the norm in some
parts of the world) and find vegetarians therefore to be either incredibly
exotic or just very silly.  To me it seems like one perfectly normal,
healthy option among a variety of options... 

Yes, I know that some vegetarians can be just as militant and obnoxious.
I lived with one for a little while.  But I've just had one too many
conversations lately along the lines of "Would you like some (bacon, ham,
etc.)?"  "Well, um, actually I'm a vegetarian..."  "Really?  Why?!  Don't
you think plants have feelings too? Sadist!" to be properly sympathetic
right now...




#35 of 91 by gull on Tue Oct 5 15:01:54 1999:

A friend of mine who's a vegetarian (but not militant about it) went to
college in Pullman, WA for a while, which is a fairly rural area.  He says
when he told people he was a vegetarian, he got looked at like he'd just
said, 'I only eat styrofoam.'

I think very few vegetarians are militant; I think other people just can't
handle the idea of someone with a different lifestyle.  They feel
threatened, so they have to try to convince vegetarians that their lifestyle
is WRONG.  The vegetarians I've known would only argue about it if you
started it. ;>


#36 of 91 by orinoco on Tue Oct 5 17:32:25 1999:

It's kind of like what happened to the word "feminist," which originally meant
"I think women are people too," but which is often interpreted as if it meant
"I hate men".  I think a lot of people hear "so-and-so is a vegetarian" and
think "so-and-so hates me because I eat meat" -- and so they feel compelled
to be defensive or justify themselves somehow.


#37 of 91 by jazz on Tue Oct 5 19:44:39 1999:

        
        Well, that's partially because a lot of people who call themselves
feminists do actually hate men, or consider sex to be exploitment (which makes
me wonder what they think of homosexuality).  Their words are writ large, and
reflect on others who call themselves feminists.

        That's true, to a lesser degree, of vegetarians.  Some vegetarians are
rabid about their personal food choices.  But for the most part it's just a
normal social reaction to a small group with a marked behavioural difference.


#38 of 91 by keesan on Tue Oct 5 23:11:22 1999:

I think the reasons for vegetarianism vary - personal health, planetary
health, animal rights, etc., and this influences whether the vegetarian is
trying to convert other people.  Someone eating vegetarian because the doctor
said to is less likely to proselytize than is a pet lover.


#39 of 91 by janc on Wed Oct 6 01:59:45 1999:

Jazz and I live in different worlds.  I've met only a couple women who
appeared to "hate men" and in each of those cases getting to know more
about them demonstrated that that description was not very accurate. If
there are "a lot of" man-hating feminists out there in real life (as
opposed to in the media) then I've somehow missed them.

The same goes for aggressive, proselytizing vegetarians.  I've never met
anyone who goes around condemning other people for eating meat.  Sure,
if you ask them, many will tell you that they think it's immoral to kill
an animal for food, but I don't know anyone who routinely goes around
demanding that meat-eaters stop eating meat, or trying to pressure them
into doing so.


#40 of 91 by swa on Wed Oct 6 03:10:21 1999:

What happened to the word "feminist"?  Just what I was asking in another
item!  Dan is reading my mind!  ...but I agree with Jan.  Scary feminists
get more media attention than saner ones -- this does not mean they are
more numerous.

Regarding rural areas: during the most recent cross-country drive, we
stopped at a deli in Dalhart, Texas.  I attempted to order a cheese
sandwich.  They looked at me blankly.  "We have ham, turkey, BLT, and..."
"Um, no, actually, I'd like a cheese sandwich."  "Well, yes, but what kind
of meat do you want on it?"  "CHEESE SANDWICH!  Two slices of bread, one
slice of cheese!  Please?  Pretty please?"  I have no idea how vegans
manage to survive.

I'm not even goign to get into France...



#41 of 91 by beeswing on Wed Oct 6 03:29:57 1999:

Heh. Veggies are few and far between in these parts. I can't imagine 
being veggie in France. 

Vegan food kind of scares me. Well mainly vegan cheese. I see it in the 
health food store and it puzzles me. It sits there, all squared and 
wiggly, like it could sit there 1000 years. I can't see how it would 
taste like cheese.

I have noticed also that a lot of vegans smoke. Huh? And supposedly, 
tobacco has traces of lactose/milk solids. Which would be a no-no for a 
vegan. 


#42 of 91 by mdw on Wed Oct 6 05:26:50 1999:

Generally, I try not to be militant about being a vegetarian, but I
found when I visited my family that I had to be militant, or I'd get the
short end of the stick at meal-times.  It's not that they meant to, but
taking the meat out of a typical meal != a good vegetarian diet.  I
think I eventually got the last laugh; I had a pretty decent home-made
tofu stir-fry when the rest of them were "enjoying" some fairly awful
take-out chinese.


#43 of 91 by omni on Wed Oct 6 06:19:22 1999:

  I'm still having trouble convincing my mother that I am off certain types
of pork (bacon, pork chops, pork roast). Tonight she offered me a "nice pork
chop". I declined for the nth time. I think it's akin to a parent who is in
denial about thier child being gay. They don't want to believe it's actually
true, yet it is. I don't have the heart to tell her that I'm bi.


#44 of 91 by aruba on Wed Oct 6 14:16:05 1999:

Re #41: "I can't see how it would taste like cheese."  I have a hard time
seeing how anything tastes - I have to taste it.  :) :) :)


#45 of 91 by beeswing on Wed Oct 6 17:48:02 1999:

oh, thhhpt :P~  


#46 of 91 by keesan on Wed Oct 6 17:52:00 1999:

I think that people who are vegetarian or vegan for reasons of their own
health are less likely to eat in restaurants, which do not generally offer
healthy food.  Why pay someone to put two slices of bread around some cheese
for you anyway?  For the same price you can make 10 of your own sandwiches.


#47 of 91 by gull on Wed Oct 6 21:42:20 1999:

I went to a Chinese restaurant once with a friend of mine and his family. 
He's vegetarian; his family isn't.  After he had requested three or four
times that they not order too many appetizers, because there were no
meatless appetizers and they delayed his being able to get on to the main
course, his family went on to order *loads* of them.  Fortunately he found
one meatless selection he'd overlooked, so he didn't have to sit and watch
them eat for 15 minutes before he could get anything.  I thought his family
was being amazingly rude and unaccomodating.


#48 of 91 by mcnally on Wed Oct 6 22:50:16 1999:

  Absolutely.  How inconsiderate of them not to change their customs to
  accomodate his morally superior position!

  It's a toss-up, I guess.  He's asking them to all change their behavior
  to accomodate his preferences (rude) and they're ignoring his request
  (also potentially rude.)  A more sensible course of action (had he not
  found a meatless appetizer) would perhaps have been to ask the kitchen
  to prepare his entree in advance of the mail course.  Shifting the
  burden to the restaurant (who are being paid to be accomodating) isn't
  anywhere near as rude as asking his family to change their meal because
  of his wishes.


#49 of 91 by arabella on Thu Oct 7 00:33:25 1999:

Re #41:  Austria is terrible for vegetarians.  Austrians really
like meat, and I must say, they prepare it very well.  I met a
Finnish vegetarian at the airport the day I left, and she told 
us how difficult it had been to spend the summer in Germany and
Austria as a vegetarian.  We were all eating lunch together (after
our flight had been cancelled), and she seemed to be enjoying
her french fries.  It was then that another member of our group
decided to tell this nice girl that pretty much all french fries 
in Germany and Austria are cooked in lard.  The Finnish girl 
turned a lovely shade of green.


#50 of 91 by beeswing on Thu Oct 7 03:15:44 1999:

Eep. Prague wasn't that way. Most places had vegetarian options, just 
not too many of them. Ireland, however... had I been a vegetarian, I'd 
have starved to death. 


#51 of 91 by gull on Thu Oct 7 21:11:56 1999:

Re #48: I suppose.  It just didn't seem like much of a sacrifice for them --
he didn't say they couldn't have appetizers, just asked that they please
limit them to maybe two or three plates.


#52 of 91 by otter on Sat Oct 9 18:32:41 1999:

ref #23: OK, I should have said, "as long as your dairy is kosher". And I
didn't mention the utensils because that's implied by the term. Sheesh.


#53 of 91 by keesan on Mon Oct 11 04:39:31 1999:

Prague and Sofia both had vegetarian restaurants.
I can post a list of how much of each food you would have to eat for a day's
required protein, assuming that was all you ate.  If you mix things like beans
and wheat, you need less of each as the limiting amino acids are different.
One cup raw brown rice or one cup raw chickpeas, cooked, give you all the
complete protein you need.  The combination (half a cup of each) would give
you maybe 1.5 times what you needed.  We eat at least that much rice at a
normal meal.  So meat is certainly not needed for protein, unless people are
not eating any grains, beans or even nuts.  Candy is low protein.  Cottage
cheese, 1 cup, has about double a day's protein requirement, and a pound of
meat 5-7 times the requirement.  Excess protein is broken down, and interferse
with calcium absorption and puts a strain on the kidneys.  Meat does have
certain vitamins in higher amounts that do grains or beans.


#54 of 91 by mdw on Mon Oct 11 05:27:49 1999:

Proteins needs can vary quite a bit.  Heavy exercise can increase one's
protein needs (both to repair damage caused by the exercise, and to
increase muscle bulk.) Getting part of one's daily calorie requirements
from protein can also be a good thing, because protein takes the longest
to digest and therefore staves off hunger the longest.

Some vegetable sources are more complete protein sources than others.
Corn, for instance, is particularly non-complete (but can be improved by
reacting it with alkali, if done carefully).  Getting complete amino
acids, though, is not usually a big problem.

What's actually harder is getting all the necessary vitamins.  Corn,
rice, etc., are not particularly good sources of most vitamins.  A and C
aren't too hard to get, as most fresh vegtables are good sources of one
or the other of these.  A is fat soluable and the body is pretty good at
recycling it, so it's not critical to have it at every meal.  A raw
carrot, now and then, is a perfectly adequate way to get sufficient A.
C is water soluable, and the body will flush excess C away rather than
storing it.  So it's more important to get C on a regular basis.  Citrus
fruit, onions and green peppers are all decent sources of C.  One of the
*best* sources of C and A turns out to be raw violet leaves.  These are
actually far more concentrated than orange juice, so a little goes a
long way.  I find in practice that the hardest vitamins to get are some
of the B vitamins, and I solve this by having brewer's yeast.  A
tablespoon or so of this in water is a reasonable beverage.  One of the
odd things is that it tastes *much* better if I'm running a bit low on B
vitamins.


#55 of 91 by scott on Mon Oct 11 11:00:16 1999:

This item linked to the Health conference.


#56 of 91 by keesan on Mon Oct 11 16:02:23 1999:

Meat does not contain any vitamin C that I know of.
Alkali-treated corn has more niacin.  I did not know that it affected amino
acid content, but perhaps it converts one acid to another.
Good sources of C:  papaya, broccoli, brussels sprouts, peppers, strawberries,
cabbage, mustard greens, turnip greens.  Number 29 is raw oysters, one cup
of which provides less than one cup of broccoli.  (The oysters must have
feasted on vegetables recently).  Beef liver has a small amount, chicken none.
The best sources of niacin, a B vitamin:
mushrooms, wheat bran, brewer's yeast, tuna, chicken, liver, salmon,
asparagus, oysters, bok choy, shripmp, romaine lettuce, peanuts, peaches,
peppers, cauliflower.

Thiamin (ranked by amount per calorie):  yeast, romanie, ham, wheat germ,
mushroom,s bacon, asparagus, sunflower seeds, green peas, pork, alfalfa seeds,
lettuce, mustard greens, tomato, squash, bean sprouts, broccoli.
Ranked by total amount:  pork chop or ham, 3 oz, equals 1/4 cup sunflower seeds
or 2 cups green peas or black beans.
Daily thiamin requiremement is 1.0-1.5 mg (higher value is for teenage males).
One tsp brewer's yeast gives 1.25 mg.  Someone averse to eating brewer's yeast
(recommended for vegans) might be advised to eat meat for the thiamin content,
but a vitamin pill would do as well, if they did not want to eat beans or
peas.  One way to get 1.0 mg is one potato, one cup squash, one cup oatmeal,
and half a slice of watermelon.  A whole slice of watermelon surprisingly hass
half your daily requirement!  No wonder Jim eats so much watermelon.  He says
he will have some right now for breakfast.  He eats not a slice but a quart
or so of watermelon.

Grains have little thiamin or niacin, which is why you are supposed to combine
them with beans, not just for the amino acid balance.  

The other B vitamins are common in vegetables:  riboflavin in dark leafy
greens (one cup beet greens has mor than a cup of milk);  b6 in cabbage family
(cabbage, bok choy, turnip and mustard greens, cauliflower, broccoli) and
peppers and awhole lot in bananas, navy beans, potatos, again watermelon, soy
beans, spinach, dried figs (with far fewer calories than in meat, another
common source of B6)  
B6 requirement  about 2.0-2.2 mg/day, or three cups of beans, or one cup plus
a potato and a slice of watermelon.  or 1.5 pounds of steak (which would
provide most of your calorie requirements at the same time)

Folacin - dark leafy vegetables, almost none in meat.  Spinach 262 mg/cup,
chicken breast 3 mg.  Americans tend to have folacin deficiency.

B12 is found in animal products but you can buy brewer's yeast with B12 added
(it is grown on a B12 containing medium) or take pills, and it is also found
in the dirt on fresh vegetables, and in tempeh grown the old-fashioned way.
(B12 is produced by bacteria).

Vitamin A is found in liver.  THe liver stores it, after it has been consumed
in the form of dark green or orange vegetables and fruits.

You would have to be eating a really unbalanced diet not to get enough
vitamins (other than B12) from non-animal sources, other than possibly niacin
and thiamin.  Thiamin can also be produced by the body from the amino acid
tryptophan.  The daily requirement (sans tryptophan) is available also in 4
oz peanuts.

Fat also digests slowly, for those who cannot be bothered to eat often.


#57 of 91 by rcurl on Mon Oct 11 17:35:26 1999:

Vitamin C can be isolated from the adrenal cortex of the ox. I don't think
it is produced by mammalian cells, but could be by gut bacteria.


#58 of 91 by keesan on Mon Oct 11 19:13:20 1999:

I heard Sri Lankans produce their own vitamin C.  I think most mammals produce
their own, at least the carnivores do.  Eskimos eat stomach contents.
We just ordered 25 pounds of raw peanuts, bulk.  They are good in stir fries,
or toasted and mixed with raisins as a late night snack.


#59 of 91 by orinoco on Mon Oct 11 20:15:37 1999:

I had no idea that chickpeas were so protein-rich, or that you need so little
protein that a cup of chickpeas will be enough.  Interesting.

What is the old-fashioned way to grow tempeh?  For that matter, what is
tempeh?


#60 of 91 by danr on Mon Oct 11 22:13:50 1999:

I've been reading about low-carbohydrate diets lately, and am seriously
considering changing my diet to one.  Basically, the idea is that eating too
many carbohydrates stimulates insulin production, which in turn, promotes fat
production.  This seems to fit with my experience, especially of late.  My diet
is relatively high in carbohydrates, and although I get a lot of exercise, I
seem to be getting fatter.  

There are several books out on the subject, and basically what they call for is
less carbs and more protein, along with some fat.  A diet properly balanced
helps better regulate your insulin production, and thereby how fat you are.


#61 of 91 by drewmike on Mon Oct 11 23:57:10 1999:

No Vitamin C in meat? Um... Duh! Orange beef? Seven bucks a quart?


#62 of 91 by mdw on Tue Oct 12 03:28:24 1999:

My recollection (many years old) is that liver was one of the few meat
products high in vitamin C (and many other vitamins and minerals.)
Brewer's yeast is also a common constituent of vitamin pills.


#63 of 91 by rcurl on Tue Oct 12 05:34:25 1999:

Please provide documentation for production of vitamin C by mammalian
cells. Vitamin C is found in every cell in mammals, as it is essential
for many metabolic functions, but as far as I have been able to find
out, it is not a product of any mammalian metabolic process. It must be
obtained from external sources (which can include animal tissue rich
in it, although most is not - witness that scurvy results only from
a lack of fruit and vegetable sources of Vitamin C).


#64 of 91 by arabella on Tue Oct 12 09:25:00 1999:

I have read that cats produce vitamin C in their bodies, though
I'm not sure of the mechanism.  i will try to find a cite.



#65 of 91 by i on Tue Oct 12 10:43:44 1999:

_The Nutrition Bible_ (ISBN 0-688-11619-1) shows 3 oz. of beef or pork
liver containing 33% of RDA of vitamin C.  Not what I'd call "high" -
4 oz. of fresh-squeeze orange juice has over 3 times as much.


#66 of 91 by jazz on Tue Oct 12 13:01:26 1999:

        Well, it's water-soluble, whaddya expect?


#67 of 91 by rcurl on Tue Oct 12 16:35:30 1999:

It has been pointed out that every cell in mammals contains vitamin C -
but it was not produced (syntheisized) there.

I suppose the British Navy used limes instead of liver, and hence became
called "limeys", because liver did not store as well. If it had, maybe
they would now be called "liveries".



#68 of 91 by remmers on Tue Oct 12 17:04:44 1999:

Re danr's resp:60 - I've had very good success with a "moderately low"
carbohydrate diet.  Since switching to one about 18 months ago, I lost
over 25 pounds in the first 9 months -- virtually all of it fat loss --
and have been very stable in weight ever since.  Since losing the
weight, I feel better physically and emotionally than I have in years,
and seem to have no tendency to put pounds back on.  And while I was
losing weight, I didn't feel like I was starving myself.

What I've been on is the so-called "Zone" diet, which is a 40/30/30
regimen (40% of calories from carb's, 30% from protein, 30% from fat),
maintained at every meal and snack.  There's more to it than that,
though.  I recommend getting hold of Barry Sears' "Zone" books and
slogging through them -- a somewhat painful experience, but the
benefits have proved well worth it, in my case at least.


#69 of 91 by keesan on Tue Oct 12 17:22:53 1999:

Liver, fried, 3 oz, 23 mg vitamin C.  One cup orange juice 124 mg, so 3 oz
orange juice (which is mostly water) 46 mg.  Liver is full of all sorts of
toxins, which the body detoxifies there.  Liver 185 calories, orange juice
111 for the cup, or about 20 calories for the same amount of C.  Too much
liver eating will give you vitamin A overdose.

Jim suggests eating high-fiber carbohydrates to control insulin production,
rather than white flour, white rice, sugar, and the like.  They take longer
to digest and you don't feel hungry so soon.  Try beans and whole grains.
Protein excess is broken down and interferes with the metabolism - ketosis
from too many ketone bodies.  
'It is possible to consume too much protein.  ...protein overload effect, seen
in the hypertrophy of their livers and kidneys.  People who wish to lose
weight may be handicapped in their efforst if they consume too much protein
(due to inadequate intake of fruits, vegetables and grains, which are low
calorie).  Diets high in protein necessitate higher intakes of calcium as
well, because such diets promote calcium excretion.  There are evidently no
benefits to be gained by consuming a diet that derives more than 15 percet
of its kcalories from protein, and there are possible risks as intakes rise
to 20 or more percet of kcalories which kcalories are adequate.'  (I. e., if
you are on a weight reducing diet, over 15% is okay, for short periods, it
is the absolute not relative amounts).
        Animal products are usually high in fat, since domesticated animals
have been bred specifically to be fatty and to contain solid fats.  Wild
animals are about 5% fat, like grains.  Skim milk or chees from it are lower
fat.  
        We are not trying to lose weight, in fact we would like to gain weight,
and we eat lots of carbohydrates, in unrefined form.  I suspect that Remmers'
lifestyle changes (walking more) have been the main reason for his weight
loss, plus his former diet was probably even higher in fat and protein than
his Zone diet.  


#70 of 91 by remmers on Wed Oct 13 01:18:21 1999:

I don't think so.  When the fall semester started last year and
I got busy with school, my exercise activity dropped drastically
but I continued to lose weight over the next several months, at
about the same rate as during the summer when I was much more 
active.

My former diet was actually lower in protein and fat than my
current one, but much higher in carbohydrate, especially of the
starchy variety.

A point that's often overlooked about the Zone diet is that it's
a restricted-calorie diet.  Part of it involves calculating your
daily food needs based on your lean body mass and activity
level.  If you follow the recommendations, you end up consuming
a lot fewer calories than the average American gets.  Since most
Americans are overweight, it's not surprising that most people
lose weight on it, even if they're not very active.  (Although
Sindi might actually gain weight...)  

What I found to be so different about the Zone from other
weight-loss approaches I've tried is that I am able to stay on
it without feeling that I'm starving myself.  That plus my
improved sense of well-being is why I've stuck with it, I'm sure.

I've read quotes about excessive protein consumption similar to
the one Sindi gives in #69.  I'm sure that excess protein can do
all that, but I don't think the Zone diet is excessive.  It is
specifically formulated to balance the protein with enough
carbohydrate to avoid ketosis.  (In contrast to extreme high-
protein, low-carb diets like Atkins, which is designed to induce
ketosis.)

Much of what Sindi says is quite compatible with the Zone diet.
Generally, it recommends getting most of one's carbohydrate from
high-fiber foods: fresh fruits and vegetables, beans, and whole
grains, and minimizing intake of refined flour and sugar products.
Also, protein sources should be low fat (e.g. chicken, turkey,
soy), and red meat should be minimized or avoided altogether. 
Fat consumption should be mainly of the monounsaturated variety
(e.g. olive oil and various kinds of nuts), with saturated
fat being avoided.  

My take on the Zone is that it's a moderate, sensible diet that
works, not just as a temporary weight-loss strategy but as a
permanent approach to eating.


#71 of 91 by gull on Wed Oct 13 02:29:52 1999:

I'm not sure how effectively I could limit my calorie intake.  I've never
gone and calculated how many calories I eat in a day, but I have what a
friend of mine refers to as a "hummingbird metabolism."  I pretty much have
to eat every four or five hours while I'm awake; after about four hours or
so, I start to get tired, irritable, and depressed, and I have trouble
concentrating.  I do best if whatever I eat has a fair amount of protein;
too much sugar is the worst thing, it helps for an hour or so and then I
come down off it hard.  Usually I kind of snack my way through the day,
because it tends to keep my moods more stable and keep me alert.



#72 of 91 by mdw on Wed Oct 13 07:14:11 1999:

My recollection is that while most mammals can synthesize vitamin C, all
primates (and some other species) can't.  On the other hand, I believe
humans can synthesize vitamin E, but rodents can't.  I don't see any
obvious web pages that discuss this in general, but I did find this for
pigs:
        http://www.jefo.ca/references/ref_porcivit.html
(It's clear from the page that neonatal pigs can't synthesize C, but
adult pigs can.)


#73 of 91 by gracel on Wed Oct 13 15:34:52 1999:

What I've heard about vitamin C is that guinea pigs and humans don't produce
it for themselves, but other mammals do.   (Some of our cats were healthier
when I gave them extra anyway, notably the two with recurring urinary tract
infections)


#74 of 91 by rcurl on Wed Oct 13 17:26:24 1999:

I accept the provided evidence that (some) mammalian cells can synthesize
VItamin C.


#75 of 91 by peacefrg on Wed Oct 13 21:40:37 1999:

Does anybody know how dolphins would react to it?


#76 of 91 by keesan on Wed Oct 13 23:32:06 1999:

Perhaps the excess vitamin C, which is ascorbic acid, acidified your cats'
urinary tracts.  Cranberry juice is used for this purpose.  
Carbohydrates are either starches or sugars, the former taking longer to
digest than the latter.  Unrefined starches are inside cell walls, which are
composed of cellulose, which I think is also considered a carbohydrate, but
people cannot digest it, and rely on their intestinal microbes to help.  A
very fibrous diet can cause gas until your microbes adapt, as can lactose 
(milk sugar) in people who do not have the enzymes to digest it, as the
bacteria in the lower intestines feast on what was not previously digested
and produce carbon dioxide and hydrogen sulfide.


#77 of 91 by rcurl on Thu Oct 14 04:02:16 1999:

It is not possible to produce hydrogen sulfide from lactose.


#78 of 91 by keesan on Thu Oct 14 15:55:13 1999:

I know that, but you can produce it from excess protein (amino acids sometimes
have sulfur in them) that makes it to the large intestine because it was
enclosed in a cell wall and therefore not digestible by human enzymes.


#79 of 91 by rcurl on Thu Oct 14 19:27:50 1999:

What has that got to do with lactose intolerance, alluded to in #76?


#80 of 91 by keesan on Thu Oct 14 19:34:12 1999:

Lactose is one of several things that make it to the large intestine and are
broken down by bacteria there.  I presume the lactose goes to carbon dioxide
and alcohol by fermentation, making one 'gassy'.


#81 of 91 by jiffer on Thu Oct 14 20:09:14 1999:

Dairy products are actually broken down by enzymes.  But one doesn't just get
gassy with lactose intolerance.  There is all the cramps, the diaherea, the
nausea, etc.  Any more questions about the pain?

And usually the symptons are pretty immediate or soon after, that is why i
am careful when I do eat diary products.  


#82 of 91 by rcurl on Fri Oct 15 07:13:12 1999:

It is the growth of bacteria feeding on the undigested lactose that leads
to the symptoms.


#83 of 91 by keesan on Fri Oct 15 16:04:13 1999:

In essence you have spoiled milk in your large intestine.  Supposedly yogurt
will not cause these symptoms because the lactic acid bacteria have
predigested the lactose to lactic acid for you, and they also produce their
own antibiotics to keep other things from growing.  I did a translation once
about a Polish orphanage that fed acidophilus milk to its kids to cure endemic
intestinal infections.  It is like hiring an army of friendly bacteria.
Lactic acid bacteria work hard for us in many ways.  Making cheese (Swiss
cheese also employs propionic acid bacteria).  Sauerkraut.  Other things
produced in a salty environment, which these bacteria tolerate, such as brined
olives, old-fashioned pickled cukes (not the vinegar type, which is done by
adding acetic acid).  I wonder if pickles and olives improve digestion.


#84 of 91 by orinoco on Fri Oct 15 18:18:51 1999:

(Is there lactose in cabbage for the bacteria to digest, or are they not
limited to digesting lactose?)


#85 of 91 by keesan on Sat Oct 16 01:39:46 1999:

I think they can digest many different sugars.  Lactobacillus acidophilus is
fed to people who are receiving oral antibiotics, and 'may result in the
temporary establishment of this organism in the gut and the comcomitant partial
suppression of other gut microbes' (which include drug-resistant
staphylococcus, yeasts, etc.)  These bacteria do best in acid environments.
They also produce lactose from glycogen, which is the animal equivalent of
plant starch, after breaking it down to simple sugars.  (Starch consists of
a lot of sugars attached in a chain).  From a book Medical Microbiology.
Maybe adding vinegar helps the bacteria to get started?  But lactic acid
tastes a lot different from vinegar.  


#86 of 91 by arabella on Sun Oct 17 08:02:13 1999:

And a lot better, in my opinion.  Give me old-fashioned barrel
pickles any day over nasty vinegar ones (I hate vinegar).
I have made barrel-type dill pickles and they smell just wonderful
when they are fermenting.



#87 of 91 by keesan on Mon Oct 18 03:11:47 1999:

I have never found a recipe for salt-brined (without vinegar) pickles in any
cookbook, but my grandfather made them by putting small cukes in boiled salty
water and refrigerating after three days for half-sour pickles.  How did you
make yours?  Sauerkraut took about a week to ferment and you have to keep the
stuff under water or it gets moldy.  Vinegar is faster and easier, if less
tasty.


#88 of 91 by arabella on Tue Oct 19 20:06:34 1999:

I have several recipes.  I will look for them tonight.



#89 of 91 by arabella on Sat Oct 30 10:57:03 1999:

Here's one recipe, for a small quantity of Kosher Dills:

2 dill flowers
2 garlic cloves, peeled and halved lengthwise
1 small, dried hot chili pepper
1 1/4 lbs (8-10) pickling cucumbers
6 long sprigs fresh dill
1 TBS coarse kosher salt

Put a dill flower, 2 half cloves of garlic,, and the dried chili
pepper on the bottom of a sterilized 1-quart Mason jar.  Add the
cucumbers upright, leaving a small hole in the center.  Fill the
hole with the sprigs of dill.  If using shorter cucumbers (3-4
inches long) add a few more on top to fill the jar to the shoulder.
Add the remaining dill flower and half cloves of garlic.  Top
with the salt.

Fill the jar with cold water to within 1/8 inch of the top.  Place
a sterilized seal firmly on top, and screw on the ring.  Shake the
jar a few times to dissolve the salt.  

Place the jar upside down on a counter, out of direct sunlight
and away from heat.  Leave the jar for 4 to 5 days, alternately
flipping it right side up one day and upside down the next,
until the liquid inside becomes murky.  Let sit right side up
for 2 more days, then refrigerate.

The pickles should be ready to eat as soon as chilled, with
a refrigerator shelf life of about 6 months.  However, if you
don't like hot pickles, remove the chili pepper after 1 month.

Yield = 1 quart

NOTE:  for half sours, refrigerate after the first 4 or 5 days;
do not let them sit for the additional 2 days.  

Additional NOTE:  If you can't get dill flowers (hard to find
out of season), I would use some dill seed instead.

---------------------------

I have made this recipe, and it works just fine.  I have also made
a salt-brined dill crock in a 3-gallon pickling crock, and that
was fabulous.  I cobbled together that recipe from a couple of
different sources (I have about 10 books on preserving and pickling
at this point -- I find it a fascinating topic).  I will try to 
find my notes about this...

The recipe above comes from a cool book called "Home Made in the
Kitchen," authors Bluestein and Morrissey.  They also have recipes
for sausages, dairy products, candy, bread, etc...


#90 of 91 by keesan on Sat Oct 30 23:06:37 1999:

My grandfather said to leave 3 days for half-sour, and he boiled the water
before using it to sterilize it.  Jewish dill pickles have no chilis.
Shaking it up seems like a good idea to keep the salt in solution and make
sure the pickles do not dry out on top.
It is no longer cuke season but I suppose I could pickle cauliflower.  I tried
sauerkraut but forgot to keep it under water and it turned moldy.


#91 of 91 by arabella on Sun Oct 31 07:50:40 1999:

I wouldn't sterilize the water.  You want the good bacteria to
show up and ferment your veggies.  Kind of like making a 
sourdough.

there are loads of different recipes for fermented pickles.  
Many of them will be successful.



There are no more items selected.

You have several choices: