Grex Classicalmusic Conference

Item 65: Equipment for playing music

Entered by keesan on Sun Mar 17 00:26:06 2002:

51 new of 65 responses total.


#15 of 65 by jaklumen on Wed Mar 20 03:09:53 2002:

resp:8  I typed in impedance, but wasn't sure if that was right.  Ok, 
I learned something new now.  Ok, Rane, if a system calls for 8ohm-
16ohm, will there be a match only with 8 or 16?  Or can you have a 
match with impedance in between, as I did?

Ok, Ken-- on the subject of Dolby, where does HX Pro fit in?

and just on a separate note, do noise reduction systems exist for 
TV/VCRs any more that are *separate* units?  I've noticed the really 
huge TVs with surround sound systems often have dbx noise reduction.  
I also remember Radio Shack carrying a separate audio decoder (I 
think) that allowed for stereo hookup and noise reduction, but I 
haven't seen it in years.


#16 of 65 by krj on Wed Mar 20 17:58:04 2002:

Hoo boy.  I can't explain Dolby HX Pro without covering "bias."
And I'm not even sure I can explain that very well; I may go out
and look for a URL to point you to.
 
In brief:  Dolby HX Pro is not a noise reduction system at all.
"HX" stands for Headroom Extension; it is a circuit to reduce
the bias current a bit when there is lots of high frequency
energy present in the musical signal, to try and stop too much total
high-frequency signal from going into the record heads.  Dolby HX Pro 
is only applied in the recording process; no decoding playback 
is required.

My last high-quality cassette deck had HX Pro, but I eventually 
concluded it didn't help the sound and I turned it off.


#17 of 65 by jaklumen on Wed Mar 20 23:27:44 2002:

All right then, if HX Pro is only applied in the recording process, 
why would a deck need that system?

I think I'm somewhat familiar with bias-- many cassette types apply 
most of the bias in the midrange.  It seems to emphasize more of 
that 'warm' sound the cassette medium is known for (as opposed to LPs, 
which generally tend to be 'bright'.)  But I know that's grossly 
oversimplifying things.


#18 of 65 by krj on Thu Mar 21 17:25:07 2002:

The marketing for HX Pro argued that when too much high-energy signal
went into the record heads or tape that there was some "self-erasing"
going on, resulting in less-than-optimal high frequency performance.
So that's why it was called "HX Pro," for Headroom Extension.
Once the system accomplished its goal of getting a hotter high-frequency
signal onto the tape, there is no need for any special processing 
to play it back.
 
You know, the more I write this stuff, the more I remember why
I'm recording stuff digitally these days...


#19 of 65 by jaklumen on Fri Mar 22 02:37:30 2002:

well, that's not a bad thing, actually.  Me, I just got a better 
cassette deck because I was patching a little compact stereo to a 
receiver for the deck.

Having Dolby playback is nice.  And yes, HX Pro sounds fine on just 
about any good deck.


#20 of 65 by tpryan on Fri Mar 22 23:11:10 2002:

        I still have an outboard Dolby box.  Control knobs on it 
to control things.  Came with a reel to reel tape and as cassette
tape for calibrations.


#21 of 65 by keesan on Sat Mar 23 03:43:46 2002:

Tim is there any stereo gadget that you don't have and would like to get?


#22 of 65 by tpryan on Sat Mar 23 23:49:55 2002:

        I haven't had an eight track recorder for some time.


#23 of 65 by keesan on Sun Mar 24 04:03:08 2002:

Does that mean you want to own one again?  I know where to get one, cheap.


#24 of 65 by davel on Sun Mar 24 12:37:16 2002:

Heh.  Watch out, Tim.


#25 of 65 by tpryan on Sun Mar 24 13:32:18 2002:

        I think even radio shack has stopped selling blank 8-track tapes.


#26 of 65 by keesan on Sun Mar 24 15:52:37 2002:

I know where you can get cheap used ones.


#27 of 65 by davel on Mon Mar 25 01:55:43 2002:

What did I say?      8-{)]


#28 of 65 by mcnally on Wed Mar 27 10:09:09 2002:

  Since this is the "Equipment for Playing [Recorded] Music" item,
  I thought I might mention my recent purchase of an Apple iPod.

  I'll write a longer review of it later, but basically the iPod
  is an amazing device with a couple of annoying omissions and
  restrictions that keep it from being perfect.  Still, I'm quite
  happy with it, and can recommend it with only minor reservations.


#29 of 65 by keesan on Wed Mar 27 16:18:52 2002:

We have discovered that the only tape decks with timer switches (you set them
to off, record, or play) are the ones were you cannot press down the regular
play or record switch and have it stay down.  The newer ones are solenoids
(feather-touch) and the timer switch is not needed on the older ones - you
can just push down the pertinent lever, plug the deck into a timer, turn on
power, and when the timer reaches the right time the deck should go on.
This is theory, anyway.

We have one (broken) deck with HXPro which is automatically used, and then
also a choice of Dolby B or C or neither.  It is autoreverse and plays okay
in one direction but superfast in the other.  Pinch roller not pinching.

Jim is fixing small headphones this week.  They come in 20,24, and 32 ohms
and you have to turn the boombox way up to hear them.  Is this to prevent
people from making themselves deaf?  Ordinary speakers are 4-16 ohms.
The larger the headphones, the less you have to turn up the boombox.


#30 of 65 by krj on Mon Oct 14 03:09:09 2002:

I can't find the previous discussion of MP3 portable players, so I'll
use this item.  I broke down today and got a RioVolt CD/MP3 player.
It was stickered at $99.99, scanned for $10 less than that; the sales
clerk waved a 10% coupon under the scanner and the price went down some
more, and *then* there is a $20 rebate which I darn well better send 
in this time.   So, what, $60-$65 final cost?  Yay Best Buy.  Thanks 
to mcnally for encouraging me to keep looking.
 
There were a frustrating ten minutes of trying to figure out the 
folder navigation, and then it all made sense.  
 
Sounds great on these Spanish folk MP3s by a band called Na Lua 
which I've been playing; certainly those files sound better on the 
the Rio than they do on Winamp on the computers I've got around.


#31 of 65 by jep on Mon Oct 14 03:28:49 2002:

I've been thinking about getting one of those for my son.  I figured we 
can take it in the car, too.  With a couple of MP3 CDs, we'll have 
enough music for a weekend trip to my brother's place south of 
Nashville.

I saw one in one of the Sunday circulars for $40, with car kit.  I hope 
that means a cigarette lighter plug-in and not a cassette tape adapter, 
since I don't have a cassette player in my car.


#32 of 65 by krj on Mon Oct 14 06:18:31 2002:

"car kit" generally means a cigarette lighter plug-in for power, and 
a cassette tape adapter to carry the audio from the portable unit
into the car stereo.  Most people's cigarette lighters are not connected
to the car stereo for output, but you might have a special model.  :)

As John doesn't have a cassette tape player, he'll most likely
have to get a small radio transmitter which can be picked up by 
your car's FM radio; I have no experience with those.

We were discussing these toys in another item somewhere recently, 
but where?


#33 of 65 by rcurl on Mon Oct 14 06:27:40 2002:

I have used such a tape/CD FM transmitter. They  work quite well. Their
only problem is that if you enter an area where there is a regular
FM transmitter, you need to pick another frequency. This doesn't happen
often.


#34 of 65 by mcnally on Mon Oct 14 10:15:02 2002:

  I've got one of the FM-transmitter doodads that I use with my iPod on
  car trips.  It seemed to work pretty well on my trip from Washington
  down to Utah and around the national parks of the southwest but it was
  a complete failure on a later road-trip from western Michigan to 
  southeastern Minnesota via Chicago.  From about Benton Harbor, MI,
  to Madison, WI, the device wasn't worth using -- about every 20 minutes
  I had to retune to an unused frequency as I came within range of some
  new low-power FM station.


#35 of 65 by mcnally on Mon Oct 14 10:17:38 2002:

  re #30:  For that price I'm presuming you didn't get the black model with
  the larger display, extra buffer memory, and FM tuner.  That's the only
  Rio/Volt model I'm familiar with, but I liked it.  The lower cost models,
  though much more attractively priced, seemed decidedly not as nice.


#36 of 65 by md on Mon Oct 14 11:15:43 2002:

When is somebody going to invent the stylusless cartridge for playing 
vinyl?  Maybe not a cartridge, exactly, but some sort of optical device 
for reading the grooves on an analog vinyl recording.  Or has it 
already been done?  The idea of having to run a diamond-tipped needle 
through the grooves every time you want to listen to an old favorite 
seems more and more primitive and destructive of the medium, given 
current technology.  How hard could it be to come up with a simple 
inexpensive device?  


#37 of 65 by davel on Mon Oct 14 12:41:29 2002:

I've wondered about this, too.  But it will take more than just a cartridge,
as the needle controls the inward spiral motion of the cartridge as well as
vibrating.  You'd need something to make the tone arm pivot at the proper rate
to keep the cartridge pointed at the right point on the groove.

I also have to wonder whether something couldn't be designed with a *wide*
cartridge that would read the entire side in one revolution.  Might be
simpler.


#38 of 65 by krj on Mon Oct 14 14:01:53 2002:

My recollection is that the laser turntable *was* done; however, it was 
in the late 1980s, when the market for $10,000 turntables was shrinking
fast.  I will grub around later today; I saw something on the web
about it.
 
Mike in resp:35 :: My RioVolt model is the SP-90, blue case, seems to have
the larger display but no FM tuner, and I'm not sure about the buffer
size.


#39 of 65 by jep on Mon Oct 14 14:45:16 2002:

re #32: Urp.  Thanks for pointing that out, as I'd completely 
overlooked it.


#40 of 65 by keesan on Mon Oct 14 16:04:36 2002:

John, we probably have a car tape deck and if not, Kiwanis has lots of used
ones cheap, probably a lot cheaper than buying a new gadget for transmitting
FM to your car radio.  THe last time he fixed someone's tape deck it was so
they could play CD's with it.


#41 of 65 by jep on Mon Oct 14 17:49:16 2002:

Why didn't I think of that?  I'd have to ask for help installing it, 
too.  I'm no good at cars.  Thanks, Sindi!


#42 of 65 by other on Mon Oct 14 23:15:41 2002:

I used to have a cheap tape deck boombox in a car with only an am/fm 
stereo.  I hardwired the battery terminals of the (9v) boombox to the 
ignition of the (12v) car, and the difference didn't seem to have any 
effect, but I saved a lot on batteries and I could play cassettes in my 
car...

(until some jerk in Jersey City broke in and stole the boombox)


#43 of 65 by jep on Tue Oct 15 14:57:57 2002:

I could use my boombox and a cigarette lighter adapter, I suppose.  
What I really want, though, is to be able to play MP3 CDs in the car.  
It'd be a compact way to take a lot of music when we're traveling.


#44 of 65 by krj on Tue Oct 15 18:25:42 2002:

Meijers had a MP3/CD playing boombox from Philips.


#45 of 65 by jep on Tue Oct 15 19:58:24 2002:

A boombox?  Do you know how much it was?


#46 of 65 by krj on Wed Oct 16 03:24:27 2002:

About $100, I think.


#47 of 65 by tpryan on Sat Oct 19 21:15:13 2002:

        The Philips MP3/Cd boombox also allows firmware upgrades,
which I think could mean support of .ogg files later.  
        I have the silver/little blue RioVolt Player, SP-100, IIRC.
I downloaded one firmware update for it, and got better functionality,
like being able to resume where I left off, on up to ten disks it
remembers for me, either in MP3 or CD modes.  It and the mostly black
one with FM tuner are the only ones with upgradeable firmware.
        The next part of desirabilty is being able to forward thru
an MP3 selection/file.  Currently it only supports the Gong! function,
going to the next file.
        Sony also makes/made an MP3/CD boombox.


#48 of 65 by orinoco on Tue Oct 22 17:38:13 2002:

(I guess it was only a matter of time before "boombox" and "firmware upgrade"
wound up in the same sentence, but jeez...)


#49 of 65 by krj on Mon Jan 6 02:33:27 2003:

resp:30 and subsequent::  I've decided that I'm not all that happy with 
the RioVolt unit I got two months ago.  The sound is fairly "dead" coming 
out of it, compared with all the recent Sony CD portables I've 
used, and also with Leslie's Koss portable.   This seems to be 
something in the audio output stage, because it doesn't matter if 
I'm playing audio CDs or MP3 discs.
 
Has anyone been able to compare the sound quality of the different
CD MP3 players?  They aren't usually sold in ways which allow you to 
audition them any more.


#50 of 65 by scott on Mon Jan 6 05:58:16 2003:

Dunno, but I can loan you a test CD with various tones at various frequencies.
It's the reason I didn't buy a Sony this time around.


#51 of 65 by tpryan on Fri Jan 10 23:27:51 2003:

        I got the PSX100 RioVoit portable.  The mostly silver with blue accents
one that plays CDs and MP3.  If this is your model, maybe we can do a 
side by side comparision to see if it is the unit or the model or maker.


#52 of 65 by charcat on Mon Feb 3 09:36:13 2003:

I recently bought a sony cd-mp3 walkman with g-protection and car kit 
for around $100 and have been quite happy with it. No skips at all. It 
is my 5th cd player and all the other skipped on gravel roads (first mp3 
player). I just leave it on random play, better than radio and no 
commercials.


#53 of 65 by dbratman on Tue Feb 4 17:53:59 2003:

My CD player with car kit has a skip-protection feature you can turn on 
or off.  When on, it loads ten seconds ahead into memory.  When using 
the player with batteries, as in sitting and listening when not in a 
car, one can turn the feature off: you don't really need it, and it 
eats up the batteries after 2 hours instead of 8.


#54 of 65 by mcnally on Wed Feb 5 01:39:27 2003:

  Wow.  I'm trying to figure out what about that feature could possibly
  cause that much increased battery drain..

  On newer hard-drive based music players like my iPod the memory buffer
  is actually a battery savings feature.  Of course it's a lit bigger --
  32MB in the iPod's case, which is usually sufficient to allow it to 
  fill up the buffer and then put the hard drive to sleep for twenty
  minutes or so.


#55 of 65 by dbratman on Sun Feb 9 13:37:49 2003:

Keeping an extra 10 seconds continuously loaded in memory, I suppose.


#56 of 65 by mcnally on Sun Feb 9 15:02:25 2003:

  I don't see how 2 hours' worth of memory refresh could consume as much
  battery power as running the motor, laser, and op-amp for another 6 hours.
  That's what puzzles me..


#57 of 65 by dbratman on Wed Feb 12 12:25:59 2003:

I have no idea what activities consume how much power, so I am not 
bothered by this.  I have battery-operated devices that seem to run 
forever, and others that run out of juice constantly.  I have a little 
voice tape recorder that runs faithfully on 2 AA batteries, and I have 
flashlights that seem to die regularly on 3 or 4 D cells.  I'd have 
thought that keeping the tape running and recording my voice for hours, 
together with rewinding, playback, etc., would take as much juice as 
shining a tiny weak light occasionally, but apparently not.


#58 of 65 by ball on Wed Sep 6 04:45:48 2006:

Today I found myself window shopping for an MP3 player.  I say "window
shopping" because it's a luxury item that I shouldn't buy at present
even though they're certainly more affordable than they used to be.

In the past I've thought about Proporta's MP3 player because I could
load up one or more multimedia cards (MMC) with MP3 files and it
should just play them...

    http://www.proporta.com/F02/PPF02P05.php?t_id=1187&t_mode=des

  ...judging by the description it may even work directly with NetBSD.

Today though I've been looking at Sandisk's m2x0 series.  The m250 (2
Gbytes) and m260 (4 Gbytes) both cost around 5 cents per megabyte,
which is about the same as blank MMC cards would cost me for the Pro-
porta.  In effect I would be buying USB flash storage and getting a
free MP3 player with a backlit display.


#59 of 65 by twenex on Wed Sep 6 13:15:32 2006:

Stay away from Sandisk; they lock up, apparently, and when they do the company
is about as much use as chocolate fireguard.

Way to resurrect an old item, though ;-)


#60 of 65 by nharmon on Wed Sep 6 15:49:48 2006:

What is chocolate fireguard?


#61 of 65 by twenex on Wed Sep 6 17:29:08 2006:

Theoretically, a barrier put in front of a fireplace to protect
children and animals (especially) from a fire, but made of chocolate.
Therefore, in practice a metaphor for "a completely useless object
made to sound useful."


#62 of 65 by naftee on Wed Sep 6 20:23:42 2006:

chocolate face


#63 of 65 by ball on Wed Sep 6 22:14:48 2006:

Re #59: pants.  I really quite fancied one of those.


#64 of 65 by twenex on Wed Sep 6 22:33:14 2006:

Sorry! But figure a moment's irritation is better than a stung wallet
;-)


#65 of 65 by ball on Thu Sep 7 00:18:59 2006:

Point.


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