18 new of 41 responses total.
I think that it is very common for fat people to internalize messages that our culture gives about fat people. They learn that fat people dont look good or that fat people cant possibly be healthy, and so on. Once a person honestly starts to believe those things, OF COURSE they feel bad when they are fat and feel good when they are thin. That so few fat people ever become thin people even with that kind of belief system says a lot to me.
Do you think it's possible that people have different tolerances for discomfort? Imagine youself at twice your weight, trying to get out of a low sofa? Or trying to climb a couple of flights of stairs? Would you be willing to tolerate that level of incapacitation? You've found a weight that works well enough for you. That's probably true of most people, no matter what the scale says. Maybe, just maybe, the reason lots of people maintain at 180 pounds thought they'd like to weigh less is because they aren't so much bothered by their physical limitations. Or their low self-image. Or whatever. What works for you to be content enough at your weight is exactly what works for a moderately obese person at their weight.
Nice analysis, Mary.
resp:25 I guess that is possible. However, I think there are a LOT of people who arent comfortable with their weight and who suffer quite a lot from it and who simply cannot maintain any significant weight loss. So while I suppose there are people out there who just are happy with their weight and the level of discomfort it causes, I dont think that in our present culture of discrimination and fat hatred that there are many fat people who would be comfortable with *that. But I imagine that there are plenty of people who are comfortable with the way their bodies feel to them even at very large sizes. It seems to me that things like that are likely to vary among individuals. As for me personally, it isnt so much about tolerating a level of incapacitation so much as avoiding things that make me feel miserable. There are many many things about my weight that I dont like. I imagine that anyone at any sort of size extreme might feel some of the same things. The world simply isnt built for people of my size or for very tall people or very short people. I cant even begin to tell you of the physical discomfort I feel on a regular basis because of my size. Chairs often dont fit me and are thus extremely uncomfortable, especially those little half desks they have at EMU. So yes, I am talking about physical pain, sometimes pretty bad pain too, caused because I am too fat to fit in the chair correctly. And trust me, that is just one of about a hundred things I dont like about being fat. Efforts to lose weight have always made me feel worse. And while sustained weight loss is not the typical result of any commercial diet, symptoms of starvation neurosis apparently are very common (at least according to one of the few controlled experiments on weight loss - The Minnesota Starvation Study) These symptoms are: * Cognitive processes center on food. Thoughts of food intrude constantly; the major part of the waking hours are spent in contemplating it. * Behavior includes toying with food and hoarding it, especially during re-nourishment. * Coherent, creative thinking is impaired. * Mental function is characterized by apathy, dullness, exhaustion, and depression. * Interest in sex wanes. Basically I suspect that weight is a very individual matter as is health. There are people who can eat all they want and stay thin. There are people who gain weight if they wanted to but choose not to. There are people who couldnt gain weight if they wanted to. There are people who put on weight and then are able to lose it by maintaining a state of semi-starvation for the rest of their lives. There are people who put on weight who suffer a lot if they try to lose weight. Everyone is different. And that is why you cannot look at a person's body and know very much about them at all. You cant know if that 300 lb person gets lots of exercise and eats a great diet. You cant know if that 180 lb person has more will power than some 300 lb person. You cant look at a very thin person and know if they are thin because they restrict their calories or if they are just naturally thin. You cant know if they are smart, or motivated, or lazy motherfuckers shoveling in the pizzas while sitting on the couch in their underpants. You really can not tell that by looking at a person's body.
I don't think that its as simple as people tolerating [or accepting] whatever size they are in spite of the discomforts, physical, and/or emotional limitations of being that size. Of course, there are many things or situations a person may have a range of tolerance for, but to NOT wanting to change or tolerate one thing [being overweight] when [because?] its 'acceptable' to that person [being overweight] MORE than other discomforts or situations [that it may or may not contribute to] doesn't make sense to me. It's not like many people can actually CHOOSE to lose and maintain the said weight loss or choosing not to try any to lose [or gain in the case of underweight people]the weightloss. But they/we have to tolerate the other things in SPITE of the size of the person. In another way, its not that because: 'A' [behavior] is one specific thing [a certain size] THEN you are accepting of 'B' [other 'negative' outcomes]. In most people's reality, its B in spite of A. Am I making any sense?
In rereading the responses, I do agree with what Lynne has to say in resp:27, she said it well [as in other responses, too]. More comments and such later, when I have a bit more time...
Gina Kolata, a science writer for the NYT, has recently written a book that examines some of the science of obesity. Her book is called _Rethinking Thin_. The link below is to an interview with her on NPR's Talk of the Nation. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11606653
I listened to the podcast and found it interesting. Thanks for the link. If you accept her analysis I guess what you're left with is whether to give up and assume you're statistical fate or see if you can indeed be one of the (rare) folks who can lose weight and keep it off, long term. If you despise eating fewer calories than what you burn then I can see how you might be better off not trying to lose weight. But for a whole lot of people it's more uncomfortable giving up than not. Good thing for those who finally find some success with weight control.
Sure. It is a good thing for some people who find some success with weight control. Anyone who can lose weight and keep it off without suffering from any symptoms of starvation is certainly doing what works best for them and that is great. It is great when people win the lotto too but buying a losing ticket doesnt mean that a person is a failure either even if the success rate for losing weight is much higher than the success rate for winning the lotto. Seriously, I have no objections to choices people make about their own bodies. I am very pro-choice in every sense of the word that people get to make decisions about their own bodies even if I personally think that they are making unhealthy decisions. Mostly I think that people tend to know their own bodies. But I also think that a lot of the discrimination against fat people is rooted in a deeply held cultural belief that fat people can easily diet and lose weight and that the failure to lose weight is due to fat people having less will power or being more lazy than everyone else. If something has a 95% failure rate, that says something! I suspect too that a lot of people are uncomfortable with their weight, not because of how it makes their bodies feel but because of the way that fat people are treated in our culture. Fat people are discriminated against in many many different ways. Fat people are constantly given messages, even from medical professionals who should know better, that they just need to lose some weight and that they could lose weight if only they werent lazy people with no self discipline. People constantly get confused and see obesity as a behavior when it is not a behavior and probably doesnt even reflect different behavior than that of thinner people. And, of course, I also think that the actual health risks of obesity are hugely exaggerated. I think that getting rid of our negative cultural ideas about fat and fat people can help people make better decisions about if they want to try to lose weight or not.
the things that *is* hard about weight loss for me is I'm not sure I'll ever feel I've totally won the battle and sit back and relax. It'll be a constant thing for me to monitor and I just hope I can stay motivated. But I am ok with that. I'd rather have to constantly monitor it than to gain weight back. I've done that before, and I don't like it. So this is what works for me.
I've been thinking some of why my anecdotal evidence of friends being able to lose weight and maintain their loss is somewhat at odds with your statistics. I mean, I sure have more friends who have effectively maintained weight loss than friends who have hit the lottery jackpot. Some of it may be that they had serial-dieted without success. But along they way they'd learned some of what didn't work. So they stopped dieting and instead shifted to adapting long term weight loss behaviors - habits for a lifetime. If a researcher collected a group of dieters - they wouldn't be counted. They're not attending Weight Watchers or counting carbs or stocking their freezer with Jennie Craig. They've learned from "diets" and moved on, finding a degree of success. I'm not sure research is capturing their weight loss success. But I agree with you that obese people face discrimination and that for some, many even, significant change is not under their control for lots of reasons.
(Jeanne slipped.)
I completely agree with the discrimination, and it's sad. The think that irritates me about it is that there are people who make lots of bad choices in their lives (like drinking, smoking, drugs, etc.) that don't effect they way they look, yet some day their actions will result in some sort of consequence most likely. So they bitch about fat people when it is only because of the way they look and it is hypocritical. I worked with this guy and he hated me because I was fat. I was so appalled by him, but I was always really nice to him. I finally asked a coworker why he was so mean to me, and he told me. I was just flabbergasted. It's very sad.
resp:34 It may be the case that people like your friends who arent on official diets are not reflected in any studies. Certainly they or people like them wouldnt be included in studies of specific diets. But it could also be the case that they have been included and that it is a coincidence that you happen to know people who have lost weight and kept it off for years. Or maybe not so much of a coincidence...I can recall reading of one study that showed that socio-economic class was a factor in sustained weight loss with people in the higher socio-economic classes more likely to lose weight and keep it off. There are also studies that show a correlation between income and weight. There certainly is a connection in the public psyche. I imagine that you probably know more people in the higher socio-economic classes than in the lower ones. There might have been studies though that show that making permanent lifestyle changes yields more success than going on a diet with the idea that the diet is temporary or at least I remember reading that and somehow got that idea in my head. It was one of the main reasons I stopped going on diets. I would think to myself,"is this something you want to do for the rest of your life?" and for me the answer is pretty much always "no," But obviously for your friends, the answer was different. Which kind of leads into furs's comment in resp:33. Most likely, furs, you will need to monitor your weight for most of the rest of your life. If doing that is ok with you, and it sounds like it is, then clearly you have made the right choice. The hypocritical health concern made by people with plenty of unhealthy habits always bugs me too. The employment discrimination does as well. Also the discrimination in health care. And all of the thousand messages everyone in our culture is bombarded with every day that being fat is not ok and that fat people are bad people.
Just in case anyone was in doubt about the nature of fat hatred in our country, consider the following essay. Apparently fat people are responsible for pretty much everything that is wrong in our country. Or rather "The fat on our bodies is simply the external manifestation of the fat that infects the national spirit the corruption of our most sacred institutions, the incompetence of our public servants, the erosion of our civil liberties and the apathy that weighs us all down like a double Whopper with cheese." http://www.newsreview.com/sacramento/Content?oid=344915
From today's Dean Ornish column in Newsweek http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19617152/site/newsweek "A new study published this week in the prestigious journal Nature Medicine looked at the effects of stress on weight gain in mice. Investigators reported that chronic emotional stress turns on a peptide (chemical messenger) called neuropeptide Y, which is found in body fat. This hormone increases appetite, especially for carbohydrate-rich foods. It also causes your body to convert these calories into belly fat, a double whammy. What's especially interesting is that chronic stress alone didn't have much effect on weight gain in only two weeks, nor did a high-fat, high-sugar diet. However, combining both together was especially toxic and markedly increased abdominal fat deposits in only two weeks. When the researchers blocked the effects of neuropeptide Y, it reduced stress-induced visceral (belly) fat by 50 percent "without any discernible effect on food intake, which remained as increased as it was" according to the investigators. In other words, they ate the same amount of food, didn't exercise more, yet their belly fat decreased by half when the effects of neuropeptide Y were blocked. This is amazing stuff." ---------------- First time I've seen research that begins to explain why some people might not be able to lose weight even by eating fewer calories.
Yeah, that stress research has been ongoing. It is nice to see that it continues. I have heard it as a possible explanation for some of the differences in weight among people of different socio-economic classes. There is also some research that suggests that belly fat increases certain hormones that in turn cause a person's body to become resistant to insulin (aka type 2 diabetes). So if a drug could be developed that prevented the belly fat, it might also be something useful in treating diabetes. There really has been a lot of research in this subject because, let's face it, there is a huge economic insentive here. Can you imagine how rich a drug company would be if they actually could develop a drug that caused people to lose weight without the terrible side effects of current and past weight loss drugs?
[Lots of interesting stuff posted here since I was here last... I'll have to come back and check out some of the links and such sometime soon when I have more time to read and think about it, then post comments.]
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