76 new of 126 responses total.
I think steve and glenda should have their root privileges pulled because they thing they're entitled to it, and there's nothing quite as offensive as entitlement.
I've heard that a lack of budget can be worse than entitlement.
(Rimshot).
I don't feel, and never have felt, that ANYONE was entitled to have root privileges. Only those that need them to do jobs requiring them should have them.
I don't see much utility in pointing fingers and playing the blame game
on newuser being off, but let's be honest: there wasn't any discussion
in the staff conference. Here's the only mention of the issue:
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response 555 of 559: Feb 14 19:26 EST 2008
Brought Grex back up after mickeyd crashed the system.
Newuser is off till we get it moderated or the latest version
of OpenBSD installed which fixes this problem.
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(That's from Steve. Of course, no one [including me] mentioned it
later.)
Further, it's worth noting that the following guidelines were posted by
Jan in April of 2007 on staff decision making:
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Policies on staff decision making Apr 2 12:55 EDT 2007
Last night we had some discussion of staff decision making procedures.
I've posted a summary of them to coop, but I thought a copy should go
here too.
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I guess I should have kept notes during the joint staff/board meeting.
I didn't. This is from memory. It was not run as a formal meeting, but
as a discussion to establish some ground procedures for how staff should
work.
Traditionally the Grex board has operated by consensus. We would
regularly meet, discuss things that needed to be done, and reach a
consensus on how an whether they should be done. This worked very well
for many years, but in the last few years has largely broken down.
Staff has actually met very infrequently, and it is hard to come to
consensus if you only discuss things on-line or in email. Furthermore,
many of the staff people who used to be very active (myself and Marcus,
notably) are now much less active, and do not always keep up with the
current issues on Grex. They've become kind of intermittant staff. How
do you form consensus with people who aren't even listening to the
discussion? We also increasingly have staff in remote locations, which
makes meetings to reach consensus more difficult.
Suggestions arising out of this include:
- Staff should resume meeting regularly, probably bi-monthly at least.
The conference phone should be available, so people can call in.
(Staff has not, however, scheduled it's next staff meeting. I
wonder if we should make a habit of meeting after board meetings?)
- The staff conference is to be considered the main place for
discussion of things to do. If a staff member raised a topic in
the staff conference, and got no negative feedback, they are
welcome to feel free to go ahead. They don't necessarily need to
seek input from people who aren't currently actively reading the
staff conference and keeping up on things, though they may, in
some cases, WANT to do so. We understand that staff members are
sometimes busy and have to drop out of the loop for a while, but
things need to be able to go on without them if they are out of
the loop.
- Some things don't actually require a lot of staff consensus.
In an emergency, the staff on hand need to act independently on
their own best judgement. They should obviously make an effort
to inform other staff of what they are doing or what the did.
Some changes to Grex are fairly limited and local. If you are
installing a newer version of 'tcl' that has very limited impact
on the system. The only thing you're doing that a regular user
couldn't do is putting it in a system directory where everyone
can easily access it. Modifying things more central the operating
system that might impact other parts of the system or overall
system security would require more discussion.
- Of course, other changes may require broader discussion in the
coop conference and/or at a board meeting. These are changes that
impact the user interface routinely experienced by many users,
or changes that have policy implications.
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Note the part on emergencies: it seems that Steve certainly acted within
the guidelines set forth by the board. The problem is that none of us
bothered to follow up (again, myself included).
Grex does have a problem: what to do with too lots of inactive staff who
plain don't have time and a community that has needs. How do we get
back to where we need to be?
Personally, I'd like to see some constructive input on this. Lar's and
Mary's button-pushing isn't getting us anywhere, and neither is the
complaining coming from tsty and Rane. Nor is my inaction. What's the
best course of action?
"Newuser is off till we get it moderated or the latest version of OpenBSD installed which fixes this problem." That's actually a somewhat reasonable answer to the big question. Too bad steve was to lazy to inform the people who actually USE the system. Maybe he didn't want to answer the inevitable question that would arrive next and that is WHEN can we expect one of those two things to happen? In any case I agree with cross that my button pushing accomplishes little. However, it did get some dialog started. It's too bad that some people will just sit back in total lethargy unless you troll them intense enough. And STeve still has yet to weigh in on this.
> What's the best course of action? Instead of insisting on a fix for everything at once, which seems to be what these discussions always degenerate into, how about if we focus on identifying one or two modest but achievable goals and make them the first priority with the hopes that forward progress might encourage more engagement?
> The staff conference is to be considered the main place for discussion > of things to do. Is this necessary? What percentage of staff work needs to be hidden from non-staff users? I would think not very much of it.
I think cross has pretty much blown glenda's claim( by pious fraud) that that newuser's status was discussed at length in staff. I wouldn't be too surprised if steve and glenda stormed in here and dumped the whole baby on cross and resigned
I wouldnt be surprised either considering the abuse that is being directed at them.
want some violin music with that whine? I mean they are SOOOOO abused.
While I am sure they cant possibly give a rats ass about your opinion, you have been somewhat nasty in your remarks. And it is clear as far as you are concerned that they cant win no matter what they do. They can't stay on because then they are hogging the root and keeping other staff members from doing anything and if they do resign, they're dumping the work onto others because of some emotional instability. You are attacking them personally. FWIW, it shows a lot more about your character than theirs.
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"You are attacking them personally. FWIW, it shows a lot more about your character than theirs. " Listen to this BS! If someone DARES to criticize them for acting in a arbitrary manner then it's classified as a "personal attack" and they call into question my character. It's funny to me that someone who supports the murder of babies in the womb can question anyones character.
"While I am sure they cant possibly give a rats ass about your opinion, you have been somewhat nasty in your remarks." That's the problem, he doesn't care about ANYONE's opinion and that's why he acts in such a prima dona manner.
Bringing my views about people's sovereignty over their own bodies into this discussion is just another example of the low blows you're making in this item. Again, something that says more about your character than any one else's. And fwiw, suggesting that someone is acting like a prima donna is more of a personal attack then merely stating that you believe someone is acting in an arbitrary manner. Do you really not understand how insulting you are being? Do you actually expect to be taken seriously by anyone?
I wish that you would quit lumping me in with your tirades against STeve. I am his wife, not his clone. I have never acted in an arbitrary manner in any staff capacity on Grex, unless you count my going over and rebooting it without checking in with anyone when I notice it is down and I am free to get there. I am uncomfortable with doing anything else on the system alone, I am not experienced enough. I am, however, very good at doing things under the direction of others when I am the only one physically available when something needs to be done NOW. I can be talked through almost any technical problem and am using this as a further learning tool as the hands on I don't get from the computer science program at Eastern. For you information, you can't take root away from me. I don't even know the current root password. I have to call another staff member to get it when I need to use it, I just don't use it often enough to keep it in my active memory. What have I ever done to you or Grex for you to be so up in my face against me?
a whiel back ... and would be consistent with today ... both STeve *and* glenda (and i) battled vandals on the typical as-needed basis. suggesting that EITHER ought to have root access pulled (whether or not it applies) is chin-droppingly stupifying in its scope - or lack of scope. i might need some defending (not really, but tha;s another story) but STeve, mcnally, jep, glenda, remmers, mdw, janc, (even popcorn, mostly) or other founders+ need none. i've probably missed a couple other ppl in whom i have implicit trust regardless of temptation. yeh, i missed cross, sorry. oh, scott is included (wehre is scott when you need him?) as well. .. umm, srw, i, gelinas and bhoward (while i;'m remembering the GoodGuys (tm). and , umm, whow was it that wnet to carnagie - root/board at 16? re 43 ... if i had maintained my skill level i would be glad to assist again. but i havne't so i can;t - thank you, regardless.
#68 could be read to imply that I was a grex founder. I was active on the system fairly early in its history, but I was not one of the founding group.
You know, I've had my fair share of *technical* disagreements with Steve, and I've questioned and, I think, been questioned on *technical* grounds with him, but honestly, I've never had anything personal against the guy (or against Glenda) or, for that matter, anyone else on staff (yes yes, I realize some would disagree with that; all I can say is that you probably misinterpreted my comments about something or another). Anyway, the point is, some of this is veering away from legitimate questioning of the status of the system and moving toward just bashing on the guy, which isn't productive. From my perspective, Steve seems like a really nice guy who I'd enjoy sitting down and having a technical conversation with. He seems like a devoted family man, and I have a lot of respect for that (same goes for Glenda, though I guess she's a family woman, not a family man). Lest this smack of hagiography, none of this is relevant to the running of Grex, and as everyone knows, Steve and I differ about the best approach to these. I suppose my point is, let's not get things confused. Someone's views on abortion, religion, etc, are totally irrelevant. What *is* relevant is our direction as a system, where we want to go, what we want to do, etc. To that end, I agree with McNally's idea about finding some small, attainable projects, and seeing them through to completion. What can we do, though? Any ideas?
"Bringing my views about people's sovereignty over their own bodies into this discussion is just another example of the low blows you're making in this item." You're the one that gets making desparing remarks about another's character. To criticize someone for making a decision you don't agree with Isn't a low blow. However, to try to spin the battle into a question of character is a way to weasel away from the salient issue. I have just as much to call into question your disgusting position of murdering babies as you do to question my tactics. I actually don't care what you think of my opinion. However, I don't think I have swung any low blows here. Not like YOU are trying to do. Now If I said something like "slynne, if your opinion carried as much weight as that fat ass of yours, then you could rule the world", then THAT would be a low blow. However,I'm not saying that.
I think at this point the thing most likely to improve the recoverability of the system in the event of an outage is finding a remote console solution. I don't have any experience with them, but it seems like there are many IP-based KVM solutions. Could we set something like that up so that the next time there's a crisis the recovery of the system doesn't depend on the Andres or the few other local-to-Ann-Arbor volunteers with access?
"What have I ever done to you or Grex for you to be so up in my face against me?" Who is "against" you? If you don't have root access then you are excluded from the topic. I don't have an issue with you being told the root password and being walked through some issues nor do I have aproblem with you rebooting the system without permission. That;s laughable and it (coupled with slynne's remarks about "low blows") is a misrepresentation of my position. I will restate it for clarification: I have an issue with someone who acts arbitrarily and without accountability to the community. Now,you made a statement that led me to believe that this issue had been discussed at length in staff.cf. cross then posted what was actually said. It showed that the statement you made was misleading hence the label "pious fraud". The label was directed at your statement.
I never said "discussed at length", I said that it was discussed. How am I not to believe that you are against me when you mention me by name every time you go into a tirade against STeve, especially since you are accusing me of doing the same things you say he is doing without knowing what my exact position on staff was. You just assumed that because I am related to him that I am just as bad as him in your eyes. I find that to be insulting. If you knew us, you would find that we have a lot of differences of opinion on a lot of things, Grex among them. In fact, STeve is one of the reasons that I have stayed around. If left to my own devices, I would have said the hell with it due to the actions of people like Chad, hera, jmpv (or whatever his login is), and you. I don't need this type of aggravation with everything else going on in my life right now. I stay because STeve says it is worth it in the long run and because of the friends that I have found here. I usually ignore jerks like you, and will now go back to doing so.
"I never said "discussed at length", I said that it was discussed." You attempted to make me believe the whole issue was discussed in staff and that it was a decision that you had agreed to. That's the innuendo expressed in that pious fraud of a statement. You can out whining like a spanked puppy with a persecution complex when cross posted what was actually posted there. You statement was a thinly veiled attempt at deception. Don't try to play the sympathy card when you are called out on it.
resp:72 I agree that that's a pretty obvious thing. Personally, I think we need to upgrade to a new machine with such functionality just built in. It would probably be pretty easy, but we need to spec something out and just buy it. The board discussed doing that, and make some steps toward actually doing it, but then got sidetracked (that was actually my fault: the task was mine, and I got so busy that it never happened). I will look again. An issue: when Grex got onto its present hardware, we sort of did it by buying the cheapest stuff we could. In retrospect, that was a bad idea, and a continued symptom of our past "cheapness." That is, our limited budget had forced us to be bottom feeders when it came to hardware. It further forced us to be clever when it came to stringing things together into a usable system. That was all well and good in and around the 90's, not so much later, but we got used to it and by the time we had actual money, we still thought about things in the old way. Some of the predictions about the unreliability of PC hardware that we'd fought off came true, but largely they were self-fulfilling prophecies that we subjected ourselves to, not functions of the hardware. Well, that was then. This incarnation of Grex has been running since late 2003 or thereabouts, and it's really time to upgrade to new hardware. In doing that, let's *not* nickle and dime ourselves into unreliability; we have the money, let's get some decent hardware and go from there.
resp:72 I like the idea of IP based KVM for grex but most of the devices I found after a quick google search seemed pretty expensive. I like the idea of new hardware but I think that qualifies as a big project.
Re. 74: Glenda, someone making a terse comment is not a discussion by any definition. It's not clear to me exactly how touching it is that you're trying to convince us you have no special quarter for your own husband. However, it is quite clear that you used what you believed to be your privileged access to the staff conference to mislead Grex's membership into thinking Steve's drastic action may have been well considered, robustly discussed, or possibly even something that had gained consensus among staff. It's also clear that, now that your deception has been plainly exposed, you're attempting to avoid responsibility by refusing to talk about it. Volunteer or no, using a position of authority to lie to the members of a corporation and indeed the members of what's purpoted to be an open community is simply unacceptable.
re 78 .. schooler ... umm, what yuor myopia misses is that a ;terse comment; is the usual ourcome of a long adn difficult discussion. your slurs exhibit al the pathos of an immature thinker - try again.
"it is quite clear that you used what you believed to be your privileged access to the staff conference to mislead Grex's membership into thinking Steve's drastic action may have been well considered, robustly discussed, or possibly even something that had gained consensus among staff." Thanks tarp, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who got that impression from her statement. It was a PIOUS FRAUD "now that your deception has been plainly exposed, you're attempting to avoid responsibility by refusing to talk about it." Hey, her not speaking is doing the rest of us a favor. I'm hoping this gets steve so pissed off he he comes busting in here like like a swat team.
Too many lars. Not enough delizias. Why online communities die.
resp:79 Yeah, except that that really didn't happen. That said, given the context, Steve's actions were NOT unreasonable. The real problem wasn't that newuser got turned off as a stopgap; the problem was that we never figured out how to turn it back on. resp:80 [last paragraph] I'm not sure what purpose that would serve. Are you trying to antagonize Steve into doing something so drastic that the resulting community uproar would toss him out of grex? I don't think that's likely to happen. resp:81 That just sounds bitter. And, frankly, a little lame: communities change over time, just like neighborhoods. It's not dying, it's changing. That it's changing to something you don't particularly care for is totally irrelevant, and speaks more about you than it does about everybody else. Now, that said, if you have something productive to add, we're all ears....
"Too many lars. Not enough delizias. Why online communities die." I thought it was because of morbidly obese ugly women.
Do you like what you see in YOUR mirror? Do you even bother to ever notice.
While we're at it, do you look ANY deeper, at ANY time, than surface?
Gawd, you're a lonely and bitter man...
heh, you must be one the fat ugly women cuz when you throw a stick in a pack of dogs, the one that yelps is the one that got it.
re #85 You totally missed the mark.
And Lar is off the rails again.
And that's how it goes millions of grexers losing contro-o-ol
If I can get out of this straitjacket I'm going to punch you...
Re #79: "your slurs exhibit al the pathos of an immature thinker - try again." I beg to differ: "an axe to grind" seems to be more appropriate. <bops the scholar on ze head - you seem to forget sweetie that there are elections held, so it *IS* an open community> Re #83: She isn't even close to being morbidly obese. You shouldn't abandon honesty when you attack someone, it looses all its *sting* *Mmm* my lunch is not half bad :) Cold chicken with rice+carrots but there is tangy bread with butter and just the right amount of tang to it :) I need that tangy-jammy recipe :) Actually, maybe, would it be possible to backup the Grex server and give complete root access to scholar, cdalten and lar just for like a month or so AFTER warning everyone?? Or maybe setup an alternate domain using VMware?? evvvilhax0r.cyberspace.org. Hmm come to think off it, scholar is a canuck, canucks have cheap bandwidth - can't he run a temporary thing on his home box and if things work out.. just a suggestion - I wouldn't dream of allowing scholar, chad and maybe lar near the actual grex server but maybe we could all login (and use different passwords for his box) and see how things are run there... Just a suggestion, no nasty flames please. It would resolve to some extent this problem.. It would be fun, it might really take off, we have another box to play with, and it would feel like Grex :)
Being lied to by an organisation I have donated hundreds of dollars to does sort of give me an ax to grind, yeah.
yeah, swindled and lied to
I didn't know scholar donated hundreds of dollars to Grex.
I don't have records of the exact amount, but I definitely donated quite a bit, especially compared to my income.
hmm.. I didn't know that Davvy, apologies.
Pt Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute
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polytarp is the one who got suckered into sending grex $$. Did you send them any? That's why I said sucker.
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ah okay, you should use "Re:" - Nope, not yet.
Over ten years, I have donated $600. Normal membership dues.
and getting $600 of out jim and sindi's budget is no small task.
Sheesh! Grr! I only just started working this month, and though I am a plutocrat right now, my main paycheck hasn't arrived as yet! Plus if you think I'm going to postpone my new computer by a additional few seconds from the moment the money hits my account, think again <glares at Lar and Sindi> I mean Sheesh! Grrr! Plus you guys are rolling in dough and it's not like you got Scrooge on your doorstep! And if you think I'm simply stalling think again! A new comp costs like 30-35K minimum with UPS. I mean sheesh I'm using a 400Mhz right now! And I need a new pair of shoes! Given that I have a surplus of 10K from one contract job and approximately 25K from the regular job (and god knows what the deductions will be on that) I might still wind up a little short!
How much is $600 dollars in Indian money ,veek?
600 U.S. dollars = 25525.3978 Indian rupees You can do a Google: 600 USD to INR and it will convert for you. Works for any currency i think. You can't compare currencies like that though.. price of articles is more accurate.
You can get a decent laptop for under 600 us,veek If you want a desktop you can get $299 although I don't know about the shipping: Laptop http://www.dell.com/content/default.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&ref=hdd3&s=dhs Desktop http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/desktops?c=us&cs=19&l= en&s=dhs
Can't you buy used computers or shoes in India? Used shoes here are $2, and used computers are free. Someone just gave us 30 rack-mount models that just need scsi drives added, 750MHz or faster. Their business upgraded. Can you upgrade your 400MHz cpu to 500MHZ and if so, can I mail you a cpu? I have Slot 1, Super Socket 7, or Socket PGA370 of that speed (or faster).
I think he's looking to move into the 21st century
wo! wo! heh, ah heck Sindi! and Lar Anyway: 1. Essentially I hate shopping because of the traffic so my mom and sis buy stuff for me. My old pair was a hand me down from my junior sib and it used to rub my little toe.. bad for running but okay for college and mild walking. Anyway, they bought the shoes, new ones, Adidas, for Rs:800 approximately. I thought it would be 1 or 2K! It's on their account since my mom shouldn't have thrown away my oldest pair which fit perfectly but was a bit battered. 2. computerwarehousepricelist.com is down for some reason. They host a Excel sheet with pricing and stuff in Rupees. I'm looking for a studly Core 2 Duo! With 1-2GB RAM, DVD writer, 200GB disk, TVSE UPS (800VA), maybe a dot matrix printer, built in audio/video/LAN, 17" monitor (CRT is fine) and good mobo (boxed), and possibly a wireless 3 port thingy (but I could postpone this since i use CAT5 anyways), I already have lots of dvd's. No Dell crap, too expensive, unbranded is best! *sigh* Oh the joys of living in a consumer oriented society :P Bet you could create a cluster out of that. That secondhand suggestion is not a bad idea! I recently came across a firm called connoi/www.connoiseur.com and the sysadmins here said they bought HP Dual Cores for like 10K and though the case is a bit battered.. I thought it was a bargain! If i get a bargain I'll pick it up from them :) and through the sys-admins who I've become pally with :) Lets see, I need to first collect my loot.
Someone just passed along to us (thanking us profusely) 30 rack-mount computers of 750MHz or moare, 512MB, mostly DELL, that they would have had to pay to recycle otherwise. Some IBMs and others. Do you know anyone working for a rich business that replaces its computers often?
In Ann Arbor, you don't have to pay to recycle computers anymore. Monitors yes, but not the CPU. Ann Arbor Recycling now takes them and other electronics for free.
re #110: Do you really mean a dot matrix printer?
yup, cartridges are less expensive. ditto paper, and I can use the other side to do rough work.
You can get a $7 kit (plus shipping) to reink your ribbon. lasts a lifetime.
a man after keesan's heart
heh, but not really. if he was truly a man after keesan's heart he would still be using a 286 running dos 6.22
DOS shell???? What extravagence!!!
I am coming to this discussion late, but I feel obliged to respond to cross in #76. Dan says that Grex bought its current hardware by "buying the cheapest stuff we could", but that's not my memory of it at all. STeve chose the list of hardware in the spring of 2003, and I set about buying it. The expenses are listed in the treasurers reports of April through June of 2003, which you can see in coop or at ~aruba/reports/0304.txt ... 0306.txt I wouldn't say we "spared no expense", and I know Dan had some differences of opinion with STeve on what to buy (which I didn't hear about until after we'd already bought the stuff), but it's not fair to say we chose the cheapest things we could find. All that said, that was 5 years ago, and even though our memb ership has dwindled we have more money now than then (thanks to our move to colocation). I don't thoroughly understand the technical issues, but it's my understanding that it's expensive to add the remote-access capability we need to the current machine, because most people who need that buy new machines that have it built in. So I support spending some of our money on a new machine.
(My recollection was that we did NOT buy hardware RAID or ECC memory in order to save money. Actually, the ECC thing might have been for performance, which I don't quite understand, but then, there's a lot that I don't quite understand. The RAID thing, as well as a rack-mount case, were certainly cost related.)
We have several no-longer-new rackmount DELLs (1550, 1650) with RAID and SMP capabilities - would grex want any of those? Also ECC RAM PC133 512MB.
No, I don't think that those would be particularly useful. But thanks anyway!
Would anyone else reading this like one or more? We already recycled or gave away at least half of the original total.
Ask cross about the penis extension that he got for lar.
I haven't received it yet,is it coming soon?
Yes, stand still
You have several choices: