Grex Coop10 Conference

Item 37: Proposal: the Grex Bumper Sticker

Entered by krj on Thu Sep 25 18:49:49 1997:

Back in July, while we were commuting to MSU, Steve Andre and I had 
a flash of inspiration:  imagine a couple dozen cars driving around 
Ann Arbor, and other places, with bumper stickers which read:
 
    www.cyberspace.org

I didn't know a thing about how bumper stickers get made.
But politicians use bumper stickers, so I asked Larry Kestenbaum, 
who responded:

>I always thought the best and cheapest place to have bumper stickers made
>was/is Stanley Sawicki & Son in Detroit.
>...
>Their number is 313 962 2725.  They said for 500 vinyl stickers (i.e. not
>the cheap paper kind that fades and never comes off), one color on white
>(which could be the background, of course), standard size, would be $175
>plus tax.  She didn't mention it, but I think it costs a little more if
>they have to do the design.  If you do camera-ready copy, it should be
>very high-rez and as close to full size as possible, because laddering
>will show up in the vinyl.
>...
>
>Good quality is key to having credible looking stickers.

I put this idea on hold until the ISDN connection was ready to go up,
so that folks webbing to Grex should see decent response time.
 
Here are some questions which need to be resolved:

1)  sticker design -- typeface, color, and who's going to prepare the 
    master?    My vision is of white letters on a blue background.

    Also, perhaps we should advertise www.grex.org instead?

2)  Financing.   I am willing to donate $50 to this project, and I'm 
    willing to front some additional money to be repaid out of the 
    sale of stickers.  Steve suggested that stickers be priced at 
    $1 each.
 
    I think the publicity impact here is more important than 
    trying to make some money on the sale of stickers; I imagine that 
    after the initial burst of sales of maybe 100-150 stickers, 
    that we would have stock available in the Grex store for the rest 
    of time.  
 
I'm willing to lead on this, or I can hand it off to the publicity
committee.  Whatever makes people happy and motivated sticker-displayers.

165 responses total.

#1 of 165 by mta on Thu Sep 25 19:32:27 1997:

Excellent idea!  I'm in for $50 and two or three bumber stickers!

(If you handle it, Ken, it's much more liekly to happen.  I'm still at a 
standstill over the full colour t-shirts.


#2 of 165 by mta on Thu Sep 25 19:36:20 1997:

I'll also fund $1 per new 3-month + membership (or a year or more 
renewal) for a free bumpersticker to be included in membership from the 
the time the stickers become available for 30 days.


#3 of 165 by orinoco on Thu Sep 25 21:23:57 1997:

www.grex.org?  Don't you mean www.cyberspace.org?


#4 of 165 by richard on Thu Sep 25 22:05:45 1997:

but the bumper sticker should say "www.GREX.cyberpace.org"...after all
you cant just advertise the address and not the name!  You'd hurt
grex's feelings and it might crash a few extra times in protest!


#5 of 165 by mta on Thu Sep 25 22:52:12 1997:

Either will work as I understand it.


#6 of 165 by orinoco on Fri Sep 26 01:20:12 1997:

Ah.  I wasn't aware of that.
FWIW, can I get mail at orinoco@grex.org, or just orinoco@cyberspace.org?


#7 of 165 by robh on Fri Sep 26 02:00:02 1997:

Re 4 - www.grex.cyberspace.org will NOT work, unless something has
been changed since I was the webmaster.


#8 of 165 by krj on Fri Sep 26 02:44:33 1997:

The question is, should we advertise ourself to the driving public as:
 
     www.cyberspace.org
            
             or
 
        www.grex.org
              ?
 
The cyberspace name is an asset...
grex is who we are...
 
I don't think we have ever really thought about marketing our 
web address before.


#9 of 165 by senna on Fri Sep 26 05:10:33 1997:

We absolutely have to advertise www.cyberspace.org.  We have the domain. 
Nobody else does.  We'll get many more looks (and many more people remembering
it) if it's www.cyberspace.org.  It sticks in memories.  And since the main
point is to get users, this will do it better than anything else.


#10 of 165 by scott on Fri Sep 26 10:56:35 1997:

On the other hand, www.grex.org will print so much larger...


#11 of 165 by n8nxf on Fri Sep 26 12:37:34 1997:

www.cybergrex.org    Ha ha ha ha!


#12 of 165 by steve on Fri Sep 26 13:41:00 1997:

   Given that two people are willing to front a little more than half the
cost of this venture, I think the board should put up the other $75.
I think we should most likely use the cybersapce.org domain; we
grabbed grex.org more for safekeeping, as I saw it at the time
when we forked over money at a board meeting to raise cash for that.


#13 of 165 by orinoco on Fri Sep 26 14:39:57 1997:

Another reason to use cyberspace is that grex is harder for non-grexers to
remember, being neither an english word nor a common one.


#14 of 165 by valerie on Fri Sep 26 17:26:54 1997:

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#15 of 165 by janc on Fri Sep 26 18:22:10 1997:

A great idea.  I suspect the board would be willing to put some money into
this.


#16 of 165 by srw on Sat Sep 27 00:33:40 1997:

I would be happy to do the artwork if Rob is not available. 
I support this completely and agree that www.cyberspace.org is the best 
choice.


#17 of 165 by richard on Sat Sep 27 01:02:01 1997:

why cant the bumper sticker say:

GREX    WWW.Cyberspace.Org

or:

GREX
www.cyberspace.org


#18 of 165 by kaplan on Sat Sep 27 02:56:06 1997:

Re 6: Yes, you can get mail sent to @grex.org, @cyberspace.org,
 @grex.cyberspace.org, and several other names which all point to the same
machine.


#19 of 165 by scg on Sat Sep 27 04:27:28 1997:

I usually use grex.org because it's easier to type, but www.cyberspace.org
would be a lot easier for people who have never heard of us before to
remember, so we should probably use that.


#20 of 165 by steve on Sat Sep 27 04:39:21 1997:

   I agree.  "cyberspace.org" is a neat sounding domain, and its really
the one we are, I think.  I see grex.org as more of a technical kludge
to prevent other problems.


#21 of 165 by scott on Sat Sep 27 11:19:00 1997:

 I'm not sure about which one I like.  www.cyberspace.org is more 
appropriate, but which one are you more likely to be able to read from a 
distance?


#22 of 165 by davel on Sat Sep 27 12:40:30 1997:

Which one are you more likely to be able to *remember* at a distance, Scott?


#23 of 165 by remmers on Sat Sep 27 12:55:23 1997:

I don't normally do bumperstickers, so I don't know if I'd put
this on my car (how many people here would, I wonder), but I
think it's a neat idea nonetheless.

I prefer www.cyberspace.org.

Regardless whether it's "cyberspace" or "grex", maybe the "ORG"
part ought to emphasized somehow, so that people will be less
like to remember it as "COM". Both "www.grex.com" and
"www.cyberspace.com" get you to places, but those places aren't
us.


#24 of 165 by valerie on Sat Sep 27 13:28:57 1997:

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#25 of 165 by janc on Sat Sep 27 13:45:42 1997:

                       www.cyberspace.org
                         IS NOT LOCKED

(Here the "IS NOT LOCKED" is in caps but in a smaller font than the URL,
so the letters are the same height as the lower case letters of the URL.)

This is inspired by the old "The Green Bike is Not Locked" signs.  I think
it is just a bit more intriguing than a bare URL.  Or to be a little more
obvious:

                           GREX IS FREE
                        www.cyberspace.org


#26 of 165 by richard on Sat Sep 27 15:46:08 1997:

how about...


        What IS the breakfast food of champions?
           WWW.Cyberspace.org


on half of them and, on the other half...

      What is the midnight snack of champions?
             WWW.Cyberspace.org


#27 of 165 by steve on Sat Sep 27 17:43:57 1997:

  I like both the midnight snack idea, and maybe even more the Grex
is free sticker.


#28 of 165 by bruin on Sat Sep 27 17:44:55 1997:

As long as we're not the "Last Meal of Champs."


#29 of 165 by orinoco on Sat Sep 27 17:50:26 1997:

(The Green Bike is not Locked?)


#30 of 165 by rcurl on Sat Sep 27 18:37:08 1997:

I think any appeal to grex being "free" is too strong an appeal to people's
selfish interests. Perhaps something could be done with being among friends
on grex.


#31 of 165 by valerie on Sun Sep 28 01:12:58 1997:

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#32 of 165 by krj on Sun Sep 28 05:30:15 1997:

It seems like the is a broad consensus for www.cyberspace.org.
 
Valerie, I am not going to put the logo on the bumper sticker.
It's not real clear from a distance what it is; color printing 
just seems to add a whole nother can of worms to projects, 
such as last year's T-shirts. 
And, it messes up the symmetry of my design.

The logo would make a fine window decal, though, and that might be 
something T.S. could produce in small quantities.


#33 of 165 by valerie on Sun Sep 28 13:59:25 1997:

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#34 of 165 by dpc on Sun Sep 28 15:47:24 1997:

I guess I'd prefer www.grex.org rather than www.cyberspace.org
because www.cyberspace.org looks like some kind of ad for cyberspace
itself, rather than a particular group.  People might think 
www.cyberspace.org is some kind of a joke.  But either way it's
a wonderful idea!


#35 of 165 by steve on Sun Sep 28 16:41:39 1997:

   Anyone who thinks www.cyberspace.org is a joke is probably
inclined to test that idea.


#36 of 165 by aruba on Sun Sep 28 21:45:41 1997:

Yeah, I like the simple approach: "www.cyberspace.org", in one color, and
that's it.  It'll be stunning, Ken.


#37 of 165 by cmcgee on Sun Sep 28 23:59:06 1997:

I think www. cyberspace.org is more likely to result in people checking us
out.  If you are driving and trying to remember the address until you get to
your destination, "grex" has a much higher likelyhood of being misremembered.
(or forgotten entirely).


#38 of 165 by n8nxf on Mon Sep 29 11:40:34 1997:

                 cyberspace.org
                Everyone Welcome


#39 of 165 by dang on Mon Sep 29 17:00:18 1997:

I like www.cyberspace.org, with nothing else.  I'd put it on my car.  As a
matter of fact, I will.


#40 of 165 by mta on Mon Sep 29 19:06:19 1997:

Just to weigh in, I agree that www.cyberspace.org is far, far more 
likely to be remembered.  Yeah, some may think it's a joke, but as Steve 
says, they'll probably test their theory.  Grex.org is more of 
an "insiders" thing.  Only if you know what grex is will you remember 
it.


#41 of 165 by orinoco on Mon Sep 29 21:54:30 1997:

I like the idea of 'everyone welcome', actually, but it does take away from
the simplicity again.


#42 of 165 by valerie on Tue Sep 30 01:54:31 1997:

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#43 of 165 by n8nxf on Tue Sep 30 12:12:51 1997:

        www.cybercommunity.org  (Says it all)


#44 of 165 by remmers on Tue Sep 30 12:20:08 1997:

(However...)


#45 of 165 by richard on Tue Sep 30 21:43:28 1997:

Do you Grex?
WWW.Cyberspace.org




What is a Grex?
WWW.cyberspace.org


Come Grex with us!
www.cyberspace.org


#46 of 165 by orinoco on Tue Sep 30 22:02:46 1997:

This is a bit irrelevant, but I remember my uncle, a mathematician, who has
a T-shirt that says "The Joy of Sets".  What about "The Joy of Grex"?


#47 of 165 by valerie on Tue Sep 30 22:43:26 1997:

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#48 of 165 by jep on Wed Oct 1 15:03:53 1997:

I've long thought the "Cyberspace Communications" thing was a mistake
because it isn't distinctive.  "Cyberspace" could mean anyone, and a whole
lot of individuals and groups do use it.  ("whois cyberspace" returned
*180* lines, and 34 of those were "Cyberspace Communications".  All but
this one were .COM instead of .ORG sites.

It's cliche-ish name, and is worse because it was a cliche before Grex 
started using it.  Grex is a distinctive name for a distinctive 
organization.  It deserves to be promoted.  If you're on Grex, you're 
here, and there's no mistake about it.  If you're on/in "cyberspace", 
you're probably using a computer and maybe even have something to do with
the Internet (though that isn't guaranteed).

I urge the use of www.grex.org for the bumper stickers, and for Grex in
general.


#49 of 165 by richard on Wed Oct 1 22:33:47 1997:

I think Grex should eventually phase out "cyberspace.org" and basically
advertise itself as what it is, www.grex.org.  This is grex.  There are
too many places out there called "Cyberspace" this and that, like the
cyberspace.com that is an ISP out in Seattle.  Its a cool name but Grex is
Grex's name and that is just as cool.  And less confusing.

It is much easier for users coming here to remember tha t grexis
www.grex.org than it is to remember that grex is actually
www.cyberspace.org


#50 of 165 by mta on Wed Oct 1 22:58:27 1997:

I disagree.  I've liked cyberspace.org from the beginning because it's 
easy to remember, and I still do.

I say if it isn't broken, don't fix it.


#51 of 165 by valerie on Wed Oct 1 23:22:39 1997:

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#52 of 165 by valerie on Wed Oct 1 23:22:51 1997:

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#53 of 165 by robh on Thu Oct 2 00:23:01 1997:

Same here.


#54 of 165 by jenna on Thu Oct 2 01:55:46 1997:

Personally, I say two lines.
cyberspace.org (much mroe catchy)
and something with the word gre in it, (grex) liks 
"come grex with us" or whatnot


#55 of 165 by cmcgee on Thu Oct 2 02:11:19 1997:

Two-line bumper stickers are much more difficult to read than one line.


#56 of 165 by rcurl on Thu Oct 2 06:29:41 1997:

cyberspace.org = grex


#57 of 165 by jep on Thu Oct 2 13:31:58 1997:

I'm likely to put either on my car, which is aged and impossible to damage
with bumper stickers.  I don't mind paying a buck for a bumper sticker.
However, there seems to be enough funding to pay for the bumper stickers
already.  The emphasis has been said not to be income, but publicity.  Why
not give them away?  500 bumper stickers on people's cars will generate
more publicity than 150 on cars and 350 in a box somewhere.


#58 of 165 by krj on Thu Oct 2 21:16:32 1997:

There is $100 of pledged funds (from krj & mta); the information we have today 
is that the cost will be $175 -- + tax, I assume.  If the board wants to buy 
490 bumper stickers for the $75 + tax cost, that's fine with me and the board
can distribute the stickers as it thinks best.
 
(I'm peeling 5 stickers off the top for each of the project underwriters.)

Our laser printer kicked the bucket; who's got the stuff needed to 
produce "camera-ready" copy?  I'll prepare a draft sticker in MS Word.


#59 of 165 by richard on Thu Oct 2 22:13:29 1997:

how bout half of the bumper stickers with 


#60 of 165 by krj on Thu Oct 2 22:42:10 1997:

Because they don't price them that way, Richard.


#61 of 165 by jenna on Fri Oct 3 02:47:38 1997:

what about grex.cyberspace.org
doesn't that work?


#62 of 165 by senna on Fri Oct 3 05:26:01 1997:

We've got rights to one of the most distinctive domains on the internet.  I
don't think we should drop it for anything


#63 of 165 by jep on Fri Oct 3 13:03:39 1997:

No one has disagreed with that, senna.  The disagreement is which name is
more distinctive.

My point is partly that I think most people seeing the bumper sticker with 
"www.cyberspace.org" are going to remember "cyberspace" but use ".com" 
instead of ".org".  It turns out not to be a valid point, since there is
also, to my surprise, a "www.grex.com" out there.  <sigh>


#64 of 165 by aruba on Fri Oct 3 19:00:58 1997:

Yes, the existence of grex.com was what prompted the board to snap up grex.org
in the first place.

I think jep is right about people misremebering the .org part, unfortunately.
There are so many .com sites that a lot of people assume *everything* is .com
these days.  So, even though it's not very aesthetic, maybe the .org part
of our address should be in all caps (.ORG, I mean).  It's ugly, I know.


#65 of 165 by remmers on Fri Oct 3 20:56:12 1997:

I agree. (In fact, I suggested it back in response #23.)


#66 of 165 by aruba on Sun Oct 5 21:22:01 1997:

Right.  I didn't mean to imply it was my idea.  :)


#67 of 165 by janc on Mon Oct 6 01:31:31 1997:

www.cyberspace.org is better than grex.cyberspace.org because (1) it clues
them on what to do with this (put it in a browser) and (2) it is easier to
remember.

I'll vote for the board putting up the rest of the money, and the stickers
being given away to anyone who makes a donation of at least a dollar to Grex,
shows up at any Grex event (walk/board meeting/gno/etc), buys or donates an
auction item, or makes any purchase from the Grex store.  In other words,
anyone who does anything to make it either easy or worth our while to
deliver the sticker to him or her.  I'd think of this as a promotional
item more than a fund raising item.


#68 of 165 by jenna on Mon Oct 6 03:56:46 1997:

I would also offer to sell them (eg give a dollar get a bumper sticker)




#69 of 165 by krj on Mon Oct 6 06:00:52 1997:

Upon reflection, I am leaning towards putting the monochrome version 
of Rob Argy's Grex logo on the left of the design.  Anyone who wants 
only the URL can just cut the logo off.  :)   So it would look 
something like this:

          [ Logo ]    www.cyberspace.org


Of course the visual elements would be nicely balanced, which is 
impossible in this ascii representation.

I know Valerie and others would like color;  I *really* do not want to 
mess with preparing color camera-ready copy, or color printing.


#70 of 165 by scott on Mon Oct 6 10:58:54 1997:

I'll vote for funding for a bumper sticker.


#71 of 165 by aruba on Mon Oct 6 17:56:56 1997:

I will too.


#72 of 165 by srw on Tue Oct 7 02:17:02 1997:

Take a look at the file I just built. It is a grayscale gif file. I will 
print it out in black and white from a higher resolution version to get 
camera ready copy. The sticker itself will be printed in blue ink on 
white, so imagine that the black is blue.

http://www.wwnet.net/~srw/bumpersticker.gif

First let's agree on the design concepts.

I basically followed the design ideas posted here, but I had to deal 
with some issues. (1) You wanted it with light letters on a dark 
background, but the logo is designed to appear on a white background. 
Putting the logo on a dark background looks awful. I don't have a 
version of the logo that is antialiased against a black background 
instead of white. I might be able to do that, but it's a lot of work. .

So I put the logo on a white background on the left, taking up about 30% 
of the width, and put the www.cyberspace.org in reversed out letters on 
a dark background on the right 70%. Between the dark and light fields I 
have currently put a short gradient. It could easily be replaced with a 
sharp line. I like the division of the sticker into light and dark 
fields, but I don't know what you all think of it.

I also added a swoosh line under the "org" to draw attention to it. It 
could be removed if desired. 

Frankly, I surprised myself. I think it looks pretty good. What do you 
think? If we can decide these by consensus quickly, I can get it printed 
out for Ken. 


#73 of 165 by steve on Tue Oct 7 03:00:08 1997:

  It looks *great*.  I think I'd take off the swoosh, but it
looks really really good.


#74 of 165 by jep on Tue Oct 7 13:51:23 1997:

I think it looks terrific.  I didn't like the swoosh, either.  I think it
looks like a mistake.  But the intent is good.  It'd be good to have
something that emphasizes the "org" in the URL.


#75 of 165 by krj on Tue Oct 7 14:17:47 1997:

I kind of like the swoosh, certainly more than putting ".ORG" in caps.
 
Looks like I need to call the bumper sticker makers to get our size 
specifications.  
 
Thanks, Steve!  


#76 of 165 by valerie on Tue Oct 7 14:43:25 1997:

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#77 of 165 by krj on Tue Oct 7 15:00:57 1997:

(Steve, it looks like you may have taken the logo from a color source
instead of the B&W source; in the B&W copy I have, the pillars of the 
building are all the same tone.  ???   I should mention that I am 
viewing on an old B&W Sun monitor.)
 
Could the swoosh have a bit more of an "arch" to it?
(Maybe we can pretend we are a part of the UMich Athletic Department
and get some funding from Nike!!  :) :)  )


#78 of 165 by valerie on Tue Oct 7 15:49:25 1997:

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#79 of 165 by krj on Tue Oct 7 16:09:07 1997:

In coop8, item #143, Rob Argy had the gifs in ~ajax/dir-gifs.
I think grxlogo1.gif is the black & white one.  That directory appears
to be no longer permitted; you might ask Rob about that, or else I 
can upload the copy I have from last year.


#80 of 165 by mta on Tue Oct 7 22:59:02 1997:

That's marvelous, Steve!  I kind of like the swoosh -- though I agree 
that it could look unintentional.  Maybe it would look a bit more 
intentional if it were stronger or more arched, or, as Ken requested, 
more arched.

Anyway, that's GREAT!


#81 of 165 by orinoco on Wed Oct 8 00:24:05 1997:

(Or perhaps even more arched?)

Sounds very neat.  Being automotively disinclined myself, I'll have to content
myself with trying to sell them to my more fortunate friends.


#82 of 165 by valerie on Wed Oct 8 02:31:45 1997:

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#83 of 165 by srw on Wed Oct 8 03:34:52 1997:

Thanks for all your support on this, everyone.

Valerie, YEAH I WOULD LIKE A COPY of the high-res version. thanks.

I did get this logo from a color version. I wasn't aware that Rob had 
done a separate monochrome version. It might look better, so although I 
am fairly happy with this one's different grays. I'd like to see a 
monochrome one. 

I agree that the swoosh I did was less than artistic. I did it too 
quickly. There seems to be support for the idea, so I did it again, with 
a larger brush and more arching as you have suggested. It is definitely 
better, but there is still the question of whether it is better off 
without it. You folks decide.

http://www.wwnet.net/~srw/bumpersticker2.gif


#84 of 165 by janc on Wed Oct 8 04:24:08 1997:

I like it too, but I'm concerned that the font is going to be a bit small to
be easily readable by non-tailgaters.  One thing that might make it a bit
easier to read is to put a bit more space around the dots.  As usual, this
is hard to show in ascii, since I'm talking about fractional spaces, not full
spaces, but I'm looking for something about halfway between:

               www.cyberspace.org
and
             www . cyberspace . org

I think having a bit more space between the components may make it eaiser to
recognize the three familiar words that make it up.


#85 of 165 by srw on Wed Oct 8 06:18:28 1997:

I can easily change the spacing as you suggest. I just did that, and did 
some manual kerning, too. It is now at 

http://www.wwnet.net/~srw/bumpersticker3.gif

What do you think?


#86 of 165 by polygon on Wed Oct 8 14:24:35 1997:

My own preference is still for the basic, cryptic, www.cyberspace.org with
no logo, no swoosh, no other text.

I do agree with Ken, though, that more space around the dots looks better. 

I don't agree that it's necessary to stress the .org, and I really don't
like the idea of capitalizing it.  If you gotta have a swoosh, yes arch
it.  And wouldn't it be possible to do a swoosh that looks like a
brushstroke, with jagged but definite edges, rather than one that looks
like spray paint?  Something along the lines of Japanese calligraphy.

My first choice is no-swoosh, second choice would be a brushstroke swoosh.
The spray painted swoosh just looks bad.

I don't mean to deinigrate srw's fine work on the graphics here, though.
Thanks for turning these ideas into reality that we can argue about!

Another note: the price per sticker falls rapidly with increased quantity.
A thousand stickers would cost much less than twice $175.  Also, once
they've printed up one order of stickers, additional orders of identical
stickers involve less set-up and hence are cheaper (though not as cheap as
getting the additional stickers with the original order).

I have been in politics for 27 years, and I have yet to hear anyone
complain about Sawicki for price or service or quality.  Don't let them
design something for you, though.


#87 of 165 by polygon on Wed Oct 8 14:25:37 1997:

Er, sorry, that was Jan who suggested more space around the dots.


#88 of 165 by jep on Wed Oct 8 15:32:43 1997:

I like the spacing around the dots in bumpersticker3.gif.

I like the Grex logo, except that I'm afraid it'll be too small compared
to the rest of the bumper sticker.

Larry hit it on the head, that the swoosh looks like spraypaint.  I can't
visualize one that would look better, but designing things is a distinct
weakness of mine.

Great job!


#89 of 165 by valerie on Wed Oct 8 17:53:50 1997:

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#90 of 165 by mta on Wed Oct 8 18:35:16 1997:

I agree with Larry that a more "brushstroke" looking swoosh might be 
better, and the extra space Jan suggested really does improve 
readability.  (I never would have thought of that!)

I prefer the shades of grey of the current logo, fwiw.


#91 of 165 by valerie on Wed Oct 8 19:02:07 1997:

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#92 of 165 by krj on Wed Oct 8 22:34:01 1997:

Here's a task for one or more people to do:  download Steve's 
current design, cut it out, and rubber-cement it lightly to a 
car bumper.  Let us know how the prototype looks from a bit of a 
distance.  


#93 of 165 by orinoco on Thu Oct 9 16:42:14 1997:

Returning to an earlier discussion, what abou the idea of a rock-painting
expedition?  I'd be glad to help out with that sort of thing...
(Oh, and my pet turtle is small enough to be non-existant, but I'll plaster
everything else with it)


#94 of 165 by scott on Thu Oct 9 21:16:59 1997:

I've got a few cans of strangely colored paint from the previous owner of my
house...


#95 of 165 by orinoco on Fri Oct 10 23:09:36 1997:

I can contribute some red spray paint that resides in our basement, and
possibly a few cans of boring house paint.


#96 of 165 by srw on Sun Oct 12 04:48:44 1997:

Thanks for the logo URL valerie. I haven't downloaded it yet.

Larry, I appreciate your comments on the swoosh. I agree that a brushstroke
would look better, but I don't have one handy. I am not convinced that we need
anything to emphasize the org either. I figured it was worth a try to get
reactions.  The spray paint was easy to do. Reactions are decidedly mixed. 
I'm inclined to drop the swoosh altogether unless someone can supply a 
brushstroke, in which case I am willing to post a 4th attempt.

Even though it is a bit small, I am strongly inclined to keep the logo.
It's a distinctive graphic element. A "service mark" (albeit unregistered).


#97 of 165 by krj on Sun Oct 12 18:58:28 1997:

I also think the logo serves an emotional purpose for the 
owner/displayer, which is what brought me around to wanting to 
include it on the sticker.
 
But I suspect that the logo on the sticker should be derived from 
a copy which does not have the 3-D shadow effects on the "town 
hall" elements, and on the GREX letters.  Those shadow effects 
seem to get really funky when the logo is scaled down, and when the 
image is converted to B&W -- which is essential for low-cost printing
-- the shadow effects just become fuzz and grunge.


#98 of 165 by krj on Mon Oct 13 21:03:16 1997:

I uploaded a copy of the B&W logo which I have to:  ~krj/logo/grxlogo1.gif


#99 of 165 by valerie on Tue Oct 14 16:18:24 1997:

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#100 of 165 by srw on Wed Oct 15 19:56:01 1997:

I'll take a look at it as soon as I can, and see if I can come up with 
something we can all be happy with. 


#101 of 165 by dang on Mon Oct 20 17:08:56 1997:

FWIW, I think it would be better without thw swoosh, but I like the logo. 
I'll use it either way, but I agree with Ken about the emotional purpose of
the logo for me, at least.


#102 of 165 by dang on Mon Oct 20 17:15:00 1997:

I've put Ken's B&W logo on my UM webpage, if people want to look at it.
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~dang/grxlogo1.gif

I think I like to normal one better, even on the bumper sticker size.


#103 of 165 by albaugh on Mon Oct 20 17:29:16 1997:

Re: the swoosh, it's OK by me.  But I'd prefer it to be either straight or
at least symmetrical.  What's there now looks too much like a scribble...


#104 of 165 by danr on Mon Oct 20 17:55:34 1997:

If you're taking votes, I'd votes for just plain old

    www.cyberspace.org

in a big sans-serif font.  As big as will fit on a standard-size
bumper sticker.  The reason for this is that making it as big as 
possible
will make it easier to read and more memorable because of it.  imho, the
logo is superfluous to the message.


#105 of 165 by krj on Mon Oct 20 20:31:59 1997:

Right, but we also have an emotional desire of Grexers to put 
the logo image on their car, to say "look, I'm a grexer!"
I include myself in this too.  (I think I said this already.)
So we give up a little size on the URL, but in exchange we make the 
sticker more appealing to Grexers, so that the sticker will be
attached to more cars.
 
Has *anyone* downloaded the prototype and stuck it on their bumper,
and looked at it from 50-100 feet away?


#106 of 165 by mary on Mon Oct 20 21:13:52 1997:

I too think just the URL, no logo, would look the best
and get the most attention.  But I don't use or display
bumper stickers so maybe I should abstain.


#107 of 165 by srw on Tue Oct 21 04:08:16 1997:

I don't like the B&W logo very much. I really do like having some 
version of the logo on the bemper sticker, though. I also like the split 
black/white background, even though it was my idea. :-)

I haven't tried printing it out on paper and looking at it from a few 
car lengths away. It doesn't seem like it would be hard to read, though.


#108 of 165 by dang on Tue Oct 21 19:30:07 1997:

I'd do it, but ink is expensive. :)  I'll do it next time I'm in a lab.


#109 of 165 by orinoco on Tue Oct 21 20:21:58 1997:

To tell the truth, I don't like any version of the logo I've seen all that
much.  So, I'm more in favor of just the straight URL, but I'm also a bit
biased.


#110 of 165 by mta on Tue Oct 21 20:37:54 1997:

How are you biased, orinoco?  By not liking the logo, or in some way 
that influences your reaction to the logo?

FWIW, I like the greyscale version of the colour logo, I love the two 
tone look, and I *really* look forward to getting these made up.


#111 of 165 by krj on Tue Oct 21 20:55:18 1997:

As I mentioned once before: folks who dislike the logo can cut it off.  :)


#112 of 165 by krj on Thu Oct 23 19:24:35 1997:

Is there a general consensus that the design process is about done?
 
My thought about the greyscale version of the color logo:  The building 
elements look nice, but the "G R E X" letters tend to look blurry and 
indistinct.  How hard would it be to take the greyscale building and 
put some nice, solid, impactful, flat "G R E X" letters in there?
 
(Besides the bumper sticker, this would also impact my flyer and 
bookmark projects; the greyscale & shadowed letters tend to turn to 
mush as they get smaller.)


#113 of 165 by janc on Fri Oct 24 01:41:57 1997:

After our TV show, the fellow who had been cueing misti said he was a student
at Huron High, and that they could do things like bumper sticker and t-shirts
and business cards at a low price.


#114 of 165 by steve on Sat Oct 25 06:38:40 1997:

   Interesting.  Back when I did time there, the graphic arts teacher was
truly fantastic, and lead the students there to doing an excellent job at
the things they did.  That might be worthwhile to invastigate.  Maybe not
for this job, but if this run of stickers proves worthwhile, then we might
do it again?


#115 of 165 by valerie on Sat Oct 25 20:33:58 1997:

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#116 of 165 by mary on Sat Oct 25 23:48:22 1997:

I caught the 3:00 p.m. performance.  You guys were great!


#117 of 165 by valerie on Sun Oct 26 04:01:40 1997:

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#118 of 165 by mta on Mon Oct 27 18:56:31 1997:

Valerie, can I come over for a viewing?  Larry watched, but didn't tape. 
 He didn't think of it.


#119 of 165 by valerie on Tue Oct 28 05:10:58 1997:

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#120 of 165 by mta on Tue Oct 28 17:06:07 1997:

OK, let me know when.  Thanks!


#121 of 165 by ajax on Thu Oct 30 02:19:01 1997:

  Valerie suggested I take a look at this item, as I made the original
logo.  I took a few minutes to deshadow/decolor a version of the 3D
logo.  It retains some depth, but taking away the gray shadow against
the white background improves the clarity.  As Ken said, the shadow
blurs the text when printed in a small size or in one color.

  I also did a version in black and white, as opposed to using shades
of gray.  Depending on the printing technique used, you may not be
able to do very good grays, in which case the "swoosh" as currently
envisioned, and the white-to-black fade, may not look good either.

  Check out http://www.apin.com/grex/sticker.html to how they look in
modified versions of srw's gif image.  For a large GIF of the
grayscale, get http://www.apin.com/grexgray.gif, or for the black &
white version, get http;//www.apin.com/grexblac.gif.  I'd suggest
doing the final design in a higher resolution than the current GIFs.

  By the way, I have no opinion on whether or not to include the logo.
One of the more memorable billboards I've seen was simply "www.yh.com"
in big letters - the more mystery, the better!  On the other hand, the
"if you don't like it, lop it off" argument is quite compelling,
allowing the sticker placer to choose.


#122 of 165 by krj on Thu Oct 30 06:51:15 1997:

Rob, thanks!  You might want to correct those URL's, there is a "grex" 
directory missing from the greyscale and the B&W.  I'm looking forward to 
working with these B&W logos.


#123 of 165 by valerie on Thu Oct 30 17:59:10 1997:

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#124 of 165 by srw on Thu Oct 30 18:41:40 1997:

Of the three in the bumper.html page, I like the middle one the best.
I appreciate the improvement in deshadowing the logo text. I just didn't 
have time for that. Thanks Rob.  I like Rob's swoosh better than mine, 
too. I would be perfectly happy without a swoosh. I only did the first 
swoosh to give people food for thought. It is OK, but not essential, 
IMO. If we do go with it, Rob's is clearly better.

I don't like the reversed logo in the third image.

I picked the most effective font that I had, but I don't have a great 
collection. Feel free to try another font. I won't mind.

I agree that a higher res version should be printed out for the 
camera-ready copy.


#125 of 165 by krj on Thu Oct 30 21:32:54 1997:

I agree Rob's swoosh is better; I'm willing to leave the .org swoosh 
off, I'm not powerfully committed either way.
 
I agree with srw that the middle sticker (bumper4) is the way to go.
 
Folks with great font libraries, feel free to play with the 
www.cyberspace.org text.  
 
I'm thinking in terms of trying to take our master copy to 
Stanley Sawicki in Detroit in about a week..


#126 of 165 by valerie on Fri Oct 31 13:25:50 1997:

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#127 of 165 by srw on Tue Nov 4 17:24:27 1997:

I think it would be very cool if someone else (perhaps Rob) would print 
out camera ready copy for krj. I have no more time to spend on it. 
However, if no one can do it, I will print out what I have when it is 
needed. At this point I'm figuring we'll drop the swoosh, unless there 
are a lot of complaints.


#128 of 165 by valerie on Wed Nov 5 04:41:38 1997:

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#129 of 165 by krj on Wed Nov 5 09:52:24 1997:

I need to call Sawicki and get the exact dimensions for the sticker.


#130 of 165 by mta on Wed Nov 5 17:57:57 1997:

the "nice" paper needs to be bright white for best copying.  


#131 of 165 by valerie on Wed Nov 5 21:17:16 1997:

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#132 of 165 by krj on Tue Nov 11 20:31:07 1997:

I called Sawicki.  The standard bumper dimensions are 3.75" x 14.5".
Turnaround is 5-7 days.  
 
I note that this will not fit on Valerie's 8.5 x 11 piece of paper
(response #128).


#133 of 165 by krj on Wed Nov 12 04:46:37 1997:

A digression, back to the logos.  I played with the Very Large Black and
Grayscale Logos today, and I put together a first draft of the long-
promised music conference flyer.
 
Both logos have problems in B&W flyers.  In the Greyscale logo, the 
"G R E X" letters are the dimmest elements in the display; as I 
shrink the logo down to a useable size, about 1/8 of the gif on the 
web page, they pretty much vanish.  (I'm doing my shrinking in 
.jpg form, as we discussed earlier.)
 
The all Black & White version of the logo shrinks nicely, but 
because there is no shading distinction between the building 
pillars and the "G R E X" letters, the name of our organization 
looks kind of like    "  G I R I E I X  ".

My proposal is that somebody more skilled than me in graphics 
come up with a version using grayscale building elements, but a 
solid black "G R E X" lettering.
 
If this new version could be made available on the web in smaller 
sizes suitable for flyers and bookmarks, that would be a help to me 
too.  Thanks for your consideration... in the meantime I am going 
to have a few flyers made from my draft, as soon as I figure out how 
to get Word 97 to de-clickify something.
 
  (Can you believe it?  Word 97 is "clickifying"  
   http://www.cyberspace.org    ON MY FLYER.  ON MY HARDCOPY PRINT.
   I suppose that in windows 98 one will be able to put the mouse 
   right on the sheet of paper and click on the link.)



#134 of 165 by aruba on Wed Nov 12 08:36:59 1997:

<g>


#135 of 165 by remmers on Wed Nov 12 10:13:14 1997:

(Indeed. Word 97 makes all kinds of uncalled-for assumptions
about what I want, and seems to think it is smarter than I am.)


#136 of 165 by larsn on Wed Nov 12 15:44:56 1997:

Re #137: Well, you'd have to make sure the paper is compliant with the PC
97/98 specification, or Windows 98 won't run on it, I think...


#137 of 165 by valerie on Thu Nov 13 18:56:06 1997:

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#138 of 165 by lilmo on Mon Nov 17 01:04:27 1997:

Not having Word 97, I can't be sure about this, but there SHOULD be an option
to turn off those unwanted features, probably somewhere near where one would
turn off "Smart Quotes", and other error-catching features (like capitalize
days of the week, uncapitalize the second letter of a word (e.g., THe), fix
standard spelling errors (like teh)).


#139 of 165 by krj on Mon Nov 17 01:15:34 1997:

Yup!  I forget precisely what it was called, but I found the auto-correct
features pretty directly with the aid of the built-in help function.
The product ships with just about every auto-correct feature turned on.


#140 of 165 by dang on Mon Nov 17 23:35:11 1997:

Which is why the first thing I do with an MS Office product is go and shut
off all the autocorrect features. :)`


#141 of 165 by scg on Tue Nov 18 00:06:30 1997:

Some of the autocorrect features, like changing teh to the, are quite useful.
Of course, I couldn't have written this response with them turned on.


#142 of 165 by valerie on Tue Nov 18 00:46:16 1997:

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#143 of 165 by krj on Tue Nov 18 16:41:20 1997:

Thanks, Valerie!  I'll try to incorporate one or more of these in 
my next flyer print run.
 
Did you try any of them in the bumper sticker?
 
To get the bumper sticker unstuck: what sort of 8x14 paper should I 
go buy and deliver to you, for printing of the master?


#144 of 165 by valerie on Wed Nov 19 17:47:54 1997:

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#145 of 165 by krj on Thu Nov 20 00:52:23 1997:

Well, I don't know where you get 14.5 inch paper.  Another idea I had was to 
split the bumper sticker in the black space just to the right of the 
white/black fade, and print it in two pieces.


#146 of 165 by mary on Thu Nov 20 01:01:12 1997:

Maybe Kinko's could help you out.


#147 of 165 by tsty on Fri Nov 21 04:26:04 1997:

first of all, the bumper sticker physical dimensions are not hte
dimensions *abailable* for printing .. there are margins
and stuff , ok.
  
second, if the RATIO of the print is kept at the
ratio of the physical dimensions of hte bumper sticker, then
the printer *ought* to be able to scale things correctly.
  
thirdly, even if you print on 11 inch paper,  - at FULL scale - 
(and let the print bleed off the end of hte paper), print it twice:
so that each print, wen cut-n-pasted (physically at the printer's)
will assemble into a full sized master.
  
oh, when you print the original twice .. flip the 2nd
print 180 degrees so the *other* end gets bled off the paper <g>.
  


#148 of 165 by mta on Mon Nov 24 06:02:52 1997:

Is everyone aware that GREX.ORG doesn't get to our web page?  can we fix that?


#149 of 165 by scg on Mon Nov 24 19:21:15 1997:

grex.org works for me.  I've got one of the authorative name servers for it,
so that might not be a good test, but all the other name servers have the same
information.  Is it still not working for you?  What do you get instead?


#150 of 165 by mta on Mon Nov 24 19:51:16 1997:

When I tried yesterday I got "File not found"  I will try again with a
different browser.


#151 of 165 by mta on Mon Nov 24 22:03:52 1997:

OK, MSIE found Grex.org just fine today.  I've had some problems with Netscape
finding pages before, so maybe that's what happened yesterday.


#152 of 165 by srw on Tue Nov 25 06:57:22 1997:

Hmm. Netscape 3.01 on my Mac found grex.org with no problem.


#153 of 165 by lilmo on Tue Nov 25 23:13:49 1997:

Re #145:  If you really want to print at 1:1 scale, and it *is* 14.5", then
get a little bit of 11x17 paper (the size of two 8.5x11 pages side-by-side,
it is used often for newsletters).  Of course, as TS said, the printer ought
to be able to scale it if we can't get exactly the right size.


#154 of 165 by valerie on Tue Nov 25 23:15:16 1997:

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#155 of 165 by lilmo on Mon Dec 1 04:22:12 1997:

No problem.  Sometimes in the heat of discussion, obvious solutions get
overlooked.  I was just afraid no one had suggested it b/c there was some good
reason not to use it.


#156 of 165 by dang on Mon Dec 1 18:55:36 1997:

(or you could attach two sheets of normal paper together...)


#157 of 165 by krj on Thu Mar 26 18:22:36 1998:

The board minutes indicated that there was curiousity about what has 
happened to this idea.  
 
Right now what is needed is for someone (possibly Valerie) to print out 
a high-resolution master of the last version of the design, and 
then someone (possibly me) to make two trips to Stanley Sawicki's in 
Detroit -- one to drop off the master, and one to pick up the finished
stickers.
 
I've let this slide in part because I've been discouraged by the 
total lack of response to my two previous publicity initiatives, and in 
part because Winter is a lousy season for bumper stickers.
 
But now that Spring is here I can probably be prodded into stirring from 
hibernation.


#158 of 165 by valerie on Sat Mar 28 13:53:31 1998:

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#159 of 165 by keesan on Sat Mar 28 16:13:55 1998:

Sorry not to have read the previous 157 responses, but will you also offer
a bike-sized bumper sticker?


#160 of 165 by krj on Wed Apr 1 20:02:28 1998:

I doubt very much that there will be a bike-size sticker: it costs $175 for 
the one design in one size.  Probably we will suggest that you take a pair 
of scissors to the auto-size sticker and hack away as best you can.
I realize that's not a very environmentally-friendly answer.


#161 of 165 by keesan on Wed Apr 1 20:22:12 1998:

We have tried the conversion process, and there is generally not enough left
to read.  Actually, you could not read a bike sticker too well anyway.  I
suppose if we really wanted to do some good advertising a trailer would work
better.  I presume this is mainly a fund-raiser.


#162 of 165 by krj on Fri Apr 3 16:29:09 1998:

No, it's three parts advertising and one part ego-massage for the Grexer
displaying this sticker on the motor vehicle.  


#163 of 165 by valerie on Sat Apr 4 13:49:29 1998:

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#164 of 165 by mta on Sat Apr 4 15:32:40 1998:

Yup -- now that I work downtown I sometimes watch all the people walking 
by with this creeping sense that there are Grexers "right there", but of 
course I'll never know for sure.  <grin>  The T's help, and the 
bumperstickers will also help.  (They don't end up in the laundry....)


#165 of 165 by krj on Mon May 4 19:34:13 1998:

I've looked at my May schedule.  I admit defeat: further work on this is 
tabled until June.  *sigh*


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