45 new of 357 responses total.
Wow, you guys sure do write a lot while I'm gone. A few short notes (I don't have a lot of time right now to get too deep into the weeds. Such is life for me at the moment; at least no one has been able to kill me yet, though they've certainly tried). First, regarding the valerie issue. valerie mates wrote a script that deleted all of her posts in almost every Grex conference, save staff and maybe coop. She then used root privileges to delete her `baby diary' items in the parenting conference, though to my knowledge, she didn't delete anything else there. Grex staff was urged to restore those posts, but did not. As soon as it became apparent that staff would not restore the baby diary items, John Perry requested his divorce item to be deleted, and it was by Grex staff (I do not believe this was done by valerie mates, who, I *think* had revoked her own root access by then, but maybe I am wrong). It was requested that that, too, be restored but again, Grex staff declined. This then led to a series of member votes aimed at restoring the items, none of which were passed, and the number and frequency of such votes then led to a proposal that a certain percentage of grex's members would have to back a proposal before it could be brought to vote by the general membership, which passed and became grex policy. As I recall, both Mary and John Remmers were vehemently opposed to the deletion of the baby diary and divorce items and both lobbied hard to get them restored. The facts of this are, simply, that Grex --- as a whole and as a community --- compromised its free speech ethic here by supporting censorship. It really cannot be spun any other way. Was it democratic? Yes. But does that make it any less censorship? No. It just meant that the community democratically decided to censor itself. I think it's sad, and that it has permanently diminished Grex's claim to freedom of speech, but in the end, it's what the community wanted. Anyway, I just wanted to set the record straight on that. The idea of a second system sounds interesting, but I'm not sure it will do anything other than dilute the already existing one. That said, there might be a way to do both.... In order to explain that, though, one must ask the question, "What is Grex?" Some say it's a community, but it's more than that, really. It's the union of the users who use it, the system itself (including the software that runs it) and the activities of those users on that system. Consider this: the Grex community could move to any other conferencing system, but has not. Why not? Because that wouldn't be Grex. So there is something to be said for continuity in the technical sense, since that is part of the definition of the community. That is, the community is defined, at least in part, by the system it exists on. For proof, bear in mind that we actually lost a lot of users when we moved from the Sun to the current Grex machine (which was called `NextGrex': That is, the new hardware and the move to OpenBSD was the NextGrex project, not a re-invention of Grex as a system). Now, in this, I'll say that I think the hardware is more or less irrelevant at this point. We're running on x86 gear and will continue to do so probably until Grex ceases to exist. There's just nothing else out there that's viable to move to. So that part can be futzed with at will. The software, however, is much more integral to what Grex really is. People, for whatever odd reason, tend to get emotionally attached to software (be it operating systems, programming languages, or particular programs written in those languages and running on those operating systems). I get a sense of nostalgia whenever I use VMS or an older version of Unix or an IBM mainframe because that's what I "grew up" on, so to speak. Software has a much greater attachment than hardware for most people, and the Grex community is no different. Witness how many *years* it took to retire the PicoSpan program, despite having superior alternatives available. There's still some nostalgia for that, I'm quite sure. But here's the thing about software that, I think, is both interesting and relevant to the present discussion: software is *malleable*. It can be modified and shaped to be, essentially, whatever one would like. Why is this relevant? Well, Grex is now running on all open-source software; there is nothing here that we don't have the source code to, and the only thing I think there's any question about whether we have the right to modify is the "gate" program, because it's not clear what license Jan Wolter applied to it when he wrote it. Since it's available for download from his web site, I'd guess it's implicit that we can modify it as we see fit, but I really don't know if that's true or not, and I'm not a lawyer. I sent him email asking him about it some time ago (because we made a local change to support job control under fronttalk on OpenBSD), but he never responded. I doubt he cares, but perhaps someone who knows him better could ask.... Anyway, as I was saying, software is malleable. Meaning that it can be molded to be, essentially, whatever someone would like. All it takes is time and energy put into the software itself. If Grex would like to put a modern face on itself, then there's no reason it cannot do so and yet retain compatibility with the retro feel that some value so dearly. All it would take to do that would be some effort put into the software itself. In many ways, this is exactly what fronttalk is: a retro frontend to backtalk, which is a web-based conferencing system. If people want to extend the system in various ways, it's certainly *possible* to do so: just mold the software to be what people want. The thing that's lacking here is time, energy, and people. About a year ago, I wanted to do a lot of this kind of work, but, well, then I found out I'd be in Afghanistan, and here I am: typing this while leaning up against the side of a tent in Helmand Province, a 9mm handgun strapped to my hip with a couple of (loaded) magazines in case the base gets overrun. I'm afraid I'm hardly in a position to invest lots of effort into re-working Grex's software for at least another few months (and if I take one through the running lights, then forever). That's just the way it is. So I think that, perhaps, a good question to ask is *why* Grex isn't attracting the type of people who would be interested in doing that sort of thing? The answer to that is going to be a lot more illuminating, and I suspect that, in part, it has to do with the nature of the community itself. People have drifted away, but few people ever ask why. There's lots of speculation, but no one has polled those people to really get a feel for why they've moved on. For instance, has anyone thought to poll people like Marcus Watts, or even Steve Andre? Sure, the latter logs on, but only sporadically and he rarely participates in the BBS. Anyway, I guess the point is this: recreating Grex doesn't require throwing away the existing system; it just requires another layer of abstraction. Both can coexist happily on the same host. Actually, that's something that's sort of always intrigued me: the idea of multiple communities existing within the same physical (or virtual) space. I've thought about this quite a bit, and I know I've mentioned it here before (my "community of communities" idea); this grows out of a social observation I've made living in the physical world, that in any given physical space, there exist many, largely independent communities. Look around you sometime and you'll probably see what I mean; people with different friends and interests who comprise one community living next to another group, or hanging in some space that used by other such groups. Why couldn't Grex be that for virtual communities? Personally, I wish it was more of a draw for hacker types who are interested in neat technology stuff. I see SDF as being something like that, and wonder why we're different. I suspect that, at least in part, historically the Grex community has been so focused on making *one* coherent community versus fostering many using different software, etc, on the same machine. This is what many people think is meant when Grex says something like, "we're a conferencing system" versus, "we're a public access Unix system" or just, "we're a public system." Even the name implies a singular community.
I'd very much like to see Grex continue to exist on familiar software. If
staff were available to rewrite it - cool! But I don't see that happening,
alas.
I'm thinking about an experimental system (I'll call it The Ark for now) that
would exist as a Google group. I've been playing with it for a few weeks now
and here is a partial good news / bad news list:
Good News:
Free
No technical staff needed
It's cloud-based and independent of our hardware, software and Provide
A Google email account is not required
Discussions thread
Clean, intuitive look and feel (subjective, I know)
User "Pages" feature allows users to create personal web pages
A "Files" section allows members to upload individual files to share with
the group - this includes photos Group membership can be public or private
There is a administrative choice to allow content to be indexable Comments
can be read directly, through individual emails, as a daily digest, or RSS
Users can delete their own posts
Bad News:
It's not Backtalk and folks would have to suffer a learning curve
It seems to be designed for optimal use via email
When reading directly (not email) posts seem to take a while to update as
read Groups membership requires a Google account (but not Google email)
It's not Backtalk!
I'm sure there are many more issues (good and bad) than what I'm listing here.
Again, the idea here is it would be an experiment, taking volunteers from this
community and trying out different access, setting and delivery modes. We'll
learn a lot as we go along.
Here is a Google groups site set-up a few months ago that I've been using to
test things out:
http://groups.google.com/group/grextalk
At the moment it's set to let anyone read it but you must be a member to post.
Membership must be okayed by a moderator. Until today it was open to all and
it had collected a fair amount of spam. I deleted most of it but left a few
so that those on the board who want to futz with it could do so. Let me know
and I'll include you as a manager so you can see the available choices. This
Grex Talk group will not be morphing into The Ark. If the board decides to
try this it will be with a fresh start.
Foobar formatting. Sorry.
Dan makes some good points, especially regarding programming and the flexibility of applications that can be gained through programming. Instead of bemoaning the fact that we don't have people who can do the necessary programming (or anything else on Grex), why don't we see if there are those who can? It'll take some enthusiasm and some imagination and some time but it's not impossible. And it's not a bad thing if you can keep your "comfort food" while others get a newer interface, unless you feel like you need deny others their satisfaction. Grex has forgotten the innovative and inventive spirit and enthusiasm that got it going in the first place. Refuse to change with the times and get left behind. Not all change is good (remember New Coke?), but a total lack of change is generally the death of an organization, especially when technology and society move away from what the organization is doing (like Blockbuster). Grex should not be the buggywhip manufacturer of the Internet (though undoubtedly some people still use buggywhips) if it hopes to revive itself. It's not too late to remember.
re #316 I think grex has forgotten the communal spirit in which it was founded. MNet had started as this liberal idealistic place, but then it was bought by this guy who needed to see a return on his investment and made business decisions. Grex was started by disaffected MNet users who wanted to be part of a community in which everyone could have an equal stake, where one person didn't own it. Where everything was shared and the objectives were the common good, an internet community that users could be part of and where nobody was more important than anyone else. Grex was seemingly intended as a microexample of what society itself could be if people worked together. What has happened is that the communal idea, of grex as a community where the users collectively build something that is a whole of all of its parts and everyone shares of what it becomes, has been overrun by those with a libertarian ethic. With all the freedoms it offered, Grex has ended up becoming not the bastion for liberal idealism and community that was intended, but rather a haven instead for those who don't want a community, who don't care about a community. The idealistic liberals and progressives who founded this place and used to post here have been replaced by libertarians and conservatives, those whose basic idea of community is not to have one but to be left alone. Somewhere along the line Grex ceased being a community, and the great idea behind its founding was lost. Now its a place where right wingers, libertarians and trolls, none of whom have or had any desire to see Grex grow or thrive as a community, but all of whom can take advantage of Grex's lack of moderation and censorship, are most of whats left. Grex was a great idea once. But that was a then. Now its just like an old ship that lost most of its crew a long time ago and because it was built sturdily and still sails, and hasn't sunk yet, pirates who couldn't give damn of what it was built for are content to sail it around until it sinks.
My point would be that Grex does not need to be one idea that has run its course. With some innovation and creativity, it might become a new community, using what it has learned from the past nearly 20 years. But, as Richard points out, it can't be a thriving community with people who don't care. We need enthusiasm for meaningful, purposeful change and doing things to help.
LOL...too little too late. gelinas is right...grex won't last the year
So you are unwilling to help?
look,it's over. Times have changes it's time to move on. Or take tonsters offer and let him set grex up like m-net. Our dues are like 15 bucks a year and we never go down. thanks tony
Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no! The dues are in the by-laws so it would take a by-law change to modify those. Not impossible, but would need enough voters. Considering we have money in the bank and need members more, it would make some sense to lower the dues as long as we could still pay for operations and improvements. Also, other similar services have lower dues, so from a competitive view, they should be lowered. For those who don't care about Grex succeeding, why are you still here?
Why don't we ask people to send in 3 months worth of dues? That's currently $18. According to our bylaws they will then be able to vote on a bylaw change to lower dues. The new, lower amount, could be made retroactive to, say, January 2010, so those that paid 3 months are now member for a year.
re #322 yes but it was also in the bylaws that you needed to be a current dues paying member to vote in elections and the board simply voted to ignore that part in December when it was apparent that almost nobody was a dues paying member at that point. The board simply decided that anybody who had ever been a member could vote. On the basis of that precedent, the board seems to be able to waive or ignore the bylaws as the need presents itself.
resp:324 I think that is a good idea
Re #322: "...the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"?
Rane. Don't walk...RUN... to the nearest movie rental place and rent the 1978 classic, "Animal House".
re #326 And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...
Re 324, so that's an excuse to repeat the mistakes of the past? I don't find that a credible argument. Exceptional circumstances sometimes call for exceptional measures but not necessarily now. Honestly, if people won't pay for a membership, even the Board, we are in big trouble. I've encouraged the Board to pay up to be in line with the by-laws. We'll see how that goes. The idea of a 3 month membership that could be made retroactive into a yearly membership sounds like a good idea to me, if we can get the by-laws changed to allow that. It would even apply to the Board.
I like Mary's idea of moving the conferencing to a new platform. If this is done, wouldn't a benefit of it be that the corporate structure of grex-- which is to say 'cyberspace communications, inc." could finally be disolved? It is beyond obvious that whatever users are left here are not really enough to support a corporation and there aren't any other non profit activities going on that this corporation supports.
Except I wasn't suggesting moving anything. Everything here would continue as it otherwise would. A second system would not look or behave anything like this one. It would be quite different, actually. Or at least that's my hope.
If the bylaws are changed to change the dues, I recommend that the bylaws simply give the Board the authority to set the dues. It is rather unusual for bylaws to give specific financial specifications, like dues.
greedy cocksuckers...
I don't think dues should be asked for unless the board submits a plan for the future of grex. Right now as Grex's future looks bleak and nothing changes, you aren't making an argument for why this organization is worth supporting. Don't raise dues, or even ask for dues, until things get better. If Grex proves itself viable again there will be support for it, n the meantime its bills are minimal and it has money in the bank to last at least another year. I would suggest that doing anything about dues right now should in no way be a priority.
a busted clock is right twice a day and richard has the day's first
I want to be a voting member so I'm sending in $18. Now, if nobody else does I guess it's all going to pretty much go my way. ;-)
resp:336 I was thinking of getting 10 of my closest friend memberships as gifts and then starting a movement to remove certain items by membership vote just to see if I could get people to complain about it for the next ENTIRE decade!
I've paid my dues for 6 months so there's a couple of us members that can vote. Plus the couple other paid up members. We're on a roll! :-) I do like the idea of a 3 month membership. [Lynne slipped in...]
Have the two phone lines been dropped yet? I don't want to be paying for lines that nobody is using.
re# 337 you were "thinking" i doubt if it amouted to much re#339 stfu shopping cart girl,you pay nothing anyway
Re 339: see coop item 279 for the decision on this. I've been told that the request for one line to be dropped has been made to the phone company. I'm unsure if that has occurred yet. It's up to the phone company once the request has been made.
Something that seems to be missed here.... Grex is not just the BBS and party. Grex is a collection of things that includes those two, but they are not the sum of what Grex is. If the conferences are not used, that just means that that one part of the community is dying; that doesn't mean that Grex isn't used for other things (it is, all the time: people login to Grex for interactive use of Unix). In fact, I'd guess that this latter group outweighs the former by quite a bit now.
grex should also set a date where it will stop offering offsite email. you want offsite email? go to hotmail or gmail. at one point offering free email was a needed service but that was years ago. grex doesn't need to be in the email business at all now. re #342 grex was formed to be a community, not to be a place where assorted people can play around with unix.
So much for the "intellectual enrichment" aspect of Grex's principles, then. Learning about Unix is intellectual enrichment for some. The idea that Grex is about one or two things just isn't so, as Dan points out. Grex is different things to different people. Included in that is learning about Unix and about programming languages (hence conferences dedicated to those topics). A community does not need to go forward in lockstep, doing the same one or two things all the time. A community can be diverse in terms of interests, too. I'd like to see Grex offer more opportunities for people to get interested in Unix, programming, system administration, and application development in addition to improving the conferencing system and adding other ways for people to communicate.
So agree with Kent.
Re 332: yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Putting in specific numbers for the dues just makes it harder to change if we need to. While that may have been the orginal intent, times (and the economy) have changed and will continue to change. Re 334: The Board is working on a plan right now. This item was for getting some ideas of what people want to see, as input into a plan. Speak up if you have ideas that will help in planning what Grex should do going forward. But remember, that just saying Grex needs to improve or be better is not specific to what needs to be done. My idea of "better" may not be your idea of "better." [Obligatory Disclaimer: Ideas expressed in this item may be used by Grex for planning the future operations of the system and the organization. No guarantee is given that ANY idea given here will end up in a final plan for Grex going forward or influence Grex's operations, but it's likely some will.] Re 342: In regard to adding more tools for programming, I mentioned that in response 8 above, so this item has not been all about the BBS and party, though certainly those have been in the majority of comments. Anyway, I'm all for tools and information that could help people program and use Unix, including new languages, debuggers, etc. Maybe we could even do some tutorials on our web site?
Learning unix on grex I feel is outdated especially when you can get a decent linux/freebsd etc boxes for quite cheap. Dirt cheap if sindi helps. I doubt anyone would take the trouble to connect to grex just to practise his unix skills. But then again its what i think. The actual usage of grex maybe quite opposite.
m-net has plenty of students that use it to learn unix.just login and do a "w" and see what they are doing.haven't seen too much of that on grex
And, not everyone has the time, skills, or money (even though it's not all that expensive since an old computer will do) to put together a linux/*bsd box to play on. People quite often need to learn Unix for school or for work and would rather invest their time in aspects other than building a unix box. If we can make that learning process easier so much the better (and it's in line with our mission).
resp:344 Kent hits it so on the head here. resp:343 Whatever Grex was formed to be is only tangentially relevant at this point, in my opinion.
I get most of my mail at grex and might go away if the mail goes away. sdf has no spam filter.
yeah well let us know when you have upgraded to win95
Plus has the Ted Nugent intro, right?
confirmed today that the 2nd phn line is suppposed to be NOW disconnected. i ->reeeeally<- do not like their specific procedure however. regardless, it is axxomplished.
Did you try calling it? :)
hmmmmmmmmmmmm , intersting idea .. just did ... it stil answers with modem noises ... but (according to to the att rep, the billing will have stoppped as of the req date. we shall see .....
intercept msg ... no longer in servidce
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