Grex Coop10 Conference

Item 71: 1998 Cyberspace Communications Officers

Entered by aruba on Mon Jan 12 03:31:51 1998:

At the next board meeting, the board needs to elect officers for 1998.
The 1997 officers were:

        Chair/President         valerie
        Secretary               mta
        Treasurer               aruba

This item is for discussion of, and hopefully volunteering for, the
officer positions.
46 responses total.

#1 of 46 by aruba on Mon Jan 12 03:32:11 1998:

I volunteer to be treasurer for another year.


#2 of 46 by jared on Mon Jan 12 03:58:00 1998:

I think that Mark is doing an excellent job as Treasurer.


#3 of 46 by snowth on Mon Jan 12 04:13:46 1998:

Hey there. I know that mta was having some doubts about doing secretary this
year.. Hmm. If nobody wants it, I may be able to take over... Just thought
I'd metion it as a vague possiblity. I'll figure out if this works and get
back to you. (and of course if anybody really really wants the post, I
wouldn't want ot stand in your way, but that's not the way it sounds from what
I've been reading...)


#4 of 46 by scg on Mon Jan 12 05:10:41 1998:

Do the bylaws say the secretary has to be a board member?  The secretary
always has been in the past, but if a non-board member wants to do it that
sounds good to me.


#5 of 46 by aruba on Mon Jan 12 07:57:53 1998:

Re #2: Well thank you, Jared, that's nice of you to say.

I'm afraid the bylaws are pretty clear:  Article 3, paragraph a says:

   The Board of Directors (BOD) shall consist of seven members
   of Grex, and shall include a chairperson, a secretary, and a
   treasurer.

So I believe officers must be on the board.  (Sorry, Tricia!)


#6 of 46 by valerie on Mon Jan 12 15:22:15 1998:

This response has been erased.



#7 of 46 by richard on Mon Jan 12 17:41:37 1998:

I think Aruba should volunteer to double as Secretary...he does
such a prompt jub of filing the financial reports, Im sure he'd
post the minutes  just as well....I guess since its an even numbered
year Valerie isnt runing for president?


#8 of 46 by mdw on Mon Jan 12 18:45:58 1998:

I think it would certainly be an option to have both an official
secretary, and Tricia actually taking notes.  The secretary is
"responsible" for seeing that the note taking process happens, but that
doesn't mean they need to do all the work personally.  (It's also an
option for the chairperson to delegate running a meeting, or for the
treasurer to delegate check collecting, etc.  As long as the right thing
happens, that's what counts.)


#9 of 46 by aruba on Mon Jan 12 21:02:16 1998:

Well, I'd be willing to be secretary if no one else wants it, but I think it
would be best if the officers are 3 distinct people.

I guess I agree with Marcus that the official secretary need not be the person
who takes the notes.  But I think we should avoid the situation where one
person takes notes and another types them in, since that's just asking for
misinterpretations.


#10 of 46 by scott on Mon Jan 12 21:51:46 1998:

I'd be willing to be secretary.


#11 of 46 by richard on Tue Jan 13 00:22:11 1998:

well since its an even numbered year, maybe Scott should be president 
and Valerie should be secretary?


#12 of 46 by richard on Tue Jan 13 00:23:12 1998:

This response has been erased.



#13 of 46 by lilmo on Tue Jan 13 02:52:40 1998:

Would the other board members care to state whether they would be willing
and/or eager to take on the duties of sec'y or chair?


#14 of 46 by cmcgee on Tue Jan 13 06:08:52 1998:

It is common for organizations to have the officer "secretary", and to have
that person responsible for making sure that all legal records of the
organization are maintained as required by law, and by the organization's
bylaws.  It is also common for another person to take the notes, format them
into the (legally) required format (hard copy, electronic files, etc) and
post/preserve them in the  appropriate place.  The secretary just has to be
conciencious (sp?) about seeing that these things have been done.  


#15 of 46 by rcurl on Tue Jan 13 08:01:48 1998:

A recording secretary and a corporate secretary. I have seen this function
well in one volunteer organization, but it is very hard to find a
recording secretary that has no official position on the board. Uusually
every volunteer position has to return *some* feeling of significance, and
the job of recording secretary usually provides few.  One thing that helps
is to make it a official, board appointed, position. Then at least if grex
gets 501(c)3 exemption, personal out-of-pocket and travel expenses can be
deducted officially. 



#16 of 46 by dpc on Tue Jan 13 14:52:15 1998:

I've also been quite impressed with aruba's work as Treasurer.


#17 of 46 by mary on Tue Jan 13 15:14:14 1998:

Yep, me too.  I also think Scott would do a find job
as Secretary.


#18 of 46 by mary on Tue Jan 13 15:21:36 1998:

Too, I think it's more important to get the right person
as Secretary and Treasurer than as President.  So I'd rather
see emphasis put on getting these two positions filled and
then worry about a good-fit President.


#19 of 46 by richard on Wed Jan 14 00:02:03 1998:

well Jan, have youu ever nbeen president before?  Jan should be
1998'
s big kahuna...


#20 of 46 by janc on Wed Jan 14 02:21:15 1998:

I don't see that it makes a lot of sense to have both a recording secretary
and a corporate secretary, since there wouldn't be much of anything for the
corporate secretary to do.  Only reason to do it is if we absolutely cannot
find a board member to act as secretary.

I'm not enthusiastic about being president.  I'd be willing to do it if I
could get rid of the shopkeeper job.  I really am not ready to take on more
Grex responsibility than I've got.

I'd be willing to be secretary, though again, I'd rather not.


#21 of 46 by aruba on Wed Jan 14 07:09:25 1998:

Re #16,17:  Thanks, Dave and Mary.  I really appreciate the support.


#22 of 46 by rcurl on Wed Jan 14 07:45:57 1998:

A corporate secretary keeps the corporate records, often the membership
records, communicates on behalf of the corporation, etc. However in some
organizations these duties are otherwise delegated or passed around.
Actually, it is rather a pain for a corporate secretary to be *expected*
to take the minutes - the corporate secretary is an officer of the
corporation, not just a "clerk". But, of course, if the corporate secretary
wants to....


#23 of 46 by aruba on Wed Jan 14 08:40:59 1998:

In our case it's the treasurer who maintains the membership records, and if
we need to send out mail, it's whoever gets around to it.  So I don't know
that there'd be much for the corporate secretary to do, if (s)he didn't take
the minutes.


#24 of 46 by remmers on Wed Jan 14 12:00:11 1998:

        I'm glad to see that the officer slate is getting some
        public discussion before the actual selections are made.
        In the past, this hasn't been done.

        Any of the volunteers (reluctant or otherwise) would do
        a good job, in my opinion.



#25 of 46 by dpc on Wed Jan 14 15:01:24 1998:

Well, in the past valerie has been PLAY (President for Life in
Alternate Years).  If she's elected for 1998 we'll need a new
acronym.   8-)


#26 of 46 by valerie on Wed Jan 14 18:28:00 1998:

This response has been erased.



#27 of 46 by mary on Wed Jan 14 19:44:32 1998:

Valerie has also done a wonderful job as President.  I've been
at meetings where she was able to keep people as focused as
necessary in a low-key way, without creating any tension or
a sense of formality.  Not an easy thing to do.  


#28 of 46 by richard on Thu Jan 15 00:15:05 1998:

actually, many orgqanizatiosn deliberately have a president who is
not on the board.  Theoretically, the president is there to run
the meetings and pound the gavel, but shouldnt have to vote unless
there is a tie or not enough regular board members to make quorum.

I suggest an amendment that would allow the board members to elect
whomever they choose as President, whether that person is on the board
or just a regular member.  Call it the "Valerie" amendment, because
this way Valerie can stay on as President in 1999 or as long as the
board wants her to.

And I guess "chairman of the board" or ceo is a more apt title than
president?


#29 of 46 by davel on Thu Jan 15 03:36:30 1998:

I'd want to check on (Michigan) corporate law before even considering such
an amendment.  I'm fairly sure that the officers must be on the board, by law;
in any case, I've never heard of a corporation in which this wasn't the case.
Admittedly my experience is fairly limited; but I'd be interested if you would
name (say) half a dozen of those "many" you casually cite, richard.


#30 of 46 by rcurl on Thu Jan 15 07:59:31 1998:

Anyone that chairs a board meeting must be a member of the board - otherwise
the board members can just ignore a non-board member. On the other hand,
the officers are "staff" and *not* on the board of most corporations - nor
can they vote, of course. The board always has a chair, even if that person
is not an officer, usually elected by the rest of the board. There are
many arrangements possible - but none like Richard proposes. 


#31 of 46 by richard on Thu Jan 15 18:04:26 1998:

rcurl, you misunderstood me...my suggestion would have the president
as a board member just not as an elected one, but rather appointed...
the president would be the eighth board member and would *onlly* vote
to break a tie or make quorum.  There would still be seven elected
board members, subject to the term limits and .etc, but the eighth
board member (the president) would always be board appointed and therefore
not subject to term limits.


#32 of 46 by albaugh on Thu Jan 15 18:10:12 1998:

Nope, can't do it.  The board meeting must be run by an elected board member,
to wit, the president.  Forget it, richard.


#33 of 46 by rcurl on Thu Jan 15 19:05:26 1998:

That's what the current bylaws say, but it would be possible to amend them
to have the board select officers and constitute the board to include the
officers. I am on the board of (and was president of)  a non-profit with
this arrangement. Members elect the "trustees", the "trustees" select the
officers, and the officers and trustees together constitute the "board" (I
am also currently the chair of the "trustees", for the purpose of electing
the officers). The articles of Grex would allow this (or something like
it), but the bylaws would have to be amended. This system has the
advantage of providing officer continuity apart from the electoral system. 



#34 of 46 by lilmo on Thu Jan 15 22:32:06 1998:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!  I do not object to any of the changes in
principle, but I don't see the *need* for any changes.  Retaining Valerie's
acronym is not, I think, a valid organizational objective.  :-)


#35 of 46 by richard on Fri Jan 16 00:07:08 1998:

#33...I like that idea...Grex could set it up to where the board
appoints a Chairman, Vice-Chariman and Executive Secretary, who wuold
comprise Grex's board of trustees.  The trustees would be conisdered
executive board officers and would not have voting privledges under
special circumstances.  

The trustees and the elected members of the board would together elect the
board officers for President, Secretary and Treasurer.

The Executive Secretary would be Grex's permanent record holder, and would
keep copies of all board minutes and financial paperwork.  Thus if the
secretary or treasurer lose paperwork, there is someone to back them up.

The Vice-Chairman would be the designee to become acting officer if either
the treasurer or secretary position becomes vacant between board meetings,
and would be empowered to be an acting board member for a meeting if the
regular board members cant make quorum.

The Chairman of the board of trustees would be grex's figurehead leader
and 


and would act as President if the President is not around.  

A 2/3 vote of the board of trustees would delay any board action and
require a new board vote.  

This idea allows for some good people to remain in official
grex capacities even when they cant run for the board anymore, and
allows people to be in place when vacancies and emergencies occur.


#36 of 46 by valerie on Fri Jan 16 00:09:03 1998:

This response has been erased.



#37 of 46 by richard on Fri Jan 16 00:20:26 1998:

But it *is* broke...there were lots of problems when Misti lost the
minutes...if there was a backup "executive secretary" that wouldnt
have been a big deal.  It is good security to have two or three
people in place as permanent officers in case anything happens.  Grex
*should* have a board of trustees (or it will end up like mnet
and go broke one day because not enough board members come to a meeting
to make quorum)

I dont like that "if it aint broke, dont fix it" analogy anyway...that
limplies that there is never a time when it is prudent to *improve*
something, even if it doesnt need fixing.  This is must a good idea.


#38 of 46 by scott on Fri Jan 16 00:51:17 1998:

Richard, I find it hard to see how your excessively complicated structure
would solve that problem.


#39 of 46 by cmcgee on Fri Jan 16 01:59:27 1998:

I will not be rude. I will not be rude. I will not be rude. I will not be
rude.


#40 of 46 by arthurp on Fri Jan 16 03:40:25 1998:

Richard.  Here you are promoting no term limits (in a strong way I'd say) and
just a short time ago you were crying about how no board member should be
elected twice or something like that.  That there should be significant turn
over, anyway.  I see here a very clear indicator that you are throwing out
ideas to incite heated discussions, not an indicator that you are trying to
help grex stay health as you so frequently proclaim.  I would very much
appreciate it if you would stop porting.  I'm not normally such an ass, but
you just drive me nuts with you blather.

And another thing!  This discussion is hereby stopped!  There will be NO
board!  NO president!  NO trustees!  I proclaim myself Dictator of Grex!  I
am even now marching over to the pumkin with all my guns to carry out my
military coup!  

Heh.  ;)


#41 of 46 by other on Fri Jan 16 06:46:23 1998:

even if you have a problem with "if it ain't broke don't fix it" the primary
rule should be "keep it simple."  grex is really not a large organization,
despite the several thousands of users, and the management of the organization
is not a complicated endeavour, even if the management of the equipment is.
the absolute last thing we should be advocating is the development of a
bureaucratic morass of a management structure to manage a very basic
organization.  that is what is known as "having one's head up one's ass."

so what if an occasional board meeting's minutes are misplaced, or not posted.
anything of impact is posted anyway, and usually the minutes can be
reconstructed.  i'm not saying we shouldn't be conscientious about our
proceedings, i'm just saying that we haven't got *so* much at stake that we
can't tolerate an occasional mistake (depending on the nature of the mistake.)

we simply do not *need* any more complex a structure than we have.  we just
have to make sure that the people we elect to give responsibility to are both
competent and caring enough to follow through.


#42 of 46 by dpc on Fri Jan 16 15:31:01 1998:

I agree with other.  The only problem we have is that the outgoing secretary
couldn't take or hold onto the minutes.  That's a "people problem," not
a structural problem.


#43 of 46 by rcurl on Fri Jan 16 18:40:29 1998:

I certainly did not recognize the structure I described in #33 when
it got imported into #35! Part of this is that there are moderately well
established meanings for different office designations. For example,
an Executive Director is almost always an employee hired by the board
to manage an organization (there is a national association of Executive
Directors, and the job description is pretty well defined). "Trustees"
is usually another name for "directors". Officers together usually
constitute an "executive board", etc. But regardless of all this...I'm
inclined to agree that Grex is small enough to stumble along as it
has in the past. When more money and more responsibilities are involved
it is advisable to separate the oversight and policy (board) roles and
the operations and management (officer) roles - but not just to get the
minutes done.


#44 of 46 by davel on Sat Jan 17 02:48:26 1998:

What Colleen said.  (I frequently find myself chanting that mantra when
richard gets going.)
<sigh>


#45 of 46 by mta on Tue Jan 20 16:38:55 1998:

The current secretary had no problem taking or holding on to minutes, in
general.  Finding the time to post them was the problem.

Just for the record.


#46 of 46 by lilmo on Thu Jan 22 22:23:44 1998:

Re #45:  That was my impression.  I got confused at #42.


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