Welcome to the new Coop. We're in version 14! This time, I have editiorial rights to the Bylaws, which I'm sure need to be brought up to date with votes that have occurred since it was last edited. I think remmers may be able to help me with this, but if you notice anything, let me hear about it. I've brought over all of this year's Treasurer's Reports, Board Agendas, and Board Meeting Minutes. I linked any item that's had a response in the past two weeks. Again, if you want some other item here for reference, let me know.50 responses total.
Colleen, here is some background. The bylaws live in /usr/local/grexdoc/archives/bylaws . When there is a member vote that changes the bylaws I have done the editing to reflect the approved ammendment. I pull up the last version of the document, make the exact approved changes, and save the document with a new version number appended to the file name. This system has worked pretty well by keeping archival copies of all versions as they were approved. Yet it's pretty clear which is the current (last) version. The current bylaws (which you've posted here) are at: /usr/local/grexdoc/archives/bylaws/bylaws.v6 What file are you intending to edit? Or maybe you mean you'd simply edit the text you've entered in this item to reflect any changes? Would you rather I keep a copy of the latest version at something like: /usr/local/grexdoc/archives/bylaws/bylaws.current and you could link to that knowing it would stay up to date?
The conference header of coop14 says "Welcome to the Co-op Conference [Ver 13]", the same as coop13.
No need to link the spam item, but I am still getting spam filter requests, 13 so far.
Thanks kingjon, I'll fix that. Mary, I would like to have a current version here as well, so I'll be updating that item. But I have no problem using your edits, so that everything stays in sync. Sindi, is that 13 total since Feb 27? Or 13 new ones since your last report?
Regarding #1; How about using a tool to keep track of the revisions? Like RCS?
What's RCS?
13 total requests for spam filters, all but 3 from strangers.
Regarding #6; Revision control software; it allows you to maintain history of files and coordinate changes among multiple people in a simple way. In a nutshell, old versions of a document are stored in a text file called (originally) an RCS file; the RCS file contains enough information that any previously `checked in' version of the file can be reconstructed by request. Users `check out' a file to edit it; once they're done, they `check in' their changes. Only one user can have a file checked out at a time to change it, though essentially anyone can read it at any time. Check out the man pages for `rcs', `co' and `ci'. A not-bad-looking tutorial on how to use the tools is here: http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dbutler/tutorials/winter96/rcs/
re #6: RCS stands for "Revision Control System". It's a system originally designed to aid teams of programmers who were working on a shared set of source code files by creating tools to manage a single version of the file and keep a log of revisions, allowing retrieval of previous versions, comparisons of different revisions, and other features. Although originally designed for keeping program source code, RCS and similar revision-tracking systems can be used for a wide variety of documents. Basically what happens is this: before you can edit a document that's controlled by RCS you have to "check it out". Once you've got it checked out, you can make changes or whatever, but nobody else sees those changes until you check your copy back in. If you're the only one who has been editing it, the version you checked in becomes the new version (but the old version is kept around, too, and people can look at the edit history and elect to get a different version to work from.) If someone else made edits when you had your copy checked out then you're given a chance to reconcile your edits with theirs when you check your copy back in. The idea is to create a mechanism where if two people are trying to edit the same document one's changes don't simply get over-written by whoever saves their copy last.
re #8: apparently it's been a while since I've used RCS. I thought multiple people could have a copy of the file checked out, but maybe not..
Not in the canonical configuration. With RCS, there's one copy of the files under edit; with CVS and so on, multiple copies can be checked out into workspaces (or sandboxes, or whatever they call it; I forget the exact nomenclature). But by default, locks are strict in RCS.
I've used CVS, so I'm used to multiple simultaneous edits. However, I think in this case, it's like using excel to balance your handwritten check register. Far too complex for what we need. I'm happy with Mary editing the canonical version, to be kept somewhere else, and making sure I have the latest revisions here.
Agree. But thanks, Dan and Mike, for the explanation.
Sure.
Could we have an update on the number of users who have requested help in setting up spam filters?
13. One of them just wanted a whitelist. One wrote back asking if the spam filter was broken when the spam volume doubled recently. Another wrote asking why he was getting spams 'from' grexers (not the vandals, these were spams purporting to be from grexers, including the recipient). Someone else wrote me for help with something unrelated, which I forwarded to staff. Most of the people wrote within the first month. One of them reported back that 80% of spams were caught by spamassassin, after keeping track for a few days.
Is that the same 13 you reported in response 7 back in June?
I think I had one more request since June. Maybe nobody else cares about spam here.
I know I don't.
How about asking in motd for people to write to some address about whether they do or do not want to continue using grex for email, and if so, do they want their mail filtered?
Would you drop the system-wide mail filtering concept. If a total of 13 people were unable to deal with it individually, out of our thousands of users, I'd say we've already got our poll. The fact than no one in the past 3 months has requested this service is even more telling. We *were* conducting a poll. You were getting all the answers. People don't want this. Active conference users have vehemently expressed this. Let it go. As for a poll about offering email on grex, that will be a member vote, not an unprofessional attempt at polling. We won't argue about what the poll means. We'll just go with the results.
If only a minority of members use a particular service at grex, is that a reason to discontinue it? I never use party. Or play games.
(takes the bait). We are not talking about discontinuing a service because only a minority is using it. Please don't troll in here. Agora is a better place.
DO you propose to discontinue mail if a majority of paying members votes to do so? If not, what percentage of votes would you like to require? Obviously some of us still use grex mail. What is the purposes of putting it to a vote?
Regarding #24; I don't think we need to *eliminate* email right now, but if we make it *opt-in* for those few that are interested in it, and make it clear that it comes with almost no staff support, then that's a lot better than the current situation.
Thanks, Dan. You can refer new users to me for help with spam filtering. I think they should be warned there is no system filter. Were they going to get a choice between local-only and local-plus-outside mail?
Sindi, I don't think you understand: When I say `next to no staff support' I don't mean for spam filtering, I mean *for email totally*. So if there's an email problem, tough. If you lose your mail, tough. If you want some enhancement to email, it ain't gonna happen. New users would have to jump through some hoops to even get access to email.
Thanks, cross, for helping with the mail problem as much as you have done.
Sindi, if this proposal passes, new users will not get any email at all. They will not be given a choice. Socially validated users will have full access to email, with no staff support. This might be a limited-time solution, since socially validated users might still abuse email. If Social validation does not stop users from abusing email, we have some other choices. We can stop offering email altogether. Sentiment is building rapidly for this measure. We might continue to offer email with the cyberspace.org domain name, but do it through Gmail or something similar as Dan suggested. This would be an ongoing financial drain on Grex. We might make email available only to completely validated users. We might come up with some other idea. None of them will involve staff support for email or email problems.
I spent some time yesterday talking to a sales rep from Google about e-mail outsourcing for my ISP, but part of the conversation was relevant to Grex's situation, too. It looks like in Grex's case it can be done through Gmail for free. Web users can use a cyberspace.org-labelled web mail, command-line users can use fetchmail and have it delivered to a local mail client. Google prefers that most people use the web mail client because that's how they earn the advertising revenue that supports the service, but it's not a requirement. If it can be worked out that easily and cheaply, why on earth don't we?
Please explain how this would work, in detail, maybe with a template that we could edit (change 'user' to our own login, for instance).
Simple. The user would type "man fetchmail" on their local system and would configure the fetchmail client to download the mail via the pop protocol. The user could then do with it as they want. Since you are the only one demanding this, why don't you do the leg-work and tell us?
I am not going to use popmail under any name. I do not want to download large attachments. Please stop suggesting this.
Then I guess you're out of luck.
You are SOL, then. If you want it so bad, do it yourself. I gave you pointers to explanations of all the tools you would need. Quit whining, quit demanding and either do for yourself or shut the fuck up.
OK, I know that there's a substantial provocation factor here, but does that kind of response ever go anywhere useful?
Resp:36 Probably not.
Sindi, you need to stop being so hard-headed. First of all, running
fetchmail on Grex to download POPmail is going to download the
attachments to Grex and not your home computer. Thus it would be exactly
like having the e-mail delivered locally to grex. So please don't
automatically dismiss a solution at the first sound of "POP".
Here is an example .fetchmailrc file:
set postmaster "terrence"
set bouncemail
set properties ""
poll pop.gmail.com with proto POP3
user 'nharmon@cyberspace.org' there with password 'ilovesgmail' is
nharmon here
Basically, I would recommend you have your login script run fetchmail
when you log in, and then you could write a script to run it before
running pine and then alias "pine" to that script.
Mike, did you happen to discuss with the person from Google about how accounts are set up? Obviously Grex would want a way of doing so automatically, or with minimal staff effort. I suppose it would be a great way of implementing an e-mail opt-in system. What about resetting passwords and other such things?
I discussed that primarily in the context of outsourcing issues for the ISP I work for and the answer may be different for the slightly different program that Grex, as a non-profit, would fall under, but in the case that I discussed with them there is a programming API available to the organization to handle account creation and removal. I suspect it can also deal with password resets, etc. I don't, of course, have any direct experience with it. I might be willing to investigate further next month and maybe set up a test program for a couple of users if Grex is willing to register a throwaway domain name that we can test with. I'm too busy this month to do anything on such a project, however.
nharmon, what would I change in the script other than the login and password? What is "terrence".
fetchmailconf is no longer complaining about a lack of python. Now it says there is no module Tkinter. I used the sample .fetchmailrc substituting my gmail address and password and my grex login on the user line, and the connection failed while I was trying to check with fetchmail -c -v (check verbose). Who/what is terrence?
Sindi, why don't you consolidate your running commentary into the Agora post where more people can find it and comment on it.
It would not be appropriate to link this one into Agora.
Sorry, "terrence" is a local login that should read "keesan". Not sure why that is in my fetchmailrc. Strange. Anyway, we may find a need to experiment with downloading mail from gmail. If I get some time in the next couple of days I can see what I can come up with in terms of a mini-howto or something.
re #41: By any chance did you read any of the Google search results I
pointed you towards? It might be easier to follow directions from
someone who has actually done this before than to ask nharmon, who would
have to figure it out first. Since other people have offered their
expertise why not use their information rather than request that he do
your work for you?
In general terms, you will probably need to:
a) enable POP mail retrieval for your Gmail account, which is not
turned on by default.
b) read Google's (or someone else's) directions on which ports and
what server name to use for incoming mail.
c) configure fetchmail accordingly.
Folks, PLEASE move this conversation.
Re #47: Good idea. This is the "welcome to the restarted coop conference" item. People aren't going to know to look for email discussion here. What's the best place to move the conversation to?
There is a discussion thread on exactly this topic in Agora. I would suggest linking THAT thread to garage. I'll copy and paste the relevant entries here, and freeze this thread.
Moved to Summer 2007 Agora Item 143.
You have several choices: