It looks like Grex has a really good opportunity to speed up our net connectivity. A fellow named Dorian Kim has a very, very impressively connected home (I think there were T1's to multiple places on the Internet, but I don't remember the details). Through Jared Mauch, he has offered to provide Grex with a 128K ISDN connection, if we pay Ameritech for the ISDN lines both at our end and at his house, and if we provide the ISDN routers for both ends of the connection. This would give us a much better Internet connection than we have now (currently we have a 28.8K link and the actual speed up is more than what the numbers alone would suggest, because there wouldn't be the same compression delays you get with modems). So this would be a great improvement for Grex, making our net connection for both incoming and outgoing use much, much faster. To get the ball rolling, the board authorized the staff to start the work to get the ISDN line from the Pumpkin to Dorian's place. Several people present at the board meeting (Misti Anslin, Steve Gibbard, and Jared Mauch) each tossed in $40 to cover the phone line installation fees. It will likely be three or four weeks before the line can be installed, due to Ameritech delays and Dorian's vacation plans. The new connection will also cost us about $50 a month in additional phone charges. We think we can cover this, though a few more memberships would make it a lot easier. But the line itself won't do us a bit of good without an ISDN router on each end of it. These are kind of like the modems on either end of a regular connection, but they do much more much faster, and, of course, cost more too. The device of choice in our price range is the Ascend Pipeline P50, so we want to buy two of these. (Jared offered us the temporary loan of one, but we really need to have ones we can keep.) We expect them to cost under $600 a piece, not including sales tax and what not. The board, after much debate, authorized purchase of two ISDN routers on the condition that we can raise at least $800 of the cost in pledges from users. Note that if you pledge, you will only be asked to pay if we actually reach the goal and buy the ISDN routers. If the deal for the connection falls through, the you aren't required to pay up on your pledge (though we're always willing to take money). But please only pledge if you expect to be able to pay. We really expect this deal to finally work (we even have a backup -- if Dorian changes his mind, Jared has made us the same offer). So whadya think? Can we find $800 to buy Grex a faster net connection? If you can't afford much, please pledge what you can afford. It adds up.203 responses total.
I'll start: I'll pledge $50
I'll pledge $40.
Oops, correction: I should have said "Misti Tucker" instead of "Misti Anslin".
Who is Dorian Kim and why is he offering this? What are the risks in this deal? What if he pulls the plug after we sink hundreds of dollars into equipment we won't be able to sell or put to any other use? Will he be able to listen in on our traffic? Something that sounds too good to be true ...
Those are really good questions <I'm assuming someones gonna answer them.......> I'll pledge $20
I'm in for $20.
$20.
What's the difference between an ISDN modem and a T1 modem? Where I used to work, at Zantop Airlines has some T1 thingies they will not be needing RealSoonNow.
I believe there has been a discussion of the details of the ISDN proposal in the coop conference. Tim, as brief as possible: ISDN and T1 are two different phone company services. T1 is approximately 10 times faster; ISDN and T1 are both wired and programmed differently coming out of the wall jack, and equipment for these connections will not be interchangable. (Waves hands to explain away T1/PRI. :) ) I pledge $50.
re #4 and #5 those have been adressed in the coop conf, please look in there. As I pledged last night athe Bod meeting, I pedge $40
Actually, Jared, I just re-read item #10 here and most of what creole asked has not been addressed. I think I know the answers to those questions but maybe could address them specifically. Maybe in item #10 so as not to drift this fundraising item into an merits-of item.
$40.
Daniel, Dorian is a local person who has been involved with the net for some time now. I'm not sure of all the places he has worked, but I know he's done things at CIC-net. As to why he's doing this, I think its fair to say that he links the concept of Grex, and has the ability to help us out. There are people like this, who are willing to assist others when they can. They're rare, but they do exist. If Dorian pulls the plug on this, we'd have to find a commercial entity (most likely an ISP) who'd be willing to offer us a net connection at a discount price. Forunately, there is already one in the wings, and the cost would be about $130 a month. The good news here is that ISDN connections have gotten cheaper over time, such that if we do need to jump to a commercial service its about certain that it will cost less then, than now. Also, the two routers we'll have will be usable at some other place. Could he sniff traffic going to Grex? Sure. But he's a professional and isn't going to do that. Part of being in the network world is the same "sacred trust" that others have (like Grex staff), when working on machines. Grex has a most generous offer here. Grex has gotten offers similar to this before, going all the way back to the Sun-2 system that Mike Bernson donated to us, to the Sun-3's that General Dynamics gave us (pieces of which we're using right now), to the neat things that we've gotten over the years and turned into cash at various JCC's. Dorian's offer is in this tradition.
A real ISP might, maybe, just barely be within our reach if we could find one
to cut us a special deal. We'd have to scramble hard every month to come up
with the monthly cost. This deal is no big strain on our monthly costs. The
up front cost is a bit higher, but the monthly cost is something we can pretty
easily handle. We are poor. We have to take what's cheap. This deal may
not work for Grex forever, but it will work for a while, and the costs of
connectivity are only coming down.
Total pledges so far:
$240
I, too, would like to know more about Dorian and why he's so well connected. Can anyone tell us more than STeve did? Jared?
(I get $360, Jan.)
Hmm...on recount I see:
resp login amount
====================
1 janc $50
2 aruba $40
5 toking $20
6 tao $20
7 dang $20
9 krj $50
10 jared $40
12 steve $40
====================
$280
Did I overlook another $80 someplace?
I don't know much of anything about it, but some people who have lots of
connections in the internet business, and no children or other expensive
hobbies seem to collect bandwidth. Dorian seems better connected than
some ISPs.
I will toss in $20.00
Beware any promised installation times from Ameritech. My experience is that they feel free to run many weeks late, but get responsive after a complaint call to the Mich. Public Service Commission.
The delays we'll be recieving from Ameritech was one of the reasons it was decided to go ahead and install the phone lines now, rather than later. We won't be able to install until after Dorian returns from vacation anyway, but if we wait until then to order we'll be behind the 30,000 new students requesting phone line installations.
I'm in for $30.
Since folks won't read the other item, here's the deal about the connection 1) It's not going away anytime soon, the soonest time it'd go away is when dorian moves in about a year, and that will just be a line move, and that's if he moves. 2) as for network security, dorian and I have full access to all your packets already, grex's internet provider uses cicnet as their provider, we both work there right now (as in this very second), so I could if I had the time to waste go post everyones passwords, sure, so could mci, so could any inbetween network provider? I don't have the time, and the time to bring up that discusson has long passed, so take your medication and settle down.
I'll pledge $50.
Heh... Jared knows we know where he lives. ;-) All right, that last pledge gets us past the $300 mark. Not bad for 24 hours of begging...
Ha! Another pledge snuck in as I was typing #24. $380, which is almost half way there.
re 17:
Jan, the $80 that you missed was from me and whoever the third person
who threw in $40 at the board meeting was (Misti?).
Not bad. lets see if we can't get some pledges from people who normally aren't bumming around cfs?
Re #17,26: Steve's right, you missed $40 from mta and $40 from scg. Re #22: Jared, there is a clear difference between packet-sniffing at your job and packet-sniffing at home: one can get you fired, the other cannot. In other words, if you or Dorian or some other employee of ICNET or CICNET were to do something unethical using the resources of your employer, we would have some recourse - we could tell your employer about it. With this new situation we are getting into, there is no such recourse. I'm not in the least suggesting that I expect either of you to do anything unethical. I just don't think it was unreasonable to bring the matter up. I still would like to know a little more about why Dorian is so well connected. Is there a good reason why the connection "won't be going away any time soon"?
Oops, I thought that $120 raised at the board meeting was toward the phone
installation charges, but it makes more sense for them to be applied to the
ISDN modems.
OK, so we now have:
janc $50
aruba $40
toking $20
tao $20
dang $20
krj $50
steve $40
giry $20
polygon $30
srw $50
mta $40
scg $40
================
$460
Please, if you can't afford $20, feel free to donate $5 or whatever you can
afford.
I'll pledge $10.00, and include it with the $6.00 I pay for monthly dues come August 1.
i pledge $20 and good luck. so far so good!
Ok, I dont know how i got involved in this, but ethics suggest that since I am a heavy user here I should chip in. I will put $50 in the coffer .... Kshitish (Tish)
Hey incidentally I think the questions being raised are quite valid.. its never too bad to be cautious in this world!!! -Tish
I got a mail from faster@cyberspace.org saying that I'm a heavier user of GREX :( Are you sending mails to everyone or just heavy users :) *singing* *ghar se nikhalthe he kuch dhoor chalthe he raste mein hai uska ghar* I pledge $100.
I'm trying to convince more Indians from party..well should see the luck :)
hell, *sighs* ill throw in 20. do i get membership with that?
alright i pledge a 100 dollars...but tell me how to send it from india i could send you a cheque for the amount in rupeees will that do..tell me all the best for the venture..:)
better send those rupees in cash...a foriegn check would be hard to cash. Wonder what the exchange rate for rupees/dollars is?
Re #37,38: Richard's right, Mikal, the bank tells me that a check in rupees cannot be easily cashed. nt has a method for getting money out of India - Sri, can you help Mikal out?
re 28
1) to say the least, neither of us are interested in grex at all,
if you're worried bout us sniffing, you need to worry about every other
backbone operator
2) as for connected, dorians cicnet t1 is staying there, and he's
getting another t1 from digex, and possibly one from his next employer..
we're both addicted, and the connection will be able to be at either
my place or his, and you should get decent connectivity.
If you run into problems, I can talk to a few folks on your behalf
also here at iagnet.net, branch, icnet, etc.. and get you a deal from
them, or someone else. It's not that much of a problem.
and as for the passwords, that's why you should use ssh instead of
telnet, check out http://www.ssh.fi/
Thanks for the large donations from ungrez and nt... thanks for doing the legwork, nt. I might have some money left over, but I won't be sure till I get my paycheck.
Richard, I think 1$ = 35.65 Rupees. As Richard said if there is a way that GREX could convert Rupees into dollars its fine "ungrez" can send the cash thru registered post. Mark A Conger, Contact "State Bank of India" in NewYork.. I guess they will take Indian rupees and will give you USD. If nothing works then I will take care of this.
Of ocurse, if Grex is suddenly that much faster, word will get out and a *lot* more people will come here for email and such and grex could get swamped...thereby slowing things down again and defeating the purpose of a faster connection. It is just a question of whether the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. Is a faster connection worrth increased demand for services like email?
I'm pretty sure I heard some staff talk about a way to deal with maintaining the speed of GREX while dealing with new mail demands. Something about putting mail on a separate machine so that mail can get swamped all by it's little lonesome and the rest of the system would be minimally effected. How far off is that possibility, folks?
Not that far--I need to enter an item in the Garage conference about it. Back to the fund raiser...
I'm in for $20.
anyone got a tab on th total, so far? <just curious>
Because of finincial discrepancies which are entirely the bank's fault, I'm not sure what I can pledge yet because I'd like to know what the Hel is going on with my money. (Norwest in Minnesota *not* Great Lakes here)
I'm in for another $20. (I too though that I had donated to the phone lines so this was budgeted.)
We just hit $800, so this is an official fundraiser. If you have pledged, please send your money to Cyberspace Communications P.O. Box 4432 Ann Arbor, MI 48106-4432 If you haven't pledged yet but are thinking about it, please don't let the fact that we have reached $800 stop you. The real total for setup costs will be somewhere around $1350, and the less of that that has to come out of Grex's current bank balance, the better. Please keep the donations coming.
Indeed, keep them coming. Thanks to everyone for their help.
I'll kick in $40
I'll pledge $50. (In one item Richard thinks Grex needs to be faster, then in this one it will only cause trouble if Grex is faster. (sigh))
I've got $40, since my employer just paid me my my unused personal-leave days. What a wonderful employer! How could it have known?
Re 53 - Perhaps this is an admission on richard's part that he wants to make trouble for us. >8) Count me in for $20.
Re #54: Was that a pledge, fitz?
More than a pledge, if the fund drive fails, I specified in my letter that the check can be put into the general fund for indiscretionary spending. The check is in the mail. Really. It is. Live it up. Buy some spare electrons. It's too late to stop it: The USPS now has control. Do not adjust your mailbox. Hahahaaaa. You'll never stop me now, sleep deprivation has taken over and I'm going on 32 hours non-stop.
Well, thanks fitz - and get some rest. Thanks to everyone else, too. Keep the pledges coming!
Yes. Thanks to all. I sent e-mail to about 90 of the people who spent the most hours telnetted into Grex in June. Unfortunately, I screwed up the setup of the "faster@cyberspace.org" address I asked them to respond to, and didn't fix it while at Grexstock. Oh well. At least we reminded a few more people that Grex does need donations. I'm glad people haven't stopped donations at the $800 goal. Sometimes some of the pledges don't get fulfilled, and it is good to have some more margin.
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And I wasn't one of them? Wow, I'm impressed with myself all of a sudden :) Actually, I don't spend all that much time online.
Please thank scg, mta, and aruba for handing their pledges to me in person, and thank nt and irvingp for sending theirs through the mail. Thanks!
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I pledged (and sent) $50 earlier this year to buy the new 670. So far, that hasn't gotten off the ground. What guarantees do we have that this project won't just sit around for six months or so?
This is a much different item, david.. The dropping in of a router on each end and the ordering of a phone line is all it takes, not playing with hardware and software for a bit to almost no end.
Heh. The 670 is a complex beast; from both a hardware, software and security standpoint. The ISDN line is going to be a couple hour session where most of the Grex staff gets to watch as the more knowledgable staff gets it working, and then hopefully gets to do it over again for experience value.
GREAT that we have reached the $800 threshold in pledges without banging on the grex piggy bank. grex now *does* need to receive teh $$ pledged, so please do not delay - the phone line has been ordered (based on cash$$ donated at the board meeting) also note, please, that the expected total initialization cost is ~$1200 with $800 being the threshold for *action*. we still need the additional $400. I am in for $10. <<dpc, different projects have different time lines and differnt problems, the 670 is being worked on, as the minutes of the last board show. everyone is munching on the bit for the 670 to become grex's evolution - and it will happen.>>
The actual estimated installation charges are
$625 for an ISDN router on our end
$625 for a router on the other end
$42 for installation of an ISDN line on our end
$42 for installation of an ISDN line on the other end
------
$1,334 total
We currently have $960 in pledges.
To bring it up to an even $1000, I'll pledge $40.
Well, this is certainly a good idea; I just don't want to see it sit around like the 670 - collecting dust and excuses. 8-)
I'll kick in $25.
Please thank fitz for sending in his pledge. Thanks!
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I ordered the ISDN lines today--it took a little longer than I thought it would to get to them, but its done now. At this point I have the installation scheduled for 8/15. Unforunately, at the last board meeting where we decided to go ahead with ISDN, I got the price for the installation of the lines wrong. I said that they would cost $42 each. That was incorrect. The cost per line is $147, or $105 more per line, or $210 more for both. Sigh. I'm sorry for leading the board astray on that one. On the brister side, the monthly charges are going to be right around $25. I'll be getting the exact prices a little later. Having said that, any few more dollars we can eek out would be good to help cover the cost of this connection... ;-)
<ouch>
Hmmm...I think this higher installation cost is more than the board authorized, but I don't think that should stop us. The support from our users has been good, so we can afford the higher cost. Probably the board will retroactively authorize the higher expenditure at the next meeting or something like that. It's not technically correct, and if anyone is bothered by that, they should say so now, but I think we should proceed.
I volunteer to be a pie target at the next meeting. I only ask to be able to specify what flavours are used.
Mud pies are nice for throwing. Wouldn't recommend them for eating, tho. :)
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Me too.
Me too.
me three
Me four.
Definitely.
me 85 oh wait, that's the resp # I gotta find an envelope and mail my stuff from bfe here, so it should get there before I get back from vacation
Please do go for it. :)
Re #77: Specify away, STeve. :)
Key Lime Pie.
Okey Doke.
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Your objection is noted and logged, but will have to be seconded and voted on before it carries any weight.
Can we make the pie throwing a fund raiser? $20 towards the line installation allows you to throw a pie, or something like that? ;)
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Make it $50/pie and I shall do the honorable thing for Grex.
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Please thank headdoc, scott, giry, srw, bruin, and signet for sending in their pledges. Thanks!
Obviously valerie doesn't appreciate just how good Key Lime Pie is. Let's threaten her with warm dutch apple pie and just-starting-to-melt vanilla ice cream.
(Maybe she has a=n aversion to the sticky mess pie throwing results in).
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Nothing like good Florida Key Lime Pie made by Cheif Piere Company in Traverse City, Michigan sold as a specialty item in a Gerogia Kentucky Fried Chicken store.
Please thank tao for sending in her pledge. Thanks! Our pledge total is $1025, and we have received $470 of that.
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I don't know about money, I might be able to pledge $10 or so. Is there any work connected with this that I might be able to help with?
Likely not. The largest amount of work will be at the remote end of the connection, and some root type stuff here, chaning out IP address, etc. If you can spare $10, great. If its $5 thats OK--every little bit helps. We truely appreciate all help.
Please thank remmers and janc for giving me their pledge money. Thanks!
(I'll thank janc if janc will thank me.)
Re #103: orinoco, should I put you down for $10?
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Thanks John. But all thanks to me should be multiplied by .8, since I misremembered my pledge amount and paid 20% less than I pledged. I'll come up with the other $10 next time I see Mark.
Sure, aruba, $10 from me.
Ok, that puts our total pledged at $1035, $550 of which we have received.
oops, I've been lazy for a while, and just got around to buying some stamps, I'll be sending my pledge soon. <it's too bad you don't have a form on the web page for a credit card>
I'm afraid we don't have the means to accept credit cards.
as a matter of curiousity <and a slight drift> what would that take?
An agreement with a local bank, credit-card processing equipment, staff time, etc.. Not to mention that VISA or Mastercard would get to skim a few percent off the top of every credit card donation.. It'd probably be more cost effective from Grex's standpoint to send you a SASE.. }-)
Right. We have certainly tossed the idea around a number of times, but haven't followed through on it. I guess it's the percentage we have to pay to a credit card company that really bothers me about it.
I hadn't realized <silly me> that the credit cvard companies charged people to accept their cards....such a delusional thought, I was thinking they were happy with the intrest they charged.... ok, thanks <i'm done drifting now> I'm sending the check tonight
As long as Grex has money sitting in the bank, has it ever occured to buy a CD and earn some interest? Grex could buy a $500 or $1,000 CD and make a few bucks more in interest than just having the money sitting in a bank account does. And not like the CD couldnt be cashed in if there was a money crunch right?
Hmmm... No, can't say as I'd ever thought of that before. I wonder what the rates and penalties are these days?
Or could transfer a portion of Grex's funds into a money market account or something. There are numerous ways to invest and make extra interest these days.
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That doesn't sound right. The Lions Club I'm in is a Michigan-chartered business (needed for tax purposes for our concessions wagon, etc.) and is currently earning interest on two C of D's (from bequests that the Club got). It's one of the "big name" banks and I know they've our corporate ID numbers on file, so I doubt there's any error there. I'd guess that the problem was with minimum balances, service fees, two accounts being needed to get checking and interest, etc. so that it wasn't worth doing.
I really don't want to see Grex hoarding money, either in the form of investments or a large bank balance. Sure we need to keep somewhat of a cushion, but for the most part I think our users donate money so that we can spend it on the system, rather than just hoarding it. If our users want to invest the money and donate it to us later, they can certainly do it.
re #121. it didn't/doesn't have to, but hey, old news.
re: putting money in an interest-earning account -- how would that affect Grex's non-profit status and would the relatively miniscule amount of interest earned be worth the staff time used filling out whatever tax paperwork was needed?
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I saw an ad for a PCMCIA ISDN modem for around $400. On the general principal that PCMCIA equipment tends to be more expensive than its desktop equivalent, it should be possible to get the ISDN routers for much less than $650 apiece. You might want to shop around.
Good ones cost money. There is a *vast* difference between an at-home use of a piece of equipment, and commercial quality continuously used equipment. The ISDN routers we're looking at are the cheapest we dare go with.
An ISDN "modem" is not the same as an ISDN router.
IWLTA <and no its not a lie> the checks in the mail
A real "ISDN modem" is pretty rare. It's a thing that will talk to
ordinary voice modems at the other end (via ISDN to the CO, then via an
ordinary analog voice line to the other end.) The major win is that it
gets rid of one analog hop. It's something an ISP might do, if ISDN
lines were cheaper than ordinary phone lines (they aren't) and if the
modems were cheaper (they aren't). You can also use ISDN for ordinary
voice conversations, and there are a few special features you can get
that way that you can't get with an analog line.
Electrically, ISDN looks like this:
central office
talks via U loop over 2-4 wires to
NT1
talks via T bus over 4-8 wires to
NT2
talks via S bus over 4-8 wires to
1 to 8 devices
In europe (and elsewhere) the phone company owns the NT1. In the US
(only) the subscriber provides the NT1. The T bus only supports 1
device, but the S bus supports up to 8 devices. The S & T busses are
otherwise similar; you only need an NT2 if you have more than one device
to hook up to the line. In the US, because the NT1 is something the
subscriber has to provide, it is common to find equipment that has this
built in.
ISDN comes in to flavors, BRI and PRI. PRI provides 23 B channels plus
1 D channel (or 30+1 over E1, found in europe..). BRI provides 2 B
channels plus 1 D channel. A B channel is a 64K channel, or one "voice"
connection. A D channel is a 16K channel, used for control purposes.
One common use for a PRI is for a PBX, or a private phone switch (such
as you might find in a small office). PRI's are also commonly used by
ISP's. BRI's are what you might find in a home. There are several
different standards for the control signals sent over the D channel;
hence some equipment that works fine in europe would be difficult to get
working here in the US (and visa-versa).
Because a BRI provides 2 B channels, for data purposes, it's common to
use both at the same time to talk to the same remote site. Various
incompatible protocols are available to do this, one is called
"bonding".
One ISDN data channel merely provides a 64K synchronous full-duplex bit
circuit. It does not provide for packet handshaking, compression, or
anything else. For internet access, it is common to run "PPP" over
ISDN. Some older ISDN internet devices did not provide for packet
compression, but newer ISDN devices commonly do so.
There are indeed a lot of ISDN devices available for the PC compatible
world. These devices commonly interface to the ISA, EISA, PCI, or
PCMCIA busses. Of course, these devices need software, in order to
function. Unfortunately, all of the vendors we've located for such
peripherals have fallen prey to market pressures, and *only* provide
software for Windows, Windows NT, Novell Netware and similar proprietary
environments. The problem with these environments is that they (a) cost
more, and (b) are less flexible, and (c) are not necessarily robust
enough to operate reliably (7/24) in a relatively hostile environment
(potentially hostile users, saturated network connection, unattended
operation.) The software for most of these cards is of course assuming
"personal" use, which means they're going to contain features like
part-time use, and colorful glossy brochures, but aren't necessarily
going to contain features like reliable automatic error recovery (a
pop-up window may be "good enough"), or subnet routing (for machines
connected via ethernet to the PC).
Another sort of ISDN device that is not hard to find is something that
connects an ethernet to an ISDN line. The Ascend pipeline is one such
product. These aren't particular flexible either, but they have
acquired a reputation for reliable unattended operation, and are
relatively simple devices unlikely to malfunction. For our purposes, we
want a device that includes the NT1 interface integrated, supports some
form of bonding and compression, and will support these features when
talking to whatever is at the other end. Right now, that would be a
clone of the same device, but in the future, it's desirable to pick
something that would be likely to work with an ISP too. Some older
pipelines would only route to a few devices on the local ethernet, and
not further, needless to say, that would not do at all for the
"internet" end of grex's internet connection. That would also not do if
we find in the future that we need to implement a firewall, or have more
than a few devices on the local ethernet.
There are lots of other ISDN devices out there. For instance, there are
ISDN devices that connect to an ordinary serial port (data rates may be
limited to the speed of the serial port), there are computers that talk
ISDN directly (some of the newer sun workstations come with an ISDN
interface), there are gobs of ISDN cards for all sorts of other busses
(including VME, like we have on the sun4 machines), and there are many
different routers that support ISDN (like what you'd find at an ISP).
Most of these devices are either a bunch more expensive, have limited
functionality, and/or would be a lot of work to get working on grex.
The next step up from ISDN is a T1 line. T1 is slightly cheaper than
PRI, and offers slightly more data througput (it runs over the same
physical lines as PRI). We located one vendor of T1 cards for the ISA
bus, that we (or I at least) really liked. They provided a freebsd
driver for their card, which would make it almost a no brainer for us to
get this going. It would be a really great deal *if* we could find
somebody willing to give grex T1 internet connectivity (if we provided
all the hardware), and we had about $3K startup + $250/mo monthly to
throw into the physical connection.
Re: #127 Ah. Sounds like the answer is that interest may not be paid on a commer- cial checking account. Grex would have to maintain a seperate savings/C of D/whatever account to earn interest. The standard "account types & quick descriptions" sheet I have from my bank shows several non-checking accounts for businesses that earn interest.
Many ISPs are now using digital modems talking over PRIs or channelized T1 lines (kind of like a PRI, but without the signaling needed for ISDN data connections) to talk to customers' analog modems, so that's pretty much the ISDN modem concept Marcus was talking about in his first paragraph. That's the only configuration the new "56K" modems will function in. One end of that connection has to be digital.
re 132: ouch..my head hurts
I think a T1 connection would be a substantial overreach for Grex.. I don't think we have the hardware to support the users who would be needed to support such a thing on an ongoing basis. The most common cause of death for systems such as Grex is over-expansion, not under- devlopment..
The hardware per se is not a problem. Even the current 4/260 would benefit from a faster connection, and backtalk in particular would benefit greatly. A faster network connection would mean that the bottleneck would be in the CPU & disk - resources we can incrementally improve - rather than in the network. To put it another way, if we could get a T1 "for free", there's absolutely no real reason why we shouldn't go for it. We have a perfect technical example of this in operation - nether.net. The only remaining question would be if the increased network bandwidth would change the character of the system. Personally, I'm quite convinced it would not; I've seen far too much evidence that the most important determining factor of the "character" of the system is the people & traditions of the people already on the system; I've seen this over and over again, on grex, m-net, the well, chinet, and many other systems. The real problem with T1 is the $ expense. There are two components to this. The first are the capital and operational expenses of the link itself. They are not cheap, but they *are* very compatible to the expenses of 10 phone lines, and certainly would support far more than 10 users. Clearly, since we are already covering a very similar expense for about 10 real phone lines, this is not out of line with grex's current budget. The second is the expense of connecting the line to the *internet* - *that* covers (essentially), the cost of a slice of an ISP, their connection to any other ISP, and eventually, some portion of the internet backbone. *That* cost, at commercial rates, is several times the monthly cost of the raw T1 connection, and given grex's current budget, would represent a considerable gamble, *at present* (to say the least). In the long run, I'm convinced that if grex remains viable, a T1 (or equivalent) will happen. Hopefully, grex won't become potbound, but will become larger, evolving technology such as the web will push the need for better connectivity, and the costs of connectivity have been and should continue to drop. When we first started grex, we knew that "someday", if grex were to survive and remain viable, it would have to get an internet connection; but there was no way we could afford it at that point. Now, I think most of us could not conceive of grex *not* having an internet connection. So, to me, the question is not "if", but "when". There have already been a few points where it almost looked like grex might get a deal that would realize T1-like connectivity, but various things out of our control kept getting in the way. Hopefully, someday, we'll find a deal that will realize better connectivity for grex. In the meantime, I think we should keep in mind that ISDN is not the ultimate in network connectivity, but just another step that we're finally able to make.
I won't argue against the claim that Grex will eventually need (and be able to support) a T1, I'm just cautioning against the "if you build it, they will come" school of system expansion. Taking on large expenses in anticipation of a large influx of users that never wind up coming has killed many a small public- access system.
Thanks to toking for sending in his $20 pledge for the ISDN connection. Also, thanks to janc for belatedly handing in the other 20% of his pledge that he previously forgot about. Some people can't be trusted with money.
janc: are you speaking in third person in case he doesn't figure out the connection?
What's the best guess on when we get the line?
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Good show!
I have a call into Ameritech on this, but I belive that both ends have been installed. The Ameritech person who did the Pumpkin end of the install was told the wrong building, but had my pager number and called for help. That got straightened out quickly, thanks to our wonderful Ameritech contact Ken Kiernan's putting my pager number on all service work. ;-)
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I have an order in, but it won't be shipped out 'till Monday--actually I was too late for shipment then, but it also let me look and make sure that no one else ordered them. I see no evidence that anyone has.
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How are we doing on collected pledges so far?
Hello Valerie, I hear about CC/Credit card problem. I will ask my financial connection in NY for waiver/reduced cost. Is this againt IRS rule/law? Perhaps the annual payment can be derived from overseas interest. What about minimum amount for each month/year (turnover)
The Check, as they say, Is In The Mail.
I'd like to thank Ken Josenhans (krj) for sending in a check for his $50 pledge (and $3 extra for the infamous Silly Hat Fund). This means that of the $1035 pledged, we have now collected $630. If you made a pledge, and haven't paid up yet, please do send in your money. Or, if you can make the board meeting tonight, bring it there.
I don't have spare cash now, but I should soon. And long live the Silly Hat Fund!
At tonight's board meeting I was handed a flurry of checks, including quite a lot of ISDN donations. Thanks to Larry Kestenbaum (polygon), Misti Tucker (mta), Jared Mauch (jared), and Dan Romanchek (danr) for helping Grex speed up it's net connection. We now have $715 of the $1035 that was pledged.
Actually, Jan was so flustered at getting so much money that he underestimated our good fortune. We have now collected $745 of $1035. If you're one of the eight people who pledged money but haven't sent it in yet, do please send it.
the check is in your mailbox... wednesday turned in to 'moving allllll day.'
Please thank tsty for handing me his pledge.
<<never before had i seen such a comfortable and spacious mailbox until i handed aruba that check.>>
The wiring from the Pumpkin's phone room to the Pumpkin is now done.
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Thanks Steve!
I *finally* sent in my check. (I hate checks, did you know that? :)
Checks are your friends, Dan!
They're certainly Grex's friends....when properly made out and endorsed, anyway. :)
<poke> <poke> I still need phone numbers for the other end
Please thank dang for sending in his pledge.
Thanks, Dan!
You're welcome. (They're so inconvenient when compared to my Checking Visa...)
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Please thank robh for sending in his pledge. We have now received $795 of $1035 pledged.
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So... Can anyone give us an update on the ISDN status? Last I heard we were waiting for one last bit of wire to be laid, from Darien's apartment complex's phone box to Darien's apartment, and we hoped that would be done by the end of September. What's going on now?
The wire was layed, and it was discovered that Ameritech had messed up again, so they are fixing that now. It's supposedly a problem at the central office.
Oh. Could we have some more details on what went wrong?
I believe the ISDN line itself isn't working completely correctly. I say this after hearing *three* companies in town who are bitching loudly over installs that seemed ok at first, but then couldn't carry traffic over them.
Have you called Ken K. about this, STeve? And is there another item where the ISDN status is being discussed?
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Thanks.
If it doesn't get resolved very soon (if it hasn't already) I'll breath some fire on Ken's direction, but it really is a repair department issue. Actually, its another one of our Ameritech-is-disfunctional issues, of which we have many.
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Griping to the Mich. Public Service Commission got my company a real, working ISDN line very quickly after many weeks of hassles with Ameritech.
Would anyone like to describe "it doesn't work" in any more detail?
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re 181:
This is the first time I've been thinking about Grex's ISDN line while
I've had a P50 manual in front of me in a while. I checked the manual, and
the indicator it gives for line status translates to "The line is not active
at this time, but is physically connected."
This should ideally be a repair issue, so dealing with repair is the right
thing to do on this, assuming that route goes anywhere. Jared has been
dealing with Ameritech on it. The last mail I saw from him said that
Ameritech was working on the problem. From what I understand Jared is out
of the country until Wednesday, so I'm not sure how to get trouble ticket
numbers or status reports form him before then.
I'm probably nagging needlessly, especially with jared unavailable. Is the line status indicator you cite above a "cause code", or the blinkie light on the front? From either P50, have you been able to make a loopback call, where your B1 number calls your B2 number? If the loopback fails, what is cause code? What software rev is in the P50s? (Feel free to tell me to go away. I probably know just enough to be dangerous here.)
No Ken, stay here. That kind of suggestion is always helpful. Very helpful.
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It just says "Error: call failed". No cause code. The Ascends give cause codes for a lot of things, but for a lot of things they just have status indicators, and X or . is the indicator that something isn't working. Maybe it's sending more out via syslog. I'll get it logging somewhere.
Steve: to get the cause code or other ISDN diagnostics, go into Term Serv, then use the command: show isdn
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No, but I'm certainly willing to pitch in on the ISDN installation, since I've installed about a dozen P50s and a hundred other ISDN connections. Let's set up a work session when we can have Grex people with consoles at both ends of the connection.
Rattling off a few other things about ISDN: The "cause codes" I'm referring to above are the standard codes which the telco switch is to return to the device on every call termination or failure. Most of them are decoded in the router manuals. If the P50 is not getting a cause code back, that usually goes in tandem with an error message "TEI not assigned;" TEI not assigned means that either there is a physical discontinuity between the router and the switch, or else the telco forgot to build the phone number into the switch. But scg said the P50 had an indicator reporting that the physical link to the switch was OK. How did we specify the ISDN line installation on the order? Did we specify "Intel Blue"? I think that's what the manual says to order. Also, did we order the switch type to be "National ISDN", and is that what the switch type is set to in the router? "National ISDN-1" or "NI-1" is a "virtual" switch type; so the user isn't supposed to have to worry about if the equipment is connected to an AT&T 5ESS switch or a DMS-100, or whatever else might be out there. How are our lines orders, and our equipment set, with regards to Circuit Switched Data and Circuit Switched Voice? (Any problems here should be revealed with the cause codes.)
Folks, ameritech fixed the line. It appears to be up and running just fine
Hah, all my responses were unnecessary; all we had to do was fix a typo in the phone number.
What you need is someone who is technically sound, like Ken, and has no life, like me. That would be lethally effective at solving grex's problems.
Yeah, unfortuneately all our gurus have lives these days.
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woohoo! I may just have to start telnetting in again...
The speed is very refreshing indeed.
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It's still too frightening for me...
I'm actually telnetted on a weekday, and I get quite good character echo! <dang faints>
Backtalk even responded quickly.
You have several choices: