valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Val valerie Jan 8 04:48:18 2004 Valerie Mates valerie Jan 8 04:48:1853 responses total.
yeah, change policy and offer IRC access to everyone, instead of making it sa member perk. If these folks could IRC already, they wouldn t be FTP'ing files and slowing grex down. It is time to re-thnk grex's IRC policy.
<the orinoco, as usual, feels dense> What is this 'eggdrop' thing?
Eggdrop is an IRC bot. IRC is just like the party program here on Grex, but it spans all systems on the internet, so it's huge. "Bot" are robots -- little programs that join people and respond to things people type. Eggdrop is a bot that can do things like send you files if you ask it too. It gets used to distribute warez a lot. It has a reputation of being a *huge* drain on system resources, and basically nobody on the entire internet wants it running on their system, and thousands of people are looking for places to run it.
Re #1: You don't get it, Richard. As Jan said in #3, allowing Eggdrop to be run here would be a far worse drain on our bandwidth than what we have now.
Also, eggdrop is not used to access IRC. You don't need eggdrop at all to chat on IRC. So, access to IRC isn't really the issue here. Even if we were to allow IRC access to everyone (which we can't because of accountability) I would definately oppose allowing eggdrop.
Perhaps then this is an argument that ftp privs in general should be a member perk. I dont think it is the purpose or function of grex for every user on the 'net to be able to ftp millions upon millions of lines of code onto it.
I think the only solution to this, and the more general issue of people bringing other types of files here (for storage or exchange) is going to be modifying ftpd such that small transfers of say, 50K or so come into Grex at the "normal" speed, but that the transfer rate degrades rapidly beyond that for larger files. We see people using Grex to exchange image files (gifs, jpegs, etc) all the time; eggdrop is just another one of this type of thing. However, eggdrop is especially aggravating, in that it uses a software package called TCL (pronounced tickle) so people bring that over too, and then they have to compile both. All told an eggdropping uses up about 4M of disk, and slows the system down for a time. I really don't want to see FTP going away for people, becuase then, we'd have a REAL mess on our hands with mail. People would accumulate mail here, but not have any way of getting it out, short of mailing it back out, or cating the mail file and doing a screen capture at the remote end. Ugh.
ugh..good point steve...hadnt thought 'bout how it would affect mail
disk quotas!
No, not disk quotas--they'll slow the system down, and worse, introduce problems. With disk quotas on, every write has to be checked to insure the file being written doesn't go beyond the limits imposed by the quotas. Systems files might be immune to this but users files aren't. That slows things down. Marcus thinks that the SunOS quota code isn't the beat, and if we had problems with it we'd have to incorporate some other quota code into Grex, a task which isn't simple, and requires a lot of time.
We are now seriously drifted from the orginal topic. however, nobody has any ideas on the original topic.
The ftp message is *still* not being displayed. Perhaps there needs to be a second warning for files named "eggdrop." Maybe the compiler can be modified to recognize & abort on the eggdrop source file.
If the in-real-time disk quota enforcer doesn't work so well, would slow down system performance, etc., then consider something like a nightly chron job to "reap" files in excess of the user quota (e.g. 1M). Send the user an e-mail detailing what was done and why, and say "your reaped files are in /tmp until the next reboot" or whatever. If you're not going to approach this with some automated method, you're gonna have to rely on the vigilence of the human staff.
I'd be in favor of any mechanical/electronic method that gets rid of these eggdrop things. I dont know why, but when I dialed in to grex about half an hour ago, it took 4 minutes to get from "Connected" to the menu prompt. That is 4 minutes to take my login, password, and one carriage return.
Re #7: The problem that people are bringing over 'tcl' and
compiling it could be addressed by installing it ourselves
and making it available to all users. Tcl is a widely used
general-purpose programming language. Is there some reason we
shouldn't make it available to users, just like we make C and
perl available? Doing so would would seem to be consistent
with our general policy of providing public access to standard
Unix software tools.
So let's see, the problem with eggdrop is the resources
consumed by people ftp'ing it here and building it, not with
people running it (which they can't do because the kernel
blocks prevent it from running). I must say I'm impressed
by the single-minded determination with which people keep
trying anyway.
Short of instituting draconian restrictions which I would NOT
like to see (like disallowing incoming ftp, or access to the
C compiler), the only things I can think of are along the lines
of heading people off at the pass through better education.
Like maybe:
(1) Putting a wrapper around cc and gcc that watches for filenames
that are part of the eggdrop source (and unlikely to be found
in non-eggdrop source packages) and prints a polite yet
reasonably detailed informational message when people try to
compile something with one of those names -- explaining why
we don't want to run it, and why the kernel blocks will
prevent it from running anyway. That would address the
building resource drain, though not the ftp resource drain.
It would also be quite a kludge, of course.
(2) Publicizing our kernel blocks more widely, e.g. on a web page,
with full explanations of why they mean that eggdrop won't
work here. This idea has come up in staff discussions. We could
also do it in the newuser text, although I'm told that newuser is
already pretty bloated with information material. Maybe if enough
people see the message, it will reduce (though probably not
eliminate) the amount of ftp'ing of eggdrop.
I thought eggdropping was mentioned in newuser?
It is. The reason they can't run it goes beyond the kernel blocks, as I understand it - even a member can't run it, because our orphan-killer will kill any bot after its owner logs out. I have had several people write to me lately, saying they want to become members so they can run a bot. I tell them they're out of luck.
FWIW, most commercial ISPs I've dealt with, including the one I work for, don't allow Eggdrop either. Even with lots of resources, it's nasty.
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Hooray for whoever fixed the FTP welcome-mat message! (The eggdrop problem, incidentally, is the sort of thing which led me to speculate about Grex continuing to offer open shell access to all comers. Are there any other systems in the world, other than M-net/Grex, which do this?)
Do not install tcl on here, it's primarily used for bots and the such. Lots of folks install eggdrop on nether.net even though I say in newuser don't in the /etc/motd that no bots are allowed, and their accounts will be nuked, it won't stop them.
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Tcl is a general-purpose programming language that is used for a great many things besides "bots and such".
Yes, but it's primary use currently is bots and the like
Yes, but it saves them ftping it over all the time. They'll try and build the bots whether or not we install Tcl, and this way they only ftp the bot itself.
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I wonder if people build eggdrop here so they can run it on another system(s) that allow (or don't protect against) it but don't have a SunOS C compiler available?
Good question. Slightly less obnoxious from the "intent" point of view, but even worse from the "effect" point of view.
IU agree with John that we ought to install tcl here on Grex. It is a useful tool. We might see it as a vehicle for eggdrop, but there are lots of other uses for it. And, if it stops people from FTPing it as often as in the past, even if only by 20%, thats an overall win for Grex.
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They are certainly down, I'll say that.
LOOK WHO IS USING EGGDROPS : r eggdrop
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/a/y/g/ygroove/files/etc/eggdrop1.0p/weed /a/z/e/zerox/eggdrop1_1_5_tar
For sixteen different users, you enter an 800 line file??? <robh considers entering an item on conferencers who waste more disk space than eggdrop>
Well, an 800-line response doesn't use nearly the disk space that the set of eggdrop files does, but response #34 doesn't reveal anything new. We already know that lots of people are uploading eggdrop and trying to install it. They're not "using" it, as #33 asserts. They're uploading it, compiling it, *trying* to use it, and finding that it doesn't work. In the process, they've consumed a lot of net bandwidth and have a lot of files sitting in their directory, as listed in response #34. Now that the ftp message about eggdrop has been restored, that appears to have helped quite a bit.
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(Just for what it's worth, that list is accurate to the last time the locate database was updated, and only includes people who didn't have their eggdrop directories depermitted. Chances are that list is rather different now. Locate is updated on sunday morning, so it's been almost a week)
Is there some way the fw can "hide" response #34? I certainly didnt appreciate having to scroll through it.
Nope.
You could cut out with a q at the page prompt, and then go back to the following response.
Or the person to entered it could expurgate it for us.
re 41 that'swhat I just did.
publicising the abuse (from at least the bandwidth and load average point of view) is much less offensive than the bandwidth adn load average abuse needed to create the publicity.
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I.e. the discussion of why you should ignore the goodtimes virus warnings becomes a kind of a virus in & of itself.
In this case, it would take a *lot* of discussion to equal one eggdropping.
re 44.... that 800 line file, as a 'bother' t the rest of us, is pissant 'abuse' compared to the ABUSE that had to occur before taht 800 line file *could* have been created. #36 says it in a differnt way
does #48 clarify #44 sufficiently?
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I concur with #50. Has the eggdropping problem remained at minimal levels?
agreed with #50 actually - i wish i had taken a look at that file size before dumpping it in here. i didn't. i was more stunned than you were irritated, believe it. sorry. wryly though, it was much more than sufficient to make the pooint. i'll look in the future.
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You have several choices: