Grex Cyberpunk Conference

Item 122: Mp3's?

Entered by k8cpa on Tue Mar 7 21:52:06 2000:

47 new of 183 responses total.


#137 of 183 by krj on Fri Jun 16 23:05:36 2000:

Many news sites have been reporting that mp3.com is settling licensing
deals with various labels in the wake of their court loss to the RIAA.
inside.com attempts to analyze the financial situation, and they conclude
that after mp3.com settles with the songwriters and all the labels, 
that there is no way for them to come up with a profitable business 
model for the my.mp3.com streaming service, even if they charge
an annual subscription fee of $10 to their users.
..


#138 of 183 by sspan on Sat Jun 17 03:48:48 2000:

Um... I don't get where the price of a CD is 'breathtakingly' high.. $12?
You can't afford $12?? I see 16 year old kids driving around in Lexus' and
BMW's with cellphones and pagers, $150 sneakers, designer clothes, and they
don't want to pay $12 for a CD... gimmme a break people.. geez, an LP was like
$8-$10 25 years ago.. figure in inflation and all and I don't see where CDs
are overpriced.. you pay over a buck nowdays for a bottle of sugerwater 'cause
it has the name Pepsi or Coke on it.. how much does that cost them to make?


#139 of 183 by jor on Sat Jun 17 14:22:56 2000:

        (great music business item . . thanks)


#140 of 183 by mcnally on Sun Jun 18 05:36:02 2000:

  re #138:  $12?  When was the last time you bought a CD?


#141 of 183 by sspan on Sun Jun 18 16:13:06 2000:

re #140: a couple of weeks ago. I used the $12 figure because that was what
someone else mentioned. Okay, let's change it to what I normally pay for a
new release. $12.99? You can't pay $12.99 for a CD?


#142 of 183 by krj on Mon Jun 19 04:15:19 2000:

Finally, a force which can undermine the march of MP3s!  
It turns out the darn things are under patents, and the patent holder
is now starting to collect royalties from download sites, web radio
sites and software companies using the MP3 format.  Holy GIF file, 
Batman!  :)  A group of open-source types are working on a replacement
royalty-free version called Vorbis.

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-2091466.html


#143 of 183 by polygon on Mon Jun 19 21:00:29 2000:

Re 138.  I don't have a Lexus or BMW or anything approaching it, indeed, I
didn't have a car at all until I was married and benefited from pooling
incomes.  My shoes cost a small fraction of $150 and have to last a long time;
I don't buy designer clothes and neither does my wife.  A huge chunk of our
income goes to paying off student loans, and will for years.  I'm glad you're
feeling wealthy, but I am not. 

Yes, twelve bucks, or I guess sixteen bucks or twenty-five bucks, is a
breathtaking price to pay for a piece of plastic that costs probably $1.50 to
manufacture and distribute.  (Out of the remaining money, what does the artist
get -- a few cents per CD?  Funny thing!)

That's why I haven't bought any new CDs for myself in years.  I used to buy CDs
occasionally at concerts (where typically the artist DOES get more than a
trivial share of the money), but I don't get out to many concerts any more.

I suppose you should be happy I'm not fooling around with Napster and MP3's
either. But you probably think I'm guilty of piracy for listening to the radio
but tuning out the commercials.  Feh.


#144 of 183 by tpryan on Mon Jun 19 21:48:24 2000:

        5.7 cents/song for mechanical reproduction.  probably another
5 cents or so to the songwritter.


#145 of 183 by polygon on Mon Jun 19 23:49:53 2000:

Re 143.  Oops, sorry about the terrible formatting.


#146 of 183 by mcnally on Tue Jun 20 00:49:43 2000:

re #142:  Nearly everything's under patent these days -- it's getting
to be prohibitively difficult to write a useful free software application
that's not encumbered.

I wonder, though, what makes the patent holders think they have the rights
to control the works produced using their invention.  If their patents are
valid they probably have the right to control who makes software or hardware
that encodes or decodes MP3s, but how is a site infringing on their patent
merely by storing a stream of bytes conforming to the MP3 format?


#147 of 183 by sspan on Wed Jun 21 04:08:25 2000:

Why would I think someone guilty of piracy for listening to the radio? Radio
stations generally comply with the copyright laws (unless you're listening
to a pirate station). And you should realize I'm speaking in general terms.
There are a lot of people out there that CAN afford CDs, but will still
download the songs for free instead of buying them. I'm also sure there area
lot of musicians that are glad to hear that people are doing them a big favor
in there struggles with the record companies by not buying any of their CDs.
I know if I was only getting a small return on each copy I'd want to sell as
few as possible


#148 of 183 by cyklone on Wed Jun 21 11:43:50 2000:

That's an interesting aproach to economics.


#149 of 183 by polygon on Wed Jun 21 12:25:25 2000:

Re 147.  No, you don't get it, do you?  I'm not doing anyone a big favor.
I'm simply not interested in CDs at the current much-too-high prices.

Think back to economics, if you ever studied it.  This is a concept called
"elasticity of demand".  If you raise the price too high, many people will
choose not to buy.  If you lower the price, demand will increase.

A product for which the demand is inelastic will sell the same number of
units almost regardless of the price.  The example often given is salt.
The price of table salt could triple without affecting the quantity sold
very much.

When demand for a product is elastic, then the number of units sold will
rise rapidly with declines in price.  Quite likely, the total amount of
money spent on the product will increase because the higher sales volume
more than makes up for the lower number of units sold.

The demand for CDs is, I would argue, highly elastic.  Certainly my own
personal demand for CDs is elastic.  If CDs were in the range of $3 to $5,
I would probably be buying them frequently.  With CDs in the $12 to $25
range, the quantity I purchase is simply zero.  The fact that these high
prices are maintained by to monopolistic advantage is all the more reason
to refrain from taking part in this market.

At a concert, when I used to attend concerts, I would make an exception.
The fact that the artist got more of the money helped reconcile me to what
was still an extraordinarily high price.  That consideration simply does
not apply to CDs in stores.

I'm sorry you have so much trouble with this simple concept.


#150 of 183 by sspan on Sat Jun 24 02:47:39 2000:

And I'm sorry you are having so much trouble with the simple concept that I
am not speaking specifically about you. Yes, there are other people in the
world, ya know.


#151 of 183 by gelinas on Sat Jun 24 04:46:13 2000:

Thing is, he's not alone.  There are a couple of CDs I'd really like to 
have, but I can't pay the price for them right now.  Were the price to drop
to $5, I'd get them.


#152 of 183 by otaking on Sat Jun 24 16:37:25 2000:

I'd buy a lot more CDs if they were $5 each. I've seen some new releases go
for $8-10 (Tracy Bonham, Tara MacLean). Why not price other new releases in
that range?


#153 of 183 by carla on Sat Jun 24 20:08:17 2000:

yeah no doubt.


#154 of 183 by krj on Sat Jul 15 23:43:18 2000:

http://www.inside.com/story/Story_Cached/0,2770,6643_0,00.html
 
"Hatch Warns Labels, Don't Make Me Come Over There And Spank You"
 
This was the most entertaining report on this week's hearings at 
the Senate Judiciary Committee.   The Detroit News ran an editorial
cartoon depicting a elderly Senator asking: "So how will Napster 
affect the sale of 8-track tapes?"   But in all the reports I've
seen, committee chairman Orrin Hatch showed a good grasp of 
both the technical and social issues.  Hatch brings an interesting
perspective to this conflict, since he is a songwriter in the 
Christian music business.  (I had not known that.)

Hatch criticized the music industry for trying to use copyright
as an absolute control over the use of their music.  He pushed for 
an expansive view of fair use to cover casual sharing of recordings.
When Hilary Rosen of the RIAA objected to Hatch's views on fair use,
Hatch pointedly remarked that Congress determined what copyright was.

Hatch threatened to push for a mechanical compulsory licensing system,
for online music, similar to that for songwriting, if the music 
industry does no reach "fair and reasonable" licensing agreements
with the online companies.
Hatch also complained that the inclination of the 4 major companies 
to only deal with online entities which they control tended to 
freeze out independent music companies and could become an antitrust
issue.

Senator Dianne Feinstein of California took the music industry position
in criticizing the Napster representative.


#155 of 183 by krj on Fri Jul 21 19:51:06 2000:

Feature story in the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/00/07/biztech/articles/20tune.html
  "Unknown Musicians Finding Payoffs Through the Internet Jukebox"
 
This was a front-page feature in the National print edition writing 
up some of the musicians who have made a little money, or even a 
lot of money, from MP3 downloads.  "The Internet's emerging role 
as an equal opportunity jukebox is providing new ways to make
a modest income from a relatively small base of fans."
 
The earnings star appears to be "Ernesto Cortazar, a 60-year-old
Mexican composer for films who has mainly performed in piano bars
and who has earned more than $100,000 from his online efforts."


#156 of 183 by krj on Thu Jul 27 06:44:07 2000:

For the record: the story is published everywhere, you should have 
no trouble finding it.
 
Judge Marilyn Patel granted the immediate injunction sought by 
the RIAA against Napster.  Napster is to shut down the operations 
which enable file trading by midnight Friday, Pacific time.


#157 of 183 by krj on Fri Jul 28 07:27:19 2000:

Two opposing pundit views on the aftermath of the Napster injunction:
 
The Washington Post says that the precedent of the Napster injunction
is a powerful tool which leaves the RIAA and copyright holders in
the driver's seat on the distribution of intellectual property on the 
web.  In particular, the Post author thinks even small-time operators
of Gnutella directories will be sued.

  http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56246-2000Jul27.html
 
Salon says that the RIAA has won the battle but lost the war.
Napster the company was an entity which the record labels could have 
made deals with; Napster the phenomenon, as represented by the 20
million users eager to exchange free music, isn't going anywhere, and 
now it will be much less controllable.

  http://www.salon.com/tech/col/rose/2000/07/27/napster_shutdown/index.html


#158 of 183 by mcnally on Fri Jul 28 19:48:11 2000:

  It's hard to disagree with either of those two points, except to note
  that the value of the Napster injunction "precedent" isn't set in stone -
  it will change once the RIAA/Napster suit is decided..


#159 of 183 by mcnally on Sat Jul 29 03:29:22 2000:

  Most people will have heard this by now (at least if the news coverage
  I encountered was typical) but the appeals court has issued an order
  staying the Wednesday injunction which ordered Napster to shut down by
  the end of the day.

  To put it more plainly, it appears Napster will be allowed to operate
  while the trial is conducted (unless the appeals court's ruling is itself
  reversed.)


#160 of 183 by lumen on Thu Aug 3 09:38:21 2000:

I heard an NPR interview on this.. I don't remember the name of the 
interviewee, but the gist of the interview is that this technology 
basically cannot be stopped-- users will go elsewhere if Napster is 
shut down, or they won't care much.  Either way, try as they might, the 
RIAA can't keep a lid on all of this issue, and it would be better if 
they worked it the way other media have been treated, i.e., how the 
film industry turned to video to actually *increase* their profits, and 
how cable companies have worked to make legitimate subscription a real 
value.  Basically, the RIAA just needs to get their paws into this and 
turn it to their own ends.


#161 of 183 by mcnally on Thu Aug 3 17:24:21 2000:

  Interesting article at:

   http://www.latimes.com/news/state/updates/lat_needle000801.htm

  Apparently the music and video industires aren't the only ones terrified
  about what unauthorized digital distribution is going to do to their 
  industry.  The latest front in the raging intellectual property war is
  (wait for it..):  needlepoint

  Apparently, overly frugal needlepoint fans are exchanging patterns with
  one another [don't they know how dangerous it is to share needle(points)?]
  The article reads almost, but not quite, like an Onion parody story on
  the Napster issue [Onion Quotient, or OQ, of 85%] complete with quotes like:

       "I'm promoting the designers," said Shawna Dooley, a 25-year-old
       housewife from Alberta, Canada. "We're just sampling the
       patterns. If you like one pattern, you're going to be more
       likely to go out and buy a pattern by that artist next time..."

  and

       ..paying $6 for an entire pattern book is outrageous, said Carole
       Nutter, particularly if a person wants just one or two of the
       dozen designs listed...  "It's like the CD. There's one song you
       want, but you still have to buy the whole thing," said Nutter,
       54, who lives in Bellgrave, Mont., a town of 3,000.  "Why can't
       [the industry] let us pay for what we want, not what they want
       to sell us?"

  and

       ..designer Leavitt-Imblum has ordered her attorney to start
       collecting evidence so she can sue those who exchange copies of
       her patterns, people whom she describes as the "scourge of all
       that is decent and right."


#162 of 183 by mcnally on Mon Aug 7 07:33:04 2000:

  I finally had time to go back and read Courtney Love's music-industry
  diatribe (mentioned in #99, 100, 132..) and I actually found it pretty
  lucid and thought-provoking.  Sure, she's a bit full of herself, but
  I think this is several times in a row now that I've enjoyed reading her
  opinions on music-industry issues, even if I haven't necessarily agreed
  with all of them -- if nothing else, she's not afraid to be blunt.. 
  The speech in question can be found at:

     http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html

  Could anyone with greater insight into music industry finances comment
  on the numbers she spins for her financial hypothetical?


#163 of 183 by krj on Tue Aug 8 20:46:56 2000:

Napster is the cover story on the August 14 Business Week magazine.
The material is on the web at http://www.businessweek.com


#164 of 183 by krj on Tue Aug 15 20:24:27 2000:

More articles, pointed to by the news section of mp3.com:
 
Motley Fool has an essay on why the copyright system is doomed:
http://biz.yahoo.com/mf/000814/hill_000814.html
 
Quote:
"More restrictive laws ((on copying)) can't substitute for the 
 consent of the governed.  King George tried that when the American 
 colonies started grumbling.  In the 1920s our own government tried
 it with prohibition..."
 
-----

Another story reports on Hewlett Packard releasing a new line of 
CD-RW drives, bundled with software for creating audio CDs and 
professional-looking printed graphics for the box.  HP acknowledges
that Napster users are driving the CD-RW sales.
"Market analysts figure that consumer demand could be as high
as 30 to 35 million for CD-RW drives this year."  HP reckons that
70-80% of the users are making audio CDs.


#165 of 183 by krj on Mon Aug 21 23:22:02 2000:

Many net news sources cover the brief Napster filed on Friday
with the appeals court.  This is where the RIAA seeks to reinstate
the injunction shutting down Napster, while the company seeks a 
permanent stay.  It's not clear to me that Napster is going to make any 
headway with calling the judge "naive."  It's also not clear to me 
that they will many any headway with their argument that since it is 
impossible for them to distinguish between legal and illegal file 
trading, therefore they must be allowed to operate.
 
----------
 
http://www.upside.com/News/39a1a15c0.html
 
mp3board.com is being sued for linking to illicit MP3 sites.
mp3board has now sued AOL and Time Warner; mp3board argues that AOL,
and Time Warner if the marriage comes off, should indemnify mp3board
if any of mp3board's activities with Gnutella are found to be 
infringing copyrights.  They argue that since Gnutella was developed
by the staff of an AOL division, that the prospective company AOL-Time-
Warner should not be able to collect damages for the use of a 
product they developed.


#166 of 183 by mcnally on Tue Aug 22 04:08:16 2000:

  Heh..  

  It's been astonishing to see the about-face AOL has done on MP3 issues
  since their prospective merger with Time Warner was announced.


#167 of 183 by krj on Mon Aug 28 23:42:53 2000:

Speaking of AOL's about-face:  http://www.inside.com has a piece today
on how the author of Gnutella has disappeared and seems not too happy
to have sold Winamp to AOL.

-----

News item:
 http://www.inside.com/story/Story_Cached/0,2770,8823_9_12_1,00.html

MP3.com, in the copyright case over My.MP3.Com, was able to reach  
settlements with all but one of the major labels.  Universal held out 
and so the trial now moves into a stage to determine damages. 
Universal does not budge: they want billions.  They want MP3.com  
destroyed (KRJ interpretation)   From the inside.com story: 
 
   "According to its filings, Universal is not only trying to get  
    even with MP3.com, but it is also seeking 'deterrence' -- 
    that is, to send a shrill message to Napster, Scour and the like. 
    In one brief, Universal asks Judge Jed Rakoff to 'give notice 
    to other prospective Internet billionaires that violation of the 
    law is not an acceptable business strategy.'" 
 
The article goes on to outline possible MP3.com legal defense  
strategies.


#168 of 183 by krj on Thu Aug 31 15:12:15 2000:

News item:
  http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,38525,00.html

"17 out of 50 US colleges and universities polled  have banned 
 students from using Napster's song-swap service on their 
 campuses, said a report released on Wednesday by research firm
 Gartner Group Inc.
 
 ...

"'I would not want to be the university president who neglected
 to update the school policy regarding music downloads this year,'
 said Robert Labatt, principal analyst for Gartner's e-Business 
 Services group.  'Long legal battles can be costly, and one 
 school could easily be singled out to set legal precedent
 this year.'"
 
Napster's next court date in the Court of Appeals is 
the week of October 2.


#169 of 183 by krj on Thu Sep 7 04:26:57 2000:

Continuing from resp:167 ::  Wired, and most other media, report that the
court has found that mp3.com's infringements of the Universal
Music copyrights was "willful," and it set damages at $25,000
per CD copied into the MyMp3.Com service.  Wired guesstimates
the total bill at around $118 million, which is not enough to 
put mp3.com out of business.
 
mp3.com plans to continue challenges to some of the Universal
copyrights.


#170 of 183 by krj on Thu Sep 7 04:53:59 2000:

www.inside.com says that the number of CDs which were infringed
is not determined.  mp3.com says 4700 which yields the $118 million
figure; Universal claims 10,000 which puts the damages closer to 
$250,000,000.
 
In general the www.inside.com piece is much more pessimistic about
mp3.com's survival.


#171 of 183 by richard on Thu Sep 7 04:58:38 2000:

mp3.com's stock will tank bigtime tomorrow
they wont survive on their own, will need to get bought out


#172 of 183 by krj on Fri Sep 15 03:28:28 2000:

   (( FW note:  I've linked in the two lengthy Napster items from 
      the Agora conference, now that Summer's Agora is winding down.
      I intend to keep most of the news updates on the legal war
      in this item. ))


#173 of 183 by krj on Mon Oct 9 20:54:45 2000:

Lengthy interview with Napster's lead attorney David Boies, in which 
he lays out Napster's four main legal arguments:
 
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.10/boies.html


#174 of 183 by krj on Wed Oct 11 02:28:46 2000:

http://www.upside.com runs an interesting rumor that two unnamed 
ISPs are interested in buying Napster.  The idea is that the Napster
server would only be available to customers of the purchasing ISP.
With Napster incorporated as "bait" into a profitable company, 
there would be some money to try to cut a deal with the record 
industry.  
 
No such sale can happen unless a deal can be cut with the record industry,
and the RIAA seems awfully determined not to make any deals.


#175 of 183 by orinoco on Wed Oct 11 21:36:30 2000:

Interesting.  And it would be doubly interesting to see how much damage a
"cover charge" like that would do to the size of Napster's user base.


#176 of 183 by raven on Sat Oct 14 22:54:59 2000:

Also in the same Wired mentioned in #173 a pretty good article by John
Perry Barlow on I.P. and Napster.  It makes the same points basicaly he
made in a ground breaking article on IP in Wired in 1994 that have been
addressed here, but still makes for a good read.  The URL of the earlier
article is http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.03/economy.ideas.html





#177 of 183 by mcnally on Sun Oct 15 23:54:20 2000:

  Interesting "is not / is too" accusations are flying between Salon 
  Magazine (www.salon.com) and Leonardo Chiariglione, head of the 
  industry-sponsored Secure Digital Music Initiative (SDMI)

  Salon, citing anonymous SDMI insiders, claims that *all* of the 
  watermarking, encryption, and other security technologies proposed
  as possible standards by the SDMI have already been cracked in record
  time since the SDMI began their "Hack SDMI" challenge (which invites
  would-be hackers to try for $10,000 by breaking SDMI's security schemes.)

  Chiariglione, quoted in [Inside] magazine (www.inside.com) claims that
  nobody knows the results of the contest yet and that none of the 450
  submissions have been properly examined to see whether they're successful
  cracks or not.


#178 of 183 by krj on Fri Dec 8 00:07:50 2000:

We haven't opened this can of worms for a while.  I don't know what to 
think about the deal between BMG and Napster, but one element of it, 
which proposes that Napster charge its users $5 a month, seems like 
it would badly damage Napster by driving away lots of its users, 
and thus thinning the available song selection.
 
mp3.com's streaming service "my.mp3.com" may be in even worse shape.
mp3.com got reamed in the courts for thinking they could save users
the trouble of uploading their mp3 files to the "storage locker"
service.  The revamped service will only allow free access to 
25 CDs; if you want to "store" more than that, it'll be $50 per year,
thank you.   Oh, and major-label products only, please, because those
are the only companies mp3.com has hundreds of millions of dollars
in licensing deals with.

I dunno, I think paying $50 per year to stream CDs that you are supposed
to already own is a non-starter, but then I'm used to dragging a 
box of CDs and a portable player around with me.


#179 of 183 by mcnally on Fri Dec 8 00:26:17 2000:

  It gets worse than that..  I order to prevent people from borrowing
  a copy of a CD to prove that they own it, the my.mp3.com service will
  apparently now require listeners to insert the CDs at random intervals
  to prove they still have them.  If you have to keep the CD media handy
  so you can prove you're not a thief whenever you want to listen to
  something, what exactly is the benefit of the storage locker concept?
  Lower fidelity?  High bandwidth usage?  Limited selection?

  I probably never would have gone for the original service in a big way
  but I think MP3.com got reamed while trying to do the right thing --
  all they were trying to do was provide a digital repository for content
  to which people already had access, even making good-faith efforts to
  ensure they weren't delivering music to people who didn't already have
  a copy..


#180 of 183 by krj on Wed Dec 27 05:50:16 2000:

Not purely an mp3 item, but an mp3.com news pointer leads to it.
   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/2/15620.html
discusses a "stealth plan" to put a copyright protection system
into all new hard disks starting summer 2001.  Yes, this makes 
backups and large disk farms difficult to impossible to operate.

"But for home users, the party's over.  CRPM paves the way for 
CPRM-compliant audio CDs, and the free exchange of digital 
recordings will be limited to non-CPRM media...."


#181 of 183 by mcnally on Wed Dec 27 06:00:34 2000:

  I'm extremely skeptical about the overblown claims being made in the CPRM
  stories (CPRM = Copy Protection for Removable Media..)

  It seems unlikely to me that the system can do all that its critics claim
  it will do and if indeed it does those things it seems pretty unlikely
  that it will be a widely adopted and successful technological format.


#182 of 183 by krj on Tue Jan 16 07:33:21 2001:

Pete Townshend on Napster:
http://www.petetownshend.com/press_release_diary_display.cfm?id=3961
  and if I typoed that, see www.mp3.com/news and dig down.

He seems tired of the old business model -- note his carping about BMI --
and willing to see what's coming.


#183 of 183 by micklpkl on Tue Jan 16 16:04:24 2001:

I'm not sure if I like this proposal, but there is an interesting article on
a way to make free distribution of content profitable here:

http://interocity.com/jukebox/jukebox2.html


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