43 new of 52 responses total.
This response has been erased.
Do you know why your doctor recommends three times as much protein as WHO? I posted lots of personal medical information and got lots of useful suggestions in return. Is it possible your doctor meant kg and said lb?
Yes, I do know. YMMV. No, it is not possible.
On my way to finding something else, I ran across this article that takes eating cheaply as a vegetarian/vegan to a whole new level. From http://www.living-foods.com/faq.html Why would someone want to eat a raw and living foods diet? There are many reasons why people eat a raw and living foods diet. 1. Health: Persons embracing this type of diet invariably experience improvements in their general physical and mental status, including more energy, better health, more energy <smile>, weight loss, detoxification, and a sturdier immune system that better resists and recovers from just about any kind of disease... and the list goes on... ***2. Energy efficiency: Since you no longer have to cook, you don't waste electricity, and save the environment.*** 3. Since you eat organic agriculture, you help to save the planet. Most become more in-tune with their body; many report definite spiritual improvements. 4. No animal products are used, so the animals appreciate it. What do raw/living foodists eat? Raw and Living Foodist eat all fruits, vegetables, sprouts, nuts, seeds, grains, sea vegetables, and other organic/natural foods that have not been processed. In some instances, there are special ways to prepare the foods (example: most raw and living foodists soak/sprout nuts, seeds and grains before consuming them). For some delicious recipes, see our recipe section!
Oh man. I once had a roommate who was a raw-foods vegan. He often had conflicts with the rest of us in the house about cooking meat in the kitchen. He swore that the 'meat fumes' were making him sick. So we all decided that the rule was going to be, 'no cooking meat when [roommate] was home' We stuck to that rule too but we started a 'meat journal' around that time where we took photographs of the cooking meat and described the cooking of the meat and the subsequent eating of the meat. When we filled the pages, we presented it to our other roommate.
Oh and another time we saved all of our bones for weeks and then put them in a shoebox which we then labeled a "Jeffrey Dahmer jigsaw puzzle". Then the one of us whose idea it was wrapped it up and gave it to the vegan roommate for Christmas.
Vegetarian Times, Jan, 2005 by Katherine Tallmadge Ask the nutritionist: about getting enough protein Q: As a fairly new vegetarian, I'm not sure I'm getting enough protein. Is there a formula to figure out how much I need, and is age ever a factor? A: Protein is the major component of all of your body's cells, and you're right, it's important to make sure you're getting enough. Recent research indicates that we may need more than previously thought. The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for all adults is 0.37 grams of protein per pound of body weight, or about 15 percent of your daily calories. But you probably need more if you exercise, if you're dieting and as you age. One dramatic study of 855 people found that those who ate just the RDA of protein had alarming bone losses compared to those who ate more than the RDA. Those who ate the least protein lost the most bone mass--4 percent in four years. People who ate the most protein (about 20 percent of calories) had the smallest losses--less than 1.5 percent in four years, reported the Journal of Bone and Mineral Research in 2000. Although the study was done on older men and women, the results may be important for all adults. "When you're young, you need protein to build bone. After age 30, you need it to keep bone from being lost," says Kathleen Tucker, associate professor of Nutritional Epidemiology at Tufts University. "Keeping bones strong is a life-long effort." Dieters, take note: New research has found that a protein-dense diet may be essential for weight loss. It helps maximize fat loss while minimizing muscle loss. That's important because "losing muscle slows your resting metabolic rate--the speed at which your body burns calories. That makes it harder to maintain a healthy weight and lose fat," says William Evans, director of the Nutrition, Metabolism, and Exercise Laboratory at the Donald W Reynolds Center on Aging at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences. Many of us don't get the RDA for protein. Roughly 25 percent of adults over age 20, and 40 percent of those age 70 and up, fall below it, according to United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) statistics, let alone eat enough to protect bones or muscle. And thin women, dieting women and elderly women--who are especially vulnerable to the ravages of bone and muscle loss--are notoriously low on protein. "Losing muscle causes older people to become weak and frail," says Evans. "It seems pretty clear that older adults may need more protein," agrees dietitian Reed Mangels, nutrition advisor to the Vegetarian Resource Group and co-author of The Dietitian's Guide to Vegetarian Diets. Based on the new findings, I now recommend that moderately active people and older adults increase their protein to about 20 percent of their calories, or 0.45-0.54 grams per pound of ideal body weight. If you're an athlete or body builder, you may need even more.
The hidden response is an abstract of an article in a peer-reviewed journal about increased protein needs in the elderly (subjects were 55 - 70 years old) published in 2001. It includes an additional list of 16 articles on that subject published since then, some of which are as recent as May and June of 2007. The term "sarcopenia" is the medical term for loss of muscle mass and strength, a problem similar to osteoporosis, loss of bone mass. About a third of muscle mass is lost in old age. This loss of mass reduces the performance of muscles. Due to the increasing number of elderly people, sarcopenia is an increasing health issue in the developed world.
According to the 2006 report of the National Academy of Sciences Food
and Nutrition Board, my doctor's recommendation is well within their
guidelines.
---------------------------
The Institute of Medicine serves as adviser to the nation to improve
health.
Established in 1970 under the charter of the National Academy of
Sciences, the Institute of Medicine provides independent, objective,
evidence-based advice to policymakers, health professionals, the private
sector, and the public.
Institute of Medicine Of the National Academies.
Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty
Acids, Cholesterol, Protein, and Amino Acids
Released On:
September 05, 2002
This report is the fifth in a series of reports from the Food and
Nutrition Board presenting dietary reference values for the intake of
nutrients by Americans and Canadians.
This new report establishes ranges for fat, carbohydrates and protein
and stresses the importance of balancing diet with exercise. Highlights
of the report include:
* Adults should get 10 to 35 percent of their calories from protein.
------------------------------
Since my doctor's recommendation is 30-33%, there doesn't seem to be a
problem.
One thing should be made clear here:
While my eating pattern deviates from the 1985 guidelines, the
deviations are based on current science and my individual situation.
Young, healthy adults fit the "normal" pattern that Sindi has
recommended so frequently, and would fare just fine on the older
guidelines.
As best I can tell, most of us here have some obvious variations away
from normal, either because of weight, age, or previous medical
conditions. It is short-sighted to continue to apply normal guidelines
in that case.
If you know that you deviate from the "reference human" upon which the
guidelines rely, it only makes sense to deviate from those guidelines
based on your own situation.
Individuals need to eat in ways that are best for them. This includes
getting advice from professionals in the nutrition field, which is not
limited to MDs.
The vegan eating pattern that Sindi proselytizes for is an extreme
subset of the more common vegetarian eating pattern. As with most
fundamentalist belief systems, believers work very hard to demonstrate
that nonbelievers are not interpreting things correctly.
The vegan can be the correct pattern for a normal person, but it may not
be the best pattern for an individual. Only that individual can make
that decision. Getting advice from professionals in addition to
apostles is wise.
Your study showed that people who ate 20% of their calories as protein had no bone loss (or minimal bone loss), so why does your doctor recommend almost twice that? You can get your protein balance measured (by testing what comes out in the urine and feces) to determine your actual needs. The RDA is supposed to be adequate for 97.5% of the population - .83 g/kg. The median requirement is .65 g/kg.
resp:20 Sindi, in my reading of Colleen's responses, she's said her Dr. was recommending about 30 or so percent, that's not twice 20%...
Sindi, Doctors, like everyone else, have opinions. Colleen's doctor evidently has a different opinion about protein intake than you do but Colleen seems pretty happy with her doctor's recommendations. My opinion is that you are both right. It probably wouldnt hurt an adult to eat the amount of protein you think is correct. But it also probably wont hurt a person to eat an amount of protein Colleen's doctor thinks is correct.
30-33% is close to double 20%. 1.5-1.7X. Colleen said she was trying for /13 which is 33.3%. A bit more internet reading reveals there is now a fad high-protein weight-loss diet which the American Heart Association warns against, partly because of the high-fat results (usually much of it saturated). Recommendations are usually to keep fat under 30% of your total calories, not 1/3. Eating more protein than you need also results in the production of nitrogenous metabolic byproducts (ketone bodies) which may be what another site (http://www.starbulltein.com/1999/10/13/features/health.html) refers to as acidic products which are neutralized with calcium, which gets excreted in the urine. The sulfur which is found more in animal than plant protein may be what they mean here (sulfuric acid?). People who eat too much protein need to also eat more calcium. Colleen's protein intake is probably not in the dangerous range, but is most likely more than required, which can be measured by tests. Since most Americans eat too much protein (in the same range) the calcium RDA probably reflects this increased need for calcium. I ran across mention of studies showing that people who ate more protein (this was about 110 g/day) had a 20% greater likelihood of breaking a wrist, due to calcium loss from bones. Colleen, have you been tested for osteoporis? Are you making sure to eat plenty of calcium along with all that protein? Will your insurance cover protein balance testing to determine if you are really eating for zero nitrogen balance? After all the fad diets that avoid sugar (saccharine etc), starch (carbs), and fat, I guess it is time for a protein fad. Are we over the oat-bran fiber fad already?
Sindi, stop it. You sound like you're badgering. If Colleen isn't sharing every single thing about her choices and what led to them, that's her call. She isn't saying, "Do what I do" - she's saying "Here's what I'm doing". There could be a million reasons why she and her doctor have said 30% protein. I also think that everyone is, well, different. I have a friend who eats a high fat, high protein, very low carb diet to help deal with her colitis. It works for her and she is very healthy (and has the blood work to prove it).
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Totally agree with Brooke. Are you listening, Sindi? Colleen is trying very hard here. I would have filtered you by now had this been my item.
If Colleen wants a monolog instead of a dialog she should not allow other people to post (or start items). I think it is important to warn people that her diet is not healthy for most people.
And as I said, she has not once said "Do as I do." The nice thing about the people that participate in this conference is that I truly believe we are all above average intelligence. I think we all know what does or does not work for us and I think we all know that if we need input, we will get thoughtful advice from the other participants. To be honest, I don't think your diet would be that healthy for me. At least not mentally. And that's ok. It works for you - it doesn't have to work for me.
Indeed, everyone's needs are very different. I dont think I would want to be quite as regimented as Colleen and I know I wouldnt want to eat a diet similar to Sindi's.
As Colleen has said many times, she and her doctor have discussed Collen's needs. Whether or not she has posted all of the health tests she's had [or not] is between her and her doctor. Just because someone here [Sindi] keeps asking for Collen's specific results, doesn't mean that Colleen needs to share or explain the test results. Collen is an intelligent woman, has sought advice from her doctor as well as other reliable sources and she is satisfied with that. And she is NOT saying that her diet is the diet for all people [though the impression is that Sindi believes that her diet is the best for almost everyone]. The topic here in this item is for eating cheaply as a vegetarian...
Brown rice & split peas with a bit of spice or sauce for flavor.
Cooked whole wheat ("berries") needs almost no seasoning.
If you're ovo-lacto, eggs are cheap great protein, and a bit of
plain yogurt can fancy up the taste of many things.
Apples are cheap almost year-round at the Farmer's Market, ditto
bananas at the grocery store. Carrots, cabbage, potatoes, and
other traditional veggies are often available cheap.
I've heard arguments both ways on nutrition in frozen veggies
(vs. fresh), but frozen veggies are pretty cheap if you don't
want the trendy ones, and understand can stock up when on sale.
If you can be bothered to make quick breads from scratch, use
whole grain flour, and get creative. Fresh quick bread does
not need to be swimming in fat, sugar, sodium, etc. to taste
good. Yeast bread's fine too, but takes more time unless you
have a machine.
Bananas, carrots, cabbage, sweet potatoes, avocadoes, oranges, and pineapples
are all very reasonably priced at the produce store inside Kerrytown - cheaper
than Kroger. This time of year mulberries are free all over the place - we
were out with an old sheet and a long pole to grab branches and shake them
over the sheet - held up at all four corners, lower in the middle. I snagged
a nice fisherman down by the river to hold two of the corners. We will
decide tomorrow whether to try to make raisins from them with a dehydrator
and/or freeze them. Juneberry season is coming to an end. The trees at
Zingerman's are gone by. Cherries and strawberries are about over locally,
black raspberries not yet ripe. Apples are free in the fall - we refrigerate
what we can, freeze (or can if no freezer), and dry extras. Pears too.
Walter, stop by some time for a shared supper - your cooking sounds
great!
Re 31: The USDA does ongoing research into the nutrient composition of foods. Their most recently released findings say that they no longer believe that there is a nutritional difference between fresh and frozen vegetables and fruits. They base their conclusion on detailed nutritional analysis, and state that faster and better methods of freezing have improved the process to the point that the foods do not have significantly different nutritional profiles.
Foods frozen right after picking often actually have more vitamins than those shipped from California and kept around for a few days. Today we froze a bunch of mustard greens within a couple hours of picking. We eat frozen vegetables and fruits all winter. Anyone want some mustard greens?
Item 245 Response 27: Jun 21 12:48 EDT 2007 "If Colleen wants a monolog instead of a dialog she should not allow other people to post (or start items). I think it is important to warn people that her diet is not healthy for most people." --------------------- It has taken me a while to figure out what bothered me about this response. I think it goes back to some community building skills I learned from a world-renown organizational development consultant who was also a personal friend. "Everyone has their own truth and everyone's truth is different." Kathy Dannemiller. I admire Sindi's ability to find and communicate food factoids that are interesting and entertaining. She does, however, remind me of a mother hen who has hatched a clutch of duck eggs, and is standing frantically on the shore trying to get her ducklings to stop swimming. Any of us is free to pick and choose among scientific and folk information in making dietary and medical decisions. Some of us choose to live by more of this information and others of us choose to live by less of this information. However you decide to put these facts together and form your own eating pattern is fine *for you*. For example, the usual goal is to meet your vitamin, mineral, and macronutrient needs by eating a range of food that will supply them without resorting to supplementary pills. Vegan diets do not supply sufficient Vitamin B12 and it must be obtained by supplements. A diet that *requires* pills or shots to meet minimum standards is not healthy for most people. However, it works for some people, and thus is a rational choice *for them*. Just remember that you have your own body giving you feedback, along with well-meaning friends, relatives, and the experts you choose to consult. I believe that everyone currently reading this conference is quite capable of making good food choices *for themselves*. Neither current nor future readers need protection from words and ideas expressed here.
Well said Colleen. I think you are absolutely right. People in the USA can get very judgemental about other people's food choices and I generally think it would be a good thing if we got away from that practice. I am not sure that there should be a morality surrounding food especially when one looks at other people's food choices. People choose what is right for them. However, I think it is fair to talk about diets in a very general way.
I'm a bad person. I look down upon people who use margerine. I'm such a judgmental bitch! Please tell me the truth shall set me free!
Well, OK...we all have our things. I look down upon people who use mayonnaise. But I just need to tell myself over and over and mayonnaise can be part of a healthy diet.
re:37--butter is so much BETTER than margarine. :-)
In my perfect world, dairy products would be fat and calorie free.
mmmm. I *love* dairy products. And I probably need to be drinking more vitamin D milk too or at least I should according to my aunt who seems to believe that vitamin D deficiencies can be related to genes and so far everyone in our family she's tested is vitamin D deficient.
Babies would not survive very long on calorie-free milk. Vitamin D is made by most people's bodies when they are exposed to sunlight. Some people don't spend much time exposed to the sun.
I dont use sunscreen so I end up getting plenty of sunlight in the summer. The winter might be different. But my aunt seems to be of the opinion that there is something about our family that makes us less able to make vitamin D from sunlight. Or maybe everyone else is just really good at putting on sunscreen. I am not especially worried about it though. I just thought it was a weird thing for her to have tested other people in my family for.
Is she a nurse or a doctor? I'm curious about how she can "test" people.
She is a doctor
On My Way To Somewhere Else: Things I never knew before
Undercooking beans can be as bad as undercooking meat. Beans have a
toxin in them (lectin) that is destroyed by cooking.
Lectins are found in most types of beans, including soybeans. Reduced
growth, diarrhea, and interference with nutrient absorption are caused
by this class of toxicants. Different lectins have different levels of
toxicity
Kidney beans are the most toxic, and there is a specific illness called
Red Kidney Bean Poisoning
(From the USDA Natural Toxins Handbook)
Nature of Disease: The onset time from consumption of raw or
undercooked kidney beans to symptoms varies from between 1 to 3 hours.
Onset is usually marked by extreme nausea, followed by vomiting, which
may be very severe. Diarrhea develops somewhat later (from one to a few
hours), and some persons report abdominal pain. Some persons have been
hospitalized, but recovery is usually rapid (3 - 4 h after onset of
symptoms) and spontaneous.
Diagnosis of Human Illness: Diagnosis is made on the basis of
symptoms, food history, and the exclusion of other rapid onset food
poisoning agents (e.g., Bacillus cereus, Staphylococcus aureus, arsenic,
mercury, lead, and cyanide).
Associated Foods: Phytohaemagglutinin, the presumed toxic agent,
is found in many species of beans, but it is in highest concentration in
red kidney beans (Phaseolus vulgaris). The unit of toxin measure is the
hemagglutinating unit (hau). Raw kidney beans contain from 20,000 to
70,000 hau, while fully cooked beans contain from 200 to 400 hau. White
kidney beans, another variety of Phaseolus vulgaris, contain about
one-third the amount of toxin as the red variety; broad beans (Vicia
faba) contain 5 to 10% the amount that red kidney beans contain.
The syndrome is usually caused by the ingestion of raw, soaked kidney
beans, either alone or in salads or casseroles. As few as four or five
raw beans can trigger symptoms.
Several outbreaks have been associated with "slow cookers" or crock
pots, or in casseroles which had not reached a high enough internal
temperature to destroy the glycoprotein lectin.
It has been shown that heating to 80 C may potentiate the toxicity
five-fold, so that these beans are more toxic than if eaten raw. [That's
about 176 F]
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I've sampled soaking/soaked
kidney beans frequently without ill effect. I'd never even heard of
this, even among my vegetarian/vegan friends. Has anyone else been
warned about red kidney beans, or any other beans, for that matter?
I threw up once after eating semicooked lima beans. I notice that bean plants from darker seeds are much less bug eaten, so maybe the same toxins are found in the leaves. Yellow-eyed peas and white dutch runner beans were eaten nearly to the ground. Cranberry beans and chocolate runner beans were almost ignored.
I have never heard that raw or undercooked beans could be harmful. I did learn recently that a huge number of the beans sold in Mexico are grown right here in Michigan. That means that if you go to the Mexican grocery and buy a can of beans imported from Mexico, there is a good chance that they were originally canned here.
I'm lazy. I never soak beans. I just used canned beans.
SaveALot had about 20 different canned bean products, so let's look at this picture: Mexican workers migrate north to work in Michigan's bean fields during the summer. The beans are dried and canned. They are shipped to Mexico to be sold and then the familiar Mexican brands are shipped north to feed Mexican migrants. I find it intriguing that poor families buy more canned beans than dried beans. At least, SaveALot dedicates much more precious shelf space to canned bean products than they do to dried beans, which means that there is higher demand for them. In fact, I was amazed that an extreme-value grocery had that many options. Their profit model includes limiting choices (for example, only 1 kind of flour, from one supplier, in one size). I can see that time=money is an equation that factors in to the decision process. If you earn more per hour working than you save per hour cooking, it is a *very* rational decision. The money saved by cooking beans is far less than minimum wage, or overtime during the growing season. (Notice that I'm assuming these folks are making at least minimum wage). And, given the quest for People Chow, I suspect these buyers come home at least as exhausted from a day of work as folks in air-conditioned offices.
Yeah, or more exhausted!
I've read about the kidney bean thing; i think i had a mild case of it once (after soaking/cooking red ones at too low a temp). My impression is that a fair number of plants have chemical defenses against being eaten, so best to know what you're doing before consuming them in large quantities or prepared in unusual ways.
You have several choices: