Grex Coop10 Conference

Item 55: Grex Store Issues

Entered by janc on Thu Nov 27 19:40:44 1997:

We need to make some decisions about funding the "Grex Store".

The concept behind the store is to sell Grex insignia items as a way to raise
money for Cyberspace Communications.  They'd be offered through a web page
and whatever other way we can think of.

Rob Argy has come up with a nice design that we are using in our first run
of items (it'd probably be cool to introduce new designs from time to time).

Currently we have:

   - sweatshirts (screen printed)
   - t-shirts (screen printed)
   - mugs (photographically printed)
   - mousepads (photographically printed)

My understanding is that with the T-shirts and sweatshirts, we save money by
making larger orders, while the mugs and mousepads don't have quantity
discounts.  Even without quantity discounts, it's useful to order them in
slightly larger batches since it saves handling time.

Because of these factors, we should probably try to maintain an inventory of
various merchandise.

However, we obviously don't want all our money tied up in merchandise
inventory.  We certainly want to maintain some money in our back account for
emergencies and such like.

How should we determine the amount of money to invest this way?

Do people have other ideas on how to more effectively manage the store?

Are there volunteers to help manage the store?
78 responses total.

#1 of 78 by bruin on Thu Nov 27 20:15:34 1997:

I would be willing to volunteer to manage the store, especially from my home
if possible.


#2 of 78 by mta on Fri Nov 28 00:46:25 1997:

It seems to me that about 20% of our current unclaimed savings (that is, money
that won't be needed to pay a bill or finish an upgrade in the near future
might be a place to start.


#3 of 78 by steve on Fri Nov 28 01:09:55 1997:

   THat sounds about right to me.


#4 of 78 by mary on Fri Nov 28 03:46:00 1997:

I'd like to see the store be financially self-sustaining.  The general
fund could (has) gotten it started with a $750 initial "loan".  Did that
include the mousepads and mugs? 

What if that initial stocking fee was repaid to the general fund but the
profits kept in a store account.  This profit money would then be used for
future re-stocking purchases and only when the profit balance was
significantly healthy would any money be shifted into the general fund, if
at all.  I'd think we could simply view the store money as our advertising
money and be happy if it was self-sustaining. 

Until profits were sufficient to make another large purchase the Board may
wish to float another "loan" to the store.  Or the store could simply not
make another big "spec" order but rather conduct a special order event,
pre-paid.  But I'd really like to see the general fund kept out of this as
much as possible.  Too, when I speak of a special store account I don't
mean yet another bank account but a bookkeeping strategy, something that
would most likely be done anyhow.


#5 of 78 by other on Fri Nov 28 06:47:23 1997:

perhaps the initial stocking capital could be paid back over time rather than
being a first priority for the store.  this would soften the startup.
maybe 10% per month repay, just so as not to incur a big hit to store funding
before we see if it floats...


#6 of 78 by davel on Fri Nov 28 13:52:38 1997:

Generally speaking, I agree with Mary.


#7 of 78 by mary on Fri Nov 28 16:12:24 1997:

Re: #5  Paying the general fund back right away, as soon as
product sells, shouldn't pose a problem because either the
store would have the profit money or an inventory.  If we
find a significant amount of stock simply doesn't sell then
that would be a good reason to make the next order be a
custom order instead of a spec order.

I really don't think it's a good idea for 20% of Grex's
assets to be tied up in the store for very long.  If we
have money to spend I'd like to see it put toward 
service that addresses our mission, like improved mail
capabilities, speed, backup hardware, and an emergency
fund that would keep us going if gradoo hit the fan.
T-shirt are wonderful but not essential and I'd really
hate to see us focus even 20% of our resources in that
direction.

Get the store started then expect it to be self-sustaining.


#8 of 78 by mta on Fri Nov 28 16:33:49 1997:

Ingeneral, I think that's a good idea.  The only reason I see for the store
being given a head start is that T-shirts have generally sold well.  And it
*is* a form of advertising that can bring in more members over the long haul.

I think one more order of t's in a different design would be a good idea --
because people like choice.  But I think we might consider doing three or four
designs as custom orders for a trial period and then make a bigger order of
whichever sells really well.  After the second design is chosen, I agree that
if the store isn't self sustaining, it's probably a mistake to try to sustain
it.  (I can't see that happening, though.)


#9 of 78 by orinoco on Fri Nov 28 18:15:40 1997:

What would helping to manage the store entail?  I might be able to lend a hand
with that...


#10 of 78 by aruba on Sat Nov 29 06:38:55 1997:

I'm afraid I don't understand what having a separate store account would
accomplish.  I suppose that it would lighten the treasurer's work load,
but it would increase someone else's more. 

Certainly I agree that the store ought to be "self-sustaining" in that it
should make money.  But since its only costs are the costs of stock, all
it has to do to make money is sell *something*. 

Are you worried, Mary, that somehow money will slip under the rug here? 
That if we keep the money in the general fund that somehow it won't be
clear how much money we have in stock, and how much we're making from the
store?  Because there are other ways we could make that clear.  (By adding
it to the treasurer's report, for instance, or having the storemaster
enter a monthly report.)


#11 of 78 by mary on Sat Nov 29 13:00:47 1997:

Expecting the store to be self-sustaining is not a bookeeping
slight-of-hand.  Not at all.  It would simply keep the
general fund out of the business of the store and give the
store some distance from whatever else is happening with Grex.
Eventually.

The store would make money and that money would be used
to buy new stock and contribute toward other advertising
efforts.  Eventually, if the store does well enough, money
from the store could be transfered to the general fund.
The Board could decide when the balance was healthy enough
to do this.  Meanwhile, the store would be able to do
what it needs to do without always going to the Board
to ask for money to buy stock.  

I don't see how the treasurer's job would be any different
no matter how this is set up.  Either way I'd expect the
users to be clearly shown, in the montly budget, where the
money is going.

The primary benefit I see to setting it up this way is 
that the store will be forced to operate within a budget
supported by its sales.  And the general fund wouldn't be
in the t-shirt business.




#12 of 78 by mary on Sat Nov 29 13:07:45 1997:

Mark, were the mousepads and mugs included in the bill for $736.00?


#13 of 78 by mta on Sat Nov 29 18:44:49 1997:

I doubt that they were since they're from a different supplier and are "made
to order".


#14 of 78 by aruba on Sat Nov 29 20:27:36 1997:

No - we haven't paid for any mousepads and mugs.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by making the store
"self-sustaining".  There is no way the store can lose money, because it
doesn't have any overhead.  The worst it can do is end up with stock that
no one wants to buy.  But that's a problem we have faced with T-shirts
before; I don't see how separating the store's finances from the general
fund will make any difference. 

The difference in the treasurer's job, if we had two accounts, is that
there would be fewer credits to record and less communication required
with the storemaster.  The storemaster (if I'm understanding the proposal
correctly)  would be responsible for receiving money for purchases,
recording the credits, depositing the money, and reporting regularly how
much business the store did.  That means we need a separate P.O. Box and a
separate bank account for the store, with the storemaster the signator on
both. 

Well, ok, but that seems like a lot of responsibility for the storemaster,
and a lot of duplication of what the treasurer is already doing.  Not to
mention introducing the overhead of the cost of another box ($40/year) and
another account (service charges). 

Am I completely lost here?  Is that not what you're imagining, Mary?  If
the important thing is to make sure the store operates "within a budget
supported by its sales", then we could accomplish that by having the board
review the sales figures before allocating money for new stock.

If we were Disney corporation, launching a huge gamble like EuroDisney, I
would see your point about isolating the risky endeavor from the whole.
But the store doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.


#15 of 78 by orinoco on Sat Nov 29 21:32:33 1997:

I think her idea is that currently the store has to go to the board and ask
permission whenever they want to buy more goodies, and if the store had its
own stash of funds it wouldn't need to bother, it could just go and buy the
goodies it wanted without having to pester the board.


#16 of 78 by mary on Sun Nov 30 01:03:29 1997:

Exactly.  Mark, I don't think were talking to each other at all. ;-)
Somewhere, in my first response, I said this would not require
separate bank accounts and that the treasurer's job would be
unchanged.  Even the reporting would be the same.  What would
be different is that the Grex Store wouldn't end up needing
micro-management by the Board.  They would have the profits available
to use for restocks without needing Board approval.  The store's cash
needs wouldn't be dependent on whatever priorities were facing
the general fund.  If they sold stock, the money would be there.
If they didn't, they wouldn't need more money.  Meanwhile,
the Board can look at the general fund as money available to
keep Grex going and meet the demands of our mission.

Every few weeks you'd exchange mail with the Storemaster and he or she
would be told how much money *you* had deposited for t-shirts.  You'd
reimburse the Storemaster for postage on maybe a monthly or bimonthly
basis.  And every month *your* report would detail how much money the
store brought in, how much it spend, and the store's bottom line.  The
money would all stay in the same account.  It would be kept separate on
paper.  The Board will decide how much discretion the Storemaster had in
terms of purchasing power but I'd hope he or she would be allowed to spend
up to about $50 of what was in the Store's balance.  You would write
the checks to pay the store's bills.

If there is a way the Storemaster could deposit checks to the Grex
account without needing to be a co-signer, great.  The Storemaster
could do that for you.  But we don't need new bank accounts or
new signers.

One of the reasons I'd like to see this happen, besides making it easier
for the store to operate, is to not have a lot of general fund money
hanging out as store inventory.  Once the initial loan for startup is paid
back that won't be an issue.  The general fund will be available for
system needs.  Also, there will be a strong incentive for orders to match
demand and the Board won't be having to count stock while agreeing to new
orders.

Under this setup I expect the store to do well and the Board won't have to
micro-manage the effort. They can focus on more important issues.  If the
store doesn't bring in enough profit to be self-sustaining (possible if
too much of the wrong thing is ordered) then that will become obvious
quite quickly and the problem addressed. 

This really isn't all that complicated.  If it sounds like it is then I'm
not doing a very good job of laying it out. 



#17 of 78 by orinoco on Sun Nov 30 03:47:19 1997:

Actually, it sounds like a very good idea to me, from what little I know of
how grex is run.


#18 of 78 by aruba on Sun Nov 30 13:19:38 1997:

Well, OK, that's simpler than what I thought you meant.  And if, as you
suggest, Mary, we call the store's balance the "promotional fund" and use it
to pay for any advertisements, it solves the problem of deciding how much
money to allocate for advertising, which is something we also needed to
address.  I'm not sure that's a *good* solution, but I don't have a clue,
otherwise, how to decide how much to spend on advertising.  So it's a
welcome idea.

So you're imagining that if the promptional fund contains $700, and the
storemaster wants to order $700 worth of shirts, he need only ask the
treasurer for a check, and the board doesn't have to approve the expense at
all?  But if the storemaster wants to "borrow" money from the general
fund, then he needs to ask the board for approval?

I guess I have no objection to adding another category to the treasurer's
report, to subtract from it all purchases of stock and advertisements we
buy, and to add to it all sales from the store.  Right now the total will
be significantly negative, since we have paid out more than we have taken
in.  Perhaps the treasurer's report ought to include a summary of all
store stock as well?


#19 of 78 by mary on Sun Nov 30 16:03:37 1997:

You got it. ;-)

If the monthly treasurer's report documents the store's
income and expenses, broken down into stock purchased
and sold, mailing supplies, postage, and a clear
balance, then I don't see why a monthly inventory
would be needed. 

When the Board wants to allocate
funds for a promotional activity they'd confer with
the Storemaster to see if such expenditures could
comfortably come from the Store "account".  I expect
the answer would pretty much be clearly visible in 
the numbers but in the event there were questions, again,
an inventory could be requested.  When (if) the profits
ever got so big that the Store and promotional activities
were being adequately funded the Board could then decide
to move some money over into the general fund or put
it toward a special project.

But meanwhile the Store chugs along without a lot of
micro-management.  I expect it will be some time before
the Store will be operating in the black, with the startup
costs repaid to the general fund.  I'd also suspect the next
order or two will be a custom order for just what is needed
to increase profits and fine-tune the inventory.

And ya'll will be very happy to hear I'm going back to work
tomorrow and won't have nearly as much time to ramble on 
and on and on... ;-)


#20 of 78 by janc on Mon Dec 1 00:44:44 1997:

Mark:  When Rob dropped of the Mugs and mouse-pads, he said he thought he had
been reimbursed for this.  This would have been quite a long time ago.  Way
back when Rob originally got them made.  I know I bought a mousepad and
Valerie bought a mug back then.  I thought we paid Grex, so I hope Grex paid
Rob.


Hmmm...  I think I'd handle this by making a rule:
       _____
       \
        >     (purchase price of item)    <   $900
       /____
     inventory

That is, we should never have more than some amount, say $900, invested in
inventory.  

This rule means the storemaster does not have to ask the board for approval
every time a purchase is made.  If the storemaster wanted the cap raised, 
then board approval would be needed.

The cap should be relatively high, so that purchases can be made in large
lots (thus keeping costs down).  We would expect the actual inventories to
average significantly lower than the cap.

For internal accounting, I'd probably ask the store keeper to report on
the total purchase value of Grex's inventory at the end of each month.  On
Grex's account books, we'd record that value, the purchase price of the
inventory, as part of Grex's total worth.  This way we won't see Grex's
finances take an apparant nose dive every time we buy a batch of T-shirts.
Instead, purchasing inventory will just show numbers moving from the cash
column to the inventory column.  We will see Grex's bank account rise
whenever the shop sells anything, since the sales price is higher than
the inventory price.

This is a bit of a pain.  Different shirt styles and colors have different
purchase prices.  I don't know what they are, though I guess I can get them.
But I don't see any sensible way of avoiding that without making complete
nonsense out of our account books.  I think it's pretty much a matter of
setting up a spreadsheet, recording purchase and sales price of each type
of item, and carefully updating the inventory counts of each item.  Not
really too bad.

I don't like the idea of farming all the profits from the store back into
the store.  I don't see why the store should necessarily grow significantly.
If there are reasons why it should get bigger, then the board should be asked
to grow its inventory cap.


#21 of 78 by janc on Mon Dec 1 00:59:00 1997:

Here's what I see involved in the shopkeeper/shopmaster job:

  Keep the inventory in some reasonably safe place.
  Accept orders and arrange for delivery of the items.
  If people pay you instead of Mark, transfer money to Mark.
  Keep records of current inventory, purchase prices, sales prices.
  Report monthly on the state of things.
  When inventories get low, coordinate new purchases.

Related work that may or may not be done by the same person:

  Maintain grex shop web page.
  Design new stuff.

Basically it's a job that requires a someone who is well organized, and has
pretty good personal skills for dealing with other volunteers, suppliers and
customers.  Its probably moderately good resume fodder ("I managed the
merchandising branch of Cyberspace Communication Incorporated for two years
and brought in a 340% return on investment").

It could be divided over several people.  So far, Rob has been doing most of
the design and purchasing of stuff (it makes a lot of sense for people doing
design to coordinate directly with the suppliers), while I've been doing
the sales (such as they are).


#22 of 78 by aruba on Mon Dec 1 08:45:03 1997:

I would add that the storemaster ought to keep track of requests ("backorders")
that get made but can;'t be fulfilled because the item requested is out of
stock.  That, and records of what has sold well in the past, will provide a
sound basis for deciding what to stock up on next time a purchase is made.

If bruin is still interested in the job after reading Jan's definitions, I
think he'd do it well.


#23 of 78 by bruin on Mon Dec 1 12:53:41 1997:

The position looks somewhat less attractive to me right now, but I could
probably still volunteer as long as I am not doing all the work by myself.


#24 of 78 by mary on Mon Dec 1 13:07:05 1997:

If you are going to let the store manager place orders by
simply requesting the money from the general fund then I think
you need a few other safeguards other than a $900 max of stock
and money available.  If the general fund is flush with $6000
of cash assets then $900 is reasonable.  If the fund has just
had a big hit for hardware or donations are down and maybe
we only have $2000 available then $900 is way to high.

Maybe a dollar figure or a percentage of cash assets, whichever
is the *lower* figure.

I still would very much like to see store business kept quite
out of the general fund.  But that's just me.  

Too, whatever system ends up being used the treasurer's report will
clearly show, on a monthly basis, how much money went to the store and
what the bottom line cash assets are, right?  I'd hate see folks
following an "assets" line, thinking that cash is available
to keep grex running in the event of an emergency only to find out
it's being held in t-shirts.


#25 of 78 by richard on Mon Dec 1 15:42:27 1997:

Id like to pointout that grex going into the retail business doesnt
exactly fit into its non-profit status.  It could be argued that 
grex itself is one venture (non profit) and the store is a separate
retail venture (for profit)  I wonder if this is being done on too
large a scale.


#26 of 78 by scott on Mon Dec 1 17:15:11 1997:

The local PBS tv station has a "Store of Knowledge" shop in the local
mall...I'd really be surprised if our operation was "too big".  It's
fundraising, so all the profits really go to Grex, instead of shareholders.


#27 of 78 by aruba on Tue Dec 2 03:20:16 1997:

I guess I'd like to solicit some other ideas about how much money we should
spend on advertising.  I'll go enter an item about it.


#28 of 78 by aruba on Tue Dec 2 03:30:22 1997:

OK, I've entered item 57 about advertising strategy.


#29 of 78 by scg on Tue Dec 2 05:28:38 1997:

re 25:
        Even non-profits need money to operate, Richard.  The difference
between a for-profit and a non-profit is where the money goes.  In a
for-profit corporation, profits go to the owners (well, in theory anyway. 
I imagine most for-profits consist of the owners putting lots of money in and
not ending up getting very much back out).  In a  non-profit, the money has
to go to further the organization or its goals, rather than enriching the
people who control it.


#30 of 78 by aruba on Tue Dec 2 06:40:37 1997:

Re #20:  I can't find any record that we paid Rob for the mousepads and mugs,
I'm afraid.  :(


#31 of 78 by jep on Wed Dec 3 19:45:41 1997:

#29 sounds like what Arbornet thought, when it was selling manuals and 
the like.

My wife (aandrea) used to be the business manager for NEW Center, and 
has some insight into financial matters for non-profits.  She told me 
about a time when NEW Center was selling manuals, and assuming it was 
covered as part of their mission.  It wasn't, it was "unrelated business 
income", and they had to pay sales and income taxes on it, as I 
understand what she said.

Someone responsible might want to ask her about that, or contact NEW 
Center and see if they can help answer the question, or as Aaron Larson.  

My understanding is that the TV56 store in Briarwood is also producing 
"unrelated business income", and that the money probably has to be 
accounted for in a different way than donations and advertising money.  
My understanding is very weak in these matters.  If Grex is trying to 
operate according to the rules of a 501(c)(3), though, the Grex Store is 
probably not covered under it's mission.


#32 of 78 by richard on Wed Dec 3 20:03:42 1997:

#29..exactly, I dont think it is covered....itis one thing
to operate via user donations, but operating via retailsales is
another thing, even if the money is going to the same place.  Wouldnt
want grex to end up owing $$$ to the IRS because the rules wre
misunderstood.  Im just saying maybe this wasnt thought through enough
before the go ahead was given to do it on this scale.


#33 of 78 by mary on Wed Dec 3 22:11:40 1997:

I'm hoping Rane jumps in here as his information is more up to date than
mine but I believe organizations like Grex are allowed to receive money,
even when folks are getting a product in return, so long as that profit
isn't more than 1/3 of the organization's gross income. 

I think our supplying and even selling t-shirts and related
logo-merchandise is a neat idea.  I'd like to see some safeguards set up
so that it can't get away from us yet be easy to manage, but I really like
the idea.  Rob and Jan have done a Good Thing in getting this going.  Mark
is working to see it gets accurately integrated into the budget
report.  And I sure hope that people throwing in suggestions from the
sidelines (myself especially) isn't being taken as as sign their efforts
aren't appreciated. 



#34 of 78 by janc on Thu Dec 4 00:42:23 1997:

The Grex Store definately is "unrelated business income".  I'd have to dig
up the rules on that again, but my memory was that we were in no immediate
danger of violating any of them.


#35 of 78 by rcurl on Thu Dec 4 07:01:58 1997:

You have to meet the IRS "support" tests. Mary alludes to the 1/3 rule,
but one has to know what to put in the numerator and what in the
denominator. The test, under 501(c)3, is in regard to "public support".
All income goes in the denominator, and essentially all donations go
into the numerator (but you can't count donations from single sources
that are more than 2% of the gross income). Dues count as public support.

I haven't been following this very closely, but have STATE SALES TAXES
been mentioned? You have to have a license to sell retail, and you must
collect sales taxes and submit them to the state. 

I am not immediately conversant on the rules for also paying federal
income taxes on sales - never had to deal with that.


#36 of 78 by other on Thu Dec 4 07:19:00 1997:

what if we call it "the Grex eternal fundraiser"  and offer the items as
"premiums" (or "premia") for the "donations" we receive?


#37 of 78 by rcurl on Thu Dec 4 07:36:07 1997:

There are rules on the value of premiums used in fund raisers before
the recipients have to deduct that value from the tax deduction they
can claim (this is for a 501(c)3). I don't think that such premiums
are subject to state sales tax, since you are not offering them for sale.
This would have to looked into further, though.

By the way - it is easy to get a state sales license. But then you have
to submit regular reports (and a form), even if you have no sales. If
you lapse, they let a big penalty build up, and then dump that on you.
So filing the sales tax report would become a regular necessary job
of the treasurer. It is not hard, but it cannot be forgotten. There
is certainly no *harm* in collecting and remitting sales tax. You can
build it into the price of the goods, even, and then figure out later
what you must send to the state.


#38 of 78 by aruba on Thu Dec 4 08:48:27 1997:

Yes, we have a sales tax license, as of about 3 weeks ago, and yes we have
been collecting sales tax on items sold in the Grex store.  Valerie, you will
give me the forms to submit and let me know how often to submit them, right?


#39 of 78 by valerie on Thu Dec 4 17:08:27 1997:

This response has been erased.



#40 of 78 by valerie on Fri Dec 5 14:39:45 1997:

This response has been erased.



#41 of 78 by dpc on Sat Dec 6 00:06:07 1997:

I don't want to see the store hung up on bureaucratic trivia.  I
hope that the Board lets aruba set up the *simplest possible*
accounting system.
        Since Grex is currently *not* a 501(c)(3) organization, but
a simple Michigan non-profit, all that stuff about "unrelated income"
and the 1/3 rule don't apply.  But, just FWIW, nothing is "unrelated
income" (and hence taxable) which is produced by volunteers *alone*.
This is what I call the "bake sale rule."  Many if not most 501(c)(3)'s
have volunteer fund-raising projects which have nothing to do with
their mission.  The IRS doesn't tax these projects.
        With regard to Michigan sales tax, Dave Thaler told me that
goods sold by a Michigan non-profit (like Grex) are *not* subject to
sales tax unless more than $15,000 of goods are sold per year.
Maybe valerie will find such a provision in the sales tax paperwork
she is reading.  If not, a call to Lansing might be *very* helpful.
        No level of government is interested in going after small-
scale nonprofits.


#42 of 78 by valerie on Sat Dec 6 14:28:12 1997:

This response has been erased.



#43 of 78 by richard on Sat Dec 6 15:39:28 1997:

#41...yes the 501(3)(c) rules dont apply because grexdoesnt have that
status, but grex's bylaws do state dont they that grex has to abide by
those rules anyway.

this came up in agora when I was asking about grex endorsing political
candidates and the answer I got was that grex couldnt because it was
bound by the bylaws to follow what would be the rules if it were a
501(3)(c) even though it is not.

It would be hypocritical to say that in one case grex has to follow
501(3)(c) rules (and therefore not endorse Larry Kestenbaum if he runs for
state rep) but in the other case of the grex store and the 1/3 requirement
it doesnt have to follow the rules.


#44 of 78 by dpc on Sat Dec 6 20:01:43 1997:

Richard, I've just read the Grex bylaws (See Coop Item 2) and I can't
see anything in them about 501(c)(3) status at all.  I think there
may be a bit of misinformation floating around for the reason that
taxes are considered hard, scary, and boring at the same time, so
very few people have any idea what the story is.


#45 of 78 by aruba on Sat Dec 6 21:15:48 1997:

According to Jan in resp:coop,13,1 the proviso in question is in our
Articles of Incorporation, article 6, section 3.  I don't know where to find
the Articles online, though.


#46 of 78 by remmers on Sat Dec 6 21:44:45 1997:

The Articles of Incorporation are in Coop Item 3. And yes,
that's where the proviso is.


#47 of 78 by rcurl on Sun Dec 7 21:19:09 1997:

When Grex does file for 501(c)3 status it will have to submit its
fiscal records for past years, to ensure that it has conformed in the
past to 501(c)3 regulations and does not owe past taxes, etc. It is not
adviseable to do anything now not in accord with 501(c)3 exemption if
such exemption will be sought. Of course, if past practices were not
in accord with 501(c)3, but past taxes are still not due, then there should
be no problem (but maybe some delays).


#48 of 78 by srw on Mon Dec 8 02:38:06 1997:

Exactly. That is why I don't like to follow arguments that are predicated
on the assumption that we are not a 501(C)(3). We want to become one, so if
we take advantage of the fact that we are not one, we will only make it harder
later on.


#49 of 78 by jep on Mon Dec 8 16:58:39 1997:

I sure wouldn't want to see Grex endorsing political candidates.  What 
would such an endorsement mean?  That the Board had decided to endorse 
someone, and therefore if I want to become a member and vote, I have to 
consider the politics of the candidates?  That all of us endorse the 
candidate?  How is that determined?  There are users here who are from 
countries that don't get to vote.  Do they endorse who "we" endorse?

resp:43 really set the bells to clanging for me.  Sorry about the drift.


#50 of 78 by aruba on Mon Dec 8 21:03:33 1997:

BTW we received a packet from Lansing in the mail today, containing coupons
and instructions for paying them the sales tax we have collected.


#51 of 78 by valerie on Tue Dec 9 01:50:22 1997:

This response has been erased.



#52 of 78 by richard on Tue Dec 9 22:42:43 1997:

I wasnt saying Grex should endorse political candidates outright,but 
just that what would be wrong with giving a little publicity to Larry's 
campaign...such as creating a conf for him that could be his virtual 
campaign headquarters and reminding people about it in the motd from 
time to time.   Does that constitute an endorsement?  I dont think so 
but some think it does and that it would be a 501(3)(c) violation.

I dont think there is anything wrong with public advocacy groups using 
grex.  And dont think grex endorses a particular group or view simply by 
virtue of sharing use of its facilities.


#53 of 78 by davel on Wed Dec 10 18:34:18 1997:

There are a whole lot of reasons that Grex shouldn't be endorsing candidates
even to the extent of "giving a little publicity to" certain favored
candidates.  How do we choose which candidates get favored?  How much bigger
does the motd have to get, & who gets to choose which candidates are endorsed
there?  Aside from any tax-status issues, it would quickly become a major
distraction from Grex's mission - conferencing - if in fact it got anywhere
at all.  Do we start having people run for the board so that they can make
Grex endorse their chosen people?  How much discussion do we have to have in
coop about the pros & cons of particular candidates?  Bleah.  What jep said,
to about the hundredth power.

OTOH, if polygon *wanted* to start a conference here to serve as his "virtual
campaign headquarters", he need only ask that the conference be created.  Of
course, the same is true of any candidate at all, so this would constitute
no endorsement whatsoever.  As far as I know, our policy has *always* been
to allow any user to propose a that a conference be created, & to do it
(after a reasonably brief discussion period) unless the person making the
proposal changed his mind.

As usual, Richard, your head is screwed on 180 degrees backward on this.


#54 of 78 by rcurl on Wed Dec 10 18:44:43 1997:

Well, maybe 90 degrees? 


#55 of 78 by tsty on Mon Dec 15 20:08:03 1997:

richard .... 501(c)3   DOES NOT APPLY TO GREX !!
  
quit typing it, 'k?


#56 of 78 by rcurl on Tue Dec 16 04:06:08 1997:

It does, according to the Articles of Incorporation (but without the
benefits, only the responsibilities, because application has not
been made).


#57 of 78 by dpc on Tue Dec 16 19:02:01 1997:

No corporation can impose tax-related duties on itself, for pity's sake!
The languate in the articles can only take effect upon the obtaining
of 501(c)(3) status from the Feds.


#58 of 78 by mta on Tue Dec 16 19:39:58 1997:

This response has been erased.



#59 of 78 by mta on Tue Dec 16 19:41:51 1997:

But it becomes much, much easier to *get* 501c3 status if we've already been
following the rules.

The IRS is very willling to turn people down, you know.


#60 of 78 by dang on Tue Dec 16 21:49:55 1997:

resp:57  Why now?  I can't think of any reason why one couldn't.


#61 of 78 by rcurl on Wed Dec 17 01:02:00 1997:

Re #57, in agreement with #60: of course it can. It can impose policies
(in fact, it has) requiring that it not do anything that would jeopardize
obtaining 501(c)3 exemption, which is what the Articles provide. 


#62 of 78 by mary on Thu Feb 5 13:55:23 1998:

Was the topic of the role (and authority) of the Grex Store
Manager ever brought before the Board?  I don't see any 
mention of it in the minutes.

I believe Jan announced jiffer has the job.  But I'd assume
all purchases will need to be authorized by a Board vote?
That may acually be the best way to go unless the store is
going to be doing a whole lot of business and bringing in
significant profits.



#63 of 78 by janc on Fri Feb 20 15:44:20 1998:

I don't think the Grex shopkeeper can purchase anything without board
authorizations right now.  It is possible that we should consider the
job as one that should be approved by board vote (though jiffer volunteered
during a board meeting and no objections were heard).  Formalizing it a bit
more is probably a good idea.  I guess the shopkeeper is managing a
non-trivial portion of Grex's assets (the store inventory) and needs to be
appointed by someone, and if not by the board, then who?  So yeah, I think
we should elect jiffer to the job.


#64 of 78 by rcurl on Fri Feb 20 19:11:20 1998:

Anyone manipulating Grex assets or acting publically on behalf of Grex
should be appointed by the board. It helps protect them and assures
others with whom that person deals.


#65 of 78 by richard on Fri Feb 20 19:43:34 1998:

the grex shopkeeper should be the grex treasurer, because the
treasurer can make purchases without board authorization


#66 of 78 by mta on Fri Feb 20 20:26:12 1998:

Except for one problem, Richard.  

Both shopkeeper and trearurer are big jobs and since Grex can't afford to pay a
salary, we have to make sure our vulunteers also get a couple of free hours a
week to make a living in.

Other than that it makes sense.


#67 of 78 by rcurl on Fri Feb 20 20:37:30 1998:

Even the treasurer cannot make purchases without board authorization. The
board adopts a budget, or a specific purchase authorization, and identifies
who will make the purchase - it is not usually the treasurer, who just pays
the bill when it arrives.


#68 of 78 by richard on Sat Feb 21 19:23:54 1998:

yes, but anybody who has their signature in grex's signature file at
the bank can write a check, and pay for stuff, and get it authorized
after the fact by the board.  So I guess the shopkeeper needs to be
one of those people.  How many people can sign grex checks?  Must
be three or four people right?


#69 of 78 by scg on Sat Feb 21 20:19:10 1998:

Our check signers are supposed to get board approval first, Richard.


#70 of 78 by aruba on Sat Feb 21 21:30:00 1998:

I'm the only one who has any checks.  :)  I certainly wouldn't make a 
purchase of anything non-standard without getting the board's approval.


#71 of 78 by rcurl on Sun Feb 22 21:00:28 1998:

Absolutely no one except the treasurer plus an alternate in the event
of his/her absence, should be able to sign checks for an organization.
Having more than one authorized person signing checks regularly is an
invitation for confusion if not serious problems. 

In the organizations in which I am active this is always the case. However
the treasurer can advance funds to someone to have on hand to make a purchase,
or write a check for that person to use at the time of purchase, or require
an invoice and pay directly to the vendor. The last is the best, but only
for things for which the vendor will accept payment on an invoice.


#72 of 78 by valerie on Tue Feb 24 07:06:14 1998:

This response has been erased.



#73 of 78 by mdw on Sat Feb 28 07:48:34 1998:

In a large enough organization it is certainly possible to have lots of
people who can write checks.  I'm quite certain ford motor company
doesn't have one person plus an alternate who signs all the checks the
company issues.  If nothing else, think of the disability payments when
their wrist ligaments fail, plus the number of upset union people there
would be when paychecks didn't show up because the guys signing the
checks can't sign them fast enough to keep up with the montly payroll.

Fortunately, grex isn't anywhere near this size.


#74 of 78 by other on Sat Feb 28 18:40:20 1998:

companies of that size, and typically, smaller ones as well, contract payroll
management companies to process and distribute those checks so that the
treasurer can handle other matters of a less regular or more "important"
nature...


#75 of 78 by rcurl on Sat Feb 28 18:46:56 1998:

They also write checks with a computer and printer...and they authorize
a number of departments to "write checks" on the authorized budgeted accounts.
When I order something from a UM account over which I have authority, a
computer somewhere writes the check and debits that account. If Grex
wants to budget by accounts, that's fine....but the checks would still be
"written" by the Accounting Office computer. The real point is to not
have conflicting authority over a single account. At the moment, Grex
just has one account. 


#76 of 78 by mdw on Sun Mar 1 07:22:49 1998:

Many companies, in fact, *especially* often small companies, contract
out their payroll operations.  But the reason there is not so much
scaling issues (although that's certainly a factor too) but because it's
complicated, high risk, and uniform across companies - so it's possible
for companies, such as ADP right here in town, to offer payroll services
for cheaper than most companies could do it for themselves.  Rane and I
may be unusual in that the organization we work for *doesn't* contract
this out to ADP.  This is all, of course, entirely moot for grex,
because grex doesn't have any salaries, its labour force is even cheaper
than hiring outside contractors, the total amount of money grex has is
too small to be worth anyone else's while, and because it would take
more effort to supervise an outside contractor to handle our money than
it would take us to do it ourselves.

Computers certainly do facilitate accounting.  But this is has very
little to do with how the accounting is structured, and is *certainly*
not a substitute for good accounting practices.  I'm sure our treasurer
would not be happy were we to require he dispense with the services of a
computer in handling our accounting needs, even though he is just one
person.  Conversely, in the 19th century, railroads handled financial
and accounting needs far more complicated than grex is ever likely to
become, using no technology more advanced than that of the typewriter,
telegraph, and carbon paper--and a lot of hand powered ink dripping
pens.

Having said all that, I do in fact agree it's reasonable to have the
usual treasurer who handles most of the accounting needs, plus an
emergency alternate in case the treasurer falls off a ladder or
something.  I also agree that it's reasonable to have that treasurer
write out the checks that pay for merchandise.  But the correct reason
is not "because it's the only way to do it", or "because of computers" -
it's because it's the simplest, best way, to do it, given the present
size & structure of grex.  Now, if our merchandizing efforts really
expand, and we start competing with mickey-mouse for space in department
stores, or we start selling merchandize in india, *then* it might be
time to rethink this strategy, and there *are* other solutions that
would be more appropriate.


#77 of 78 by davel on Mon Mar 2 13:43:03 1998:

Somewhat before that point, I think.


#78 of 78 by jiffer on Fri May 1 03:28:25 1998:

As the some what new shopkeeper, I would not feel right having to make
purchases without first the boards approval... which I feel is the only right
way of doing things.  


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