Grex Coop10 Conference

Item 41: SEEK THe FACT

Entered by seeker on Tue Oct 7 02:52:13 1997:

Does anyone want to know which one of the staffers deleted the /etc file ?
93 responses total.

#1 of 93 by robh on Tue Oct 7 11:29:15 1997:

Nope, not particularly.  I'm sure whoever-it-is is plenty embarassed
now without having to put up with harassing e-mail and tels.  As long
as they learn form it and move on, I'm happy.


#2 of 93 by n8nxf on Tue Oct 7 11:43:32 1997:

I see no reason to make it public.


#3 of 93 by dpc on Tue Oct 7 13:45:36 1997:

I'd kind of like to know, but not very much.  I would be vastly amused
if it was the same staffer who said, as part of the "whither the Sun
670?" item, that Grex staff was so *very, very careful*, making a 
contrast with the supposedly wild and crazy M-Net staff.   8-)


#4 of 93 by jep on Tue Oct 7 13:54:25 1997:

I would much rather not know.  A mistake was made, and then corrected.
That's all I want to know.  (The "corrected" part is the important part.)


#5 of 93 by richard on Tue Oct 7 15:26:05 1997:

I dont think "staffer x" should be forced out in the open, but he/she
should want to reveal himself/herself in the interst of full disclosure
and honesty.  Noone is going to make a big deal out of it.  We
allmakemistakes.  

It would just be in keeping with the idea of Grex being a completely openb
and above board place that things like this shouldntbe kept secret.  Then
again the staffconf isclosed, so maybe there are lots of secrets not
security related that are kept by staff.

I think if I was "staffer x", I'd feel obligated to explain-- not just to
staff, but to everyone here just what happened and why.  I wouldnt be
comfortable just sitting in the shadows and letting other staff cover for
me.

And I'd want to reveal myself if only tobe able to personally publicly
thank Marcus for fixing the problem and getting my assout of that mess.

It is about honesty andopenness.


#6 of 93 by richard on Tue Oct 7 16:16:46 1997:

"Staffer x" should also reveal himself in fairness to the other 
staffers.  They dont deserve to have the finger of blame pointed at them 
for something they didnt do.

Yet in the future, if a staffer has problems with a user or users, they 
might well say, "....yeah right, I bet *YOU* were the staffer who 
deleted the entire password file back in October" .etc

Staff doesnt need to collectively take the blame for one person's honest 
mistake.


#7 of 93 by richard on Tue Oct 7 22:12:13 1997:

In fact, for staffer x to sit back and let the rest of the people on staff
cover forhim and share theblame, when they did nothing wrong, seems to me
to indicate a certain levelof contempt for his fellow staffers.

He shouldnt wantany of them to individually or as a group feel any heat
for this now or in the future..  


#8 of 93 by robh on Tue Oct 7 22:16:33 1997:

Or maybe it's a sign of solidarity among *all* staffers?
Maybe they know that they will be collectively accused of doing it,
and accept that?  Like the Minbari, who cannot lie, except
to protect the honor of another.

<look out, robh is quoting B5 now>


#9 of 93 by scott on Tue Oct 7 22:21:51 1997:

Perhaps we should dock that staffer's pay?  ;)

It really doesn't matter, long term.  All the staffers are people who mean
well, so singling one out for some kind of censure is pointless.  If staff
doesn't trust that staffer, they will recommend that to the Board.


#10 of 93 by mta on Tue Oct 7 23:19:16 1997:

It seems to me that no member of staff deserves any amout of "blame", 
richard, whether they were the one with the finger-slip this time or 
not.  These things can happen.  It could have been any of us.  
Eventaully, if GREX lasts long enough, it's a good bet that it will.

The staffer in question did what was possible to recover as soon as the 
error was noticed and called in help immediately and in a responsible 
manner.  That's all that's required.  

If this were to become a habit, you can count on corrective measures 
being taken.  Otherwise, it's fixed now and it's over.


#11 of 93 by orinoco on Wed Oct 8 00:27:48 1997:

(Just think how embarassing it would be if all _your_ silly typos were
pulicized)


#12 of 93 by valerie on Wed Oct 8 02:49:42 1997:

This response has been erased.



#13 of 93 by arthurp on Wed Oct 8 03:31:35 1997:

I'll apologize to everyone ahead of time, but Richard shut the Fuck up! 
How can you be such a dork sometimes, and minutes later say something
reasonable?  Part gymnist?  
Anyway, these things happen.  I lost all of my root filesystem at home
do to a similar typo.  I actually thought about doing what Marcus did
with inodes and stuff, but decided it would be easier to re-install, and
remember the contents of all those files than it would be to learn how
to do what Marcus did.  
Further I did exactly what I expect happened at work one day.  I meant
to delete *.* on a floppy diskette, but I forgot that current path was
the windows directory, not a:\.  Re-install again.  Guess it's a good
thing I wasn't around grex that day or it would have been me...


#14 of 93 by srw on Wed Oct 8 04:08:49 1997:

Richard practices.

Not quite as disastrous a type, but I remember once, when I had had root 
for not too long, I started up some miscellaneous job, and then 
something came up, so I went to kill it off. 

I should have typed kill %1, which kills job number 1,  but somehow the 
% did not get into the command. The effect was kill 1, which kills 
process number 1. This effectively took grex out of multiuser mode. 

Since I had been dialed in, I was instantly disconnected, as was 
everyone else. Someone had to go to the warehouse and reboot it. We were 
down for quite a while before this could happen. I didn't even have keys 
at the time. It was pretty embarrassing. I can talk about it now, 
because it was years ago - before the dungeon even.


#15 of 93 by srw on Wed Oct 8 04:11:55 1997:

s/type/typo/ - I can't even type "typo" right. sheesh.
Fortunately, that won't kill the system.


#16 of 93 by scg on Wed Oct 8 04:24:12 1997:

We all make mistakes from time to time.  I've never wiped out anything that
important, but I've certainly done my share of screwing up other things that
then needed to be fixed.  It's part of running a complex system.  The
important part is beign able to put things back together after something like
that happens.  In other words, we, the whole staff, need to make a collective
effort to do much more frequent backups.


#17 of 93 by janc on Wed Oct 8 04:37:31 1997:

Right.  The typo was something any one on staff could have done.  It would
have been a minor problem except that we hadn't done a backup since March.
Any one of the staff members (except maybe Mike O'Leary) could have made a
backup at any time since March.  None of us did.  So the fact of the matter
is that it is perfectly fair for the staff to take the "blame" for this
problem collective, and assign the "credit" for fixing it to Marcus
individually.  We all caused it.  Marcus fixed it.

So, I'm perfectly happy with the current assignment of blame and credit.  It
hits the spot.

Assigning blame is only useful if it helps identify a problem and fix it.
We're going to be a lot more careful about backups.  That's about as much of
a fix as we can make.


#18 of 93 by richard on Wed Oct 8 14:24:38 1997:

I said I thought it was obviously an innocent mistake.  I just think
since it isnt serious, there is no point covering up p the identity
of the staffer who did it.  

We shouldnt have people on staff who arent honest and forthright about
what they did.  I suspect some ofyou might feel differently if
Marcus and staffer x had kept this to themselves and hadnt even
told anyone else on staf who he was.  Why can this stafferbe 
more honest with everyone else on staff and not with the rest of
us who use grex?  

Why is total honesty not the best policy?


#19 of 93 by valerie on Wed Oct 8 14:44:04 1997:

This response has been erased.



#20 of 93 by jep on Wed Oct 8 15:39:28 1997:

I don't think there is a "cover-up".  Just a towering lack of concern for
making someone take the blame for a mistake that has been corrected.


#21 of 93 by richard on Wed Oct 8 18:40:54 1997:

This is not about "making someone take the blame"  I have never 
suggested that "staffer x" be turned in by anyone.  I was only saying 
that this staffer himself should *want* to accept the blame, because it 
*was* his mistake, even if it was corrected.   It wasnt just a minor 
mistake.  This person deleted the most sensitive files on grex, and even 
if it was an accident, you cant trivialize it after the fact.  You cant 
say, "well it could have happened to anyone"  It didnt happen to anyone. 
 It happened to this person.

And he doesnt want to give his name, say "I caused grex to be down for 
three days and ruined Marcus's weekend, and I'm sorry".

It would just be the dignified thing to do.    


#22 of 93 by mta on Wed Oct 8 18:50:23 1997:

What makes you so sure that it was a "he", Richard?  Do you assume that 
Valerie and I are above such errors?  or do you assume that, as women, 
no one else on staff would trust us with enough responsibility to have a 
chance at such an error?

Sheesh.  All, right, shall I turn over my keys, Richard?  Would you feel 
better if someone took the fall?

I will publicly apologize that GREX was down and that Marcus had to 
spend so much time cleaning up.  I'm very sorry.

Now, can we drop it???  Please?!


#23 of 93 by richard on Wed Oct 8 19:12:06 1997:

Because every reference to this staffer has been "he", "him"   I just 
think that when major staff errors occur, the staffer in question should 
come forward.

Why am I attacked for asking for something so simple and logical and 
dignfied?


#24 of 93 by scott on Wed Oct 8 19:39:10 1997:

Because you contradict yourself within a single paragraph?


#25 of 93 by remmers on Wed Oct 8 20:10:41 1997:

(Re #23: I just looked through this whole item and couldn't find
any responses, other than your own, that attached a gender to the
staffer. Did I miss any?)


#26 of 93 by mta on Wed Oct 8 20:25:45 1997:

Nope.


#27 of 93 by valerie on Wed Oct 8 20:40:58 1997:

This response has been erased.



#28 of 93 by mdw on Wed Oct 8 21:20:07 1997:

I don't think it much matters if the staffer was a he, she, an alien
from Sirgil, or me.  Shit happens.  Everyone on grex staff has made
mistakes.  I have made mistakes.  Nobody is perfect.

Total honesty is not a good policy.  Imagine, for moment, if in this
world, if everyone were suddenly compelled to say *exactly* what they
were thinking, and knew to be the truth, to the best of their ability.
Think about it.  You *must* encounter situations, frequently, where you
think thoughts that would only get you into trouble if you were to
verbalize them.  You *must* encounter situations and facts, which if you
were to describe those facts in isolation to another, would lead that
person to an erroneous conclusion.

There is clearly a lot of interest in "who" deleted those files.  Your
(Richard) fascination is evidence of this.  There are also plenty of
people who would hear this fact, in isolation, and conclude that the
person, plant alien, or whatever, that did this, is an inherently bad
and evil person.  This is human nature, in all its glorious
imperfection.  To compell someone to disclose their identity, under such
circumstances, is in fact nothing less than an attack, however much you
might like to pretend it's merely "honest disclosure", or "something the
staffer should want to do himself".

Richard, I have an admission to make.  Grex has a fatal flaw.  Grex has
a serious and fundemental weakness in its design.  Someday, Grex *will*
be destroyed by this flaw.  Richard, this flaw was not an oversight.
Every founder knew about this flaw.  Richard, I was there, I knew about
the flaw, and I am guilty of allowing grex to be created with this flaw.
Every founder knew about this flaw.


#29 of 93 by steve on Wed Oct 8 21:38:05 1997:

   This is bizarre.

   I'm not impressed that "seeker" doesn't have the intregrity to ask
such a question with his/her own name, rather than a psuedo.

   Thanks Marcus.  I knew about the flaw too.


#30 of 93 by robh on Wed Oct 8 21:55:05 1997:

Okay, fair enough.  I confess that I stole the root password and
accidentally deleted /etc.  Since richard loved blaming me for
everything when I was on board/staff, this admission should quiet
him downfor a while.  >8)


#31 of 93 by dpc on Thu Oct 9 02:16:36 1997:

I confess that I clandestinely entered the Pumpkin, used the "fatal
flaw" which Marcus has confessed to in order to gain the root
password, and *deliberately* erased the password file in the 
vain hope that Grex would collapse and M-Net would inherit the
whole local conferencing empire.  Muahahahahaaaa!


#32 of 93 by scott on Thu Oct 9 11:18:16 1997:

No wait, *I* did it!

I hereby resolve not to work on Grex while in the middle of research for my
pharmacology degree.  


#33 of 93 by jep on Thu Oct 9 14:45:36 1997:

No, it was me.  STeve asked me to take care of a couple of files the other
day, and I made a little mistake.  He and the entire staff have pretty
thoroughly berated me in private for being so careless, and I am sure I
will never again be given the root password on Grex.


#34 of 93 by valerie on Thu Oct 9 16:16:20 1997:

This response has been erased.



#35 of 93 by richard on Thu Oct 9 16:17:00 1997:

geez...all I was sugggesting is that individual staffers be accountable
not just to staff, but to the members and users of grex.  Those are
the people who staff'w work affects.  Why cant it just be a policy that\
staff beopen and above board when these things happen?  Grex will run
better and have less controversy.

And IOm still convinced that if the rest of staff didnt know the
identity of staffer x and he didnt come forward, tey 'dbeupset.

(and actually I think it was probably someone who had reason
to be messing with those files, like someone who has a program
interfacing with the password file.  Andhasbeen regularly updating
that program...that limits who it likely was IMO)[A


#36 of 93 by mdw on Thu Oct 9 19:13:58 1997:

There are only two people who have programs that make changes to the
password file.  Unfortunately for your logic train, neither of those
people does any regular maintenance on the password file.

Richard, you made this controversy.  You, and you alone.

Unfortunately, controversy like this is not harmless.  Even if *you*
don't intend to be malicious, and do not yourself intend to question the
integrity and trustworthiness of grex staff, to others, what you have
done, and are doing here, *does* look like an attack.  Remember what I
said just now about "total honesty" and "facts out of context"?  When
people not familiar with grex see the questions you keep raising and
raising, some of them will assume that where there's smoke, there's
fire.  That hurts grex, in more ways than you know.  First, it hurts
grex financially.  People are *much* less likely to contribute to grex
after they read your comments.  Secondly, it hurts grex staff.  At least
one grex staff member very nearly quit because of you, and what you have
done here.  You've started a process here that polarizes grex staff, the
grex board, and grex users.  This process is particularly destructive to
the principles you've stated you believe in.

Grex is, fundementally, not a computer, not a democracy, but a social
organism.  That means it lives and dies according to the whim of its
constituents.  That social fabric has only limited strength.  It is
entirely possible for a single person to `kill' grex, merely by
poisoning the social fabric.  That is the fatal flaw that grex has.
Unfortunately, that flaw is an integral part of the design of grex.  The
flaw is also inherent and inescapable.  Because grex is public, because
grex is group run, because grex is a dynamic balance in a changing
reality, it's impossible to guarantee that grex will exist forever, or
to design grex in such a way that nobody could ever kill it.  The people
who were with grex since the beginning know that grex is mortal, that it
has finite resources, and that it is in some ways very fragile.  I think
it is tempting for people who come and see grex apparently strong and
healthy, to think that it is not important to contribute, or that it
doesn't matter if their contributions are negative, or (apparently in
the case of Richard), it's harmless if that negative contribution takes
the form of words said in a conference.  Sadly, that's just not the
case.

Personally, what Richard has said doesn't usually bother me so much, and
I even agree with many of his ideals.  I do find that in many cases,
Richard's reasoning has serious flaws.  Certainly here, whatever
Richard's intentions were, his effect is directly countrary to his
stated principles.


#37 of 93 by richard on Thu Oct 9 19:51:01 1997:

I know that Grex is fragile.  Suspicion and dishonesty are two things 
that could destroy the structure of this place.  Staff is a cohesive 
unit right now, but it may not always be so.  Therefore it should be 
standard practice not to cover things up.  Not to approach situations in 
anything but a completely open and above board manner.  This is done 
here most of the time.  But there are instances, such as this one, where 
staff puts its own interests (namely protecting one another) above the 
interests of Grex.

I am not attacking staffer x.  I am not saying he should be punished or 
reprimanded or anything.  It was obviously an honest mistake.  But it 
*was* a mistake, and he should feel the responsibility to own up to it. 
Such cover-ups in the future could lead to a lot of accusations and 
distrust.  Its a bad precedent.  Grex will lose members and users if the 
impression is given off that staff really is a group that operates on 
its own agenda, and will willingly cover up for one another.  Its just 
not a healthy thing to be doing.

I'm saying this because I value Grex, and because someone needs to be 
the bad guy and point these things out.  Im not the only one who feels 
this way.  I didnt even enter this item.  Im just the one who is willing 
to take the flak to try and see that what is right is done.

Ive been trying *not* to make a nuisance of myself the last few months 
since I came back to Grex.  It is not my desire to be controversial or 
to have everyone hate me.  Given the abuse Im taking, you must see that 
I do care about Grex.  Im not a masochist..if I was anything less than 
serious I wouldnt be doing this.

Staffer x should reveal himself.  Just because its the right thing to 
do.


#38 of 93 by mta on Thu Oct 9 20:49:03 1997:

> Ive been trying *not* to make a nuisance of myself the last few months 
> since I came back to Grex.  It is not my desire to be controversial or 
> to have everyone hate me. 

I've noticed and appreciated that, Richard.  Thank you.

> I'm saying this because I value Grex, and because someone needs to be 
> the bad guy and point these things out.  Im not the only one who feels 
> this way.  I didnt even enter this item.  Im just the one who is 
> willing to take the flak to try and see that what is right is done.

Perhaps you're not.  It's interesting, though, that you're the only one 
saying anything, other than a coward who doesn't have the guts to ask an 
honest question in a public way.  Perhaps there aren't as many people in 
a stir about this as you think there are.

Staff, as an entity, has taken responsibility for the gaffe and made it 
right.  We have done that specifically to avoid a lot of accusations and 
mistrust of an individual.  

The board appoints the staff, and they too are aware of exactly what 
happened.  If they think there's a problem, they will deal with it.

The users appoint the board.  If the users as a whole are dissatisfied 
with the way the board (and by extension, the staff) are running things, 
they are always free to say so by calling a vote and "throwing the bums 
out" or by calling an issue to vote and mandating how they want it 
handled.

We don't operate by fiat here, no matter how well meaning.  If you want 
things run your way, make sure your membership is up-to-date, convince a 
majority of your fellow mwmbers that you're right, and call a membership 
vote.  

So far, the membership has endorsed the way things have been done here 
in the past by continuing to re-elect a board dedicated to maintaining 
what we think of as GREX's way of doing things.  When membership 
sentiment changes, so will the composition of the board.

So, to summarize, Richard.  We haer you.  We appreciate your concern 
that GREX be the best it can be.  We even encourage you to raise the 
issues you see -- but when you find yourself a lone voice, please drop 
it.  You may speak for a large silent contingent, but probably not.  If 
they agree with you, they'll say so.  Honest!


#39 of 93 by aruba on Thu Oct 9 20:49:49 1997:

I agree with you on one point, Richard:  it's unfair to expect people to
be perfect.  I'd prefer Grex to be a place where people make mistakes and
are forgiven for them, in contrast to, say, the world of government or big
business where almost no one ever admits to making a mistake, and those
that do are crucified. 

But I'd like to ask you about your statement that "someone has to be the bad
guy and point these things out."  And the question I'd like to ask is:

   Why?

I agree that there are times, such as when real corruption or incompetence
is entrenched in government, when I'm thankful that there are people
pushing their noses into dark corners.  But you yourself recognize that
that's not what's going on here - it was just a mistake.  And, as Marcus
said, this kind of bitterness does real damage to the system.

The more we discuss this, the more it looks like the Grex staff and board
are "circling the wagons".  I was reluctant to weigh in before now,
because I didn't want to add to that impression, because that's not what
was intended at all.



#40 of 93 by aruba on Thu Oct 9 20:52:41 1997:

(Misti slipped in.)


#41 of 93 by richard on Thu Oct 9 21:01:35 1997:

Would it be reasonable to say that the identity of this staffer be made 
known to the non-staff members of the Board?  Im assuming this has only 
been discussed in the staff conf or mailing list, so nobody not on staff 
would know?



#42 of 93 by orinoco on Thu Oct 9 21:05:47 1997:

Well, I must say I, too, was curious when I heard of this as to the identity
of 'staffer x'.  Had this been a case of malice, or of incompetence, I too
would have pressed the point and asked about his or her identity.  And if I
were someone who had made such a mistake, I would feel inclined to step
forward.  _However_, and this is the important part, I also trust the word
of the staff that this was an honest and innocent mistake, and because of that
I do not feel inclined to point fingers or make accusations.  If it appeared
that staff were not doing their job properly, then I'd have a reason to want
to know 'staffer x's identity, but _this is not how it appears_, and hence
the only interest I have is that of idle curiousity.


#43 of 93 by scott on Thu Oct 9 21:24:38 1997:

The entire staff was notified very soon after the accident, which makes
perfect sense since the thing to do was get all available forces working on
getting Grex back up.  In the next few days there was at least one bit of mail
addressed "baff" (board and staff).

Actually, this item has been the location of the majority of the discussion.


#44 of 93 by richard on Thu Oct 9 21:58:11 1997:

#43...and in that one piece of mail addressed "baff" was the specific 
name of the staffer given?

Im of the opinion that when something this serious happens, honest 
mistake or not, it should be discussed.  Probably put on the agenda of 
the next board meeting for very very brief discussion.  Staffer X would 
there recount what he did, explain it was an honest mistake, and the 
board would say ok and go on to the next issue.   Even if it was just a 
formality, it would be proper as a point of order, because this was a 
serious incident (I mean how many times in grex's years of exsistence 
has the entire password file been deleted?)  And then the Board could 
address the more important issues, like why havent more backups been 
done and does a formal schedule for regular backups need to be drawn up 
to avoid this in the future?

There is no reason everything shouldnt be laid out, so that everyone-- 
not just staff-- can draw their own conclusions.  Staff wants to close 
off discussion, forestall outside opinions.  Even if this specific 
incident is minor, the fact is that staff's attitude is bad.  Present 
all the facts and let people decide for themselves.  




























































































































































































































































































































































#45 of 93 by scott on Thu Oct 9 22:57:06 1997:

<Scott throws up his hands and walks away, baffled.>


#46 of 93 by aruba on Thu Oct 9 23:42:08 1997:

Re #44:  Why, Richard?  To accomplish what?


#47 of 93 by e4808mc on Thu Oct 9 23:45:09 1997:

Am I too late to confess?  I wanna confess that *I* did it.  


#48 of 93 by janc on Thu Oct 9 23:50:34 1997:

Thanks for the white space Richard.  It was very refreshing after all those
words.


#49 of 93 by suzie on Fri Oct 10 00:28:42 1997:

Now Jan, that wasnt white space.  When we airheads reveal our innermost
thoughts, that's what it looks like.  


#50 of 93 by headdoc on Fri Oct 10 00:31:36 1997:

I am making up armbands for all who will join me in wearing them. 


#51 of 93 by robh on Fri Oct 10 02:55:40 1997:

I want an armband!


#52 of 93 by valerie on Fri Oct 10 02:56:08 1997:

This response has been erased.



#53 of 93 by scg on Fri Oct 10 04:28:15 1997:

And, for what it's worth, to answer Richard's question about whether the
non-staff board members were notified of Scott's identity, the answer is yes.
Scott sent out two pieces of mail, one to at least staff but maybe baff right
after it happened, explaining what had happened, and saying that he had
already called Marcus and Marcus was on his way over.   Scott later sent mail
to baff, the board and staff mailing list, explaining the situation again.
Richard can go on all he wants trying to claim that this was a secret kept
from the board, but it simply is not true.

That said, I really don't see why this had to go public.  People do make
mistakes.  I imagine there are very few people who have been responsable for
any sort of at all complex system who have never done something that screwed
it up.  Some mistakes are certainly a lot more serious than others.


#54 of 93 by scg on Fri Oct 10 04:31:24 1997:

And in the category of typo type mistakes, I hit control-D there before I
intended to.  What I meant to say was that while some mistakes are a lot more
serious than others, the important thing is that it was fixable.  In this
case, the much bigger mistake was the mistake by the staff as a whole in not
making regular backups.  Had we had a recent backup, we would just have had
to restore one directory from a tape and would have been back up quite
quickly.  Even without that, though, this didn't end up being all that
serious.


#55 of 93 by supermom on Fri Oct 10 05:05:37 1997:

From this item, I know that some people like dpc, seeker, and Richard, all
of them I think already knew who deleted the /etc files, but they like 
to stab "that staff" in his/her back. What's the attitude of these people ?
and dpc, you are the M-net staff, if some day the same thing happens to
yourself, what's your feeling ? you want to confess that honestly ? I don't
think so. <sigh>


#56 of 93 by senna on Fri Oct 10 06:15:45 1997:

This item, to me, bears a striking resemblance to such storied pieces of
American history as the Mcarthy hearings.  I just know richard will love that
analogy.


#57 of 93 by n8nxf on Fri Oct 10 11:09:33 1997:

This is absolutely ridicules!  Not even people who deliberately destroy
things on this system are hung out like this.


#58 of 93 by robh on Fri Oct 10 11:14:04 1997:

Staffers are not gentlemen, and they do not understand being
treated like gentlemen!


#59 of 93 by valerie on Fri Oct 10 20:08:00 1997:

This response has been erased.



#60 of 93 by mta on Fri Oct 10 20:10:28 1997:

uh....huh?


#61 of 93 by mta on Fri Oct 10 20:15:44 1997:

Oops, Valerie slipped in.  I was referring to Rob's "gentlemen" comment.

Oh, and Klaus has an excellent point.  We don't publicly hang vandals -- 
but the staff doesn't deserve that much?  Why?


#62 of 93 by richard on Fri Oct 10 20:19:25 1997:

Okay Im sorry if my methods sounded like too much of an attack.  I just 
didnt know why it had to be a secret.  If I was Scott, I'd have felt 
obliged to admit my error because it inconvenienced a lot of people.  
But it was obviously an accident, so its obvious nothing more needs to 
be said about it.  

BTW, because Im not sure what you folks are thinking, no I am not 
*Seeker* and if I had wanted to enter this item, which I didnt, I'd have 
used my name as I always do.  I agree that it isnt ethical to enter such 
items and make such accusations unless you use your own name.

So who is/was Seeker anyway?  I bet it was Robh, probably as a practical 
joke to annoy Scott and knowing someone like me would respond to it.  
Admit it Robh, you are Seeker!  :)


#63 of 93 by valerie on Fri Oct 10 20:39:59 1997:

This response has been erased.



#64 of 93 by dpc on Fri Oct 10 21:24:56 1997:

Well, gee, Richard, I don't know what your point is because after all
Scott *did* confess in #32 above!  And no, supermom, I'm not on the
M-Net staff, I'm on the Board of Directors.  The only recent time
that our staff made a similar boo-boo (leaving a security hole open
allowing the entire System to be erased), he made his mistake public.
        But there is no real conflict between the systems on this.
I don't think Grex people wanted to make a big deal of who accidentally
erased /etc/; neither do I.


#65 of 93 by robh on Fri Oct 10 21:43:13 1997:

<robh thanks karouac for actually putting a smiley in his response>


#66 of 93 by mdw on Fri Oct 10 22:05:05 1997:

Seeker dialed in direct.  Unless seeker has one of Richard's long
distance phone cards, I think it's reasonable to suppose seeker is in
fact local.  I saw speculation from some rather immature people in
m-net's party, speculating that it was another particular grex staff
member.  Perhaps this item was meant to embarass that staff member
instead.  As it happens, that staff member has put in a lot of hours
over the years dealing with computer vandals and with reaping people on
grex, so perhaps he's more visible as the "grex heavy" staff member than
the rest of us.  That's really a shame, because he's actually one of the
nicest people I know, and really doesn't deserve that kind of censure,
at all.


#67 of 93 by dpc on Sat Oct 11 22:17:58 1997:

Hmm.  That's interesting, Marcus.  I don't hang out in M-Net's party,
so I didn't see those comments.  However, as a Grex member I have
complete and utter faith in Scott.  He has put countless hours into
the System and is a President Emeritus to boot.  (And reboot.)


#68 of 93 by senna on Sun Oct 12 06:02:08 1997:

I'm not sure what the big deal is.  The fact that you would do something a
certain way doesn't mean that other people would do it the same way.  Not
everybody holds identical viewpoints.  I don't really care who seeker is, and
the question to me is pretty much irrelevant.  Goodnight.


#69 of 93 by mta on Sun Oct 12 20:22:55 1997:

Well, I think "seeker" showed a cowardly streak in hiding behind a pseudo to
stir up trouble.  One thing I'll say for Richard is that I admire that fact
that when he has something to say, he says it in his own voice and owns up
to any flak that results.



#70 of 93 by rcurl on Mon Oct 13 20:33:48 1997:

It seems to me that it is appropriate for staff members to tell users what
they do on the system - for better or worse. What's the big deal? Some time
was lost in this case - in others some time is gained. I don't even understand
why it has become a big issue, because it isn't. At least, this is the
standard I would like to see maintained. 


#71 of 93 by tsty on Wed Oct 22 18:48:29 1997:

what a mess - despite all the denials and protestations to the
contrary, 'whodunnit' is no damn body's business except staff.
  
and the only reason the event itself woulda/coulda become public
knowledge is because grex staff prides itself (properly so)  with
stating 'what happened' when someting does 'happen.' and that
is a credit to the system.. we gain a knowledge base of
'things that happen.'
  
isolating some single staffer for a 'happenning' is thw worst
sort of political smear opportunity that exists.
  
in ohter words, kerouac, shut the fuck up, ain't none o' yo' bidness,
or mine either, for that matter. 
  
unless, however, you should want to type in just as much text
in PRAISE for mdw (isolated single staffer for a 'happenning') who
single-handedly reconstructed the file .... certainly a worthy
'happenning' which just might 'smear' his political bank roll
upwards, bigger, better and wider.
  
but that is 180 degrees away from your policy, i perceive - too bad,
you had the chance to be a gentleman once. oh, well.


#72 of 93 by mta on Wed Oct 22 18:55:14 1997:

Excellent point, TS.  It's a shame that Marcus' efforts didn't generate 
even half as much stir as a momentary slip of the fingers.


#73 of 93 by richard on Wed Oct 22 19:17:38 1997:

ts I havent responded to this item in 2 weeks...the issue's dead...
read coop more often


#74 of 93 by tsty on Tue Nov 11 03:26:36 1997:

...but you *did* get here - ahhh, teh beauty of conferencing! thankxxx.


#75 of 93 by lilmo on Tue Nov 11 03:35:46 1997:

THANK YOU MARCUS !!!!!  I wasn't even here at the time, but I've been here
before, and I know you put in loads of time for us, as does the rest of the
Grex staff.

How about we start an item for "I remmeber when mdw fixed ..." and delete this
friggin' item, eh?


#76 of 93 by tsty on Fri Nov 21 04:29:59 1997:

i'm not sure we have enough disk space for lists like that <g!>!
  


#77 of 93 by mta on Sat Nov 22 08:13:21 1997:

You're mot certainly right, TS.  Especially for Marcus -- but any staffer who
has been around a while.


#78 of 93 by davel on Sat Nov 22 14:22:35 1997:

Well, a somewhat censored version of some of the staff cf "what I did" items
would make a good start at it.  It would be interesting to have them posted
somewhere public.


#79 of 93 by valerie on Sat Nov 22 22:39:59 1997:

This response has been erased.



#80 of 93 by davel on Mon Nov 24 01:35:14 1997:

(Warning: I said it would be interesting to have them posted, not that they'd
make really exciting reading.  "Removed user moo45 at user's request.  Sent
mail to xyz54 to about mail abuse".  An awful lot of it is routine stuff like
that, unless something has changed.)


#81 of 93 by remmers on Mon Nov 24 02:24:23 1997:

(That last example raises another point: Unless someone does a
*lot* of censoring, making the "What I Did" item public would
publicize the login id's of a lot of people who have --
inadvertently or otherwise -- abused Grex resources. Do folks
think that would be appropriate?)


#82 of 93 by janc on Mon Nov 24 03:38:38 1997:

I would censor most user logins out of it.  A bother to do on a regular
basis, but it would be nice to post some samples.


#83 of 93 by aruba on Mon Nov 24 05:38:30 1997:

Yeah, I agree with Jan.


#84 of 93 by valerie on Mon Nov 24 19:14:46 1997:

This response has been erased.



#85 of 93 by dpc on Mon Nov 24 23:51:54 1997:

Good idea.


#86 of 93 by tsty on Tue Nov 25 00:12:46 1997:

changing them all to  zzzzzzzzzz would have it's merits also, given
the prosaic nature of a majorrity of the scut work y'all have
to do. 
  
i'm not all that fired up about the 'what i did' item becoming
and edited public document. editors goof, most of it is drudgery
(williingly accepted by our *volunteers), some it it involves
un-doing and/or re-doing something to finalize the goal. and
perhaps re-dooing 'it' again...to get it right.
  
that sorty of publicity would unleassh the pit-nickers, slit-shingers,
and 20-20 hind-sighters for a ribald romp .. adn the only
defense would be to *not* do anything (or keep it secret)
and tell them to fsck-off.
  
no, imo, this publicity is not in the better interests of grex.
  
some recent item bythe pseudo 'seeker' bursts to the fore.


#87 of 93 by aruba on Tue Nov 25 06:28:34 1997:

Until I read the "What I did" item I had no idea just how much the staff does.
I think it's quite appropriate to share that sense of respect I obtained with
all Grexers.


#88 of 93 by remmers on Tue Nov 25 10:51:12 1997:

I think it would be useful to post it also. It can't hurt for
people to have a better sense of what the staff does.


#89 of 93 by mta on Tue Nov 25 16:29:23 1997:

TS may well have a point in that *some* people will have a negative reaction
-- but TS, I think they're in the minority.  For the most part I think people
will be either bored by it or started by the amount and dreariness of it. 
It will certainly clear up the misconception that being on staff is somehow
"glamourous".  ;)


#90 of 93 by valerie on Tue Nov 25 23:19:00 1997:

This response has been erased.



#91 of 93 by lilmo on Tue Nov 25 23:34:08 1997:

This idea has taken on a life of its own, and I will *not* be held responsible
for the consequences !!  :-)

I was thinking more of something that was not a behind-the-scenes look, full
of praise for staff to offset all the items wherein complaints are made about
staff.  What you suggest would also serve a purpose, and a good one, but
nonetheless, a different one.


#92 of 93 by valerie on Wed Dec 3 17:00:51 1997:

This response has been erased.



#93 of 93 by lilmo on Wed Dec 17 02:42:58 1997:

Cool!  I've said it before (tonight, even!), and I'll say it again:  Yea,
staff!


There are no more items selected.

You have several choices: