50 new of 254 responses total.
Whoops, I was afraid I hadn't clarified things. We want to have kids, but the time isn't right at this point in time. I would have paid the matter little importance except that it sparked another discussion that I didn't want to get into, and felt was unwarranted. What I meant was I told Julie after John's post was made that this was a matter I wasn't comfortable discussing in public, since I know that it is very painful for us right now. Julie is still much more trusting than I and is still getting hurt. I have done the same, so what I meant to say was I told her once again to be careful what she shares, because, speaking of triggers and baggage aside from the conference, as Paul put it, we have plenty ourselves. Please excuse me if I speak rashly; things are very difficult now and will be for quite a while.
Does anybody have any idea how often it's snowed over here? Do you realize that, if it didn't melt during the course of the day, we'd probably have about a foot, maybe two. How 'bout you guys? I hear you are still waiting for the first penguin of spring to waddle through town :) (PS. Yes, I'm deliberately changing the subject. Somebody take me up on it.) (PPS. Thanks for standing up for me, Paul, Jon. Your efforts are greatly appreciated)
I love penguins.
An appropriate confession for the coming-out-stories item. :)
Yeah. Perfect. I like buttermilk.
What interesting uses could a kinky imagination find for buttermilk pancakes?
Mmmm. Sounds tasty. Lemme think about it. Jon seems to think it would be useful for rubbing. (need I say more?)
Uh, I forgot clothing. Hey, I think it could be done.
What's kinky about Buttermilk pancakes used as clothing?
Any food item used as clothing, or vice versa, is inherently kinky. Deal with it.
do penguins use buttermilk pancakes for anything?
Re: #214 - Somehow, i don't find clothing items used as food kinky. Am i erotically impaired, or do i just need better recipes for old socks? :) Re: #213 - Well, if your lover is sufficiently hungry for buttermilk pancakes and thinks you're an acceptable substitute for a plate....if you soak 'em good with syrup and butter first, he'll have to work at it to lick his "plate" clean....
I am curious if people treat you differentaly as a married couple than they did before you married. (But do not feel obligated to answer, of course). Or if you act differently, such as not feeling that you can spend time individually with other friends.
Can you second a question? If you can, I do. Otherwise, um... well, I'll get back to you :)
Oddly enough, there's more difference, socially, when a straight couple
is married. There are certain social conventions that married straight
couples tend to fall into; among other things, children, homesteading, and
associating with other couples. Gay couples seem much more flexible about
these things, and less likely to fall into social patterns.
Well, from what I've read, when gay or lesbian couples (I'm assuming John was using gay in a collective sense) adopt children or conceive by artificial insemination, the responsibilities aren't evenly divided as a whole. Often, the responsibilities are divided in much the same way as heterosexual couples do. I'm sure Paul has much more to say on this, but expectations of a married bisexual couple can be very vague. There's the question of polyamory. With Julie and I, it seemed like a lot of people assumed we were forsaking any sort of alternative lifestyle, considering our religion, and even our outward appearance. We were watching 'Celluloid in the Closet' once with our G.A.L.A. group when we were engaged (I apologize if I've mentioned this already). There was a scene from a movie where the guy took off his shirt and we both commented on his lovely torso. One of the girls in the group who had been raised Mormon yelped, "But you guys are supposed to be getting married!" Okay, so we don't do the moves, but we do make a bit of harmless window shopping (or does that lead to trouble?) We have a friend that wants to be more a part of our lives, but there's just too many problems there. Besides a conflict of faith (that our faith doesn't allow it, that she is not of the same faith that we are and may never accept that part of us), we're just having a rough time keeping things together, Julie and I, without having to add her in. Any counselor or mental health professional will tell you it's difficult to maintain a balance in a relationship with more than 2 people.
2 people -> 1 relationship you gotta keep healthy 3 people -> 3 relationships you gotta keep healthy 4 people -> 6 relationships you gotta keep healthy Stable larger groups where people have real relationships are 99.99% fantasy.
I noted that the one inaccuracy in Chasing Amy is that Banky assumed
that if Alyssa (the formerly "lesbian" title character) were to admire a woman
in a mall, that it'd drive Holden crazy. I've never seen anyone really be
bothered by that kind of behaviour. It tends to be an additional intimacy.
Your math is wrong, i. It's: 2 people = 1 relationship 3 people = 4 relationships (3 2-person relationships, 1 3-person relationship) 4 people = 11 relationships (6 2-person, 4 3-person, 1 4-person) (Yes, there *is* a dynamic difference between a 3-person relationship and the three component 2-person relationships.) I've heard of one fairly stable 5-person relationship (tat's 26 interrelationships!) But it's not just the number of relationships that's relevant, it's the consequences of a relationship failing. If a two-person relationship fails entirely, the parties walk away, but if two people in a three-person relationship become total enemies, that leaves the third person in the lurch (and in a position of choosing between them, or walking away from them both). OTOH, in my own experience, if a two-person relationship *falters* but doesn't fail entirely, there's a better-than-average likelihood that the parties will give up anyway, whereas if two people in a three-person relationship have a faltering relationship, the third person can act as a temporary bond until the problem passes (so long as that third person knows how to manage the tension and potential jealousies). Conclusions: -- Contrary to popular belief, relationships involving more than two people ARE more stable than two-person relationships (assuming the parties can overcome cultural baggage against poly relationships) -- when a poly relationship fails, it FAILS, bigtime, not pretty at all Stable poly relationships are not 99.99% fantasy. They're difficult because of cultural pressures against them, but if the parties involved are committed, they can be functional.
The n!/n factorial rule only applies to secure IP tunnels. :)
I'd say that behaviorology and psychology has a lot more to do with
the success and failure of *any* relationship than math. :)
I grew up in a 4-person relationship - two adults, two children. Staying together for the sake of the children is supposed to be fairly common, is this a whole lot different with 3 or more adults?
I've been becoming more and more public, because although I'm reserved, I have a rather 'I have nothing to hide' perspective these days. Besides, I'm tired of pussyfooting around it and I figure it's time to be more open. I think you'll remember the incident I shared about coming out to my Students With Exceptionalities class. It felt like talking to a wall. My teacher wasn't terribly responsive-- I was having a difficult time tying it to teaching, since it was a serendipity assignment. The class was even more apathetic, except for a very intellectual man whom everyone thought talked too much and unabashedly wore Native-American-style jewelry and had danced ballet for a while. (He said he didn't care what anyone thought anymore since he was older-- 40-- and he was beyond that). I found that here people think of declarations of sexuality in about the same category as declaring your favorite food. We mentioned in Agora about our experience of visiting the Common Language bookstore. We picked up two buttons that said, "Nobody *believes* I'm bisexual." We consider that amusing since we attend a university in a cow town. The Women's Resource center is really the only main front for GALA; our events rarely permeate public consciousness. It's almost like our meetings are underground. People whine about lack of sociality, lack of tolerance in the community, and worry obsessively about offending others. So aside from GALA, Julie and I are relatively invisible. Of course, bisexuals on the whole are invisible to the group, especially if they're dating opposite sex partners, or married. We make a point that we are an obvious difference. I know of another bisexual MOTOS couple-- I've seen them around at the film festivals, but then, the fact they're musicians is another thing. The glb community in the Music dept. is fairly low-profile since they're so busy. But I digress. I also picked up a leather pride flag magnet for our refrigerator, and a bi pride necklace-- another rare thing. (Another one of my beliefs is that bisexuals need to form a more distinctive identity-- I didn't identify with the Coalition too well for a while). Most people wear the rainbow freedom rings. Anyway, it was funny talking with the lady working at the register-- she asked if I knew what the flag meant. I said I did-- I just left my leathers at home. She explained a lot of customers didn't, and they'd come back upset once they learned what it really was :) She added a lot of people didn't know what the one with the bear was either-- they thought it was neat or cute or something. Technically being a bear myself-- big and hairy, I said I understood. I said I figured teddy bears in leather got a lot of people (heh heh). (Actually, a friend of mine who claims to have been a butch on the leather scene years ago says I'm just a cubbie. I still find it weird, hearing this from an effeminate-sounding obese older man, but I guess things can radically change.) I have yet to be in some big event, but I do find myself surprised at freely admitting my sexuality in some of my classes. I took Children's Literature last quarter, and when we talked about censorship, I mentioned the fact that wonderful kids' books on families with homosexual parents and relatives are banned and *not* allowed in the classroom. Teachers and librarians to children of such families have to go to great lengths to get these books to them. But the transition has been interesting.
It was weird for me to wear my rainbow necklace in public for the first week, but I got used to it and got over the "everyone is looking at it" paranoia. I like seeing people wear stuff like that because it indicates that they are open and comfortable with who they are. I never had a problem wearing my pentacle pin or any other "pagan" jewelry, so I figured this should be the same way. Just go with it and fuck everyone else and what they think. <g>
ah, but my point was the rainbow necklace is beginning to become a little more common-- almost fashionable. There is a leather pride variation as well as a bi one, but you rarely see them.
I'm seeing more purple triangles, too. It used to be I only saw pink.
The bi necklace has a pink, a lavender, and a blue triangle. Those who are familiar with these intersecting triangles in the bi pride symbol know the significance-- blue for boys, pink for girls, and lavender where the twain meet. All three colors have been in gay pride symbols, too, if I remember right. resp:229 Pink triangles have been the standard for many, many years for the gay pride movement-- for both men and women. If I remember what a friend said, lavender had just emerged as a neutral color-- or something like that.
The symbols change between subcultures and regions too, to add to the
confusion - a collar in the gay leather scene doesn't necessarily mean the
same thing as a collar in the S&M leather scene, nor in Chicago the same as
in San Francisco. The meanings are similar - taken - but the specifics vary.
ah.
Sorry, I'm trying to get up the courage to express what's happened to me. No changes in whether or not I've tried to have a SS relationship. Jon and I were talking about our personal difficulties and how hard it is to stick with each other only when he wants to "be fulfilled as a bisexual" and wants me to be able to understand where he's coming from. He keeps telling me that he wouldn't mind. I guess the problem has been, no matter how much I felt bisexual, I minded. Funny how that works out, huh? Anyway, I'd been trying to reconcile myself to a life of, "I'm happy with my husband, but I like to look at the girls" type of thing. Which gets frustrating because Jon doesn't want to do that. He wants to seek out lovers as a husband and wife team. Now---The way I was brought up, I was led to believe that this was not allowed within a righteous marriage (when kids come that's a different story). That the man and his wife clove to eachother and none else. It's hard to explain. I never expected not to feel bisexual. I never expected to be "cured". What I thought was, "I'll get married and then, if I just look, Jon will not be unhappy because my appreciation of beauty will be a testament to my taste by marrying him." I suppose this is a mistake. Jon told me, I think it was Thursday night, that he felt that it was all right for us to take SS lovers so long as we had the each other's permission. That we went into it as a team. It was then that I more or less agreed with him. At that point was when I felt freed. Iknew then that I really *wanted* to have a SS experience. It was that realization that freed me. Now, I don't know if I'll ever find a woman that I'd feel comfortable and safe with and I have absolutely no clue as to how to go about looking, but, I think that (laugh if you want) if it's meant to happen an opportunity will arise. Until then these are the criteria I'm looking for. *The person should have been recently tested for AIDS. That's not something I want and not what I want to pass around. *The person should be aware of the strength of the relationship between Jon and I. IOW if they don't feel comfortable having Jon watch or participate while I have my experience, then they are best off with someone else. *The person should understand my connection with my religion. I only add this because of difficulties expressed by Jonathan from his past. Lastly * The person should be someone I feel comfortable and safe with. I'm sure you understand that. That said, I thank you for listening. Any other suggestions?
I'm sure you don't need to be told this, but I feel compelled to say it anyway: Communicate often. Communicate honestly. The poly road can be a dangerous and painful one. It can also be an emotionally rewarding one, but it 's not always worth the risk. As for other suggestions: I myself avoid non-bisexuals, and strongly prefer other pagans. I've had relationship with monosexuals and monogamists, and those have always broken down because they couldn't get along with Valerie. The relationships I've had with bisexual polys, otoh, break down for the more traditional reasons of incompatibility. Having a relationship break down because of your SO tends to put a strain on the relationship between you and your SO... they feel gulty for getting in the way of your happiness, and you resent having to choose. It's much easier to be dumped because of your own problems then because of someone else.s. =} At least, that's been my experience. Your experience may vary.TM
Better make that "It's easier to be dumped because of your own problems than because of someone else's existence".
But see, that's wrong. It wasn't because of their existence, it was because of incompatibilities. Eh. But y'all knew what I meant anyhow. =}
Oh, I get it. Wrong "someone else". <wanders off looking sheepish>
It's okay, Danny. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want to protect myself and the sanctity of my relationship with Jon. I also want the other woman to feel comfortable and safe with me. It's not worth trying if neither of us feels good about it. Also, I'm a bit iffy about stepping all the way out of the closet, yet. People keep telling me to take the challenge. Step into the unknown. I'm just a person who like things to be stable. I operate well under pressure but that doesn't mean I have to like it. resp:235 Thanks, Paul. I'll try to be careful. As I said, I'd rather not hurt anyone. As for choosing between my husband and any other person, I'd choose Jon every single time. Jon is my partner, my best friend, my lover, my soulmate, my teacher, my student. He and I compliment eachother. Though I can't claim that things have always been all sweetness and light, still I know he loves me and that he wants me to be happy. No other person could hope to compete. Not even another woman. It's hard to describe.
A lot of people seem to feel that if you're gay, or bisexual, then your
life should reflect their political agenda.
I recall when Ani DiFranco, who's currently in a hetereosexual
monogamous (at least I'm assuming so) relationship but is openly bisexual,
fell under flack from several women-with-a-y groups for writing an entire
album about a heterosexual relationship!
Jeez. I'm a bisexual, but I have no political agendas. Unless you call attempting to get people to pull their heads out of their asses political.
Re#240: Heck, she got enough flack for openly associating with a straight man, much less writing about it. (It would be interesting to be dating someone as confessional as Ani DiFranco on a serious basis. The idea of being one of the men in one of her Angry Songs is one of the scarier prospects I could think of...)
Well, she married the guy that most of Dilate was written about
(including Shameless, which would seem to be about a gay relationship but
according to Ani, was only using the term "another man's wife"
metaphorically), even though he's still referred to as Goat Boy.
Well, all I can say is that if there IS a gay agenda, I wish to God somebody would inform me...I guess I wasn't there when the Gay Council passed out all the copies.
You can borrow my checklist. I get my toaster oven with two more recruits.
damn sarah yer WAY ahead of me. interesting though the "new recruits" at the saddle are re-upping the homo-percentage find it oddly amusing
See, now if you were gay instead of bi, Sarah, you'd get a toaster with
every recruit.
I know what you're saying in #244, Dale, about the so-called "gay
agenda" - but being fair, there is really a bit of pressure according to my
Lesbian friends from their circle of Lesbian friends to fall into line with
that group's sexual politics. Occasionally it gets bad enough that there's
prejudice not to have male children!
A toaster? I'm still working on getting the commemorative t-shirt! Actually, I've been pretty fortunate to find a group of friends who are pretty down-to-earth and who are as put-off as I am about the whole idea of "sexual politics". Sort of a "live and let live" philosophy of human sexuality. Not that we don't have our activistic tendencies...we're still planning on getting a group together to go bomb the southern baptist convention...but pretty much, we kinda feel like, "hey, if you don't try to tell us we're going to hell for loving 'the wrong people', we'll get along just fine."
I've nevr understood the radical l lesbian aganda. Don't these people realize that although they reject the male of the species, he is still needed to produce the sperm to produce more babies, and who couldn't love a little baby even if his only "mistake" in life was to be born with a penis? Me, I love everyone. Doesn't matter your politics, or what you have between your legs. If you are a decent human being, and you breathe air, chances are I'm gonna like you. I never knew there was a gay, bisexual, lesbian agenda except to get SS marraiges recognized by the states, and equal rights for life partners. Maybe there is more than meets the eye. I'd like the cappuncino maker and matching mugs ;)
hell if i was back in esky I'd have the entire dinnerware set already ;)
hopefully, things will turn out for the best. it's still hard going trying to convince hets that we experience the same kinds of things they do, and that they have counterparts for all the stereotypes they make about us.
yes why not !
>Coming out.......half way > >Well I knew i was bi for sure not long after id got to uni. I often used to >fantasise about the guys at school who i thought were hot but when i got to >uni i found myself doing it a lot more. Also when i started uni I became mates >with someone who was open minded and i knew i could talk to about my sexual >orientation if i wanted to. As it happens i didnt tell hiim first. I first >told one of my female friends when i was neither drunk nor sober, im not sure >how i told her, i just came out with it. > >Then i met some guy who was on the same course as me, sometimes when we were >drunk i used to look at him and smile in a way that was subtley flirtatious >and hopefully not compromise my being in-the-closet if he wasnt into guys. He used look back in a same and quite positive manner. He ended up goin out with one of my female friends and was with her for maybe a month and a half. After splitting with her, a couple of weeks later i ended up kissing him briefly in a club one night, not a gay club, just a club i was in with my other mates wen they weren't around at that moment. I also kissed him at the bar when my mates were around and we jst acted like it was one of them dare type things u do wen ur drunk. My mates nvr thought any more of it, they jst laughed it off. Really me and him knew it was more that just a joke and left early, and after kissing quite passionately in an alley way went back to his, i was feeling nervous all the way there. He told me i could back out at any time and i did, mainly because i didnt feel i could sleep with him when he was the ex of one of my friends (sleeping with your mate's ex jst isnt something u do). I sat on the edge of my bed for 5 minutes jst thinking about what had happened and then decided to jst go for it; i went back to his (which wasnt far away) and slept with him. The next day i didnt regret it but told him i think we should stay friends and not let it happen again, but it did happen again and although i enjoyed it i felt guilty for a long time after. Ovr time i ended up telling a couple more female friends that i was bi and also the guy i was sharing a uni halls flat with, they wer all cool about it. The person who i first told about my being bi found out about this guy id slept with being gay and i told her about what had happened between me and him. Then one night in a club he decided he should tel his ex about him being gay, accidentaly she oveheard him talking to my mate about it and wasnt best pleased that she knew before her.I think it was then he who told his ex about sleeping with me and for that night i think she was close to wanting to kill me. My friend told me that as a result of her finding out 2 other people found out aswel, and then they told a third. 2 of those guys never actualy mentioned it to me and so im guessing theyr ok about it. The third did mention it to me cos he thought i should know that he knows and he told me that it was all "cool and i was too good a friend to fuck off" as a result of what happened. Well 2 days after that guys ex found out about me and him she gave me a hug and told me she wasnt mad at me. I was quite surprised,having spent a day chain smoking and worrying about how i was evr going to look her in the face again. I still feel guilty sometimes but im glad she knows about what happened cos i was close to telling her myself cos i couldnt handle the guilt.
the last bit didnt post for sume reason. Basically about half of my mates know now that im bi, but i havnt gotten around to telling any of my family, im not sure how to :S
You have several choices: