I'd like to see Grex have an official way of dealing with sales of old/donated equipment. Where this comes from is my attempts to buy a monitor from the pile in the Pumpkin. Grex (the rehab committee especially) has some amount of what could be considered surplus equipment, such as old PCs, monitors, obselete Sun hardware, etc. I need a monitor for a bit of legacy gear at work, so I grabbed one from the Pumpkin (it'll come right back to the Pumpkin if needed), and sent mail offering $10 to rehab for it. However, there was some objection to me (as a staffer and board member) being able to set prices on my own, rather than from Grex's appropriate governing system. Further email yielded a deafening silence (except one piece from ajax, saying that the market for these monitors is about $1). So who *is* willing to set a price on this? I'm also interested in renting an Iolan terminal server (our spare) for a day or two for research purchases.29 responses total.
$10 seems more than reasonable for that monitor. At the JCC sales, when we couldn't get $1 for monitors like that, we first tried giving them away, and then had to dumpster a few of them. I also wouldn't worry about rent on the terminal server, unless you're looking for an excuse to get your employer to give money to Grex. We aren't using it. You've put a lot of time into getting the terminal servers working correctly, and if I remember correctly, Grex has borrowed equipment from your employer in the past. I've certainly used stuff of Grex's for work related purposes a time or two, and it hasn't even occurred to me to ask first. I've also used stuff from wrok for Grex on occasion. For example, one of the routers on Grex's ISDN connection right now belongs to my employer, since there was some concern about whether the problems the line was having last week were related to the line or to Grex's equipment. I really hope we don't have to impose any unnecessary rules here.
Well, one of the members of rehab was worried that Grex needed to formalize these types of transactions so that things like 501c3 wouldn't be compromised by staffers just taking things and making up their own rules. I've loaned Grex things from work on occasion, too.
I don't have a problem with it. I'm also on the rehab comittee. I guess I'm not sure what the complaint was, even though I heard it the first time.
I'm the grouch. The issue here is a *very* small version of really serious
problems that occur when public servants divert public resources to
private use. For example, the current flap over police guns in Coleman
Young's private collection. Since it is actually more the principle at
issue here rather than the amount of money, even small borrowings can be
looked upon as unethical. After all, the fundamental ethic of non-profit
(and especially charitable tax-exempt) orgnizations is that
ARTICLE 6
The following restrictions will apply to the operations of
the Corporation:
1. No part of the net earnings of the Corporation shall
inure to the benefit of, or be distributed to its members,
trustees, officers or other private persons, except that the
Corporation shall be authorized and empowered to pay
reasonable compensation for services rendered and to make
payments and distributions in furtherance of the purposes set
forth in Article II.
Of course, any non-profit is able to buy and sell goods. But again it
should not show favoritism to anyone, especially not those involved in its
governance. So, if Grex wants to have its collection of old equipment for
sale, they should be for sale to anyone. If Grex has anything for sale, it
should be priced and advertised as available. The same goes for loaning
equipment - if anything can be borrowed for private use, it should be
borrowable by anyone.
I realize that a lot of people do not attach much importance to taking or
borrowing some things from their place of employment - in fact, there are
jokes about this: pencils, paper clips, paper, staplers (?), computers
(?!)....and certainly companies look with disfavor upon this, even if they
cannot control it too well. The control I do know about is that private
companies do allow some borrowing of some things for private use, so long
as this is no problem for operations, and Grex could allow this a a "perq"
for members, if it wanted. But it should be known what the "rules" are.
I think the reason Grex hasn't been pushing the old monitors and stuff like that which we would like to get some money for is that it hasn't seemed that anybody was interested in buying it. When we've tried to sell it for a dollar, there haven't been any takers. I don't think we've tried to hide that we have the stuff. I don't think we have refused to sell stuff like that to people who are not on the staff or on the board. That doesn't mean that me being comfortable with the idea of Scott borrowing or renting a terminal server for testing purposes means I would want to let just anybody do that. I don't think that's a perk we should offer to members, but for staff people it does seem reasonable, as long as it doesn't negatively impact Grex's operations. Given the amount of stuff Grex has borrowed from various staff people and their employers over the years, I don't think we can afford to be overly stiff and bureaucratic about things like this.
I also don't think we should get all constipated over this. If someone wants to *buy* a piece of our equipment, I suggest that s/he post an item in Agora saying "I would like to buy the chrono-synclastic infundibulator for $XXX. Would anyone like to offer more for it?" Then wait a week or so, and if no higher bids are received, the purchaser pays aruba and that's that. If someone wants to *borrow* a piece of equipment for a short time, and the equipment would still be Grex property, I suggest that teh person send mail to our fearless President asking permission. After all, making such high-level executive decisions is what the President is for! 8-)
Or better yet, Grex could auction the stuff off.
The fact that members have donated and loaned Grex a lot of stuff over the years does not imply that the reverse is ethical. A member has complete personal responsibility to donate or loan things. But where does that responsibility lie in Grex? David's suggestions are reasonable. I would like in addition that there is an inventory of "loose items" that people can make a bid for, which can be consulted. There should also be a decision if that inventory is open to everyone or just to members (as a 'perq'). Grex should have an inventory of its property anyway (eventually for insurance or tax purposes, perhaps). The borrowing of stuff is a little different. It is one thing to loan something to an indivdual for a non-profit purpose (like Grex's own), or for a profit making purpose. Those doing the latter should be willing to pay for the use, just as Grex would have to pay to borrow equipment from another business (unless they want to donate the loan). But, can Grex *donate* the loan of equipment to a for-profit enterprise? Doesn't sound right. It also seems reasonable to me that, if there is equipment that can be borrowed by individuals - or only by members (a 'perq') - it should be in an inventory that is available to all. From whence would come such a privilege for a subgroup of members - as an exchange 'perq' for their donated time? I do know what I am talking about as I donate much time, money and material in other non-profits, but would not even think of expecting to buy anything from them that is not openly offered for sale, or borrow anything unless that privilege is open.
If something belonging to the corporation has a realistic market
value, then I would fully concur with rcurl's concerns about its
loan or use.
However, I believe it is well within reason for Grex staffers to
make use of what is essentially valueless (though not useless)
junk which nobody has found the time or made the effort to remove
from Grex's inventory. So long as Grex's operation is not affected
or threatened by these occurences, I think the ethical implications
of this issue are of such miniscule scale as to be unworthy of
consideration.
So, you believe that this is a 'perq' that should be restricted to staff?
I dont think it's a perq. It only has value for the small number of people on Grex who can actually make use of that funky, antique stuff, and make it function. In that the equipment has basically no fair-market value I don't want to restrict those folks on staff who *can* make use of it from using it. Why accumulate worthless, but not useless stuff, if you aren'te going to make best use of it? It's not as if they are depreciating assets, or spending money. Since this has no actual impact on Grex's balance sheet or cash flow, I don't see what the issue is. They are not using up any resources. In fact, if a staff member wants to buy the stuff, they are actually offering to *add* value to Grex.
We might get a better price for it if it is auctioned on-line, as has been suggested. Old computer stuff has value to many more people than Grex staff - have you ever been to a computer rummage sale? EVERYTHING has "fair market value". I also oppose "accumulating" it - make it available (if it is not being held for something useful) for sale, or for donation to "needy" users. And, I agree with adding value to Grex - but who can do that is not restricted to staff.
I have real problems with having open borrowing. I know and trust scott. Not because he's staff, but because I know him well. I don't know the overwhelming majority of people on grex. So, I have no problem with Scott borrowing something, but I do have a problem with just saying "Here is a list of stuff that can be borrowed."
That means setting up (perhaps implicitly) a list of those "OK" to borrow things. Hence, a staff (and board?) 'perq'? Actually, I'm not strongly opposed to that - but it should be an established principle, rather than an under-the-table activity. What I would question is borrowing things for commercial use (or use on behalf of a for-profit company).
Which is what my use of the spare terminal server would be, a use for a commercial company. But what if Grex were paid a fair rent for use of the device?
This sounds like a tempest in a teacup to me. I think if we need to make it "an established principle", then so be it. But the staff of Grex has donated much, much more to Grex than the short-term loan of antiquated equipment can ever repay. If borrowing something that Grex isn't using anyway can make the other things they do easier (and maybe free up some of their already overburdened time) I say they ought to have that perq.
I think that in this case, the rigid adherence to principle is an unnecessary burden. If a for-profit operation is making use of even the most ancient junk Grex has, then I'm all in favour of Grex receiving some nominal rental fee for it. My primary feeling about this is based on the fact that those in whose hands the operation and maintenance of Grex rests may benefit in such a way as to benefit Grex from activities in which they make use of this equipment, even if not directly connected to Grex's operation. Since it costs Grex nothing for this stuff to be used, and there is potential benefit, even if it is a small potential, I see no problem with allowing staff free and unfettered use of Grex's junk collection. calling it a 'perq' suggests that it is a benefit to the user alone. I don't think that is the case, and in any case, the benefit to anyone is small. In the event that someone wants to own a piece of the aforementioned junk collection, I think it fair if the intending person posts an item in agora or coop stating their desire and the price they wish to pay. If in a week, there is no other user expressing a desire accompanied by a greater bid, or no objection based on Grex's need of the equipment, then call it sold.
That at least would be a fair way to find out there is purchasable junk, if no one wants to do an inventory. Re #16: you have again brought up "repaying" volunteers for their time and personal contributions. When I volunteer I do not expect a repayment - except "appreciation". But repayment in tangible ways goes against the very principle of volunteerism, not to mention running into issues of compensating volunteers with more than "minor" benefits (ala IRS regulations).
Scott, until people can agree on this stuff, would you like to borrow any monitors from Jim? He is not a non-profit corporation, and has access to quite a lot of antique stuff. Same goes for any other staff member that we know personally.
Thanks, Keesan. I'm beginning to think I should just find the monitor elsewhere. Probably we should see if anything gets resolved at the Board meeting Wednesday.
It seems to me there ought to be some procedure in place for borrowing and/or selling Grex's equipment and resources. Someone should be in charge of stuff, and people who want to take/borrow/buy stuff should record it with someone and get permission from some authority. I understand the assumption of trust for certain people here, and that's a good thing, but mistakes can happen. Someone can forget he borrowed something, someone can forget they got paid for something, it's even possible that trust has been given too soon. Accusations have flown for years about equipment that may have come up missing from Arbornet's office. A little record keeping, and a path of authority, seems reasonable. At the very least, if X took something that Y thought would be there, then Y can know whom to contact to get it back or whatever.
At Kiwanis, we sell monochrome composite monitors for $5, TTL for $10, color composite and CGA are $30. By the way, there are bulk prices on these things (if you buy 10 or more they are half or one quarter price). EGAs $40, VGA monochrome $50, VGA color $60. They are of course cheaper if you buy a computer with them (a working 2-floppy 8088 with monitor and keyboard is $25, etc.) Rummage sale prices are a lot lower. This stuff has been checked out. I am willing to set people up and provide support on one of these computers, if they will join grex as paying members for 6 months. I have things set up so you only have to turn on the machine and it tells you whether you have e-mail. If anybody knows anybody non computer literate who wants to join grex, send them to me at Kiwanis. Scott, what sort of monitor did you need? I have a fairly complete collection at home, too, that you can just borrow free.
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I am not asking to apply "bureacratic rules". I am asking that no individuals have "special access" - that any such goods be available to all if to anyone. Post an offer to sell that monitor to the highest bidder - maybe Scott could get it for less than $10 (or, if we are lucky, for more). Let's distinguish borrowing and buying - and also between non-profits (like neighbors) and with for-profits. The local hardware store will not participate in that neighborly exchange you described.
I have no objection to knowledgeable staff borrowing grex equipment (the more useful stuff, not the worthless monitors) but think the average member should not be allowed access to it because the average member, if anything like me, could damage the equipment and the member. Would somebody be willing to classify grex's equipment into 1. stuff useful to grex that can be borrowed by people who have used it already, and their employers if stuff has been borrwed from their employers and 2. stuff of no use to grex, that people can offer to buy, and if nobody bids higher within three days it is theirs? The stuff in the second category could be posted in classifieds and maybe grex could actually get rid of some of it before it is totally obsolete. WOuld it be a very long list?
i'm all in favor of staff doing whatever they please with whatever grex has, while we spend the rest of eternity discussing policy initiatives to cover such activities.
You're thinking of grex as a funky club of enthusiasts with no responsibilities, personally or financially. That's partly true, but not enough to really avoid thinking about legal, financial and ethical responsibilities.
I have to agree with Rane in principle. As a non-profit, we do have to be careful about "donating" things to for-profit organizations. It's literally illegal. If we sell things, we need to have some reason for believing we are getting fair market value for them. There should be some procedure. Something like what Dave suggested would be fine. Do just what Scott did - post something on line saying you want to buy item X for price Y. If nobody complains that that is too low a price, then we can reasonably assume it is at or above market value, so we can sell it. I think that has been established for the monitor that Scott wanted. This still leaves the problem that only a few people know what old junk Grex has, so only they can try to buy it. I've been wanting to assemble and post an inventory for quite some time now, but I keep finding more interesting projects. The loan is a bit more difficult problem. I don't know what the market value of a lease on a terminal server is. Scott's company has loaned us equipment in the past, and if it had been done on an explicit "we'll loan you this if you'll loan us that" basis, then I think it would be OK. I certainly do *not* want to establish a policy of loaning our spares out to whomever might want them. Much as I'd like to help out in a small way a company that has been helpful to us, the fact that we are non-profit and they are for-profit limits the kinds of informal exchanging of assets that we can do. I think we'd have to charge a nominal fee to rent the terminal server.
What Jan said. IMHO loans to other than profit-making enterprises should be in the hands of the staff. If someone wants to borrow something, staff should have "written" noticeof when it is being taken, by whom, where (at least which town), and when its return is anticipated. That someone should also be known to staff, and there should be some consensus that it is OK for said person to be entrusted with Grex property. Do we need anything more formal? Oh, and notice of purchasing a Grex junk item should, IMHO, be in Agor _and_ Coop (er, Agora). In Agora for widest distribution, in coop for those of us who might care, but don't have the time or energy to deal with the mob of users and plethora of itmes and responses there. :-)
You have several choices: