The Board is considering dropping our last two dial-in lines. Staff looked at usage recently and found a total of 30 minutes of connect time over a one month period. The treasurer could tell us exactly what our AT&T bill comes to each month but I suspect it's something over $50. Would anyone object to this service being discontinued?115 responses total.
To add to this, there is at least one free alternative to dialing in to Grex if we were to remove the phone lines. For example, freedialup.org. In the March 2010 Board meeting minutes, it is noted that (via a script we used to use a long time ago which was run during the meeting to see how much usage there was) there was 24 minutes of modem use in February. This is practically nothing of all the hours of modem time available that month (roughly 40,000 minutes in 28 days for one modem and twice that for two modems--about 0.03 percent usage recorded). We should be able to run that script again and see what the usage was in March. I don't know if we can go back in time, say 6 months to see if there is any pattern to the usage. Staff can tell us more about that. If we do stop modem service to Grex, we should do at least a couple things. One is to warn people in advance so they can investigate the alternatives and try them out. Another is to publicize at least one viable alternative for those who still use modems. If we can give good instructions on how to use that alternative, so much the better. If we know who the modem users are, perhaps an e-mail could be sent to them with this information, but at the very least, having the information about the impending end of modem connections and the alternative(s) should be in the MOTD and an agora conference item in advance of the shutoff date.
www.dialinfree.net is another free dial-in service, which has numbers in Michigan. There are others around the country, often limited to regional area codes (such as freedialup.org).
It's really a waste of money to keep them going for one or two users, unless those users want to pay the bill. :) Even if the bill is as low as $50/mo, for 24 minutes that's over $2/minute we're paying for someone to connect to grex. :)
At one point, I'm sure we had enough people using them and enough membership money coming in to cover the cost. But this is obviously no longer the case. Since we have practically no money coming in right now, it would make good sense to reduce expenses where we can reasonably do so. And of course, we'd like to do as little harm to meeting our mission as possible while reducing expenses.
At one time having just 2 lines would have produced 100% busy signals too, but that time was about 15 years ago. :)
please LINK t o agora !!
keepoing one line, 'just because' would be a decent idea, imo, i might be luddite-ish to do so, but, teh learning curve starts ther.e
I suspect that dialing in via a modem is a learning curve very very few undertake any more. The Board has a responsibility to not waste money if we can reasonably avoid it. 'Just because' doesn't sound to me like a good rationale for spending money in this case, especially when there are dial-in alternatives for people. They can get on the learning curve that way if they desire to do so.
I agree and would support their being discontinued as soon as fair warning has been issued. I put a pointer to this item in the MOTD this morning.
Thanks for the MOTD update, Mary. Do we also want to link this to agora since not everyone reads coop?
Yes, Katie has to do that. I'll send her email.
Thanks, Katie!
I am one of the last modem users. It is quicker to boot into DOS and use kermit to access grex, and it responds faster than if I go via dialinfree, but I vote to drop the lines. I can't use DOS with a PCI modem anyway and I have a whole bunch of computers without ISA slots now.
I say if Sindi Keesan says drop the lines, the lines should be dropped!
I saw my modem the other day. I don't think it will work with any computer I now use....and I'm not going to waste my time trying to make it work.
It might be wise to keep one line.
My external modems work with all my computers but there are some newer models without serial ports now.
ok, dump both.
I agree.
resp:14 Yeah, that was my thought too. ;)
Keep the phone lines. Dump Grex.
Keep grex, dump twits.
What if grex's 'net server goes down and it is off the internet for a time. it happens. If the 'net is down and there are no phone lines, grex would be totally inaccessible.
The probabiliy of Grex's connection to the Internet going down is extremely small compared to the probability of Grex itself going down (which happens every once in a while). When Grex itself is down phone lines can't do much, unless they are used to remotely power cycle or debug for which I doubt Grex has the required hardware. Just saying from the technical point of view. I don't think I get a say in keeping or ditching the phone lines in question.
Right. During the recent several-week outage, the phone lines did nothing that I know of to help the situation (and we had to pay for a month of their use to boot). There has been prior discussion of getting the hardware (card) that would allow remote reboots. It's not expensive and might save staff time going to the co-lo to do the work. But we do have more staff members with access to where Grex's machine is located and they have expressed a willingness to go there and get it going again if it needs a reboot.
If the 'net connection' is down, getting to grex by telephone line won't do a lot of good: there won't be anyone here to talk to.
Grex has already decided to discontinue dial up connections. They decided that wen they: 1.) failed to upgrade the old 14.4k modems (who's going to connect at 14.4k anymore. and 2.) installed a new system where dial up file transfer is slower and more difficult.
really, if you're still using dial-up to connect to grex you're doing something wrong. There's just no reason not to use another ISP and telnet/ssh/browser here.
Direct dial connections even at 14.4K are better than ssh/telnet connections via dialup connection to ISP. Also I can print screen via DOS but not linux. By the way, Bill Levak tested out a bunch of faster modems for grex, which grex never bothered to set up and use. I find it annoying when people insist that their way of doing things is always best under all circumstances.
would more people dial in if grex decided to keep the dialins and decided to buy the faster modems?
The faster modems are free, we already have them but nobody bothered to take Bill there to install them.
Re 30: I doubt it. Modems are pretty much gone at a lot of places. UM dropped them years back due to rapidly declining use. If people have access to reasonably priced broadband they usually go for it. Or else they go with a dial-in ISP and then come in via the Internet. There is always the potential cost of long-distance (depending on your phone plan) if you dial-in directly from out of the area. So it's probably mostly local calls making the dial-in. You really don't need all that fast a modem to do command line Grex at a reasonable speed. Likely, those dialing in accepted what they were given in terms of modem speed without questioning it (with at least one exception). I doubt we want to promote modem usage at this point for both maintenance and budget reasons.
Reminds me of the guy in Hangover asking if his pager will work in the casino
Re: #27 What is this "new system where dial up file transfer is slower and more difficult"? What was the old system?
resp:29 "I find it annoying when people insist that their way of doing things is always best under all circumstances." Uh, hey pot? It's for you; Kettle's calling.
it might be wise to keep one line
For what, I wonder?
Connecting to a computer system via a telephone line is a self-limiting phenomenon. The more time passes, the fewer persons there are who would be willing to do so, even if they had both the equipment and the knowledge to do so. Unless the purpose is to maintain an intentionally archaic technology (which would be completely incompatible with the goal of operating a community with any commonality other than a strong interest in a very specific archaic technology), there is no logical justification for keeping a direct dial-up connection available. There is no wisdom in keeping a direct dial-up connection to Grex. I even doubt there is any wisdom in keeping Grex hosted directly on a hardware platform when it's capabilities compared to those of modern commodity hardware suggest that Grex should exist in an entirely virtualized machine environment. There, I said it. If Grex is to be maintained, set it up as a virtual machine hosted on a contract basis with a company who will provide and maintain the hardware and the connectivity, and allow Grex users and staff to customize the inside of the virtual environment unendingly without having to worry about phonelines, dying disk drives, i/o capacities, etc. Backups of the entire system could be simple and automated, and downtime would be practically nonexistent.
(where's the 'like' button?) ;-)
I strongly agree with Eric's #38.
I also agree with resp:38.
grex will be dead in a year anyway. Might as well spend some of cash it's got
resp:29: Like I said, you're doing it wrong. I've used dial-up to ssh and telnet for work on and off for over 10 years. It's pretty much the same dialing in directly as it is sshing in. I suppose perhaps it's not if you're using a cheap/free service to do it since they're going to be overloaded, and, well, you get what you pay for, but otherwise it works just as well.
I never managed to get what I see on the screen to print to my local printer except when dialed directly (with DOS, don't recall if linux works).
What a change from the time when there were active users here who did not want Grex on the 'net and would call for Grex drop its 'net service and add more dialins. They said Grex should never have gone on the 'net to begin with, that all it ever needed or would ever need was enough dialin lines.
Re #44: you don't have a "print screen" app?
resp:38 I agree with most of it, but I still am hesitant about the virtualization side of things. The offerings aren't there yet. That said, valid points about community support with respect to virtualization have been raised, and should not be ignored. resp:44 Sounds like a problem on your end.
you should use the cash to buy beer at your lunches.
Second. ;-)
Re resp:47 - "I agree with most of it, but I still am hesitant about the virtualization side of things. The offerings aren't there yet." What's missing?
Ugh; the connection is too slow to type it all from Afghanistan. But the comments are already on Grex, and hav been largely unaddressed.
I don't want to print screen. I want to print the text on the screen, as text.
Use an xterm or similar terminal from your Linux box and then cut and past the text into an editor and print from there. I can do the same thing from Windows. It's not all that difficult or time-consuming. And you'll have a copy of what you are printing in the editor in case the printer fails.
Any way you put it, the operator is broke on keesan's issue. 1 person's inability to figure out how to print is not a good enough reason to keep dialin's, IMO.
I agree.
I either cut-and-paste directly from the screen to (say) textedit, or save to my directory to edit it slightly before doing the same.
I think dialed-in linux also did not print. In DOS there is a simple command that lets you print your mail from Pine (Ctrl-Y?). I can of course save and then do a file transfer but it takes longer. You don't need X to cut and paste in linux. Screen and splitvt let you do it with the keyboard. It was much quicker in DOS. I can access grex via TCPIP from DOS.
The print command in the current version of Pine is %. Can anyone get it to work with their local printer in linux? It prints to screen for me.
If you're on the console, then yeah, sure you can cut and paste. But X is much better to use if you want multiple windows open such as for programming, (and yes, you can have multiple consoles, just that you can't see them all at the same time). What I don't get is why all the issues with problems that were solved decades ago? Move on, already.
"I can of course save and then do a file transfer but it takes longer." Everything you do now seems to take longer. 8^}
Can you print what you see on the screen, in text mode, to your local printer, by typing one character? This problem is not related to dialup, just the Pine printing command. I can use splitvt or screen for multiple windows and I am not usually programming while reading email at grex.
It's likely a terminal program issue.
Can anyone else log in to grex (dialup or otherwise) using linux console, read a mail with Pine, type % and print to their local printer? I am currently set for VT100 but terminal type linux I think had the same lack of response. It prints to screen not printer.
sindi, do you ever use vim/?
resp:63 I seriously think that you're the only one who wants to.
Sounds like nobody is willing to try to make Pine print directly in linux. I use pico or nano. I have tried vi and some day will really learn it. I also can't use fronttalk from Windows or even Puppy Linux (ssh or telnet) unless I ssh from grex to sdf and back.
get a real system with a good connection and your problems are over.
I do recall printing directly from pine many computers, systems, and connections ago. I can't recall how it is done. But since you can do anything with Linux, you should be able to write a script to print from pine (I couldn't, though).
Can anyone print with %? I am not a linux programmer.
I don't have any messages in my inbox to print so I can't test it
You could email yourself a message. Is there some way to print directly from home directory?
You could try setting your terminal to vt100 as well and seeing if that worked.
My terminal is set to vt100. I also tried linux.
You said earlier your terminal type was set to linux, now you said it's vt100. Which is it?
I have used both. I messed up a file (.login?, .cshrc?) and copied over Jim's fresh one which was set to vt100 recently. Neither lets me print in linux. Or use fronttalk from Windows or Puppy Linux telnet or ssh.
Long-time user and BBS lurker here...I started with Grex years ago when it ran on Sun hardware -- my first experience with UNIX. I still use the dialins now and then...I believe last time was from a 1200 baud modem connected to an Apple IIe a few months ago (it's usually more often when I'm not off at college). I'll be sad to see the dialins go, but if usage is that low, I agree that they should be terminated. If nothing else, I can connect to my Linux box via null modem cable and telnet/ssh to Grex.
Thanks for the feedback (and understanding), glitch.
<burp>
The dialup lines and Lynx are the reasons I joined GREX. It's the only way I can connect to the internet on my 286. I used this as my only computer for years untill my living situation changed. I curently connect via a laptop with WIFI. In a few months I will be moving once again and will return to using my 286. In my current living situation I cannot connect via dialup because I am without a landline phone. I would be VERY dissapointed to see dialup access droped. If the lines recive low useage I would recomend droping one of the lines instead of both. Although I can recall times when I had to dial the seconed number because the first was busy. Dialup access is important, it's what sets GREX apart from the other remaning BBS's.
Perhaps those wanting the dialup should get together and agree to pay for it? What's wrong with using your laptop and scapping the 286?
Probably saeger is moving some placed without free wifi access. If it is some place in Michigan, get a free dialup account with dialinfree, and outside of Michigan someone mentioned another free dialup service. There are also cheap services. vt.isp was $4/month last I knew. Rane and I are among the last people to use grex dialup and I have not done so for a few months now.
The problems we have with the dialup lines are: 1. not enough usage and 2. not enough money coming in to pay for them. If we still had dozens of users with memberships to pay for them, it wouldn't be an issue to keep them. But right now, we're slowly but surely going broke, so dropping this on-going cost is one thing we can do to slow down that slide. As others have mentioned, there are alternatives for dial-in (and free ones to boot). If, by some odd chance, dial-up modems come back into vogue and there is a great demand for the lines, we can discuss putting them back in. But I rather doubt we will see that demand. If someone (or a group of someones) wants to pay the monthly cost of a line, we could discuss that as an alternative to removal.
I haven't used dialup - anywhere - for years. I don't even have a modem that will work with any of my computers.
http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/voice/thread?tid=0c71b883aeab0711&hl= en
Re 83: same for me. Well, I do have an external modem I could use, but I've a got decent download speed from the cable company, so no need to use it.
What would maintaining a single dialin cost per month? If it's low enough, perhaps the few of us who do still use the dialins could pay to keep one of them up.
I don't think it is a lot. Maybe $20/mo per line. So all it would take to keep one up is $240/year and if there is enough interest, I am sure the board will consider keeping one around. If that $20/mo is in the ball park, it would be in grex's best interest to keep a dial up line if it brings in only four annual memberships.
Shouldn't the "fee" for dialups be in addition to the general dues?
It depends. If grex can get 4 or more additional memberships (i.e memberships that grex would not otherwise get) because of a dial up line then it would make sense to keep it. why? 12 mos x $20 = $240 and 4 x $60 = $240
A single line residential line is $39 and change, after taxes and fees. If I see Mark Conger tomorrow I'll ask about Grex's phone bill.
My residential phone line is $29 including fees and taxes. Ask Mark to contact us about a reel-to-reel tape deck Jim fixed for him to use.
Thanks, Mary. If we could get usage statistics from the last 6 months that'd give us a better idea of actual usage. What we've heard up to now is that usage is so abysmally low (24 minutes in one month) that it doesn't justify paying for the lines or having the staff potentially spend time to keep them working for dialup. Even if the lines were paid for, we'd still require staff to maintain them (such as previous discussion of better modems). Can staff give us such a report? Or are we limited to just the last month?
resp:90 Is that because Grex is not eligible for the $19.75 residential plan advertised on ATT's web site?
I bet that's for 6 months... Re #89: that just pays for the dialin - it doesn't support the rest of Grex, which the dialins would still be using.
I'd like to hear from someone who comes in on dialup (or has a modem) if dialinfree works. If it does, cool, it's time to make the move. If it doesn't, we'll have to decide whether we can afford to maintain even one line for so few users. I really don't want to move into anyone paying for a specific service. That just seems wrong and then puts us into contract mode where we're obligated to support this access, possible ahead of everything else our volunteer staff has to cover.
resp:94 I guess but I pay around $30 for my land line and I have a lot of features grex doesn't need. I suspect there is probably a different pricing structure for business vs residential customers. Regardless, if it is more like $40/mo than the marginal increase in memberships per year would have to be 8. I thought 4 would be a stretch. I don't think 8 is very likely. I agree with Mary that outright charging people for dial up service is probably a bad idea.
I pay $29 without any features. I have been using dialinfree with grex for years now.
As a non-profit, we can take donations with a purpose and put them toward a service. It does not need to be seen as charging people for a service. If we do try to get a new machine and use it as fund-raiser, that would be no different.
I doubt the costs associated with "maintaining" dialup access are all that great in terms of time and money. If a subgroup of users are willing to cover the costs, then I can't see any good reason for grex to ignore such efforts by that group.
I'd certainly be willing to become a full, paying member if it'd help keep the dialins up -- my girlfriend and I use them when we're traveling and can't get to a free Internet connection, since many of our relatives live out in the country. While I'm geographically distant from the actual servers, I'd also be willing to donate time in keeping the dialin managed.
Do your relatives live in Michigan? One month's membership is only $5 or $6, not enough for one phone line.
If you get enough users donating to cover the cost of one dialin connection, won't they have frequent conflicts of use, and perhaps find the service unsatisfactory for that reason?
@101: no, but i've generated a script for minicom that allows the use of a calling card with dialins. Usually you're stuck with lower speeds, but for signing in to check e-mail and such it's fine. With as little dialin access as has been reported, I wouldn't think that there would be enough use to make a single line inconvenient. Even if two people called at the same time, with 24 min/month, you'd just have to wait a few minutes and call again.
Mark said Grex's phone bill comes to between $50 and $60 a month, for the two lines.
Can you instead of calling grex using TCP/IP and call dialinfree?
Sure, I can call through a free dialup service, but it's often faster to connect directly to grex due to poor connection quality out in the country. I've put the word out to see if there's any interests in subscribed memberships on a few of the Internet forums I frequent. Both of them have a strong vintage computer following, so they're the sort of people who are likely to be interested in dialin public UNIX (many of them use SDF).
Another issue with maintaining dialin lines is that it makes moving to a virtualized hardware solution somewhat more difficult.
there's cross...fuck you richard
Remember dial-up BBS? Notice the "Remember" at the beginning of this post? Seems like a no-brainer to me. (but I get that alot) Are the dial in lines supposed to be to allow free internet access? or free access to grex? If I needed to connect to grex via dial-up it would not be free for me. I think if grex is going to keep dial in lines it should also offer a toll free number or frankly, I don't get it. If it is just a service for Local residents of Ann Arbor then it can all go back to someones basement (and their dreams.) What _was_ the dream anyway?
att ahs yet to resppod .. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
att has responded ... in theory (he siad) the 2nd line is no w toast.
howeer, as jsut noted in another item, the line stil answers with modem noixes ... but, accordint to the rep, the billing has stopped. we shall see
we saw .. no longer in service
You can dial in free using VOIP.
And on the one remaining Grex modem line...
You have several choices: