Grex Do-it-yourself Conference

Item 43: the near future of networked homes?

Entered by jep on Thu Jan 19 04:48:59 2006:

63 new of 290 responses total.


#228 of 290 by mcnally on Fri Mar 10 07:04:30 2006:

 re #227:  there's nothing particularly awful about ndiswrapper 
 and it's very, very useful in cases where the manufacturer (I'm
 looking at *YOU*, Broadcom..) won't release details necessary
 to implement a native driver.

 The Dell laptop I use for work has a built-in broadcom wireless
 chip that isn't supported by Linux except through ndiswrapper.
 However with the hardware emulation mode that ndiswrapper provides
 it works very well (better, seemingly, than it does in Windows,
 as odd as that may be..)


#229 of 290 by twenex on Fri Mar 10 15:35:02 2006:

Re: #226. Sorry, I've no idea how much memory ndiswrapper takes up, as I'm
not using it at the moment. But my comments on the subject were addressed to
ball.

Re: #227. More hideous than running UN*X under VMware? More hideous than
having no net access or not running UN*X at all?

Re: 228, Broadcom: Let's look together.

re: 228, ndiswrapper: Hah. Hahah. Hahahah. Oh, I larfed.


#230 of 290 by keesan on Fri Mar 10 16:02:49 2006:

Somebody with ndiswrapper please let us know its memory usage before I bother
with it.  DSL (50MB of Debian on live CD) may support it if you download an
extra package of applications.  Ubuntu Live might support it too, but we don't
have 128MB of RAM on our laptops to run that huge GUI in (it won't run at all
with less, not sure if DSL will accept 32MB).  I will try the card once in
Win98 at the public library.

My 2.4.31 kernel won't work at all with USB - crashes with uhci.  I modelled
it on something that works and just added usb-uhci (as module) and removed
a bunch of things that did not look essential (various USB scanners, cameras,
serial adaptors, ISDN modems).  My kernel config is at
http://keesan.freeshell.org/bl/2.4.31/configsy.431 - all help appreciated.
And when I tried using this setup to compile rtl8180 it would not compile
anyway and INSTALL says I need to hack Makefile for 2.4, and 2.6 is easier.
2.6 takes too much RAM and is ridiculous for a 100MHz laptop computer.


#231 of 290 by ball on Fri Mar 10 17:57:11 2006:

Re #229: More hideous than finding natively supported hard-
  ware, although in some cases (such as hardware built into
  laptops) I can see that's not always practical.


#232 of 290 by cross on Fri Mar 10 21:29:04 2006:

This response has been erased.



#233 of 290 by nharmon on Fri Mar 10 22:21:24 2006:

> And Running Unix sucks.

As opposed to what? Windows? 


#234 of 290 by cross on Fri Mar 10 22:35:26 2006:

This response has been erased.



#235 of 290 by ball on Sat Mar 11 05:10:19 2006:

I suspect Plan 9 has more scant hardware support even than
NetBSD ;-)


#236 of 290 by cross on Sat Mar 11 14:39:36 2006:

This response has been erased.



#237 of 290 by ball on Sat Mar 11 16:44:09 2006:

Out of interest though, what makes Plan 9 good?


#238 of 290 by twenex on Sat Mar 11 22:04:04 2006:

Having more than one machine spare!

And sorry, but they got the Plan 9 windowing system VERY wrong, unless they
now believe in dictating policy as well as implementation. In which case, both
the windowing system and they are wrong.


#239 of 290 by ball on Sat Mar 11 23:27:33 2006:

Re #238: ?


#240 of 290 by naftee on Sun Mar 12 03:00:10 2006:

 ?[3~[3~


#241 of 290 by cross on Sun Mar 12 14:32:43 2006:

This response has been erased.



#242 of 290 by nharmon on Sun Mar 12 15:41:07 2006:

> they get it in their heads that the way Linus et al do it is the One 
> True Way

This is probably because Linux is the first unix-like operating system
these people have ever used. It was pretty much that way with me.


#243 of 290 by remmers on Sun Mar 12 17:58:03 2006:

Hey, at least Linux and X11 are actually used by lots of real people to
get useful stuff done.  Plan 9 seems to be mainly a platform for
generating superior attitudes and academic papers on operating system
design.


#244 of 290 by ball on Sun Mar 12 18:34:05 2006:

Re #241: I'm not so sure about Linux, but I like X.  I like
  the ability to run a client program on whatever machine
  happens to be most appropriate and have its output display
  to (and keyboard/pointing device input from) whatever
  machine happens to be in front of me. I also like the fact
  X makes no attempt to dictate my choice of window manager.
  I imagine X predates Linux and it's developed by different
  people.


#245 of 290 by cross on Sun Mar 12 19:37:52 2006:

This response has been erased.



#246 of 290 by ball on Sun Mar 12 23:16:34 2006:

X works for me.  It's nice that it's cross-platform too.  Is
Plan 9's windowing system confined just to Plan 9?


#247 of 290 by cross on Sun Mar 12 23:46:41 2006:

This response has been erased.



#248 of 290 by twenex on Mon Mar 13 01:54:48 2006:

I think there's also an X11 wm that's meant to look like rio.

You're right, Dan. X11 DOES suck. And so does UNIX, whatever flavour. The
trouble is, they're SO much better than That Other System in SO many ways,
and Plan 9 is SO little known, that its suckiness is (almost) irrelevant. Now,
if I'm wrong about the window manager thing, then fine. But don't assume I'm
just some ignorant Linux fanboy. I also use (and happen to prefer) FreeBSD
on one machine. I can also see lots of areas where linux went wrong, like
kernel module support. But I suspect that unless you're a kernel programmer
(which I'm not), and/or you have a few machines kicking around that you can
power constantly just to have a distributed OS (which I don't), then Plan 9
really wouldn't look much more attractive to you than Linux/BSD. (As an aside,
imho Plan 9 still doesn't do device management correctly: /dev/dev/ and
/dev/devctrl is certainly an improvement over /dev/dev/ and ioctrl, but the
OS should include facilities for decoding whether what's written to /dev/dev
is a command or data, instead.

As for the bad old days; point taken. But I know that lots of people prefer,
and always have preferred, developing for UNIX rather than Windows, and
developing for Mac OS Classic (especially early versions) sounds like a
nightmare. Let's face it, aside from some shining lights (now sadly mostly
dimmed), programming graphical applications on just about ANY platform in the
eighties must have been the GUI equivalent of batch-mode-only OSES. Did I
mention it sounds painful?


#249 of 290 by cross on Mon Mar 13 03:11:55 2006:

This response has been erased.



#250 of 290 by nharmon on Mon Mar 13 03:46:48 2006:

Is Plan 9 free software?


#251 of 290 by twenex on Mon Mar 13 12:41:29 2006:

Re: 249. OK, maybe that ouldn't work!

Re: #250. What's your definition of "Free software"?


#252 of 290 by cross on Mon Mar 13 14:46:05 2006:

This response has been erased.



#253 of 290 by twenex on Mon Mar 13 14:49:23 2006:

Re: #252. "Approved by the OSI" does not mean that it is approved by Richard
Stallman and the GNU/Free Software Foundation people. The OSI-approved
software stack *includes* (all?) software approved by the FSF, but the reverse
is not necessarily the case.


#254 of 290 by cross on Mon Mar 13 14:58:49 2006:

This response has been erased.



#255 of 290 by twenex on Mon Mar 13 15:02:41 2006:

And I quote:

"...There was a shakey start with Stallman and the OSI people..."


#256 of 290 by fudge on Mon Mar 13 15:23:48 2006:

r#253: thankfully RMS hasn't got the right of veto for software worldwide.


#257 of 290 by ball on Mon Mar 13 15:25:17 2006:

I think I should network my next home with Ethernet
(probably a combination of 10baseT, 100baseTX and perhaps
1000baseT over cat-5e and RS-485 (over Cat-3?)


#258 of 290 by ball on Mon Mar 13 15:27:07 2006:

)


#259 of 290 by cross on Mon Mar 13 15:29:03 2006:

This response has been erased.



#260 of 290 by twenex on Mon Mar 13 15:51:20 2006:

Re: #259. I see. For one, your original statement implied, or at least I took
it as implying, that RMS and the OSI were "intimately connected" in the way
that RMS and the FSF are. I didn't realize that the OSF had merely "taken his
side".

For another, RMS/FSF advocate free software, not merely "Open Source", which
the OSF is "responsible" and which looser definition merely *includes*, but
is not restricted to, free software.

Re: #256. Why should Stallman, or anyone, give anyone the right to use,
modify, and distribute software they've distributed *with source*, without
requiring them to either (a) give credit to the original authors, (b)
distribute either the original, or their modified, source under the same 
conditions as the source they got in the first place, (c) pay up, or (d) some 
combination of the preceding?

Might as well work one's rear end off to buy a High Definition, Widescreen,
Digital Television, then give it to the nearest beggar, complete with
generator.

The only people who really want to have the right not to distribute source are
those who are interested in getting something for nothing and charging for the
privilege.


#261 of 290 by twenex on Mon Mar 13 15:53:10 2006:

Charging others for the privilege, that is.


#262 of 290 by cross on Mon Mar 13 16:38:21 2006:

This response has been erased.



#263 of 290 by keesan on Mon Mar 13 18:23:01 2006:

The Linksys wireless card works in Windows (I think, we have no signal to test
it on but the driver CD installed drivers and found the card).  A neighbor
lent us a Netgear card to try with linux, but it needs the same linux module.
I got the source code at Driverguide (Realtek's links are broken) but can't
compile it - I get lots of warnings and then an error.  I downloaded the Win98
driver for it (about 100K) and unzipped to get a .sys and a .inf file. 
Obviously this is not the self-installing type of driver.  How do we feed it
properly to Win98? I want to test it before returning it to the neighbor so
he will know if it works.  (He sleeps until late afternoon).  

We also found a Yahoo camera setup exe that installed itself somewhere or
other but we have no idea where.  Jim fixed the camera somehow.  .1 MP.
Serial cable, not working with our DOS Photopc download software.


#264 of 290 by ball on Mon Mar 13 18:52:44 2006:

Is that a Webcam?  What make & model?  I recently got one
that works with NetBSD (probably Linux too).  Mine is a
Logitech Quickcan Chat.  Once I have DSL, I will try video-
conferencing with it.


#265 of 290 by keesan on Tue Mar 14 01:06:12 2006:

Tiger Direct Yahoo Digital Camera.  Blue and yellow, 320x200, stores 20 low
res photos.  We installed the software (ran the .exe file) and I have no idea
where it was put.  An online review said to reboot to use it so we plugged
in the camera and 10 min later got back into Win98 and still had no idea how
to download a photo.  1.1MB .exe file, no instructions for use.

We took the laptop computer with wireless card to the library.  A librarian
helped us fill in the same long number on two lines and we still have no
connection.  Jim plugged in his USB memory stick to a computer there and it
does not work. The library said they will fix that eventually.  There is a
floppy drive but we can only get small files onto it and the whole point was
to download things like kernel source.

Win98 would not work with the USB stick so we used a 1-floppy linux to
transfer 2.8MB of file for the other wireless card from my linux download.
Win98 says it cannot find some files it needs.  We seem to have Win98FE.

The first card is said to have worked on a friend's computer, I wonder how.
I am going to get out some paper books and go home now.


#266 of 290 by ball on Tue Mar 14 01:41:54 2006:

In case this helps, I found a few random pages on the Web
that seem to suggest that uses the STM STV680 chipset.  I
don't know whether Linux drivers are available, but if the
camera supports a removeable flash card (like my cheap
digital still camera, which uses Smartmedia cards), you may
be able to mount those cards in a suitable reader and read
that way the pictures you take.


#267 of 290 by keesan on Tue Mar 14 02:51:31 2006:

The card has about 100Kbytes of built-in RAM, not a flash card.  The only
mention I found for it for linux was that nobody had any idea whether it
worked and to let them know if it did.  My expensive Olympus digital camera
uses Smartmedia cards (for which I have a reader that works in linux but not
DOS) and it also comes with a serial download cable that works in linux or
DOS (40K, fits onto a book disk).  Can you find linux software for the camer?
It apparently takes nighttime photos via infrared flash and Jim wants to try
it for fun.  A grexer gave it to us.  It is reviewed under 'toys, other'. 


#268 of 290 by ball on Tue Mar 14 05:06:02 2006:

My wife recently bought an Olympus digital camera. I suspect
(althought I have yet to confirm this) that it supports the
umass standard and should work directly with systems like
NetBSD and Linux.

I'll look for open-source drivers for your Yahoo Digital
Camera.


#269 of 290 by mcnally on Tue Mar 14 07:20:41 2006:

 The Olympus camera I bought 4 years ago worked as a USB mass
 storage device, as does the one I bought earlier this year.
 I'm sure yours will as well.  


#270 of 290 by ball on Tue Mar 14 08:58:56 2006:

Nice job Olympus! ;-)


#271 of 290 by keesan on Tue Mar 14 14:52:58 2006:

Mine is never going to work as a USB mass storage device because it only comes
with a serial cable.  The card reader is mass-storage.
I found STV0680.c linux software but it seems to be for USB.  I also found
two other Win98 drivers to try next with the Yahoo camera.  The camera is said
to also need Video4Linux (maybe to act as a webcam?  Maybe to take single
photos while acting as a webcam?).  Someone using it with Windows said just
to plug it in and reboot to download photos, which is all we are after.
Lots of other cheap cameras (spycam, pen camera) use this chip.


#272 of 290 by ball on Tue Mar 14 15:12:34 2006:

I don't know if this helps...

          http://gkall.hobby.nl/stv680-aiptek.html

               ...or if it supports the RS-232 cable option.
Have you tried sane or gphoto?


#273 of 290 by keesan on Tue Mar 14 22:08:12 2006:

I have SANE set up for a scanner.  I deleted the qcam parts, which I think
are for webcam.  I read about gphoto - it is about a 5MB download with dozens
of dependencies, and most things won't compile on my system.  Today we tried
three Win98 drivers and they all installed but there are no instructions about
what to do next.  This camera has a serial cable.  Jim just wants to play with
it a bit and take infrared flash shots and I am not going to knock myself out
trying to compile a huge program, one little bit of which downloads images
from this toy camera.  

How does one use a camera that is not USB in Windows?  It installed a couple
dozen files, I think.  The third of these Win98 packages is 1.1MB.

It put files stv* into c:\windows\system :  cfg, dll, sys, drv.  Ten files.

Maybe the batteries ran down?  It has stopped beeping when we reboot.


#274 of 290 by ball on Wed Mar 15 01:50:03 2006:

It's some time since I saw a digital camera with a serial
interface.  That was an old Apple QuickTake (I forget which
model, but perhaps all of them had serial ports).  If the
supplied software doesn't work with your camera, I don't
know what to suggest, since I doubt there's a serial
equivalent of umass.


#275 of 290 by keesan on Wed Mar 15 02:00:50 2006:

It probably does work, we just don't have any instructions how to use it.
Our other two serial cameras work with 40K of Photopc software in DOS or
linux, for downloads, or to list what is on there, remove it, rename it, etc.
I don't know what the 1.1MB of Windows software is supposed to do, or how.
umass - usb-storage?  I will look into qcam (SANE).


#276 of 290 by keesan on Wed Mar 15 03:56:11 2006:

I am about to try compiling a PCMCIA kernel to use with the 133MHz laptop and
the wireless card.  Can someone give a simple summary of how to go about this?
I have kernel source code in /usr/src/linux-2.4.31 (linked to
/lib/modules/2.4.31/build) and I think I put the pcmcia-cs package there and
unpack it and run a make config on that package as well as for the kernel.


#277 of 290 by gull on Fri Mar 17 08:09:10 2006:

Re resp:222: Good luck finding a USB wireless adapter that works with 
MacOS.  I never did.  I found one D-Link model that was supposed to, 
but the drivers were terrible and made MacOS unstable. 
 
 
Re resp:248: Actually, I think a problem with X11 is that there *are* 
so many options.  Instead of having one or two window managers that are 
really good, and one or two sets of widgets and interface standards to 
support, there are dozens of half-baked ones.  The network-oriented 
operation of X also made it slow, which has since inspired three or 
four direct rendering methods, all of which are (of course) 
incompatible with each other. 


#278 of 290 by twenex on Fri Mar 17 09:37:48 2006:

Better dozens of half-baked ones to choose from than one half-baked one you're
forced to use.


#279 of 290 by keesan on Fri Mar 17 15:57:39 2006:

Jim mentioned to people that we were trying to get PCMCIA and modems working
so someone in his Dawn Ducks group gave him two external 56K (probably v92)
and a router with an Airwire 330TX Maxgate.  Maxgate is made by Umax and I
could not find any drivers for it there.  I could not find Airwire 330TX on
the web.  I found Addtron AEF-330TX which uses the same chip as Accton EN1217
according to BSD, and the Macronix 98713 chip, which is supported by tulip
but may need something special done during compilation.  I will try it anyway,
precompiled module from Slackware.  

This card plugs into a PCMCIA slot in a box that also has a printer port and
two ethernet ports labelled PC and hub and one wider WAN? port.  What gets
plugged into each of these?  Do we plug something from the ISP (if we have
DSL) into one port and a hub into the other into which we can plug several
computers (if we don't want to use wireless)?  I presume we can take this same
wireless card and put it into a laptop computer to take to the library.
What is the WAN used for and how?


#280 of 290 by ball on Fri Mar 17 16:09:55 2006:

Re #277: I was really hoping to use NetBSD, but my iBook's
  firmware wouldn't boot from an ffs partition.  I tried
  OpenDarwin, but it was dismal.  Perhaps I'll try putting
  the NetBSD kernel on a small Darwin partition and making
  the rest of the disk ffs.  Failing all that, I'll need to
  find MacOS X Panther on CD.

Re #279: What is the make and model of the mystery box?


#281 of 290 by keesan on Fri Mar 17 16:17:24 2006:

MaxGate UGate-3300 Wireless Sharing Router with Print Server.


#282 of 290 by keesan on Fri Mar 17 16:47:41 2006:

UMax has links to linux drivers for its routers, but they are broken.  I tried
to write them and they returned my mail.  THey use sorbs blacklist.


#283 of 290 by rcurl on Fri Mar 17 20:54:04 2006:

Re #277: http://www.macwireless.com/html/products/11g_11b_cards/11bUSB.php


#284 of 290 by ball on Fri Mar 17 21:20:10 2006:

Re #281: http://www.homenethelp.com/web/review/ugate-3300.asp


#285 of 290 by gull on Sat Mar 18 00:54:53 2006:

Re resp:283: Wow! That's steep! I think the D-Link model (which works fine
with Linux, but not with MacOS) cost $60.


#286 of 290 by keesan on Sat Mar 18 01:07:51 2006:

When compiling a PCMCIA kernel, if I am going to use precompiled modules do
I answered N or M to CONFIG_PCMCIA?  I tried both ways.  If I don't have APM
and PNP and I get messages about them being unresolved symbols while using
precompiled modules, do I need to answer Y to them or compile my own modules?


#287 of 290 by gull on Mon Mar 20 02:38:10 2006:

I think you need CONFIG_PCMCIA to provide the framework the other PCMCIA
modules work with. I'm not totally sure, though. I don't compile many kernels
from scratch anymore.


#288 of 290 by keesan on Mon Mar 20 16:05:22 2006:

I had to answer N in order to compile directly within the downloaded pcmcia
package instead of using the precompiled modules.  It works now except Cardbus
has a bus and does not work.  The precompiled modules for some reason did not
work with the precompiled kernel so I had to compile kernel and modules in
two steps.  Answering Y would have compiled drivers into the kernel, M would
have NOT compiled any drivers, N lets you compile them yourself afterwards.
Very confusing, and now I need to learn to use /sbin/hotplug and maybe some
other scripts in order to use regular PCI modules with Cardbus cards.


#289 of 290 by wilt on Tue May 16 23:52:02 2006:

HACKED BY GNAA LOL JEWS DID WTC LOL


#290 of 290 by ball on Wed Oct 4 01:49:08 2006:

My networked home now has an 802.11g LAN in addition to a
small 10baseT LAN in the study.  The wired LAN connects via
the wireless LAN and then DSL to the Internet.  AT&T DSL
registration requires access to MS Windows.


There are no more items selected.

You have several choices: