Grex Cyberpunk Conference

Item 148: fcc, aa8dp, ksmr, militia, usa

Entered by tsty on Fri Apr 13 09:35:53 2001:

50 new of 99 responses total.


#50 of 99 by raven on Mon Apr 16 00:07:05 2001:

BTW Rane fm stations are spaced at .2 mhz not .1 that still leaves space for
100 broadcasters in an given area.  Also here is an interesting article
in the Washington Post on micro power broadcasting that was written before
the liscenses for micro power broadcast were all but killed in December of
last year:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2125-2000May14.h
tml


#51 of 99 by raven on Mon Apr 16 00:44:30 2001:

Here is an interesting article from the Libertarian perspective in Reason
magazine on how "spectrum scarcity" is a red herring created by the FCC.

http://www.reason.com/9510/WALKERfeat.html


#52 of 99 by krj on Mon Apr 16 02:36:28 2001:

It's probably pointless to bring history up.  The FCC was moving forward 
vigorously on a proposal to license hundreds of low-power stations.  The 
broadcast lobby and NPR went to Congress and legislation forbidding the 
FCC from working on this issue, at all, ever, was embedded in one of the 
giant end-of-session omnibus bills.  Clinton had promised to defend the 
low power broadcasting proposal but he was unwilling to take it as far 
as vetoing the omnibus bill and shutting down the government again.
(This was in late 2000.)

I do not have a technical background, but from what I've read I believe 
that the broadcast lobby lied about the technical threats posed by the 
low power stations in order to get Congress to roll over.  Congress will 
do anything for the broadcast lobby, since they need access to the 
airwaves to run ads for re-election.

Anyway, the FCC worked really hard on trying to liberalize the low power 
broadcast rules, one really cannot have asked them to do more.  


#53 of 99 by gull on Mon Apr 16 03:08:10 2001:

Re #51: In a world like the one the article suggests, where interference 
problems were resolved via lawsuits, I think you'd see even fewer small 
stations than there are now.  The companies with the big pockets would 
still dominate, because they'd have the money to bring and win legal 
disputes.


#54 of 99 by russ on Mon Apr 16 03:57:27 2001:

Re #36:  Broadcasters can have their licenses revoked if their use
of the airwaves is "not in the public interest".  If you have a
problem with a station being a clone of another station on the dial,
write letters to the FCC about their waste of spectrum not being in
the public interest.  Send a copy to the station with a note that it
should go in their public file.  Enough of this from enough people,
and they may change format or fail to get their license renewed.
(I *really* suggest this if you live in an area with a lot of
religious broadcasters and no jazz, classical or NPR station.  The
right wing does it to everyone else, do it back to them.)

As for the crank in #0, if he has 13,000 supporters willing to
lend guns to his defense why the hell don't they all just put
$5 in an envelope and mail it to him, giving him enough money to
buy a broadcasting license and a certified transmitter?

Re #38:  Clue:  Just because we own the Interstate system in common
doesn't mean that we don't need rules for what you can do on it and how.


#55 of 99 by raven on Mon Apr 16 05:24:19 2001:

re #53 Good point that actually occured to me as well.  I'm not a big
fan of the livertarians but I welcome any creative  constructive thought
at this point on how to break the log jam the the big radio monopolies
have on the airwaves. FYO in one of the articles I read it said Clear
Channel communication owns 1200 radio satations, clearly that shows
that the way the spectrum is being divied up is out of hand.

p.s. I'm going to leave the livertarian typo I like it :-)


#56 of 99 by raven on Mon Apr 16 05:30:36 2001:

re #54 Did I say we didn't need rules Russ, I did not.  What I suggested
was that the current rules such as no fm transmiters can be liscensed
under 100 watts (the elimination of the class d liscense) and the 4,000
dollar cost of a liscense to broadcast bias the process towards corporate
and NPR style radio stations at the expense of smaller more diverse radio
stations.  I think this is a bad outcome and I would like to see it changed.

Nowhere did I say anything such as "smash the state dude," if you thought
that's what I was implying then that's all on you. :-)


#57 of 99 by rcurl on Mon Apr 16 06:24:39 2001:

Correction: stations are spaced at 0.2 Mhz in the FM band (at odd
decimals.. x.1, x.3, etc). This does not change any of the above
discussion to any significant degree. 


#58 of 99 by raven on Mon Apr 16 06:29:26 2001:

re #57 true enough but it can fun to nitpick sometimes.


#59 of 99 by rcurl on Mon Apr 16 06:37:54 2001:

(Especially to pick one's own nits.....)


#60 of 99 by danr on Mon Apr 16 11:57:51 2001:

If someone can't come up with $4,000 for a broadcast license, how are 
they going to come up with the money to buy equipment and run a 
station? As I said earlier, I'm all for micropower stations, but the 
realities of setting up and running one is going to limit the diversity 
you seek. Whether you're in it for the music or for advancing a 
particular politicial cuase, you'll get much more bang for your buck by 
using a print media or setting up an Internet radio station.


#61 of 99 by tsty on Mon Apr 16 13:42:20 2001:

$4000 will buy a lot of radio shack stuff ... ham fests and other
technically oriented 'gatherings' and a few books (gasp! read!) on
antenna theory ....viola! $3500 left over for budweiser!


#62 of 99 by raven on Mon Apr 16 15:31:58 2001:

re#61 Thanks tsty that's that's the gist of what I was about to say.


#63 of 99 by danr on Mon Apr 16 16:01:10 2001:

You guys are really underestimating the time and money it will take to 
run such an operation. Sure, you can buy cheap stuff at hamfests, but 
what are you going to do when it breaks? 

Where are you going to put the antenna? Chances are you're going to 
have to pay some rent for that space.

Take a look at how much it costs us to run Grex. You better plan on at 
least that much to run a radio station.


#64 of 99 by danr on Mon Apr 16 17:30:02 2001:

Here's what Nick Farr, General Manager of WCBN, had to say:

"Our budget is about $75,000; but that doesn't include rent or 
utilities for our facility, transmitter or antenna, *or* staff 
salaries. (Our staff is entirely student based, the exec staff 
positions get a small stipend that covers books for the term.)

"Usually, a MINIMUM station budget is about $250-500,000, assuming that 
the DJ staff is volunteer and there are three full-time positions 
(General Manager, Program/Music Director and Chief Engineer). The 
smallest budget for a completely independent station, that we've seen, 
is $50,000 for a homebrew community radio station in Ohio run out of 
some guy's barn. Their studios, transmitter, and antenna are on the 
same small piece of farmland. His startup costs were in the $100,000 
range.

"Commercial stations usually run budgets at minimum of $1,000,000. "


#65 of 99 by flem on Mon Apr 16 20:05:08 2001:

re 41:  Are you *crazy*?  What's wrong with you?!!?!

I mean, Budweiser?!  Good God, man, you're sick.  Sick!


#66 of 99 by danr on Mon Apr 16 23:03:59 2001:

Hey...remember it's tsty who posted that. :)


#67 of 99 by raven on Tue Apr 17 08:00:22 2001:

re #64 I suspect Stephen Dunifers budget for Radio Free Berkeley in a year is
closer to 500 than 500,000.  He runs it out of a backpack and manages to
run a very tight on frequncy station at the same time being a former radio
engineer.  You have just swallowed corporate line hook line and sinker Dan.


#68 of 99 by scott on Tue Apr 17 11:20:13 2001:

If you only want to run a few watts then you can stick an antenna out your
window.  You only need a tower on some farmland if you are planning on pumping
thousands of watts into the air.

One full watt is pretty powerful, actually.  At work we've used radio data
terminals which put out 1 watt around 400MHz or so, and that signal can go
a mile or two.  At lower frequencies you can send a couple of watts quite a
ways (hand-held CB radios).


#69 of 99 by n8nxf on Tue Apr 17 11:42:02 2001:

Just put a good, tight, filter on the output.  Mark From Michigan runs
a watt or more out of his junk yard out there on Dexter Pinckney and the
thing splatters all over the FM band!  He needs a simple cavity to clean
that mess up.  (He could use the barrel of a cannon or something.)


#70 of 99 by gull on Tue Apr 17 12:24:04 2001:

One of the (commercial) AM stations in Houghton is (in)famous for 
pushing their transmitter a bit too hard.  Every time there's a voice 
peak, it splatters, and you can hear buckshot all up and down the band.


#71 of 99 by danr on Tue Apr 17 15:56:40 2001:

WCBN is a corporation?  When did that happen? 

I'm speaking both from my experience as an engineer, businessperson, 
and Grex board member--not as a  corporate lackey. The rule of thumb in 
all those ventures is that it always costs more than you think it will. 
And I've yet to run into a situation where that rule of thumb was 
broken.

All I can say, raven, is go for it. If you think you can do it on the 
cheap, and have it make an impact, be my guest.


#72 of 99 by raven on Wed Apr 18 00:09:11 2001:

Dan thanks to attitudes like yoursI can't for it without being criminal.
That is really my main point, IF a micro power boradcaster takes the
responsability to broadcast with a clean transmiter why should they
be criminalized?


#73 of 99 by rcurl on Wed Apr 18 05:34:01 2001:

They won't be, if they get a license (but I presume you mean,
without a license). Well, what right do you have to occupy that
frequency by yourself when others might want to use it? Someone
must judge your right compared to that of others, which is what
licensing is. Also, if you use it unlicensed, what basis do you
have for 'complaining' if others used the same frequency?


#74 of 99 by goose on Wed Apr 18 05:43:54 2001:

RE#69 -- does he actually transmit?  I've listened a bit for that station,
but never heard anything.  If I remember he's awfully close to WUOM, bot in
frequency and in location.


#75 of 99 by scott on Wed Apr 18 11:29:53 2001:

Re 73:  But what if there seems to be plenty of frequencies available, but
no way (or even an application process) to get a license to use them?  In the
last couple of years the FCC was about to allow micropower licenses, but a
heavy lobbying effort by the National Association of Broadcasters (including
NPR, which is disappointing) killed it.


#76 of 99 by n8nxf on Wed Apr 18 12:06:29 2001:

RE#74-- Indeed he does.  Perhaps not all the time but I've listened in several
times.  He must have some sort of robot playing music and adds on it.  I've
heard spots for Mill Creek Sporting Goods, a gun show at the Saline Fair
Grounds, and a spot for that card store behind the Fox Village theater.  The
last time I picked it up I was just scanning the FM band in the basement of
my house, located about two miles, as the crow flies, from his surplus museum.
To top it off, it was going even though he's in jail.  (As do the Friday
meetings.)


#77 of 99 by danr on Wed Apr 18 12:24:31 2001:

re #72: I am FOR micropower radio stations. I want people to be able to 
get licenses to run them. BUT, as Rane points out, licensing is 
essential. All I can say is to keep lobbying your representatives and 
senators and get them to pass a law forcing the FCC to allow them.


#78 of 99 by rcurl on Wed Apr 18 14:50:29 2001:

Are the objections of NPR, NAB or anyone else easily available on the
web? I've heard that they objected, but have not heard their reasons.


#79 of 99 by gull on Wed Apr 18 15:03:16 2001:

They objected on the grounds that it would create too much interference 
for people trying to listen to their stations, basically.


#80 of 99 by rcurl on Wed Apr 18 15:14:36 2001:

I'd like to see the details of the analysis that demonstrates that. 
If there are open channels at 0.2 Mhz intervals, how does the interference
occur if those channels are used for minipower stations?


#81 of 99 by tpryan on Wed Apr 18 15:54:40 2001:

        If you where broadcasting mini-power on 107.3fm, would your
neighbor be able to get 107.1fm?


#82 of 99 by rcurl on Wed Apr 18 17:37:01 2001:

Sure. I can now hear separate stations on 91.1 and 91.3 (and
similarly elsewhere on the 'dial'). It does depend somewhat on
the quality of the transmitting and receiving equipment, however, so
they are sufficiently selective. Transmitters for mini-stations would
have to be type approved (and people take their chances when they
buy receivers).


#83 of 99 by scott on Wed Apr 18 18:29:12 2001:

So what's the problem with somebody manufacturing micropower transmitters with
sufficiently accurate transmission characteristics?  It's commonplace in the
world of cell phones and CD radios, and has been for years.  If I recall, the
biggest argument the anti-micropower lobby used was that "these amateurs would
be all over the spectrum with their crappy homebrewed stations".


#84 of 99 by raven on Wed Apr 18 18:43:18 2001:

I don't mind the idea of getting a liscense as I have stated before.  What
I mind is that the liscense is 4000 dollars (which I don't have) and that
it's the law that stations have to be over 100 watts (which adds even more
to the expense of a station).  If I am responsible about making sure the
station doesn't overlap other stations and stays on frequency why should
I be prohibited from broadcasting because I am a low income person?  Perhaps
for those in the upper middle class they can see no difference between a
4000 dollar liscense and say a 200 dollar liscense, but I can assure you
when your means are limited that that is a large difference indeed.

Also Stephen Dunifer states on his Radio Free Berkeley web site that 
there are now ic chips that will keep a micropower station on frequncy
and from interfering with adjacent frequncies so the argument that low
cost home brew stations can't be run responsibly.


#85 of 99 by raven on Wed Apr 18 18:45:38 2001:

is a lot of bs.  For some reason the end of my last response got cut off when I
posted it...


#86 of 99 by goose on Wed Apr 18 21:44:51 2001:

RE#80 -- I'm sure its in the public comments of the notice of rulemaking on
the FCCs website, btu it's a bitch to find things on there.  I remember
reading about the NAB complaining that eliminating third channel separation
was going to cause all sorts of chaos, 2nd channel separation was not enough
for them.


#87 of 99 by krj on Wed Apr 18 22:22:57 2001:

Rane in resp:80 :: Analysis?  What analysis?  The FCC's studies said there
would be no problem.  The broadcast lobby made up a CD of bad-sounding
radio, sent it to everyone in Congress, and claimed that this is what
radio stations would sound like if the micropower proposal passed.
Bluntly, the broadcast lobby *lied* to maintain its stranglehold.


#88 of 99 by krj on Wed Apr 18 22:26:37 2001:

Here's a URL for the FCC's discussion of that bogus CD the broadcasters
sent to Congress:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/News_Releases/2000/nret00
05.html



#89 of 99 by gull on Wed Apr 18 23:56:21 2001:

Re #82: The argument is more that, say I'm on the fringe of a 
commercial station's coverage area.  Now let's say someone starts up a 
micropower FM station nearby on the same frequency.  Their signal is 
either going to capture my receiver, or cause really annoying flutter 
between theirs and the commercial station's.

Personally, I agree that this probably wouldn't have been a widespread 
problem, though it probably would have happened some places.  The 
current broadcasters were simply acting in their own narrow self 
interest.  Not only do they not want more competition, they really don't 
want the headaches of having to deal with more reception complaints.


#90 of 99 by rcurl on Thu Apr 19 06:27:26 2001:

Something wrong with that URL, Ken. Would you check it please, and post
again?

This may be the analysis that I asked about earlier. 

Because the transmitter would have to be type-approved, and each would be
set up to operate only on the licensed frequency, I would judge that a 100
watt xmtr would cost ca. $1,000. 

I also think that the FCC would only license corporations to run such
ministations, for the public protection that offers. That's not a big
burden, however, as incorporation costs very little. 



#91 of 99 by krj on Thu Apr 19 21:35:42 2001:

((Rane, I just retested the link by reading the conference through 
Netscape and clicking on it, and it worked fine.  My link seems to be wrapped
around two lines.  If you can't get it to work, try a google search:
    fcc low power disinformation hatfield
and that should get you right to the page.))


#92 of 99 by rcurl on Fri Apr 20 06:06:15 2001:

I thought I had corrected for the wrap, but I left a little bit because
it did not show in the window into which I pasted the URL. Works OK now. 

The report answers my question: the FCC believes there are no valid
reasons not to license the low power FM stations. Well, try, try, again.
To succeed, of course, you have to get a lot of congresspersons to
support the service.


#93 of 99 by krj on Fri Apr 20 12:42:38 2001:

IIRC, the law passed by Congress forbids the FCC from doing anying 
regarding low power licenses.  Period.  The agency is not allowed to make more 
studies or more proposals.  Ever.   Of course the law *could* be repealed.
All you would have to do is outbid the broadcast lobby for the affections
of Congress.
 
Again IIRC, it was commented at the time that Congress had never before
overruled the FCC on spectrum management.
 
Big Lies and Big Money have closed this issue for the forseeable
future.


#94 of 99 by gull on Fri Apr 20 14:54:27 2001:

It's just part of the country's continued shift to the right.  The 
radio spectrum is now seen as a resource that can be auctioned off to 
the highest bidder.


#95 of 99 by flem on Fri Apr 20 15:05:07 2001:

The em spectrum is very valuable, and brings the government lots of money.
I seem to recall that recently, a band of frequencies were auctioned off for
some ludicrously large amount of money.  It was supposed to be the most
expensive auction purchase ever.  iirc, Nokia got it, but I could be wrong.


#96 of 99 by tpryan on Fri Apr 20 16:29:57 2001:

        the auction price is very cheap for the revenue produceing 
resource gained.  What the goverment should get also is a piece of
the action.  Of gross revenue, not just net profit.


#97 of 99 by gull on Sat Apr 21 03:25:01 2001:

Re #96: In the case of radio and TV licenses, they do, I think.  Aren't 
there annual renewal fees?


#98 of 99 by rcurl on Sat Apr 21 05:33:13 2001:

The amateur radio license must be renewed at 10 years intervals. I
don't know what the interval is for commerical licenses. 


#99 of 99 by tpryan on Sat Apr 21 11:45:53 2001:

        It is much shorter for commerical (broadcast) licenses.  Like
every three or 4 years.

re 97: re 96:   I was thinking not only a percent of gross advertising
revenue in the case of broadcasters (radio&TV), but also percent
of revenue for wireless phone use.


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