Grex's home page was designed in an era when the web was young and we
expected most people to be looking at it with "lynx". A major goal was
to keep everything fitting on one lynx screen.
These days, it looks dignified, but it doesn't really give a good feeling
for what Grex is or what Grex is about. You have to wander through an
awful lot of pages to find out everything most people should know about Grex.
I personally thing we need a livelier, more informative web page. Several
times recently I've tried putting together a better web page, but most of my
ideas required original artwork, and my artistic abilities fell pathetically
short. So today I have up on trying to draw new graphics and did a
mostly-text design. It is at
http://www.grex.org/~janc/newhome.html
Now, it is not my intention to propose this a Grex's new home page. It has
some significant flaws. It is my intention to try to encourage other people
to come up with ideas and designs for a new web page.
A couple comments on what I was trying to do.
- I wanted an unusual look. We're an unusual system. We shouldn't have
an ordinary looking web page. (Our current web page is unusual looking
because of its sheer plainness - not a bad virtue.)
- I wanted to put a lot of information about Grex right up front. You
should be able to get a decent idea of what Grex is without looking any
further. I'm not afraid to cover our web page with words. I don't
mind scaring off people who don't like reading.
- I jammed a mess of links onto the front page. I want to give a sense
of a lot going on and a lot of options.
Anyone want to try their and hand at a better design?
64 responses total. This response has been erased.
This response has been erased.
Wow! what a beautiful page! Nice work, Jan! <other gives a hearty cheer>
Ditto - I think you've done a great job of expressing excitement with simplicity!
I *like* the design, and the concept of putting a lot of info on the front page. I think you've succeeded in doing that without making the page look ungainly and cluttered. Nice table arrangement and choice of background colors. Looks great in Netscape. In view of the fact that there are still folks out there who use non-graphical browsers, I'm pleased to find that it also looks good in lynx -- at least in the latest version, which understands tables. A couple of English style nits. The "Howdy. Wanna talk?" informality grates a little bit. I think correct English should be used. I'd also eliminate the exclamation marks in the center box.
One problem is that there are more links I'd like to add like for lost passwords and stuff, and I'm not sure where to fit that in.
Great look! I like it a lot.
I love the new look, Jan! My computer is using only 16 colours for some reason, making the pink tables a little hard to read, but otherwise it's great! (And for most people, I suspect the colours are fine.) Can you increase the space between the backtalk and telnet links? It's a little confusing as is... it looks like one link. You could add the Lost Your password? link to the Welcome to Grex list -- it's pretty evident, so while it doesn't quite fit there, it fits better than anyplace else. Another think I've seen done is to have the Lost Your Password info available from the create a new account page. Thanks, Jan!
you could make the new accounts link a "new accounts and account help" link...
I'm the first to dissent? :-) The web site could use a make-over, but I prefer the current heirarchical approach to all the links on one page. The heirarchy needs reorganization, and Jan's page does a great job of that. It's tough to fit everything into one of four categories, but things fit pretty well into the Welcome/Government/System/Community sections. But I think putting all links on one page looks cluttered, and daunting to someone unfamiliar with Grex. Since I'm probably in the minority, one suggestion for Jan's layout: left-justify the lists of links; multiple centered rows of text are harder to read than left-justified. Also, I made an attempt at a graphical makeover a couple years back, with icons for each of the then-present main menu items. It's just a single-GIF screen mockup...I don't really care for much of it, including the facetious logo :-), but it provides an alternate approach for discussion. See http://www.cyberspace.org/~ajax/grexmenu.html
Thanks for disagreeing. I don't believe my page is the final solution, and I'd much rather see different ideas and different page designs than have people adopt my page design. One of the driving factors on my design was that I have a hard time generating good images. Jan's lack of artistic ability is not a compelling reason for Grex's web page to be non-graphical. I think we have to brainstorm about alternatives at this stage. It's too soon to converge on one design. I think Rob's page is hilarious. Hilarious might not be a bad way to go.
Jan wrote: >I'm not afraid to cover our web page with words. I don't >mind scaring off people who don't like reading. Your page is good, but I don't mind scaring off people who just read 'unix shell account' ;-) I'd like a sort of middle way between old page and jan's suggest luca_
I like cramming a lot of (links to) information on the home page. It conforms to the Dan Romanchik "stuff" theory of web sites. The color scheme is OK, too. I don't like the table layout, though. It sort of keeps the eyes moving round and round, which for me was a bit unsettling. I'm also with Rob in that I think the lists should be left justified.
Though artistically interesting, I don't care for links all over the place (4 different quadrants), and there are just too many links for a home page. Call me boring, but I think the current home page, perhaps spruced up a bit, is a better way to go.
I like the idea of links all over the place. But then, I'm a fan of well segmented web pages. I even use frames on mine.
Jan I like the fact the new web page proposal is designed with tables, it's a good compromise between accessibility and using the webs formatting features. Having said that I have to say I think there is too much information on the home page. If I didn't know about Grex I would probably find the number of links overwhelming and I wouldn't bother to look further. I also personally find the pastel colors a bit offputting, I prefer white, black, grey, various shades of dark blue etc. I think this basic design could work well if the various tables were on seperate pages and the color scheme were a little more high contrast.
This response has been erased.
I like that fact that everything is up front just because it's efficient. For the user, everything is there, you only have to follow links and come back if you really want to pursue stuff. It is a complete overview. I like the quick connections to the conferences, with registration/login as options only if you want to participate. Is there some way to have a link generate the output of the pwho command? That would be a comparatively simple way to give some idea of party without really taxing the system, I would think.
That would be quite easy to do.
The problem with a *lot* of information on the opening page is that people aren't going to be able to keep it organized in their head. I just read on the web that you don't want to have more than 6 options on any one menu as short term memory can only hold 7+-2 options. I have to agree the # of links on the new page prototype gives me a headache looking at it. BTW I do appreciate the fact you are working on a new web page Jan I just think that you might want to think about ease of navigation issues.
This response has been erased.
One note - I'm not "working on a new web page." I'm hoping someone else will, and am just trying to get the ball rolling. I'm having some tendenitis problems, and aim to be limiting the amount of typing I do.
Because I have been away from grex since Memorial Day, I am just catching up on this now. I agree that Grex's web pages need some kind of jolt like this. I like the unusual look of Jan's version. I do not mind the many links on the front page. I agree with much of the other criticism, though. Too many centered links are hard to follow visually. We may want to adjust the colors for compatibility with various client platforms. Mostly, I have wanted to redo our pages for a long time, but I needed some ideas, a push, plus a good shove too. Jan has provided that. I'd be willing to play with this. I can do some graphical stuff, and maybe steal from ajax, whose graphical contributions have always been good. Clearly we can't please everyone, but I think Grex should be very responsive to comments from all of you who take the time to post your suggestions. I stop short of suggesting we design it by committee.
From Grex page I can see the uptime of the machine. I'd like also a finger link "see who's connected" maybe if each login listed is also a link to their WWW directory. I think new people will see clearly who we are: a lot of intelligent people from many parts of the world. luca_
That's a good notion. I think srw has been talking about doing something like that.
the concept of lots-0-links first is notonly good, it is commendable! even when i have access to netscape, i dearly *hate* to have to 'page' around through 4-5-6-7-8 pages of junk to find what *I* actually came to read/see. i think that is the specific reason that magazines use an index! and it's up front ... not scattered about. i tried to view the ajax varient, but in lynx ..... oops? keeping the lynx compatibility, i believe, is essential - adn there is a growing movement to harrass sites that are NOT compatible. i've seen the chaff flying elsewhere.
had time to spend on the janc version ... beyond a quick blink. nice job.
Agreed about lynx compatibility, TS. We want the page to be usable by anyone, and we have never bought into many of the current trends on the web (animated gifs, java-induced glitz, ignoring text-only browsers).
I've been meaning to do a different lots-of-links design. But I keep thinking of other things I want to do...
ajax's mockup is just a picture with no links.
Here's another mockup of another idea:
http://www.grex.org/~janc/newhome2.html
Again trying to do interesting stuff with tables.
The little -> Get a Free Account <- ascii arrows aren't good.
I replaced the paragraph of text describing Grex with
Welcome to Grex
a public service promoting
free speech
and
free access
on the internet
I felt it was hard to read blocks of text on this kind of page, so this kind
of display worked better. Possibly this would look better with the Grex icon
on the right of the welcome message.
Only a few of the links on the current page work. There would be lots of
second-level pages. The ones under "Free Grex Services" would be pages
describing services. The "More Info About" pages would also go to other
pages, some of which would have lots of links, some of which would have lots
of text, and most of which would have some of both. There are probably more
FAQs than are listed there.
I put a partial conference list on the front page. This is an attempt to
highly conferencing. A few of those conferences would always stay there.
Others would show up at semi-random (we'd have some weekly script that
regenerated the page with different conferences).
I guess I'm not altogether happy with the look of this page.
Maybe the "Get a Free Account" "Read the Conferences" and "Telnet" in" links in the horizontal gold bar should be done as a horizontal row of custom drawn button icons, each with the command embossed on, instead of a just plan text links.
The icon and text in the upper left corner look cluttered to me.
I definitely like newhome2 better...
Me too ...
Since I am one of the webmasters, since I was foolish enough to volunteer, since I finally got some time thanks to the holiday, and since I can seemingly type endlessly without wrist pain, I have finally spent a bunch of time working with Jan's newhome2 as a starting point. I installed it on Grex at http://www.cyberspace.org/new.html - have a look. I didn't like the colors much, so you can see that I modified them. I wrote up pages for many of the missing links he had listed on there, and changed a few of the links around as needed. Not all of the second-level pages are complete, for instance, I could really use some help writing up more info about party in http://www.cyberspace.org/party.html The FAQ section is not done yet. All I have now is the WWW server FAQ. The second-level pages that are new all have the same basic format to them. I like that idea, and I like keeping the logo on each one, since the browser will already have downloaded it. However, they need some kind of navigation bar at the bottom, and it should be carried through to all of the pages. At this point I haven't changed the Grex Shop page or any other existing page that this points to, but I'd like to make them all look alike some day. Probably each page also needs a "last modified" in the trailer, and perhaps a copyright notice. I'll be doing more on this, but I am very interested in hearing feedback on what I have done so far. This should remain essentially a collaborative effort. I put together a contact page and put a pointer in the main link section. I think I like Jan's idea that these big links should be buttons, and I can try that at some point, but I haven't had a chance yet.
I browsed through it briefly, and liked it a lot. It looks good, it's utilitarian, and tells a lot about Grex, right from the time you first look at it. I had one minor gripe; the "Also Cool" section reminds me of the "What's Cool" page at cool.infi.net. This new page is a big, big improvement over what Grex is using now. I'd say install it now, and keep tinkering with it as people have stuff to contribute. A WWW page should change regularly, anyway.
good work srw! just remember to add user queue in the Current Uptime and Queue Length link. If possible with a link from the different users to their grex home pages luca_
Looks great, Steve!
Yeah, deploy "http://www.cyberspace.org/new.html" and see what happens...
The current page, which I can access only in text, seems fine to me. Very easy to find your way around in it.
"Also cool" is perhaps a little weak, I'll try to find an alternate wording for that title. Luca, I'm not sure what you mean by "user queue". The page we have currently reports the length of the queue, but we don't know who is on the queue until they log in. I am thinking of putting in a CGI link that will report the output of the w command (Who is logged in). I am not sure if it should be separate from the uptime/queue page, or just appended to the output produced on that page. We routinely get over 80 users now in busy periods, so probably it should be separate. I think we will be installing this new welcome page very soon. We are also planning on releasing a replacement FAQ. Our current one is ancient, and has lost a lot of relevance. We get a huge number of frequently asked questions on the staff mailing lists, and it will be nice to feature them here. Watch for this too, in the next few days. More soon...
Great. I agree with some of the people above - do just a bit more work, install it, and continue tinkering. This is certainly far from perfect, but it is definately better.
srw wrote >I am thinking of putting in a CGI link that will report the output of >the w command (Who is logged in). that's exactly what I've got in mind, a sort of web-finger where the login are href to user's .plan or public_html. luca_
OK - I installed the new web page and FAQ and a new staff note regarding volunteering. I announced the new web page and FAQ in item:agora,4 I am sure we will continue to improve them, if people post suggestions right here for what we can do to make them better.
This response has been erased.
It's not a very crucifix-ish cross, and the Christian sites I've seen on the Web usually don't hide that fact. Think "HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED" in flashing pink letters... >8)
That is a weird thought, Vlerie. I can't imagine anyone getting the impression that it is a Christion cross from the web page. It is off- center, multicolored, and doesn't look the slightest bit Christian to me. Since the launch, I have made a few minor tweaks, and continue to do so. I still plan to build some kind of navigation tool to go across the bottom of the subsidiary pages, as we had in the previous site. I plan on propagating the grex logo on all subsidiary pages. I also plan on converting the FAQ to plain text and replacing our obsolete text-based faq which you get from the faq command. Also planned...buttons for the four big links on the front page. I'm not sure when I'll get to any of this stuff. Keep posting comments and suggestions. We need your advice.
This response has been erased.
Have you been saved by Grex's webpage? ;) I really don't think something that vaguely looks like a cross is worth getting worked up over. For that matter, I'm not sure what the problem with real Christian symbols is. I dislike it when people are trying to convert me, but most Christians I know are happy to have their beliefs and let me have mine, and would be justifiably offended if somebody tells them they shouldn't believe what they do.
I don't see anything sinister or sneaky about the "cross" on the Web page, and I'm pretty sensitive to that sort of thing too. Must we ban all cruciform shapes from our publishing?
(Good luck trying to get any writing done without the letters T or X...)
heh.
This is a Christian site, isn't it? I got introduced to the priesthood through Grex (Universal Life Church), by you, Valerie. I've not only saved a lot here, but the staff has ensured that salvation through the use of backups. I've seen discussions about the advantages of the new holy language, C cross cross (C++). I am confident the staff has done a lot of praying, especially while trying to bring up the new system -- and those prayers were answered.
Somehow I can't see many members of the staff praying...but that might be my own personal bias.
Are we talking about http://www.cyberspace.org/ now? I don't see a cross there. The "Becoming a Member" link does not mention Institutional memberships. I'd even lean toward a separate link called, perhaps, "Club memberships".
The red block across the page, and the blue one on the side, might look vaguely like a cross if you're looking for a cross. I wouldn't expect many people to read this home page as a Christian symbol.
...or a Star of David, either? I think we are plenty neutral here, which is all I ask. (on a humorous drift, don't the pink and blue colors seem to indicate an obsession with children? ;)
Funny, I thought all the words on the main page indicated that Grex is a great big dictionary.
Forget all the symbolism. I like it. Simple and quick to load, yet lots of links, leaving me with an impression of an active, diverse community gathering place, which I believe is an accurate description of our mission. I haven't been following this discussion very closely... Did anybody else notice the vague resemblance to a swastika in janc's original proposal? Or am I stirring up another pot by mentioning it after the fact? ;-)
Dang, dang, dang. (No, not you Dan.) I carefully implant subliminal messages into the web page designs and then you guys have to go *talking* about them. Stop it! You'll ruin the whole thing! Of course the religious undertones are deliberate. Have you seen the way people donate money to churches? I want people to be thinking of their Grex membership as their own bargain priced road to personal salvation. In the future all Grex staffers will be ordained instead of appointed. Now please go back to being a good flock of sheep and STOP NOTICING THESE THINGS!
<tee-hee>
This response has been erased.
I added more text to the governance subpage of the home page (http://www.grex.org/local/grex/cyber.html) and also cleaned up the pages that points to, mostly just updating.
You have several choices: