85 new of 334 responses total.
The main page has grexergallery link which is broken. Would it be okay to point this to the Grex Facebook page?
and i have 2 diffs and a pages.css in my homedir and i've sent mail to staff.. could someone patch :p
Not all the links in the grexer gallery are broken. But the vast majority are. I don't know about pointing to Facebook. It's generally not a good idea to direct people to another site since it hurts your own in terms of viewership/readership.
resp:249 Possible yes, advisable would be dubious, and useful I don't really think so. Bear in mind that most indexed files are somewhat different than relational databases: indexed files just give you some datum given a key. The relational model is a conceptually different way to organize data. resp:250 Sure. resp:251 I'll look at it shortly. resp:252 I think that Veek's talking about the old "grexergallery.net" that munkey ran; it contained pictures of grexers, but the site is long gone. I believe you're referring to the Grex users' pages page, which lists personal web sites of Grex users. The latter should be cleaned up with the dead links removed and new web sites added. The former I think we have two options for: either move it to Grex, or point to somewhere else, like facebook.
resp:251 Veek, I don't see any mail from you to staff; where are these patch files?
~/veek/FreeGrexServices.diff and pages.css (put in style/) Came from 'squeak'
Ah, that picture site's been out of service for quite a while, I think. The other day I went through all the links in the list of grexer's web pages and that page is mostly not working. I agree, cleaning out the broken links would work there even though it might result in not many links remaining. We can start over... I'd rather see the pictures moved to grex if they are still available and the people who posted them still want them displayed.
Me too. resp:255 Pushed. Note that most of the diffs had a chunk that failed to apply properly; all were at the end of the file, in the footer. See ~cross/*.rej for the details. I'm not really feeling the font, and a lot of the content still needs to be updated. Specifically, we need to be recommending SSH, not telnet. And when we talk about membership for accessing external services, we need to talk about verification; the two really are distinct.
resp:256 By the way, one of the difficulties with just pulling the data onto Grex is that it was backed by some custom PHP and database code. We'll have to get that, too; as I recall, users could upload their own files and things. Does anyone have any ability to get in touch with munkey? I sent her an email about this a few years ago, but never got a response.
resp:42 about having the phantasia game available. It is. > which phantasia /suid/games/phantasia
resp:258 ah nm, i'll do it in perl. resp:257 the font's the same one used by the main page.. Trebuchet. You mean font-size? Also, I'm still working on layout (css, color, size, look).. the content's easy to fix but things like browser-compatibility are troublesome because it's relative sizes(em %) so Konq has a different idea of "normal" than FF. chunks, no newline at eof - will fix. resp:255 'squeak' oops had to change that for IRC.. i was picking up flak resp:252 it's utility that should matter.. i dislike FB but.. everyone else seems to like it.. broken links.. yeah, it would be best to script that to homedir creation/deletion..
patch plz. ~veek/latest.diff (mail sent)
resp:261 It doesn't quite pass my code review. Please: Rename "pgfooter" to "pagefooter" and change the CSS document accordingly. In general, please spell out words instead of using abbreviations unless it really is too long.
fixed. new mail sent. can i update to svn directly and save on the mail/notify overhead? there is rollback afterall.
Not yet. In things like, "users.xhtml", why do we have constructions
like this:
<h2><a id="T">T</a></h2>
The "<h2>" tag can have an "id" attribute; this is better written as:
<h2 id="T">T</h2>
There's a lot of that that needs to be cleaned up.
Also, I see a lot of tags like <u> in there; I'd rather we replaced
those with either <em> or <strong> or CSS; <u> tags are on their way
out.
1. 'cause I didn't add that :p 2. i did clean it up elsewhere (i think). 3. that page is filled with broken links and is best autogenerated by script.. so, if i clean up the whole thing, i'll just have to junk it later. 4. will fix the u - it's been depreciated in 4 and will be obsolete in 5 but it's okay for now. none of the lists on that page render in FF so could we patch and i'll fix it in the next pass (day or two). tomorrow is monday and i'm not a CS grad. if you update something in that time, i don't want to spend time looking for changes.
Fix the <u>'s and let me know and I'll patch in what you've got.
cool! i am for less horrible not perfect <g>
s/am/aim
While it's true that steady incremental progress is better than perfection that never comes, I also think that attention to detail is extremely important. What we're doing right now, for lack of a better term, is refactoring the web site. A lot of what's wrong with it is that it tried to do too much, and in that, lots of little details are wrong. The web site is basically dead right now, and we're trying to bring it back to life. But it died the death of a thousand paper cuts through neglect and lack of updates. We have an opportunity now to start fixing those little things, and making the details right. So pay attention to stuff like what's deprecated, and what's not, and also to the little things: proper spacing, making sure that lines don't get too long (try to keep them around 72 characters or less, so they'll look good in a diff in a standard terminal window). Keep things professional: no extra blank spaces at the ends of lines and things like that. Spell words out. Use proper grammar. Don't overuse punctuation!!! Keep things short, succinct and correct.
Ow! Those papercuts hurt! Thanks to both of you for working on the site. As Dan has pointed out to me at least once or twice, we have xmlwf installed to check the xml code for issues. Also, it's a good idea to run 'spell' or 'aspell' on the files to look for misspelled words (and correct them).
resp:269 i think i am following (spacing, indentation etc). The U tag are depreciated in HTML4, which means that when browsers switch to html5 we'll have a problem BUT it also means that many of the HTML5 tags don't work now! I know that what you are saying about not using depreciated tags is technically correct.. but tell me something.. faq.xhtml was patched recently but blockquotes was left as is.. when it encloses Unix shell commands. Strictly speaking we should be using code, pre, samp.. also, the list tags don't render in FF on linux.. (and i'm not blaming you and shit like that) My point is: 1. the browser world is all about making compromises! U tags if left as is for the time being, won't kill anyone and can be fixed once we have a handle on the rest of the layout! 2. You yourself work in increments! (the blockquotes). It looks good in lynx but code/samp should be used or styles. You didn't fix it overnight now did you?? But somehow you expect me to fix everything in one go?? And I AM WILLING TO DO THAT! Problem is, while i spend a month fixing stuff in my local copy (on my home PC), you will continue to push your incremental patches SO when I try to sync with Grex the document will have changed by then, and I'll have to spend quality time staring at diff's.. wondering what has changed and where, and try to retype your work into my "old" code.. (this has happened when you made changes to faq.xhtml pine->Alpine. I had the whole thing ready to sync and I had to look at diffs to see what had changed. Finally i just redid my work with the "new" page.) It makes far more sense to just patch it quickly once a substantial amt of work is done - and bug fix quickly. Maybe an expert in reading diffs will have no problem, and when you get someone like that who actually does some work.. then we can follow a slower patch policy..
'course i could be missing some sekret svn command to solve all this :p
or let me put it in a much simpler way.. you didn't ask for volunteers at a CS PhD program at Harvard. I know what you are saying about U tags is correct, but I think I would find it easier to work with quick patches and rollbacks. It's way more satisfying/gratifying in any case! :) unless it's a root hole.. in which case feel free to point it out strenuously..
Hi veek. What we've been doing is working on HTML code that has been in place since the dawn of time. Dan fixed it up for formatting and made it work for xhtml a few years back. But there are still a ton of old-style/version tags and ways of doing things in there. And bear in mind, too, that way back, probably a dozen people worked on the site off and on over the years, so that probably introduced some other inconsistencies. Do the best you can and if you run into issues let us all know as you have been, and maybe something can be done (or ignored). I appreciate what you are doing to make it better!
w0w .. veek/squeak is a asset ... tnx
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*tackles tsty and sits on his head* :p thanks. hey kent, those old pages.. are they some place i can dl?? I'll send the latest patch soon.
Since the grex web site is in SVN, I suspect you an get the really old stuff from the repository. Just pull an older revision of a file. However, what I was referring to was the state of the current site. Just about any directory off the root is likely to have seen less work and be in an older state of development. Note that some pages should remain with old content, such as the original bylaws and other historical documents (e.g. lawsuit and incorporation documents). But that's not to say we shouldn't fix the HTML code for those if it's out of date or out of compliance.
In terms of downloading the files, I've been tar.gz'ing a local copy of the repository and downloading that for testing with other browsers.
patch is uploaded (~veek/latest.diff), will send mail now. (no u tag and other updates) thanks kent, will do. Ah! tar.gz yeah me too! I was pondering that, but it's best vs rsync at least for now. -- http://www.cyberspace.org/~veek/ if there's a problem with da patch.
also, what kind of mail quotas do we have??
resp:271 Whoa, simmer down there, veek. What you are describing is just the reality of working in a shared development environment. That's one reason it's often easier to submit patches rapidly, with small changes in them. When you talk about integrating changes out of the head branch, use the tools to help you do that automatically; svn update is a handy thing. If there's a conflict between something in the trunk and what you've done, then it will tell you and you can fix the conflict. Otherwise, it'll just merge it in automatically. As far as deprecated tags, it's incremental improvement. Nothing happens over night, but if you're digging into it, maybe it's good to fix those at the same time. This web stuff is not that hard; certainly, nothing one would find in the CS PhD program at Harvard or any decent school.
resp:281 I think the max mailbox size is like 50 megs or so. resp:280 Looking now.
resp:280 Hmm, a lot of chunks got rejected; I put most of them in ~cross/*.rej. Veek, and Kent, I'd recommend using subversion to download a copy of the repository directly to the machine you are doing the work on. This could look something like: % svn co svn+ssh://you@grex.org/var/svn/trunk/grex/web Then, you can do an "svn update" in your local copy and automatically pick up changes that have been synced to the mainline repository.
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resp:285 [re: svn] Yeah, basically; it will merge whatever you have done with whatever is in the repository. So, suppose I make a change at the top of a file and you make a change at the bottom. The changes don't conflict. Then, I submit my change; you do an "svn update" and pull in my latest changes. Then my change is automatically patched into the file, and your change is unaffected. Suppose that the changes do conflict, though; then Subversion will tell you there's a conflict and let you resolve it. So it won't clobber your changes. I think we shouldn't be underlining text at all. <u>'s should just go away and be replaced with emphasized or strong text.
resp:286 hmm.. well, maybe the diff will work now.. i did an update to the latest 1017 and then did svn diff.. it's copied: 'latest.diff' could you check?
it ought to work now! it gave me no errors when i did the update..
Yeah, give me a sec.
there could be a problem with the revision tags? I removed them from my html because svn was inserting span revision tags.. maybe if it's pattern matching.. it might fail
Yeah, it was the "$Id:$" tags screwing things up. I patched in your changes and pushed them to production.
Thanks, Dan. I was able to checkout the current web files and now can update them easily, I think. That will make this whole exercise much easier!
Huzzah!
Yup, svn up works on my end. So, we're good to go, I think.
I was wondering, what was the reason for 'validate' in the sense that.. when Grex was hit by Chad, what used to happen.. the box would hang with cpu at 98%, then someone had to go to reset the box? or call provide to have it rest?? So what's wrong with that..?? Provide didn't want to rest the box?? Or did the File-system conk-out after the reset?? What was the actual task that was sucking up staff time and causing so much inconvenience.. could someone clarify.. I took a look at the FS: /dev/wd0a 1008M 115M 843M 12% / /dev/wd0d 492M 9.6M 458M 2% /suid /dev/wd0f 31.5G 15.7G 14.3G 52% /usr /dev/wd0g 39.4G 13.2G 24.2G 35% /var /dev/wd0j 9.8G 5.5G 3.9G 58% /a /dev/wd0k 9.8G 2.8G 6.6G 30% /c /dev/wd0m 15.7G 5.8M 15.0G 0% /tmp /dev/wd0o 19.7G 845M 17.9G 4% /cyberspace /dev/nnpfs0 10.6G 0B 10.6G 0% /afs /dev/wd0a is what is critical to getting the box to boot right?? It's the rootFS so if the box is not shutdown cleanly it gets corrupted and fsck will bitch. It's also the smallest FS at 115MB on a 1GB partition. IF disk corruption and having to run to provide was the problem, why not install 2 root filesystems (mirror/duplicate - using dump/dd, /dev/ wd0a). Obviously you can only boot off one rootFS! But, lets say we bootup from wd0a because that's the default. Once Grex is running, point the bootloader to /dev/wd0b (our backup rootFS). Now chad comes along and crashes the box. You call provide, tell them reset please. They reset, and BECAUSE you've changed the boot order when Grex was running, it will load via the secondFS and come online. Presto! someone remote logsin, run fsck on the broken partition and you are up and running!! (it works on linux, and i could try downloading OBSD.. and checking.. but, is that the problem?) ---------------- Or, switch to using a journal?? Right now we are using OBSD's Fast file system.. http://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/geom-gjournal.html (but that would take time me thinks since we are on OpenBSD right now)
also if i upload patches, could someone patch?? Or do I have to wait till cross gets back.. 1 month he said.. worst case scenario..
I don't remember the details of what the vandals were doing, but the result was several days of downtime. We've some pretty capable sysadmins around here, and they could not find a way to keep the box or get it back up quickly, as motivated as they were to find a solution. If something as simple as you've suggested would have worked, it would have been implemented.
I've uploaded: ~veek/latest.diff could someone patch? Just to remind you, you should also know how to rollback :p
resp:295 What's the relative benefit of running a system that a user can take down at will while other users are using it but that can be rebooted easily, versus what we have now?
resp:298 It seems that much has already been applied. Did you sync your workspace after the last push before uploading this?
about rt here is a nearly typcial pos:
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Sincerely, the Minimalist
minimalist my rosy red ....
That was not necessary to make the point, TS.
i went bac to rt just to see stuff ... some chagnes seem to be impelmaented. more needed.
TS!! grrr! (and re the mail, it's not necessary that I do the duplicate FS thingy - anyone could) resp:299 ah! okay: 1. xyz hoses Grex - right now we got to go to provide because FFS doesn't journal. That's one task saved given that xyz could lie and sneak past validation in any case. Validation doesn't solve the lying problem.. (unless we insist on paypal for everyone!) I mean, nothing stops Chad from getting in right now! He just chooses not to! 2. Sure he could take the box down again and again, but now we can start banning his ips! and temporarily lock tor out! In fact we could nuke his whole subnet temporarily (1 month ban). With minimal downtime, he's not getting any reward in terms of squealing users and sysadmins having to run to provide.net. 3. It's easy to implement right? We need to resize a partition and extract 1Gb and then just dump to it. we could use diffs for stuff like password/shadow/group syncing. Or put in another hard disk.. 4. Validation can now be temporary. When under attack, Grex just locks things up without going to provide. Then we leisurely repair the mainFS and unlock(remove validate) at leisure.. --- I feel it's worth a shot, but like i said, if ppl don't like it.. (i'm not overly optimistic about our chances without validation.. i always thought validation would be a temporary thing..)
+another suggestion (which i don't like), could we use fsck with the YES (-y) option?? and md5sum to restore files that are corrupted??
We tried all that, veek. Banning IP addresses, tor end points, etc. None of it worked. Constantly rebooting the box just for people like Chad doesn't buy us much, and hurt us a lot (users who were doing things got denied the service of Grex; that's not cool). The present system raises the bar high enough that the Chads of the world are much less interested in bothering to attack Grex. I really don't see why you keep bringing this up. "Reboot when someone crashes us" is just not an acceptable strategy. Extra partitions don't really help with that. And seriously, WHY do you want to make this change? What's the point? Just to get rid of validation and resh? resp:301 So, since RT works by people sending email to it, it can get spam. What's your point, exactly?
resp:306 *sigh* because perma validation will kill us.. at least that's what I believe. Thing is, on IRC and places like that.. it's hard enough getting ppl to move to a Unix shell and unless they can quickly log on. anyway, i won't bring this up again (ever). I checked out to 1019 and svn diff'd, should work now.
resp:307 I've seen no evidence that validation will kill us, and lots of evidence that it won't. Like, the fact that almost all other similar services do some form of validation.
resp:307 Same errors. Do you have the <div id="pagefooter"> stuff in your client?
yeah! pagefooter is okay right??? i thought it was the revision tags.. but yeah rev tags are there as well in some of those docs.. let me check.. i got to sleep, tomorrow!
resp:308 yeah, but SDF is already established with a decent user-base.. oh well, try and see.. and you have smj constantly adding new features.. but really it's the regulars in com(party) that keep that place running (chicks).
resp:311 We add a lot of new features, too; just that no one pays much attention and we don't advertise them. And Grex used to have a well-established, large userbase as well: we lost that over time through neglect. Really, we need to fix the advertising and neglect thing before the restricted shell. And note that SDF has a restricted shell as well. resp:310 Yeah, pagefooter should be there. I don't see the Id stuff in the rejection chunks. I do see that it wants to change "pagefooter" back to "footer", which is clearly wrong.
resp:312 yeah.. that's true.. Grex is way better than SDF (imo)! I like the crowd on SDF but I dislike SDF itself.. i'd be pretty happy if they all moved here and left smj where he is. Adverts is fixed! flyer is ready for printing.. only the hacker.gif image may be copy-protected.. i just bummed that from somewhere.. maybe i'll ask my younger sib to draw it.. hmm.. well i'll try and install svn-server and try to replicate stuff..
I'm working on a web page that lists the software we have installed. Unfortunately, I can't work on it right now (later, yes) and of course, it'll be an on-going maintenance issue if we put in which version we have, so I'm thinking it might be best to leave that out for now. I've looked at a couple sites that list what we have and I didn't have time look into what it takes to make an update (that is, it isn't always obvious or easy to update some of those sites for our information, so would probably call for an e-mail to the admin on those sites. And of course, since year's Board is not in our web site, it's hard to prove I have the right to change things.).
s/since year's/since this year's/
(I *really* miss command-line access.)
What sort of commands are you missing on the web here?
Updating text files, like the one that contains the history of board membership. And if I could use svn or the like, I would have command-line access to grex, and so wouldn't need them.
As I recall, your situation is not the easiest to fix, though if we had a java-based SSH client on the Grex web page, you'd probably be pretty close (though I'm still not sure if that would meet your requirements). I suppose we could put in a web-based svn clent, too, for that matter. If it would work to edit files, it'd be okay, again, though I'm not sure that any allow that without downloading a file to your local machine. The ones I've seen just let you browse/view. If you had a secure command line, though, you could just use svn that way. Sounds like we might need a staff site that has the tools needed for this kind work (or an area of our main site that is only open to staff). This would be handy for staff who don't have their own computer handy, as long as they can find a web-browser. ...just some ideas.
arbornet has a java client.. you could bunny-hop??
Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing.
Yup, hopping worked for me.
The mindterm client is installed on Grex.
patch please ~veek/latest.diff [ i hope it works ] I stripped the $Id stuff out; couldn't create my own private repo to fool around with and verify for sure.. need more time to do that.
http://grex.org/mindterm/applet.html works, with some license accepting, to give a commandline on grex. There are quite a few options for this terminal, too.
re 325 .. retty neat but tehereare is a starnge situation. somehow, 'it' deciceded who i was --- in advance! and it was wroing also it capitalized the first letter of the loginid , which of cours is not correct. i was able to change the logoind to muself and login though. yeh, the licensing/security cert (whatever) needs to be 'accepted' but that;s not biggie.
So, basicaly, it works just fine and all these gripes are minor. I don't see where most people would be confused at all.
could someone try that patch? ~veek/latest.diff
resp:326 What kind of computer are you using at home? It probably picked up your login ID from that. resp:328 I'm not going to do that while I'm in India. Sorry.
(Though someone else can if they like. Updating web pages is fairly easy;
sync your web client,
1. cd <wherever>/grex/web/htdocs
2. svn update
3. patch --posix < ~veek/latest.diff
[Make sure nothing gets rejected]
4. svn status | awk '{print $2}' | xargs xmlwf
5. [look at the changes to make sure they are okay]
6. svn commit
7. ../tools/syncweb
And that's it.)
Thanks for the list of things that need to be done to make it work, Dan. As for the Mindterm, yes, it picks up your userid from your computer where you're running the term. It's not a big deal. It actually is a pretty decent terminal with a lot of options. We should consider putting it on the web page where more people can try it out (hopefully without all the licensing questions).
How about S/MIME validation? Like the new user is considered valid when they can sign a message to Grex? FTR, my primary purpose here is shell, especially emacs, not BBS. I do have a regular shell account at my alma mater but they require SSH whereas Grex still accepts telnet, which is a great thing when all you have is some random M$ crapware. (Yes, I know what putty is, so save yourself that explanation.) The rules against fiddling with open source projects are a little upsetting, but it is still a great place to test your raw ideas :-)
Note that telnet access at Grex is in deprecated status and may go away at any moment if staff feel the time is right. SSH is the preferred way to connect to Grex if you want terminal access.
If telnet goes away I will have to telnet some place else from the library to ssh to grex.
You have several choices: