This item is for capturing opinions and ideas about how Grex can move forward, what Grex can do to encourage more people to use the system, and what we want Grex to provide in terms of services or applications.40 responses total.
So, we are another year down the road and another year finished where we did little work on a newer Grex server. Mainly this is because of life and work events for staff who need time to work through them. This has meant less time for Grex. Partly it's because we have a small staff group and anything the impacts a couple people's work slows down progress, often for a long time. So, one solution would be to recruit more staff. This has been problematic for several reasons, not the least of which is trust. But, it would be good to have some new people helping on Grex. They need to understand the history of Grex and that it is a commandline server. That's not hard to figure out, but still some want to modernize Grex a little bit too much for the resources we have available. We have limits one user accounts for resource as well as security reasons, for example. We run a BSD operating system, not Linux, so that causes some people problems when they assume we have all the libraries and applications that Linux has. Grex has no apt-get command, for example, yet users continually try to sudo apt-get to install some software they want rather than asking staff. If staff see users want to install something, and it won't cause system issues, we often will, if we have the time. Also, we haven't updated our server OS for several years now and are several versions out of date. The reason for this is we want to move to FreeBSD at some point and don't want to go through all the changes that updating the OpenBSD version would cause, then go through it all again for FreeBSD soon after. However, after spending several years without making progress on the FreeBSD server, hindsight would tell us we might have gotten our money's worth out of an update to the OpenBSD version (including fixing an outstanding system resource bug that causes the system to crash periodically). Discussions of the Board regarding the issue of the new server show that there are technical issues with FreeBSD relative to OpenBSD that need to be worked through. For example, we may no longer be able to offer web-based BBS due to different mechanisms of authentication in FreeBSD and the web server. We'd like to use nginx instead of apache for the web server. It is possible that time will allow someone else to fix these issues. In that case, we could use that solution. Currently, we have not found an easy solution. Giving up web-based BBS might not be an issue given the few people who read the BBS, but it still seems like a huge step backwards. We'd also need to give up the RT help desk. One advantage of FreeBSD is it has a much better ports system than OpenBSD (and no, OpenBSD does not guarantee the security of their ports like they supposedly do the security of their OS). FreeBSD will refuse to install ports/packages with security issues (although you can override the refusal). You can get a report of security issues in ports and can see which applications you have installed which have issues. Thus, we would not lose any security by installing FreeBSD ports, assuming we paid attention to potential issues. More ports means we have a better chance of installing applications our users want to use. Currently, if an application is not in our old OpenBSD ports setup, we are left to manually install it, which sometimes is a time sink for staff. An example of this is the "go" programming language. emacs was recently updated from scratch (no port) to the latest version, but it fortunately built with little issue.
I find myself with a little time, for the first time in years. So where should I begin? I have never studied authentication models, but that seems to be where effort is needed. Any suggestions for background reading?
Hashes?
I know cross redid the grex password hash a few years ago. Is that what you mean?
I didn't redo it; I just removed the custom one Marcus had designed and replaced it with the stock hash used by OpenBSD.
So what's needed with PAM?
re #5 Yes
You mean on FreeBSD? The issue is that FreeBSD stores encrypted passwords in a file that's owned by root and only readable by root. Since PAM is a shared library that's linked into every program that wants to use it for authentication, PAM modules are executed with the permissions of the program that's using them. For the web server, we want this to NOT be root. So the question becomes, how does the web server authenticate users for things like backtalk and RT? Most large-scale systems don't use the traditional password database, deferring instead to some kind of network directory service that contains authentication data (e.g. LDAP). On OpenBSD, this isn't an issue since OpenBSD's 'auth' library invokes a setuid program to check passwords (and talks to it over a pipe or socket; I forget which).
We move forward by going backward. I'll create "The fat item" and we'll all gather 'round the fire and tell tall tales about inclusiveness and prosperity.
I have no idea if my comments and ideas are welcome here, most of what is being said appears to be internal discussion. Still, this is a semi-public board, so I'll throw in what I can. First of all, it's difficult to tell what Grex has to offer to the average user. A shell account, sure, but I have to assume that many *nix users that might want to participate have their own shell accounts on their own systems. I for one have several, in various places, and don't necessarily need another. I came here for the bbs, and to connect with other potentially like-minded *nix users. My second observation is that Grex feels very Michigan-ish. That's not a horrible thing in and of itself, but if you're aiming for a user base that is larger than what MI has to offer, I would suggest that you diversify your discussions. Which brings me to... Number 3: the bbs. The main reason I came here. I'm a vetran, used to program and run BBSes back in the POTS days. I've been out of it for years, but have recently re-connected with this type of crowd. It is interesting that they live on, and beautiful in a way. I was excited and willing, but I have to say, what you have going here is a beast. The crowd that would enjoy agora is a small one indeed, and some other solution might receive far more participation. I hope I'm not completely stomping on someone's baby by saying so, but Agora is more of a pain in the neck than it is worth the content. So to sum up, if you truly want feedback, and if you truly want a larger user base, I'd suggest testing the waters with a different bbs, and making your offerings (especially multi-user-centric offerings, and perhaps inclusive online social offerings) more clear. Thanks for listening, and I look forward to being set on the right track if I'm off topic or off course in this post!
#10 Good post. What might be some examples of alternate BBSs that are better than " Backtalk version 1.3.30"?
I'm not sure "better" is the right goal, but more friendly perhaps, keeping in mind that not every user in the potential target market will have a lot of experiences with text-based social interactions. The entire purpose of a BBS is to create interaction; a system is worthless if it doesn't have users filling it with content, and interacting. Since Grex is an OpenBSD system, I have no idea what systems would even be available. Perhaps a custom-built one? I have no BSD experience, only Linux sadly, so I can't recommend something, but I do stand by my previous post. Make the offerings more understandable, and improve the social (bbs) aspects. I'll throw this out, though I don't necessarily recommend it. It's written in PHP, which I don't see here on grex. I'd be willing to re-write it in perl as a custom version for grex if anyone was interested. It's a clone-of-sorts of the bboard system that is found on SDF (which is quite active/popular even with relatively novice users): https://sourceforge.net/projects/slightbbs/ It runs through inetd, but can be accessed at the command line just as easily (at least on my system.) Again, I don't necessarily recommend it, but it is an option. I'd love to know if there were better options available on the open market.
you can telnet to jozhaus.com port 2323 to try it out if you're curious.
didn't work for me
Neonicotinoid, I'm not sure why, I just tested it from two different hosts (both west coast) and it's working fine. Of course, you can't telnet out from Grex itself, at least I can't.
php 5.2 and 5.3 are installed on Grex. See /usr/local/bin. The main roadblock to getting anything going like this is staff time and willingness to implement/install. What we have for a bbs now is one that was written by Grex staff a long time ago now. It is Perl-based which makes it relatively portable. It might be possible to add a new look or new functionality to it, but someone would need to spend the time to figure out how it all works. I think a new look and new functionality would be good and might attract more users to grex. However, you'll find there will be complaints about things like users being able to edit a response, moderation of responses, and such, that they are not used to or have philosophical objections to. At some point we just need to try something new. We could run two bbses in parallel, for example. Then people who don't want to try new things can not respond to the new system as well as the old system. phpBB I think was another php-based system that has been discussed in the past. In the OpenBSD ports files on Grex there is information on fluxBB. There are a number of them available for Unix-based systems in general. Installation hassle, security and staff maintenance time while in operation would be considerations for any such system. We are perennially short of staff time to do things. Keep making suggestions! Maybe something will spark some interest in a staff member to install a new bbs. Or maybe someone will step up and help staff with this.
I definitely understand your point about staff... it's hard to want to implement a new system and then have no one to maintain/run it. I also agree that trying something new in parallel with the existing system is the way to go; there is nothing to lose, and everything to gain. phpBB and fluxBB, as far as I understand, aren't console-ready in the way that they'd need to be. I don't personally see much value in a web-accessible BBS, it defeats the purpose of joining a unix community, and is too exposed to the general public. That's of course my viewpoint on the matter only. I'd prefer something that is unique, and requires something of the users. A web-based system would be white noise in today's internet communitites. Maybe Grex wants to aim toward a different type of user though, and I'd understand that. I again offer my services and participation to try something new. I'm glad to see we have PHP here, I could implement slightBBS for console and/or telnet access, and spin it into a Grex-unique system.
I say go for it. If you can do it in your account, more's the better; if it grows, we can make it system-wide. It seems like you're talking about something like Mystic or Synchronet (or MBSE or EleBBS or something) as a BBS? That may be interesting, but my sense is that most of those BBS's just exist to pass around the same echonet traffic that all the others do (e.g., FidoNet etc). Personally, I'm not so interested in the BBSing aspects of Grex anymore. I'd rather see us become a playground for programmers and makers of varous stripes. Consider, for example, the maker communities that have sprung up around designing retro single board computers using Z80's and 68k's. Those folks are using web BBSes for most of their collaboration. Why not a real Unix system like Grex? But hey! If you've got an idea, time and motivation, run with it and make it your own!
Interesting thoughts. I can't stand the echonet BBSes, but perhaps that's something to think about. I prefer visiting individual ones for local traffic. But again, that's just me personally :) The idea of having a place for builders to work together is interesting, though I imagine web-based would be best for them, unless they're feeling like console-only. Maybe they would. In any case, I'm going to take your advice, and attempt to just start something and see what happens. I just paid the $18 for a yearly membership. Where should I go for help with questions? Specifically, I would like to know if there is a place for members to place shared executable scripts, and where a good place for shared text-files would be... for a start/testing. Thanks!
I'm not sure that I understand your comments on web-based BBS. I note that this one is available both on the command line and on the web; take a look at http://www.cyberspace.org and follow the link for agora. As for the content, well, it's what people are writing.
resp:19 I think the echos drive some of the traffic. My sense is that if a BBS isn't a member of 10 different FTN networks and at least two ANSI/ASCII art scenes, plus have 20 doors that no one ever plays, no one will "call." And then there are the file areas...I really don't see the relevance in this day and age, but I guess some people like to fire up the ol' zmodem programs every now and again. The only Grex-style "BBS" that's still at all active is the well, and I think that's because it managed to capture a lot of silicon valley thought leaders when the whole web thing was happening, and they hung around for the network effects. I don't know that there's a specific place for executables and text files; start by prototyping a subdirectory of your home dir and if it starts taking shape and looks promising, we can create a subdirectory under /cyberspace. For help, post here or email grex-staff@googlegroups.com.
It might be time to revive the perennial discussion on how to spice things up at grex. If you read this thread, you might enjoy an update on the bbs question: cross let me put gboard into action, and it got some use. It's still live now, and still gets a tiny amount of use (less than fronttalk/backtalk/bbs if that tells you anything.) So, a different bbs maybe didn't help much. In the same time period, several of us users have tried to be present in party, and contributing *something* to the conversation. We learned how to extend and use functionality in the old beast, and had some kicks. Party has been at least mildly active over the past year, I'd say. At times there is an actual conversation. Mostly, people pop in and out. I'd say, our efforts have helped. It's nice to see recent conversation in there. Another thing that grex did in this same time period (approximately) was to add a gopher server. I don't know how many people on here are watching gopher, but it is a hotbed of activity in pubnix space right now. People are getting outside of their normal haunts and exploring. They're signing up for new systems. They're doing interesting things. They're producing content, and participating. One example is over at circumlunar.space, a public access gopher server with limited resournces. Shell accounts and sftp accounts were available, and the 32 slots open quickly filled up. People have been producing content, writing projects together, coming up with ideas, and even writing and using their own 'party' equivalent called schat. Now, more users are connecting with circumlunar.space to created a multi-server, related experience for users. The domain owner is helping subdomains develop and grow. It's an interesting time. Grex, with gopher, dived in with one toe. That is OK, as it reflects a different mindset that is equally valuable: a careful, cautious, and hesitant administration. I'm not sure you could have anything else from a system that has been around so long. I could be wrong, I'm making this stuff up as I go (something, I gather, that isn't done as much here at grex.) The point is: grex isn't going to be like the other systems out there. Nothing they're doing is going to work here. There has to be some other way forward... So, hopefully some long-time grex folks will chime in on this thread again, with some old, solid ideas. Perhaps grex needs to focus on stability and performance. Perhaps fundraising is needed. Maybe the offering needs to drop the presense of being a wide-open party for the dial-in masses, and develop into a niche. It might be time for the bbs to die. It might be time for party to die. It might not be, but I think an open discussion is the only way forward, and the only way to find out.
It is interesting and encouraging to see the increased activity on other punbixes, and to see so many new pubnixes popping up. And I agree with tfurrows that Grex has an opportunity to think about its niche in this new time and internet environment. The other pubnixes seem focused on learning command line Linux, supporting non-commercial online communities, sharing ideas through gopher, and enjoying realtime chat through irc. Maybe Grex just needs a "membership drive", getting the word out to this growing and enthusiastic group of users. Grex has history, good core social utilities, and a set of driving principles that are easy to get behind. A little spark of new users might build enough critical mass that an active and self-sustaining community can get moving. But echoing tfurrows, it is important to hear what the Grex veterans and caretakers want to see.
I'm about to get on an airplane and fly halfway around the world, so this will be brief. I've long felt that the Grex BBS community was holding Grex back, and whether I was right or not, that's kind of irrelevant now as that community has mostly disappeared. If Grex is to survive, it clearly has to change. What should it evolve into? I doubt that's for me, or any of the other "long-term Grex" folks to decide. It's there; it's open; we give out accounts, we can do kind of whatever. Take it and make it what you want. The only real wrench I'll throw into those works is gopher: it's an antiquated protocol, little supported, and really should be allowed to die a dignified death. My challenge to folks who want to us it is: Come up with something better. I don't see why a small static site generator built on, say, markdown couldn't be made that would generate content served via HTTP and interpreted by a simple command-line client. I understand the desire to get away from the heavy-weight technology of the commercial web, but don't throw out the baby with the bathwater: the protocol is there, it works, everything in the world understands it, and that's really all you need. Put another way, the folks who are advocating for Gopher (to me) seem to be doing so because they like the presentation of gopher content and its simplicity, but that is independent of the underlying protocol. Take that model and make it work with HTTP/2.0 and you're really onto something.
cross, thanks for the thoughts. On the evolution of grex, is it just a natural evolution forcibly, or can it be engineered somehow? Does anyone want it to be? On gopher, I'm going to try to approach the people that are using it to see what they think. They'll be biased, certainly. I realize you have a great deal of acumen, experience, and education in this area, so I could take what you say at face-value, but I would really like to explore the validity of it. I have no argument about the validity, I just want to explore what it means and what its bounds are. Clearly, everyone could serve up plain text (and even file listings) with http (and the right server.) Could they have a de facto limit / barrier-to-entry with http as they do with gopher? There are just a few questions I'd like to explore there too.
I would like Grex to flourish, and I would like to see more public access computing communities flourish as a more interesting and edifying alternative to popular social media. However, we have to admit 1) we are a niche that appeals to only a small minority of Internet users, and 2) there is no certain formula do this, do that, then flourish. Also, I think most of you are like me in that even though we would like to help Grex grow, the fact is that Grex only occupies a small portion of our attention, which it shares with a variety of other Internet and computing interests, other hobbies, studies, work, family and the rest of life. So while I am not giving up hope for Grex, I don't see a specific solution to the problems that have been brought up. I recommend that we who care about Grex should try to drop in to party as regularly as possible, keep trying new stuff, keep talking about it, and God willing something may catch fire again.
In both caddy shack and grex, someone hates gopher multiserver schat and gboard sound like good ideas
I think the most exciting thing i have heard on Grex, was from Cross - talking about building a 'secure' modern text based system. As a layman / half a Geek,so to speak - i can still see the attraction in old protocols and technology, but a museum is not the creative, usefull, social community that Grex seems about. The internet as a meritocracy is all about doing, and freely sharing; at least the kind of internet that communities like this are about. So so apart from making virtual friends, what do we do - or share?
conferences
I'll reply again soon. Suffice it to say I've returned to the states, with only a mild case of Delhi belly that just don't seem to wanna go away.... "Oh hi, Delhi Belly; what are YOU doing in Bombay?"
Resp:#29 Well put tod. Yes! Conferences, UNIX and terminal socializing. We build community, an international community of like minded people. The conferences reflect the people who manage them, and the expertise and interest of the userbase. UNIX is about programmers, community building and learning from our peers -- it seems to me (?). Something cross said the other day made me think. He said "at least do security pretty well here". It seems to highlight the difference between Grex and some of the newer Pubnixs; Grex was built to cater for a very large audience, and the system has seen alot of people trying to break it, aswell as contribute. Their must be alot of lessons to be learnt from this and their must be alot of people running even their own unixlike o/s at home who could learn alot, and would be interested in being part of a community that they could not only learn about, then from, and then be part of.
If you want to attract new users, why not make a mention of Grex at a place online where there may be interested parties? Perhaps a subreddit?
Mention it wherever Bernie Sanders advertises
#34 Pass flyers at the Antifa meeting @ the Cottage Inn Pizza dumpster in A2.
We ran out of flyers. I asked my mom to pick up more at Staples.
#36 Thank her for assisting the resistance!
"memories of the University of Michigan are NOT pleasant ... the fact that I not only passed my courses (except one physics course) but got quite a few As, shows how wretchedly low the standards were at Michigan." -T.J.Kaczynski
When the real owners of this country are threatened, they begin to scrub history in real time. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D_DHnaRXkAAfJjK.jpg If you disagree with the agenda, you will be deplatformed.
re #39 Not to mention FB and Cambridge Analytica's original customers of political data from FB personal profiles.
You have several choices: