I would like to have some discussion on the effects of routing
the dialins through the ptys.
The major effect I can see so far is that local dialers-in
are now subject to the telnet queue. For these people (including
me) waiting in the queue is a big disincentive to getting on Grex.
My *impression* is that the most active participants in
the conferences are local dialers-in. If this is so, can we expect
to see a decline in conferencing activity? Has such a decline
already happened?
On M-Net, janc has said that one option of correcting this
situation is repairing Grex' power supply. Is anyone considering
doing this?
77 responses total.
Regardless of the effects, we're stuck with it for the moment. I'd say the
easiest thing to do to fix it, since we're going to do it anyway, is get the
670 up. However, it's also likely to be the second longest of the three
options. These are, as far as I know:
1. Get up on the 670. It will work with the ALM (serial) card fine,
and the modems can go back to what they were. This will happen
eventually, regardless of this problem.
2. Fix the telnetd, rlogind, and sshd programs to route traffic from
the terminal server to a seperate set of ptys, thus bypassing the
telnet queue for dialins. This will happen regardless of the
problem.
3. Fix the powersupply on Grex, so that we can go back to using the
ALM card. This won't happen unless this problem spawns it.
Of the three, 3 will likely be the quickes, then 1, then 2. However, 3 is
also expense that need not be spent, as both of the other two will happen
eventually. So, can we stand it for however long it takes to get up on
the 670? Or do we need it fixed now? One other think to keep in mind:
Many staff members dial in. This problem will likely spur them on to more
work on the 670, but working on the power supply may possibly detract from
work on the 670. I don't know. Keep in mind too, that no fix is likely to
be in place in less than a week, probably more.
All this said, I don't really have an opinion, because I telnet in since the
advent of teh ISDN link. (Mostly, my telnet software is much much better than
my dialin software) I'm leaning slightly toward waiting for teh 670, but I
do know how annoying it is to dial into the queue, so I'd also like to see
this fixed asap. Option 2 waits on Marcus, and I have no idea where he stands
on it. I know it's on his todo list, which is a mile long, but I don't know
where.
We may be able to get a spare power supply. I'm waiting to hear back about that.
I'm with dpc on this one - I'd like to see it resolved as quickly as possible. I suggest putting a time limit on solutions other than fixing the power supply. In other words, we could say that if the situation isn't take care of in, say, three weeks, we spend whatever it takes to fix the power supply or get a new one. (I heard at the board meeting that it would cost $150-$200 for a new one, which is money we have in our bank account.)
Don't even wait the three weeks. Otherwise I agree with Mark.
The thing is, we're not sure fixing the power supply will do it. And even when that's done, it would mean going back to the other problems associated with running the modems through the serial ports. Getting on the 670 isn't a good solution either, because really we should still be using the terminal server there. It would be much better to get the telnetd to the point where it can tell the difference between local and terminal server users. I'm not sure what Marcus's current timetable is on that.
I offered Grex a free, good, working power supply a couple years ago. There was minimal interest and then I heard nothing. So, I sold it at a swap for $5 this spring. I checked out the power supply on Grex a few months ago. It seemed to be doing its job. BTW, it's a 1,000 watt supply!
I'm with steve #5
Recently, I've been having trouble dialing in because I get disconnected after a while of waiting on the queue. Does anyone know what's up?
This response has been erased.
Monday night, for quite a while, I got the "wait a bit to connect" msg, then got kicked off. I've also been waiting the the telnet queue a lot, but have never been kicked off once the numbers started.
Ok, is there some way you techies can fix things so that there is less than 90second wait between "wait for a conection" and the start of the telnet que? My problem seems to be in my software, that quits after 90 seconds of waiting for the queue to start counting down. It thinks that there is "No Connection" , shrugs its shoulders, and goes off to do other things (pout, I do believe).
This response has been erased.
Same problem as Catriona - every time the numbers start, I stay connected.
Grex has been down a bit lately, which would result in you getting the "welcome to Grex, please wait a bit message" (from groupie, not Grex), then no actual connection followed by a timeout.
Re: scg and jared: In this particular case, I am very reluctant to accept the normal "we'll do the best thing no matter how long it takes us to get around to it." I'm looking for something to put out the fire here, and I think we should be willing to spend a little money to do it. I think it's a very serious problem, making dialin users go through the telnet queue. Argue about the seriousness if you like, but if you agree that it's serious then we ought to do something about it pronto. Buying a power supply is something we can do. If it doesn't work, then at least we tried, and we can sell the thing to someone else.
I disagree that it's a serious problem. It seems like a somewhat silly use of resources, I agree, given that if we're paying for phone lines we might as well use them, but that's a financial problem, not an interface problem. I have no reason to dial in at this point, since the Net connection is good enough. That means that I wait in the queue no matter what. It's not the nicest system in the world, but some people here are making getting into the queue sound like the worst thing in the world. Really, the queue isn't a big deal. A mostly unrelated side issue is that we really shouldn't be doing anything that would promote the dial-up modems as a better way to access Grex than the Internet connection. Dial-up lines are expensive, so we should really be encouraging anybody who has other ways to get in to do so.
Steve, having recently visited your place and worked with your computer setup, I think that you need to put yourself in the place of a Grex user who is somewhat less fortunate than you. Grex users who have PPP-capable setups, multiple windows, and a commerical ISP -- for them, the telnet queue isn't a big problem. Stick the telnet queue in a window and go do something else. But grex has a lot of users on heritage equipment, and we have users who don't have a commercial or academic ISP. For those users -- putting the local dial-ins into the telnet queue is pretty much the same as crippling local dial-in access beginning at 11 pm - midnight every night. I'm not sure what the right approach is here -- I'm somewhat partial towards trying to avoid work on the current system to point resources at the Sun 670. But I don't think we can declare this a non-problem.
People in Ann Arbor who don't have ISPs are one one the prime groups who can benefit from the Grex community, and I want to encourage them at every step. Not to mention (as I am about to, for the umpteen billionth time) that they are a large part of what is keeping Grex alive financially. Putting them into the telnet queue is a great way to discourage them. I will fight tooth and nail to keep our local dialin numbers robust and convenient.
This response has been erased.
Ooooh, heritage equipment! My Mac Plus and my PowerBook 150 now have an identity. And I am one of those who lacks a commercial or academic ISP. When the dial-ins dont work, I dont have an office with snazzy equipment to go to. DIaling is in not a simple at-home convenience for me. It is the only way I can get to other computers.
What _is_ groupie?
groupie is a terminal server
um...
Going through the telnet queue is the only way many people can get to Grex. Even many of our telnet users have ancient equipment, which they use to dial into somwhere they can telnet out from. They deal with it. At the same time, I would imagine that most of our dial-up users probably are using some sort of Windows terminal program that they could put in the background by doing something else. I guess I don't understand what it is about dial-up users that makes the incapable of dealing with something we all seem to agree was a big improvement when it was instituted for telnet users. No, it's not a great use of resources, but it's not the huge problem people seem to think it is either.
Depends on *when* you try to get in, though. I really want to get the ALM card back so we can have dedicated dialins.
Re #23: (was that a question - say, "what is a terminal server?" or something? Or should we just ignore it?)
when my real computer's working, i use procomm plus to dial in. it's not, as far as i can tell, something i can stick in a window while i wait to get through the telnet queue. when my computer's not working (currently), i use an ancient hp2626 dumb term -- the one which used to be m-net's console...again, something i can't use to go do something else while i wait to get through the telnet queue. most of the time, i find it's not really *that* big a problem. the time i spend waiting in the queue, if i encounter a wait, is usually used for either talking to wendy-who-is-not-online or reading a real paper book. otoh, is is rather nice to be able to dial in and log in right away. i guess it's really about whether i feel like delaying my gratification. :)
It would be nice to get in right away on a telnet connection too, but it sometimes doesn't happen. I'm not arguing that the queue is the best of all possible worlds, but rather that it's something all but of a few of our users deal with whether not the dial-ups are in it. Many of our users who telnet in are also using computers that don't let them put their telnet session in the background and do something else.
I'm with aruba. If someone has been used to getting in on a dialin
with no waiting, to suddenly have to wait in a telnet queue,
and *then* to be told "well live with it"--I expect a lot of our
supporting members will say "Fine. I'll live with it by not
trying to log on any more."
I think the laid-back "we'll fix it when we're darn good
and ready" attitude among some people has resulted in Grex almost
completely being unable to function. I mean really! Not wanting
to fix a power supply? Not bothering to enable a computer we
purchased months ago? What is it with you people?
How about just not bothering to have Grex at all?
David, I don't know what bug has gotten into your britches lately, but I think you're being overly harsh about the staff's use of time and resources. Maybe Steve's response to the dial in queue is "live with it", but he's not the only staffer and many others have voiced more concern. Besides, it sounds to me like the the option isn't "use the queue or get in immediately" but rather "Use the queue or don't dial in" or "Use the queue, allow dialins, and have Grex crash every six hours". That's a problem, and it's a problem that should be dealt with. But for the moment which choice does the most good for the most people seems obvious. The queue is a short term band-aid while the staff works on a long term solution to the problem. No one said we aren't willing to fix the power supply, what they've said is that we have another power supply that may be reliable, but we have to get ahold of it, and that spending the time to try to fix the current one a) isn't a guarantee that it'll work and b) would take time away from what is a guaranteed fix of that and a multitude of other problems our poor, over-worked computer is having. Given that there is a very limited amount of staff time available, I think it makes more sense to put the major effort into things that will produce the greatest good over the longest term. Sure, it's a shame that there's a limited amount of staff time. But that's a fact of life on an all volunteer system run with the intention to give the maximum service to the maximum number of people for free. Other facts of life: o We have antique equipment that takes time and persistance to learn. o We have cast-off equipment, some of which may have been cast off for a reason. o We have a staff of volunteers who give their time to Grex from the goodness of their hearts and because they enjoy the system and feel good about helping out. But they do have lives. Some have families to feed, all have family and friends who need some of their time, too, and all have challenging careers to maintain, as well as other hobbies. You can bet that harping, whining and a lack of gratitude don't do a lot for the staffs enjoyment of the work they do. And guess what -- if you piss off volunteers, not only do they have the perfect right to walk away, but you make it a hell of a lot harder to find a fool willing to replace them under the heaps of invective. If you think the staff's "lack of diligence" and refusal to donate every waking moment has made Grex "almost completely ...unable to function", just wait til you see what happens when the only people willing to take on the job are technically inept power seekers. Won't that be some fun system?
Thanks, Misti. Good news: gregc has a power supply that may work, and I will probably be able to pick it up this afternoon (and then run right to the Pumpkin to put it in).
Patience is an important discipline! Thanks to gregc, we have a good power supply, and modems are back to normal.
Is this Greg's power supply, or Grex's that Greg had stored? Just out of curiosity - not sure from the wording of things. What Misti said.
Leaving the dial-in lines in the queue would have been expensive in the long run. Are we borrowing the power supply from Greg? If so, his loan is much appreciated but I'd really like to see us buy one and get his loaner back ASAP.
I'm under the impression that Grex owns a bunch of spare Sun chassises, each one of which would have a power supply. These are being stored at Greg's house. I'm not sure whether this power supply came from one of those, or from something that Greg owns. Anyway, we hopefully won't need it for very long, sinice it's looking like we will be able to be on the 670 soon.
Thanks very much, Scott, for taking care of this.
I'm pleased that within about one day of my "vigorous expression of opinion" we have the new power supply and the dialin situation is fixed!
No cause and effect connection, though. The process of getting the supply was already going when you gave your "pep talk".
I'm a little pissed at dpc's responses #29 and #37. I may be accusing David of something he didn't intend to say/imply, but I want to get it off my chest regardless. My response #2 in this item was that I was waiting to hear back about a possible replacement, which in fact is the one I installed yesterday. In response #29, dpc basically accused staff of not even trying! I had already acted on this even before this item had been entered. Finally, in response #38 dpc sounds like he might (my impression) be taking credit for getting staff motivated. I sincerely hope this is not considered a form of "effective management". My decision to spend several hours, unpaid, on a weekend, in a hot room doing computer work (a business I am currently looking to get out of) was motivated more by the kind of community exemplified in Misti's response #30, rather than #29. If dpc's #29 had any effect on my motivation, it was fortunatly not enough of an influence to make me decide *not* to blow Saturday afternoon on putting in a new power supply. Management by insults is pretty good way to lose volunteers. If I felt that the majority of Grex's members and users expressed a "why the fuck haven't you fixed it yet, asshole" attitude, rest assured I wouldn't be wasting my time here.
I'm confident that that attitude is in the minority here.
Me too.
Thanks Scott. The work you did is appreciated.
Scott, I *know* you had more fun things to do with a saturday afternoon, and that it probably took a certain amount of self control to go into a hot little room and spend the day at a task that you knew (from this item) certain people would fail to appreciate. Thank you. I believe that I'm speaking for a large majority of Grexers when I thank you profusely! I know I'm speaking from the bottom of my own heart.
No thanks needed. :) I was happy enough to get Grex running full steam again, for the bulk of the people who use it. I may have overreacted a bit to dpc's reponses; if so I apologize. I'm calmer today. :)
Thanks to Scott for fixing the problem. Thanks to all of the staff of Grex for doing an amazing, marvelous job at keeping this system running.
My thanks echoes to staff as well, though in the past month pressing engagements have kept me so scarce that I've barely noticed the technical difficulties.
This response has been erased.
re 44: No, you didn't overreact. No apologies needed.
Thanx *very much*, scott!
Heck, I'm just a "no excuses" kind of guy. We nags and squeaky
wheels have our roles to pay, too. 8-)
And the concept that *I* am involved in Grex management--the
mind boggles...
Once the 670 is up I will truly be a happy camper. When
is that supposed to happen?
We ran into the problem that the OS we had installed (SunOS 4.1.3) was the wrong version, and indeed different than we thought we were installing (SunOS 4.1.3U1). So, we had so scramble around to find either SunOS 4.1.3U1 or 4.1.4, since 4.1.3 has some serious problems, as I understand it. We managed to get a 4.1.4 CD, and a reasonable set of patches, and so those will be (have been?) installed asap.
This response has been erased.
I guess most of the ducks are lined up to redo the software install on the 4/670, but while I was waiting for that, I got distracted by Backtalk, and I'm currently still trying to iron out a few more bugs in the version I recently installed. Since Grex's machine is currently working better than it has for years, I feel Backtalk debugging is a higher priority for me personally right now than the 4/670. Doesn't mean someone else can't get on the 4/670.
He's also been spending a lot of time helping me hoist plywood and drive screws.
Have you imposed a deadline on him? :)
res 49: Nag, my foot, Dave! You've imported Grex ideas over to MNet on a regular basis, virtually in sync with their implementation here (yup, grexers, MNet's running an auction, too -- and an ISDN connection, and an MNet sightings item, and...) Obviously, Grex is doing something right, to merit all the imitation. Don't act so displeased, because you're not fooling those of us who are on both systems.
Um, I'm sure M-Net had an ISDN line first. I'm almost sure they had an auction first. I have no idea who had a "sightings" item first. We both steal liberally from each other. Since M-Net is far older than Grex, and was until recently wealthier and larger than Grex, I strongly suspect that we got more from them than vice versa.
Well, to be honest, tao, a lot of ideas that m-net and grex share started on m-net and were imported by grexers who came here. I don't remember which off hand, so I don't know whether those you mention were original here or there. Doesn't matter. A good idea is a good idea and a healthy m-net is god for grex, too. However I think your point is an excellent one. If Grex is so bad, why is Dave here? It's not like he has no where else to hang out... I don't know where you got the idea that nagging was a good thing, Dave, but a lot of people disagree. Some vehemently. Please, if you're hoinestly doing it for GREXes good, cut it out. If you're just trying to rabble rouse (what it looks like to those of us who don't know you), then take it where it's welcome. Please.
Ooops, Jan slipped in...
M-Net got their ISDN line while Grex's was in the planning stage. I think Grex had anounced the intention to do it before M-Net did. M-Net definitely had the acution first, and that was where Grexers got the idea. M-Net definitely had a conferencing system first. I have no idea who had a sightings item first.
Grex had the sightings item first; I confess that I imported it to
M-Net, where it has caught on quite nicely.
Yes, M-Net was first with ISDN. M-Net was first with the
auction.
Please avoid the transparent defensive maneuvers, mta (and
others). As a Grexer my interest is in seeing that Grex *works*.
For the past several months, a variety of technical problems have
meant that it *hasn't* worked. Now we seem to be over the hump--
thank the Goddess.
If I didn't care about Grex I wouldn't be here, now would I?
Oh, tao--check your Cooking Conference on M-Net. Something
is burning. 8-)
Grex has "worked" all along. Sometimes it's had more technical problems than it has right now. Same is true of M-Net, of course.
re 60: "Making sure that Grex works' won't be accomplished by nagging, Dave, any more so than it has on MNet. And as for the ISDN, auction, and other items, I'm talking about what's going on currently. It's almost as if present MNet activities are being cloned from whatever Grexers think is cool to do at the moment. Fine and dandy. But don't bring the MNet management style here, until MNet's in better shape than is Grex.
You've got backwards on ISDN and the auction, tao. Also, M-Net
was ahead of Grex on the Internet connection prior to ISDN, using
a 56K line for a while until it became too expensive and then going
to a 33.6K line. Not that it is a big deal; we all should want
both systems to be as useful as possible.
As to which is the "larger" system, M-Net has several times
the amount of materials being put into its conferences monthly as
Grex does. OTOH, Grex handles a much larger amount of e-mail than
M-Net does. Depends on what your priorities are, I guess.
With Grex' fixing of the power supply, I think the two systems
are in ruffly the same shape.
(Nice euphemism, "materials". Now, let's do a quality assessment... ;-)
heh
transparent defensive maneovers, eh? <grin> Sounds like I hit a nerve.
Grex started trying to get ISDN at a time when m-net could not afford to upgrade. Good for grex. Despite grex's head start, m-net got its ISDN connection up and running sooner than grex. Good for m-net. Who stole the idea from who? Who cares!?
question now is who will get a T1 first...grex or mnet. Grex's main goal now should be to find a way, any way, to get an afordable T1.. Grex must have a T1!
Heh. Meanwhile, MNet's got to stop crashing. Maybe MNet's staff needs deadlines. :*
Meanwhile, this argument is completely meaningless from my point of view, and devisive too. I don't particularly care who got what first. The fact that M-Net and Grex can "borrow" good ideas from each other is great. I don't happen to enjoy spending time on M-Net. Fine. Many M-Netters don't enjoy spending time on Grex. Fine. That doesn't mean we need to fight over which one is "better". They're different, just as two humans are different. Each is "better" at different things. Fine. Dave is quite welcome to spend time on both systems. He isn't the only one. He is also welcome to his own opinions, and is free to state them. He doesn't need and "ulterior motive". If you don't agree with his opinions, that too is fine. But please don't start an argument and make accusations that have no actual basis. When Dave claims that he is trying to hurt Grex to promote M-Net, then fell free to lambaste him for it. <set soapbox = off>
What dang said.
M-Net and Grex are probably the only communially run public access systems in the world. If we didn't borrow ideas from each other, who'd we borrow them from?
We'd have to create another public access system, and then steal ideas from them. >8)
Are such systems really _that_ unique? What is it about Ann Arbor that we can support them and others can't?
Not can't, I think. Just don't.
The Ann Arbor factor is probably a historical accident due to the success of M-Net in the mid- to late-80s. A whole pile of people, some technically inclined and some not, became addicted to community-based conferencing. In the early 90s Grex and the present M-Net established user-controlled systems, with part of the early M-Netters going to Grex and the other part staying with M-Net.
(And some doing both)
You have several choices: