I'm afraid I have some bad news about our ISDN costs. Back in July, STeve spoke with our Ameritech representative Ken Kiernan about how much ISDN service would cost us. We needed two 128K ISDN installations - one at the pumpkin and one at the other end (at the time we thought that would be Jared's apartment, but it turned out to be Dorian's). Ken quoted STeve a price of about $25.17 per line per month and $42 per line for installation. At the July board meeting we authorized $200 for installation and $60 per month for ongoing costs. (That was for both lines, and we were allowing a bit of cushion. See resp:coop,29,0 for the allocation motion.) When STeve ordered the lines on July 31, he announced that he had made an error when reporting the installation costs (see resp:coop,21,74), but that the monthly costs would be about $25 per line. We all agreed to go ahead with things. In September the phone bill showed a charge of $317 for installation of 2 ISDN lines, and our monthly bill went up by $54.45. The installation charge seemed high, and STeve started to work on Ken about it, but otherwise things seemed fine. Our ISDN lines were up and running in September. The October bill showed no change in our service. The November bill, however, showed *another* charge of $317 for installation of two lines. I figured that, as usual, Ameritech had screwed up, and I gave the bills to STeve so he could harass them about it. Then the December bill came and I noticed that the "Monthly Service Charge" had gone up $54.45 between October and December, just as it had between August and October. After mentioning it to the Board, last week I called Ameritech about it. (It looked to me like they had raised the rates on us, and I thought that they weren't allowed to do that under the terms of our Centrex contract.) I spoke with a woman named Shirley at Ameritech Small Business Services. She seemed to know what she was talking about, and she gave me some bad news I really wasn't expecting: both charges are right. Apparently the September charge was for installation of one end of the ISDN line, and the November charge was for the other. The reason they were billed to us two months apart is not clear, but Shirley thought that was just some quirk of the accounting system. But the result was that we were lulled into thinking we had finished paying when we hadn't. The reason both installation charges were for two lines is that each 128K line is considered 2 lines by the phone company. Lots of you know more about ISDN than I do and can say why this is the case. But it sure made the bill confusing, and apparently it caused a miscommunication between STeve and Ken Kiernan over the price. It may still turn out that Shirley was wrong and Ameritech screwed up, but at the moment it looks like we, the Grex Board, screwed up and bought something which will cost us more than we thought it would - about $630 in installation costs and $108.90 per month in ongoing costs. Rereading this item just now, I realize that there are a lot of numbers and it may be quite confusing. But the bottom line is that we will be paying about 3 times as much for installation and twice as much in monthly charges than what we allocated last July. :(69 responses total.
I entered this item in order to let everyone know what's going on. I think it's a bit premature to panic and declare that we need to make changes in order to keep from "living beyond our means". I will be posting a year-end report very soon, and from that we ought to be able to make a realistic assessment of whether we need to make changes or not.
that adds up to roughly $1,300 a year for ISDN ($108.90 a month) Is ISDN worth that much? I dont notice that much difference in grex speed now than before the ISDN lines were connected. I suppose Grex has no choice though, because it has already spent the money for the installation. Didnt Grex have contracts from Ameritech stipulating the exact amounts for connections and service? Why was there any lack of communication where this much money was involved?
Richard, the money we spend on installation (about $630) is gone. The money we spent on the routers (Mark did not mention the figure above. I think it was a little under $1000) can be partially recovered if we sell the routers used. I disagree with your statement that we have no choice. We do have a choice between spending the $108.90 per month and using the better connection or selling the routers and dropping back to the slower connection. The performance benefits of the faster connection may be modest now, but once the faster server is on line, the POTS Internet link would be an even more severe bottleneck than it has been on the 260. I hope we choose to keep the ISDN link and raise the additional money to cover the difference from memberships. I guess it would take about 11 yearly memberships to cover the unexpected ongoing costs.
I would double check the prices with someone, anyone able to look up what it's tarrified for? If it's correct, pay it, keep it. The speed difference is incredible.
does ameritech have any competition for local phone service in this market? Maybe grex could have gotten a better ISDN offer from a smaller company.
Can you check up on that richard?
heh
Maybe M-Net's experience would be helpful. Ameritech installed a
128K ISDN line for us at the NEW Center on North Main, where the System
lives. They told Leeron Kopelman that the installation charge would
be $122. It turned out to be $200. We are paying that off in $50/mo
installments.
The monthly charge for this line varies between $35 and $50.
Even though we have a 2-channel 128K line, we have only been
able to get one channel to work regularly. People are still quibbling
about why. However, I do *not* think having only one channel working
is responsible for Ameritech billing us $35-$50/mo instead of the $110/mo
for 2 channels that Grex is paying.
It seems that Grex' situation, OTOH, is due to the fact that
Grex has two *separate* ISDN installations, one at the Pumpkin and one
at Dorians. That is, Grex has two installations, not two channels
per a single line.
Does this make sense?
I have the number of a person at the Michigan Public Service Comission, who I will be calling next monday. Right now, enough people have been out due to the holidays that it was basically useless talking to them. I am pissed as hell about this. In all the dealings I've done with Ameritech (for myself, Grex, and other companies) this is the most grand screwup I've yet seen. For a large business, the extra cost isn't that bad. For a little organization like Grex, it's not a small matter. However, Grex can deal with this. Remember that currently we're paying about $75 a month for the installation/moving costs when we went to the Pumpkin. We'll be done with the last payment sometime soon, and that $75 more than covers the exra cost of the ISDN line. Is ISDN worth it? Sure. I can now to things remotely while at work, rather than type a command and wait 20 seconds for the echo back. It makes Grex worth visiting, I think. We have to keep the ISDN line--in an era of ever increasing speeds, Grex has to keep up a little, else we'll just be passed by. I'll have more to say about this Monday evening.
Just to make life more interesting, grex has centrex - which may or may not make a difference regarding costs vs. m-net.
I talked with scg about this last night, and he seemed to think that $54.45
per line per month was *not* a reasonable rate, and that it ought to be more
like $35. FWIW Here's the breakdown of the $54.45, as it appears on the
September phone bill:
No Description Qty USOC Monthly
-- ----------- --- ---- -------
2 AETCP Offset 1 SCFXE $.02
3 Access Charge per FCC order 1 9ZR $4.55
5 ISDN CKT SWITCH DATA B CHAN 2 BSB6X $7.50
6 ISDN-Circuit Switched Data Ln 2 LTQ6X $7.50
7 2-Wire Loop Assoc WH 2B1Q Line 1 P2B $10.03
8 ISDN Centrex - National 1 ZNZ $9.85
------
$54.45
And here are the installation charges:
No Description Qty Cost
-- ----------- --- -------
4 Line Connection Charge 1 $42.00
9 Installment Charge 2 $50.00
10 Installment Charge 1 $225.00
-------
$317.00
(Not much info there, I realize.) Note that to make the monthly costs add
up, you have to multiply each price by the quantity column. That's not
true of the installation charges, however. (Don't ask me, I just typed it
in.)
The story on the November bill was the same, as I recall, but STeve has
that bill now so I can't check it.
We should check Ameritech's tarrifs on this, since I'm pretty sure that's not the right price. What we were told when we ordered the lines is in line with all the other ISDN pricing I've ever seen. Also, it's what we were told when we ordered the lines.
So, if I understood you right, Steve, the tarrif specifies what rate Ameritech must charge for our lines? Where do we get a copy of the tarrif?
The Michigan Public Service Commission should have the tarrifs. I can't find it on their web site (http://ermisweb.state.mi.us/mpsc/comm/), but their web site does have a phone number (517 334-6380), which is probably worth calling.
hehe. we used to run the ermisweb machine.
M-Net got *excellent* results when we asked the Michigan Public Service Commission to fix a similar Ameritech mistake last spring.
OK, I'll call Monday and ask for a copy of the tariff. Thanks Steve.
FWIW, someone whould prob talk to Ken, too.
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BTW in case anyone is wondering, I went ahead and paid the bill for what Ameritech said we owed. I know some of you, in my place, would have refused to pay until we were absolutely sure we weren't being screwed. I was only at the point where I thought it was a distinct possibility that it was our mistake, not Ameritech's. The thing is, I *really* don't like getting shutoff notices. Granted, we have gotten several and Ameritech has never followed through on the threat (usually because STeve got on their case when the notice came). But I worry that we might not get through to them in time, or something, or they might come at a time when no one is available to harass Ameritech. (In this particular case, my talk with Shirley was December 23rd, and I was headed out of town the next day. I was worried that a shutoff notice might come during the week I was gone and then be implemented before I got it and had time to alert STeve.)
Paying was a good decision here, aruba. It's *possible* that we might actually owe the billed amount. And if we win this argument, then the disputed amount will be deducted.
They aren't allowed to shut us off if the unpaid amount is in disupte. Unfortunately, they have much less of an incentive to pay attention to us now, because they already have the money.
It seems to me that Ameritech has done a number of things they're not "allowed" to do, usually through mistakes. I'd rather face them from our current position than have to explain to the users why I let things go so long that they would shut us off.
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Well, I called the Michigan Public Service Commission to ask for a copy of the tariff covering ISDN centrex lines. I spoke with a gentleman named Howard who politely cut off my question to say that MPSC only regulates basic phone service, and that includes neither ISDN nor centrex. Phone companies may charge whatever they like for those services, as long as they are consistent within a particular "rate group", which I gather means "geographic area". I told him that scg's company in metro Detroit seems to be getting different rates than us in Ann Arbor, and he said that we may very well be in different rate groups. :( So I called Shirley back to see if I could get anything out of her. She said that she had checked our rates and they were correct. She also said that our lines would have been cheaper if we hadn't put them on our centrex system, but she told me to call someone else to find out just how cheap (and I haven't done that yet). She thought $300/line for installation was about right too. We could switch our ISDN lines so they're not on our centrex, but we'll pay an installation charge if we do. She thought it might be about $100 per line, but she was pretty vague on that point. Sigh.
Hopefully Steve will get more out of them. I'm pretty sure MPSC is supposed to regulate a lot more than just basic phone service.
It may no longer be necessary to have ISDN lines in a Centrex system to avoid the per-minute charge for Business, Data calls. My department was told that Ameritech had abolished the per-minute charge -- sometime in fall '97? I am now making data ISDN calls for my networking installations at work -- non-centrex sites -- and no one has screamed yet about per-minute charges. One would have to do cost analysis to see if was worth pulling the ISDN lines out of the Centrex, and Ameritech seems to be intent on making it impossible to do such analysis. Perhaps future quotes from our telco should be in hard copy. It would be news to me if there were no tariff covering ISDN. It's possible that as part of telco deregulation Ameritech no longer need to file such a thing. What's really awful here is that Grex is smarter than most Ameritech customers.
The question is whether having employees who can't answer straightforward questions about rates is accident or policy. Bleah.
I suspect it's a result of a disorganized company having a lot of new business thrust upon it all at once, because of the explosion of telecommunications options in the past few years. I suspect their computer systems and management structure aren't up to the task, and on top of that a lot of their employees seem not to be very bright.
I've contacted the MPSC and am awaiting a fax from them indicating what the chanrges for Centrex ISDN service should be. I have a contact person now at MPSC and have registered this with them--not exactly a complaint, yet, but they now officially now that Cyberspace Communications in Ann Arbor is concerned with Ameritech charges for Centrex ISDN lines. I am expecting a fax sometime this afternoon.
The guy at the MPSC wasn't able to get the stuff together in time to send it to me. We're trying for Monday sometime.
if the MPSC wont resolve this, it sounds like grex could have a case to sue ameritech (it IS fraud if the contract promised one set of rates and the bills stated othere rates)
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Re #33: At least we know better for next time.
This is mostly unrelated to this item, but this is as good a place as any to post it: We got mail from MCI today saying that in March they are going to start charging us a $5 minimum fee, even if we make no long distance calls at all. Since we never make any LD calls, this would affect us and be an annoying waste of money. We were never sure how MCI got to be our long distance carrier in the first place, since a while back we asked that we have *no* long distance carrier specified on our lines. I called Shirley and she told me that while all of our regular phone lines have no LD carrier selected, our ISDN lines do, so that's the source of the problem. I asked her to change the ISDN LD carrier to "NONE", and she said she would, but that Ameritech charges a fee of (I think it was) 95 cents per line for having no long distance carrier on you ISDN line. Sigh. So we'll be paying (I think) $3.80 in charges unless we can find an LD carrier which has no minimum fee. What a pain. Anyone know which LD carrier we should switch to?
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then we should be justified in filing a complaint with the mpsc about mci hooking us up without authorization, correct?
How about ATT? I dont think I pay a minimum charge, but maybe businesses would.
Yes, ATT now charges a minimum of $5/mo for businesses (like mine). I changed my provider to Working Assets Long Distance, which doesn't charge a minimum. *But* the best thing is to get Ameritech to take all long-distance service off our ISDN line. Even *Ameritech* should realize this is a special-purpose line, since they sold it to us with that understanding. 8-)
Like I said, Dave, they'll set the LD carrier to "none", but in doing so they will charge us $.95 per month per line. Don't ask me why.
For the same reason that they charge extra, monthly, for tone dialing, even though having to maintain pulse capability costs them.
because they can get away with it?
Well, what do *you* think?
It's certainly worth complaining to the MPSC about. In the meantime, though, sounds like we should find do the research, find someone, & switch to them.
More bad news, I'm afraid: I just got the phone bill, and our monthly service charge is going up $.30 per line per month (on our regular dial-in lines). That means an extra $4.50 per month. I thought they couldn't do that to us because we had a centrex contract, but apparently they think otherwise. I'll call Shirley tomorrow.
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Yeah, I think that's a tax change, not an Ameritech change. The taxes probably aren't written into the contract. The large difference in ISDN costs is certainly worth pursuing. I wonder if chasing after a few dollars a month with the long distance thing is really worth the time it will take up.
Well, I'll call tomorrow to find out more info. The change is listed as "basic service", not taxes, FWIW.
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I always thought Ameritech reserved the right to change its charges any time it wanted. Does our Centrex contract have a fixed price in it?
Yes. We had to decide how long we wanted to commit to those prices.
Well, I didn't call today. I'll try to do it Monday.
<<ameriwreck reserves the right to insert two or more wires into your bank account and suck as hard as possible.>>
Ack. I called Shirley on Monday, but she was out. Since then I've been sick and haven't tried calling her back. I will try to do it RSN. STeve, did you find out anything else from MPSC?
I'm still dealing with them. sigh
Those of us safely out of the loop *really* appreciate the time, effort, and procrastination you are putting into these problems. :-)
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Glad to see Working Assets is in the running!
Thanks, Valerie. To clarify: the fee Ameritech charges for having no LD carrier applies only to our ISDN lines, not to our regular lines. At $.95 per line, I *think* that's 4 * $.95 = $3.80/month. So Sprint, MCI, and AT&T are not cheaper than having no long distance carrier at all. (Unless you're figuring in something I'm not.) I need to call Shirley and confirm that, though - but I was too sick all week. I'm mostly better now, so I'll try to do it on Monday. <sigh>
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Working Assets is not "partisan" because it is not a candidate for partisan public office and it is not a political party. This is just the kind of tail-chasing question that 501 (c)(3) status raises and why Grex should avoid it.
Valerie, it seems to me that the by-laws don't say we have to pay more for a service in order 8not* to support partisan companies. Heck, that would mean we couldn't serve Dominos pizza at board meetings because a part of that money would end up supporting the Word of God religious organization. (Not something I'd want to do ... but not, I think, forbidden by the by-laws.) Now sending some money directly to Planned Parenthood or the Word of God community *would* be a proiblem.
We would be paying Working Assets for service, and they would be spending money on political causes. Ameritech does a lot of lobbying too, so if we can't get service from Working Assets we can't get it from Ameritech either. If Working Assets' marketing people are willing to give us $10 for switching to them, we should take it. They knew when they made the offer that some people wouldn't make many, if any, long distance calls.
Thanks for calling Shirley, Valerie. I hadn't realized that the $.30 per line per month increase was due to lack of a long distance carrier; that means we can kill two birds with one stone by designating a carrier.
....adn that carrier is .......:?
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Just make sure that the fine print doesn't say, "Rates subject to change w/o notice," or some such! :-) .\
You have several choices: