In the past the Grex board meetings have been held in the ITI cafeteria during most of the year, and in the Michigan Union food court during the summer. Our former contact person at ITI has left there, and the new people say that we can only continue to meet there if an ITI employee is present throughout the meeting. So we may need to find a new place to hold board meetings. We'd like board meetings to be in an easily accessible place that new people would feel comfortable dropping in to. The Michigan Union has been better this way than ITI, but except in the summer, it tends to be too noisy to hold a meeting in. Most people feel that a private home would not be as good a place for a public meeting. Ideas? Suggestions?105 responses total.
why not have it at somebody's house...a different board member can host each month's meeting so nobody is terribly inconvenienced.
...except those that have serious cat allergies. And also those who wouldn't feel comfortable going to a house instead of a public place.
I'd hope we could *avoid* using the Michigan Union, even in the summer. Not only is it noisy, but holding a board meeting in a cafeteria is a bit bizarre. Hm. Has anyone checked out one of the public meeting rooms at the AA District Library? Or at the County Library on Hogback?
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There's also the point that at a public place people feel more free to drop by when they're free and leave when they need to. At someone's home they might feel that arriving late or leaving early would be disruptive and choose to stay away if they can't make the whole meeting.
I'm willing to arrange iti space, but the problem i'm going to have in the future (and even more) is that I may not always be able to be there, and ITI doesn't like that much.
Check with Holidays on W Stadium. The owners are nice people to deal with. The wife is Sofia the tailor.
Re #5 & #4: balancing what Misti said, some people may feel awkward meeting in a restaurant if they're not planning to buy anything. That said, many restaurants are likely not to mind at all if most people in the group do so.
The main problem with meeting in a restaurant, IMO, is the noise.
Is the upstairs room at Zingerman's Next Door available? Grex used to meet there eons in the early 90's.
It would be fun to go there, one more time (for ols times sake) while we find some new spot, I'll say that.
**Noisy**
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the back room at the gypsy cafe is usually pretty quiet, unless there is a show going on... then there's the mars room at drake's. oops, guess not... did someone mention the possibility of a room at the library? perhaps at a university library?
I know that Briarwoord has meeting space, though I know nothing about what kind of arrangements would be involved. On the place side, it's a reasonable central location, it would be quiet and private, yet a public space, and no need to order food. On the downside we'd probably have to be done by the time the mall closed at 9 -- and while we often are, not always. Also there may be a charge.
The Gypsy Cafe should be looked into. My only problem with the back room is the really loud compressor of some kind. But they'll turn that off if you ask.
Yeah, I remember that session at Zingerman's. Incredible. Still, one last foodfest at Zing's...? (sigh, I know--it isn't practical) We should talk to Arnold Barr about county space perhaps. Also, the People's Food Coop has space downstairs. Would that make any sense Valerie? I don't know what their policies are.
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Is it _possible_ to use a conference room at the NEW Center even though the grex non-profit is not a tenant? I don't know the answer to this. Arborland Mall has a meeting room (downstairs) which may be more available (time, $) than Briarwood, and just as convenient. The Main library, YMCA or University sites are also good ideas. If it's not too far off the path, and _some_ people desire to have food available (or drink?), Banfields on Packard Rd, just east of Platt has a "back room" full of pinball machines and stuff (might be noisy...depends on the timeing) and they also have a sizable room downstairs which i think they use to rent out, but might make it available to a group such as grex since they are very neighborly and could get some sales of ROH or food to make it worth their while). (isn't there a lower level in that coffee shop on the corner of East U and South U, next to Ulrichs? Maybe that is available?)
The problem with Banfields is that it's often very noisy and always very smokey in the back room. (I know. I spend more time than I want to think about there these days.) Downstairs might be better, I don't know. Probably will have remants of smoke there, though.
NEW Center charges for conference room space unless you are a tenant there.
I was at the library yesterday, so I asked about meeting rooms. They have three, two on the 4th floor and the "multi-purpose" room in the basement. One of the ones on the 4th floor looks like it might be about the right size for us. However, the library closes at 9 each night, and I presume they'd kick us out then.
I haven't been to a board meeting recently. Do they tend to last more than 2 hours? If not, a 7pm starting time at the libary would work.
Please choose something within walking distance of downtown, rather that Arborland or Briarwood, so that non-drivers can attend. Would a weekend afternoon work if meetings run too late on weekday eves? Has anyone tried a church? They might charge $25 for two hours use, but this is a lot cheaper than a restaurant.
(I can't believe I spelled it "libary" in #23...)
Non-drivers can attend any meeting held within the city limits of Ann Arbor. The AATA runs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. When the line buses are not running, thye have a shared-cab sytem that costs $2.00 per person. It is called NightRide, and can be reached at 663 3888.
bus fumes make me sick, I would not go to Arborland. To take Nightride, if it has not changed, you have to wait outside for up to an hour, which could leave you alone in the dark and cold after a meeting ended.
If you ask around, you can likely find somebody willing to drive you back & forth. Nevertheless, nice as iti's cafeteria was, getting in the place always seems to be a bit chancy.
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People may feel that if they go to a restaurant, then they're obligated to order some food. (Indeed, the restaurant management may share this view.) For some people, this could be a deterrent to attending if the meeting is at a restaurant.
I've called Zingerman's and told them about us, that we're a non-profit doing good stuff for the community, and about our need for meeting space. I've told them we used to meet there but found it was often difficult when we shared the upstairs room with other customers. Mostly, I was asking if they offered a reduced fee-type setup for non-profits when she offered to let us use the space, on a reserved basis, without charge. They actually have two rooms up there and either would work for our size group. She seemed to think this wouldn't be a problem but is going to get final clearance and call me back. I told her the meetings were mostly on the third Wednesday of every month, 7:30 to about 10:00, and we expected less than 25 people, mostly. Is this all corrrect? If she gives us the go-ahead are we interested?
John slipped in. Zing's was told some folks ordered food and/or drink, but certainly not everyone.
Public schools will rent out rooms, don't know the times or prices, but I think it was pretty cheap weekday eves. the Commmunity Center on Main? SHould I bother calling them, or is it to be ZIngerman's?
Re #31: If we can have the space reserved without charge, that sounds terrific!
Sounded terrific. ;-( Zing's will reserve us space, without charge, understanding many won't buy any food or drink. But they close Next Door at 9:00 and we'd need to be done by then. There is no way our group could be in by 7:00 and out by 9:00. I didn't ask but would assume this offer would only be good Monday thru Thursday evenings, when that space is often closed anyhow. Sorry for the tease. ;-)
A school building might be attractive -- if we could get it free. I don't think GREX has the budget for even $25 a month for meeting space on an ongoing basis. (I'm sure we could cover it once in a while, though. I'm not familiar with the community center. What's that space like?
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in wednesday's ann arbor news, there was mention of a rather cave-like space underneath nick's antique market, which the owner rents out as banquet space. would it be possible to look into this as a possible meeting venue?
Where is Nick's Antique Market?
is this the former lohr's on ashley next to the blind pig and stollhaus?
Under stollhaus.
How many chairs minimum are required for a meeting space?
I'd say 15 minimum, but 25 would be better.
How about a place like a pondarosa? you can always just a coffee or a pop there. I should know :-) we used to have cb radio meetings there and they have back rooms..
Did anyone check out the County Library on Hogback?
Re #38: That is Celebration Cellars - my guess is that it would be amazingly expensive.
I was at the NEW Center this morning and checked out the availability
of their conference rooms for non-tenants. Good/bad news.
The good news is that it only costs $25 for a four-hour block
of time (which can run as late as 11:00 p.m.) in the smallest (west)
conference room. Plus a $25 refundable deposit.
The bad news is that these rooms are available *only* to
501(c)(3) non-tenants, which we are not. <sigh>
Say, wasn't someone writing Grex's 501(c)3 application?
As I said before, %25 a month is an additional expense that we just won't be able to manage long term unless we take donations at the door. (Which is, lest you wonder, a VERY BAD IDEA.)
Re 48 - Someone was writing Grex's 501c3 application in 1992, when I joined. >8(
Yes, I recall who it was, too. It seems to be a disease carried by form 1023.
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Lest anyone misunderstand me, I do *not* want Grex to become a 501(c)(3), even if the Board has to meet in the City Hall parking lot!
Waffles at ten paces in the parking lot - I think that Grex should definitely apply for 501(c)3 exemption as soon as possible (and it is called for in the Articles of Incorporation, though that is not why I strongly recommend it - it is the advantages to the corporation that are the reasons).
I agree, Rane. And one of these days we'll get it done...but as you say, form 1023 seems to carry a bad caseof intertia with it. (Maybe even worse than form 1040 -- that at least has deadlines.)
Re #53: Why wouldn't you want Grex to become 501(c)3, Dave?
Possibly a bad case of M-net?
Two reasons why I think 501(c)(3) is a bad idea for Grex. First, I don't believe that having that status would motivate people to donate stuff in order to get the tax deduction. I base this belief on M-Net's experience. We have had a bunch of donations, but only rarely has anyone asked for a receipt to furnish the IRS. Second, Grex (like M-Net) would not be a "conventional" 501(c)(3). We don't provide food to the homeless. Instead, we provide computer services to the "computer have-nots". Even if the IRS granted us this status, we would leave ourselves open both to political attacks by twits, and to endless tail-chasing exercises as we tried to interpret the extremely vague and bizarre IRS rules. So I don't think the game is worth the candle.
Doesn't m-net always send an acknowledgement to donors? If not, no wonder there isn't much interest in donating! This should be always be done. There are many charitable 501(c)3 organizations that do not service the poor. The criterion is essentially that the organization provide a service that government might otherwise could or has to provide for the public good. I have never heard of charitable organizations that are not human-services providers being attacked "by twits". I am or have been an officer in at least six 501(c)3 exempt charitable non-profits, none of which served the poor or homeless etc, and in *none* of them did we ever encounter "endless tail-chasing exercises". In fact, the only time the status ever entered into our business, it was to our benefit (Adobe Computers just donated a copy of Photoshop to one of them - 501(c)3 status was required.) It does happen that some agencies may not look upon a non-human-services charitable organization as deserving of certain benefits. In another of my organizations, we were denied property tax exemption by a township because we weren't "a church or scout camp or something like that". We sued, and won in the Michigan tax court.
Sure, M-Net always thanks its donors. But few people ask for formal *receipts*.
i believe it is standard practice among 501(c)s org's to provide donors with receipts bearing the tax id number of the org and the amount of the donation which is deductible. i have received such from every 501(c)3 to which i have given, excepting m-net. i may not wish to take the additional steps to deduct a small donation, but certainly for anything over $100 it is worth my time. i am sure others feel similarly. m-net got into trouble over it's 501(c)3 because of the conviction of certain uninformed users that m-net was fraudulently accorded the status because it was not carrying out formal programs of education and outreach in addition to providing its basic service function. grex users tend not to quite so virulently pursue issues about which they are totally ignorant.
Dave's reason (1) is not a reason *not* to get 501(c)3. He isn't claiming they get fewer donations as a direct result of doing it. Dave's reason (2) I don't agree with. There is nothing in the rules about "conventional" and "non-conventional". There is a list of catagories of service that might qualify. I think we fit into them. The draft application I started writing describes accurately and completely what Grex has been doing for the last six years, which is pretty much what it intends to continue doing. If the government is willing to accept that as a qualifying 501(c)3 activity, then we certainly should have that status. If not, we'll get turned down and be no worse off than we are. I certainly agree that we should not be mutating our efforts to try to fit them into a 501(c)3 framework, but I don't believe that there is anything we are doing or want to do that does not fit that framework already.
Well...you *always* get turned down the first time. It is to test your mettle (or metal?). They will come back with a whole bunch of additional questions. This is how they test if an organization is serious and committed. Yes, the thank you letter should acknowledge the ammount of any monetary gift. It should *not* state a value for any in-kind (property) donation. If a monetary gift is more than $250 you must state in the acknowledgement letter that "no goods or services were provided in exchange for this gift" or words to that effect.
What Jan said, with one quibble. dpc's reason (1) is an argument that 501(c)3 status is really of little or not benefit; given that formally applying will be a fairly big PITA, that would count as a reason not to do it. I'd question whether Dave is correct on that one as well, though. I don't think the floodgates would be opened, or anything; but Grex operates on a shoestring. It's quite easily imaginable that some *one* piece of hardware might come our way (rather than someone else's) partly because someone wanted a tax writeoff, which would make all the IRS stuff worth while. Even failing that, even that "only rarely" that he allows might make a significant difference to us.
Making use of a 501(c)(3) designation takes some extra effort. Even having it requires some extra effort. Arbornet has never had anyone who was willing to apply for grants, contact corporations, and push to make good use of it's 501(c)(3) for the benefit of M-Net. Dan Napolitano (keats) applied for and got one $7500 grant that allowed Arbornet to take on a new project, but the project (the K-12 teacher network) never got the volunteer support it needed, and is now long since dead. Arbornet has been mired for years because Aaron Larson (aaron) has pushed to get the organization to comply with the various rules for funding and operating a 501(c)(3) designated corporation, and there's little interest on anyone's part to work at following those rules. There are a lot of rules. 30% of funding has to come from donations (not purchases of service such as memberships carrying extra perks), for example. Arbornet's operations are not strictly what the mission statement says they should be. I could go on and on, but you can go back and read old policy conferences on M-Net if you want, and get a better picture. Dave is expressing the doubt that the benefits are worth the numerous hurdles and requirements. I agree with him in that I wouldn't want to see Grex go through the problems M-Net has had in recent years. I think a 501(c)(3) is a great benefit to the right organization, but I'm not sure I think Grex is the right organization any more than M-Net was when it took that step. M-Net had some pressures at the time, with failing equipment and lack of funding, that Grex doesn't have. M-Net had to do something. Grex doesn't. It's doing just fine now. M-Net placed itself under another organization, with an existing (and elderly) charter and requirements. Grex can create it's own new 501(c)(3) charter, which may be enough to allow it to be more successful.
The Quaker residence also charges $25 for an evening, and I can check out some churches as well as public schools. I calculate that four new members would pay enough to cover this monthly charge, and we have probably found one (will know next Tuesday, he promised to pay grex a year's membership if the modem we plan to install gets him online). This is 25 cents/month/member. SHould I bother checking out pay-for-use places or not? Most don't care about your tax status. Does anyone have connection with the U of M or the student dormitories - do they offer free use of facilities?
Commie High closes at 9 and is booked solid. (Did not check other schools). The Ann Arbor Community Center on N. Main is renovating for a few months but does rent out rooms. Several churches did not answer (but St. Andrews would probably charge $25-40). First Baptist has several rooms available on the fourth Wed. (other days were all taken) and is open until 10:00. They can set up chairs and tables. The fee depends on several factors but is probably somewhere around $25, we would have to come in a fill out an application form. (They also host 12-step programs and an Interfaith Council for Peace and Justice meeting and are very centrally located.)
Re #64: dues to a 501(c)3 organization are donations (tax deductible) and it is permitted for members to receive some benefits of membership that further the objectives of the organization (recent changes in regulations are useful). There is no burden in Grex meeting the 1/3 rule and all the other rules, and there are some excellent manual for non-profits to assist (which are much clearer than the IRS regulations themselves). It's a win-win thing to do.
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This was for 4th Wed, and I thought the whole argument about tax status arose with reference to paying $25 to use the NEW center. I'll keep thinking.
Long ago I promised Grex a $100 donation, no strings attached aside from being able to deduct it off of my taxes. The offer is still open. Therefore, I am quite certain that it is costing Grex money not to be a 501(C)(3), although I am saving some (less than Grex is losing though). I am fully convinced that we qualify, and that there is no good reason to be a 501(C)(3).
You mean, "no good reason *not* to be a 501(c)3," right?
Is your pledge intended to push Grex to becoming a 501(c)(3), Steve, or do you just strongly believe you deserve a tax break for donating to a non-profit? I'm just trying to understand the motivation here.
When one donates money, one donates money. If one is in the 20% tax bracket, donating $100 costs you only $80, but you have still donated a net $80. The only effect of what you call a "tax break" is a gift to the recipient of federal funds equal to 25% of your personal donation, because a worthwhile public service is being supported. I would be more likely to donate to Grex if it had a 501(c)3 exemption because of the leverage this would provide for my donation. For Grex to not accept leveraging donations made to it is not wise financial planning.
Yes I meant "no good reason *not* to be a 501(c)3,". It is not a question of my deserving a tax break. I donate to causes because I believe in them. I became a Grex member for that reason. I believe that my $60/year should be tax deductible, not because I deserve anything, but because Grex does. It leverages my donation. The way Grex spends my donations compares favorably to the way money I donate to many tax-deductible organizations is spent. $60 is more than I donate to *any* other non-deductible organization, but far far less than my donations to deductible ones. $60 is about as far as I want to go without tax deductibility. I also donate at a low level to a few other non-tax-deductible organizations, but none of them are like Grex in almost any way. I made my offer in attempt to push grex to get a 501(c)3. I make no apology for that. It seems that the state government is also making it profitable for grex to pursue that route, and has even outbid me. (See the state tax questions elsewhere). While I don't plan on calling or raising that amount, my $100 offer stands, to be added to the contributions others may make.
I didn't mean to challenge or offend you, Steve, I just wondered as to the reasons.
See? Another tail-chasing, negative argument about 501(c)(3) status! Am I clairvoyant, or what? 8-)
The donations are only tax-deductible if you itemize, and to itemize normally means that you have to have one or more of: high mortgage payments, high property tax, high state taxes. Many of us would still get no tax credit for a donation, except that the state gives up to $100 off for dontaions to a library or university. Does Grex qualify for state credit somehow?
No, Grex would not qualify, as it is not associated with a library or university (or community foundation). Grex could, however, create an endowment fund with a community foundations and then donations to that would qualify for the state tax credit. It is true that the tax-deductibility is only useful to an individual if they itemize, but it is *very* useful to the organization because big donors also usually itemize.
Jan, how about you and I set a date to get together and work on the 501(c)3 paperwork. I'll bring over all Grex's financial records, and we can get that part done. I suggest sometime later this month; I should be ready for a full day out in about 2 weeks. What do you say?
I say OK. My schedule is flexible. I think before I last pooped out on this I had drafts of all the more challenging written parts of the document. That means that most of what is left to do is (1) the financial data, and (2) getting it all printed up on the forms and sent out.
OK. I'll send you mail about arranging a time.
Okay, I feel as if i should try to pull a few strings and see about reserving at least the kids room at Zingerman's if need be. They are now open till 10p so that should be no problem... and as long as we get out of there by 10:30 things should be okay. (Its good to be the employee sometimes.)
Sounds wonderful, I will try to make it to the next meeting. I had no idea where the ITT cafeteria even was. Hopefully Zingerman's will get enough extra business as compensation. I always buy two bags of bread ends when I go in there (which is usually just to buy bread ends, they are good and cheap).
what do you look like then keesan??? Long haired good lookin guy? hehe Yeah, I think alot more people know Zing's location though parking does sucketh! If we keep the meetings from 7 till 10ish then we should be okay
You got one out of three right on the description. ZIngerman's is an ideal location for people who don't want parking, it is walkable.
That is true... how many board members and concerned grex living in walking distance is hte question. However, with the coming of summer, parking is getting better in the evenings, and Commie High Parking is free after 6p!
Normally we've been meeting in the MUG during summers. How do people feel about Zingermans? I think we used to meet there and had noise problems. I'd be willing to try it though.
hmmm... if its under 20 we could close the kids room...
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Hmmm - I'm all for keeping the noise down, but I'm afraid if we close the door it will deter people from joining the meeting if they arrive late, and will deter people from happening by, because it will be awkward to leave early. (I know when I'm contemplating trying a new social experience, the first thing I think about is how easy it will be to get away. :)) Of course, at ITI no one *does* happen by. But at the Michigan Union they do.
How about a big sign on the door saying come in, the door is only closed to keep down the noise levels?
Well, that would help. I'd be willing to try it, certainly. Maybe we could alternate between Zingermann's and the Union for the summer, to see which generates more random arrivals?
I agree with keesan, its not difficult to make a sign to put out there. And also, I think grex is relaxed enough that is someone is going to have to leave early it isn't going to be akward... And if we give directions to where the kids room is, people can still arrive late. The kids room is at Zingerman's Next Door, upstairs. I think you can usually fit between 10 to 20 people in there...
That's where we used to meet. I always found it hard to understand people (echoes & muzak, I think) even when there weren't other people there talking. When there were people with kids, or one birthday-party group, it became impossible for me to follow the discussion. (I have lots of trouble in general separating voices from background, so I'm probably worse off than most everyone else in this regard. And I'm unlikely to be there, in any case. So please understand that I'm mentioning this, not voting against Z's or something like that.)
Zings is great for me, seeing as it's only 2 blocks from where I live... :)
I am assuming that most Grexers live near downtown. And if the meetings keep starting at about 7p then parking should be no problem at all. Commie high is free after 6p... luckily!
(Actually, most Grexers probably live outside the American midwest...)
I meant most *local* grexers =)
Even of them, most probably do not live near downtown.
OK, who wants to take Mark's address list of Grexers, and spend a day with Mapquest finding lat/long coordinates for all the grexers, and tell us where the geometric center of grex gravity is?
i have a feeling it would be beneath the crust of the earth...
(You'd have to take that into account, seeing as we can't move free under the surface, and find the "center of gravity" on the surface.)
well! nobody specified a *non-euclidean* calculation! Harrumph!
Of course it's a non-euclidian calculation. We live on a non-euclidian surface, and most of the "distances" we use are non-euclidian. :)
You have several choices: