Grex Cflirt Conference

Item 18: SEX and OWNERSHIP

Entered by oval on Mon Dec 31 01:59:22 2001:

42 new of 73 responses total.


#32 of 73 by phenix on Fri Jan 4 16:21:43 2002:

cock teases otherwise known as "scary bitches", "fifteen year old girls" and
"dancers and actresses"
oh, "vamps", "courtisans" etc.
the idea is to seduce someone, and then give da old "what? with you? hah.
that's a laugh"


#33 of 73 by brighn on Fri Jan 4 17:22:52 2002:

Greg put it more succinctly than I did. =}


#34 of 73 by phenix on Fri Jan 4 17:46:17 2002:

<bow>
i have names if you need examples.
i went to a school filled with these people.
such bets as "who can get the most money out of a guy before doing anything"
"who looses thier virginity last but has the most boys trailing them"
yha


#35 of 73 by brighn on Fri Jan 4 18:32:19 2002:

I've seen 'em on Jenny Jones, too. Girls who play guys for all sorts of
expensive gifts, and then don't put it.*

*That's not to say that the only reason for giving a woman a gift is so that
she'll give you sex. Not harldy. But when a guy gives you a Mercedes because
you bounce on his lap and squeeze his crotch, I think the implication is
pretty strong WHY he gave you the Mercedes, and if you don't want to put out,
give the Mercedes back.


#36 of 73 by oval on Fri Jan 4 21:48:53 2002:

I didn't mean for #30 to be taken very nasty. just as you didnt think your
behavior in party should be taken nasty i guess. your posts are fairly well
written and you seem mature and witty in bbs. so i was taken aback by how you
behaved. in any case, i agree it's quite rude to act sexually interested in
someone and then make them feel dumb for reciprocating the interest. do you
think there are people that encourage this behavior? seems there are a lot
of people, who, once they *know* they can sleep with someone whenever they
want, they are no longer interested. (this is the part where things go back
to the original header "sex and ownership".)


#37 of 73 by oval on Fri Jan 4 21:52:42 2002:

And i refuse to acknowledge the guests of jenny jones (or anyone suitable to
*be* a guest on that show) as people to use as an example of anything besides
stupidity.


#38 of 73 by phenix on Fri Jan 4 21:56:53 2002:

ok, i went to school with these people


#39 of 73 by oval on Fri Jan 4 21:59:04 2002:

High School?


#40 of 73 by brighn on Fri Jan 4 22:00:34 2002:

#36> I'll admit that, depending on my mood, I can come off as a blazing jerk
in party. Depending on who's there (and this doesn't apply to the case in
question), it can even be deliberate (there was a time years ago when Greg
and I didn't exactly get along like troopers in Party, f'rinstance).
 
Sure, people of both genders use sex as a tool for power. When men do so, it's
an acquisition technique: How many fawning women can I get? When women do so,
it's a seduction technique: How much can I get from each man? (Those are gross
generalizations, too.)


#41 of 73 by oval on Fri Jan 4 22:00:47 2002:

some of the jerks i went to school with were suitable guests for jenny jones.


#42 of 73 by phenix on Fri Jan 4 22:07:55 2002:

yha, high school. my collage carrier, so far as it exists to this point,
has not exactly been a social extraviganza


#43 of 73 by oval on Fri Jan 4 22:26:39 2002:

yes there are jenny jones candidates in college too. in fact, they're
everywhere. they seem to have terrible tempers. i can hear them outside
screaming at each other when i'm trying to sleep. i think i do a pretty good
job at avoiding them, but some of them are just goddamn loud.


#44 of 73 by flem on Fri Jan 4 22:45:03 2002:

There's more than one kind of cock-tease.  There are the malicious ones, who
get a power rush out of deliberately manipulating men, and there are the ones
who flirt for attention and just don't know how to tell when they're
crossing the line.  Innocent, but obnoxious.  


#45 of 73 by oval on Sat Jan 5 00:01:57 2002:

i never considered a man a c*** tease. i have lots of male friends who are
very affectionate with me. we kiss and hug and flirt, but there's no issue
of sex. if i proposition a man who's touchy and flirty and he's not intersted,
does that make him a c*** tease?


#46 of 73 by phenix on Sat Jan 5 00:04:32 2002:

only if he's created the unrealistic expectation of nookie


#47 of 73 by oval on Sat Jan 5 00:07:14 2002:

that answer doesn't satisfy me


#48 of 73 by orinoco on Sat Jan 5 00:38:35 2002:

Then how 'bout "only if he used that expectation to manipulate you."?  If
someone is flirty and physical with me, I make a proposition, and I get turned
down, then there's not necessarily any harm done.  But if that proposition
is used to guilt-trip or blackmail me, or if the promise of getting laid is
being held out like a carrot to get favors out of me, then I start to get
pissed.


#49 of 73 by oval on Sat Jan 5 00:44:56 2002:

then he's just a manipulative c***.


#50 of 73 by lelande on Sat Jan 5 22:03:33 2002:

if you proposition a man who's touchy and flirty and he's not interested then
he's either scared or wants you to TAKE him, by hook or by crook.


#51 of 73 by brighn on Sun Jan 6 04:37:58 2002:

Once again, there's a difference between touchy and flirty, and creating an
expectation of sexual readiness. Also, if I'm fliting with someone and I'm
not serious, and they proposition me as if I'd been serious, I'll tell them
that I could see where there had been a misunderstanding, but I'm really not
interested in anything beyond flirting, sorry. I don't laugh and say, "Sex?
With you? You must be crazy. Where'd you get that silly idea?"
 
And then I re-examine my own flirtation to see if the confusion was justified
by my actions, or if the person just misread signals.


#52 of 73 by oval on Sun Jan 6 06:10:40 2002:

okay so then whats exactly the difference between touchy and flirting and
creating an expectation of sexual readiness?


#53 of 73 by cyklone on Sun Jan 6 06:22:48 2002:

As Paul mentioned, it sometimes depends on the perceptions of the person
trying to make that determination. OTOH, the more legitimate question
would be "how would a *reasonable* person define the distinction between
'touchy and flirty' and 'creating an expectation of sexual readiness'?" 



#54 of 73 by oval on Sun Jan 6 06:48:24 2002:

well i'm hoping a *reasonable* person is willing to provide an answer.


#55 of 73 by cyklone on Sun Jan 6 14:06:15 2002:

I'm not sure a reasonable person would post on grex 

;)


#56 of 73 by brighn on Sun Jan 6 18:33:17 2002:

In party I gave one example. I had invited a friend from Maine for a weekend,
and it was clear that that weekend would involve sex. A mutual friend from
Saginaw also wanted to visit. Both me and the woman from Maine asked the third
person repeatedly if she was interested in a threesome. Her words, repeatedly,
were, "We'll see" and "Maybe." We told her repeatedly that it was cool if she
didn't want to have sex, no problem, just tell us so we didn't get our
expectations up. Nope, "we'll see" and "maybe." Weekendcomes and goes, no
threesome, which was cool, but she admits later that she never had any
intention of having sex with us, and that she wasn't that sort of girl, etc.
 
So one "reasonable expectation" is, if I ask you if you're interested in sex,
and you say, "Maybe," then the reasonable expectation is that you haven't yet
ruled out the possibility. The direct approach, but most people are too shy
for the direct approach.
 
Another example: If you ever see me in party with mooncat, there's a
better-than-even odds that I'll hit on her, or make some other sexual
innuendo. She and I have an undestanding: She's not interested, I'm interested
but realize she isn't and don't really mind, and she doesn't care how much
I flirt with her as long s I keep my hands to myself and not sabotage any
serious relationships she might have. Groovy. I have no expectation of sexual
readiness on her part, so if she flirts back with me (which she does), I don't
consider that cockteasing.
 
Another example: A week or two back, oval, you asked me here, in this
conference, if I would have sex with you. I answered honestly, because I don't
know you well enough to know whether you were joking, flirting, or serious
(I assumed you were either joking or flirting). Since the question was not
part of a string of flirtations, I didn't consider it to be a profound
indication of sexual readiness, but if you'd followed my answer up with,
"Cool, wanna meet in party and see where it goes?" I would have taken THAT
as a proposition.
 
If you want a clear set of rules that handles every scenario, I can't give
you one. There ARE clear examples of creating an expectation (or not), but
there are likewise many scenarios where the only way of determining
expectations is by asking. Another example: I was flirting online with a guy
who, as far as I knew, was heterosexual  and in a monogamous marriage. As far
as I was concerned, those two details meant that any flirting I did would be
taken as "just playing." He surprised me when he telled me with: "Sorry I'm
not flirting as much with you today. I'm trying to figure out how to tell my
wife about this." [paraphrase, it's been a long time] My initial reaction was
to laugh at him (remember, I admitted to being a cocktease myself, in the
past), then realized that, while I was fully aware of what my intentions were,
someone else could have made other, similarly reasonable conclusions. So I
try not to flirt with people I'm not interested in, now (at least willing to
consider the potential for sex). But I also keep in mind that many people DO
flirt with no intention, and that's ok.


#57 of 73 by eeyore on Mon Jan 7 04:03:04 2002:

I'm honest enough to admit that I am the worst kind of flirt at
times....mostly with guys (although I do have my moments with women), and
while it's sometimes mild flirting, it's not always.  But the people that I
do massive flirting with are people that I'm comfortable with, and that know
me well enough to flirt massively back, while knowing that it's all in fun
and we'll never end up in bed.  This does include having my hands on people,
although usually in the manner of a back rub, or hugs, or laying my head on
their shoulder or something.  The reality is, I'm a very tactile person.  I
*LIKE* having my hands on people/things.  But if I'm not comfortable around
you, then my hands aren't on you.  And I'm usually not comfortable around
people that I'd like to get into bed....too nervous.  :)

(for those of you who have dealt with me in the touchyfeelyflirt mode, you
can agree or disagree with me as you see fit....I'm just seeing it from my
angle. :)


#58 of 73 by oval on Tue Jan 8 15:45:03 2002:

it could be my turn to say something. or not. i feel like maybe it is.
although i can't figure out what to say. <shrugs>


#59 of 73 by eeyore on Tue Jan 8 17:08:50 2002:

Tag, Youre it!  :)


#60 of 73 by oval on Tue Jan 8 21:33:43 2002:

crap.


#61 of 73 by phenix on Tue Jan 8 22:58:00 2002:

heh. i wanna tag oval:)


#62 of 73 by sj2 on Thu Mar 7 08:38:39 2002:

I don't have an issue with jealousy. I think its what you and your 
partner are comfortable with. I am ok with monogamy. Polygamy seems way 
too complicated to be fun. Managing emotions between two people is 
enough for a lifetime, i guess.


#63 of 73 by ssjgoten on Wed Oct 23 22:36:27 2002:

well i am new to this bbs, but if you want my opinion ,i think manogamy is
better because then you can have that one person and you dont have to worry
about pleasing so many people, but non-manogamous relationships you dont have
to worry about just one person, if you piss one person off, there's allways
someone else, just a thought

Goten Sayain

email me at: ssjgoten@cyberspace.org


#64 of 73 by jazz on Thu Oct 24 16:52:30 2002:

        Huh?


#65 of 73 by orinoco on Thu Oct 24 22:24:58 2002:

Manogamy.  You know, the cultural practice of marrying one's hand.  It keeps
you from having to worry about pleasing so many people.


#66 of 73 by michaela on Fri Oct 25 03:00:48 2002:

If you're ambidextrous, is it considered polygamy?


#67 of 73 by jazz on Fri Oct 25 13:21:28 2002:

        Is the masturbation scene in American Pie considered "missockany"?


#68 of 73 by phenix on Fri Oct 25 18:53:50 2002:

oodfayohile


#69 of 73 by romie on Sat Feb 15 17:31:52 2003:

no comment


#70 of 73 by otter on Sun Feb 16 17:45:53 2003:

resp:62 
Actually, polyamory (to be successful) requires that people communicate 
very openly and honestly regarding feelings, expectations, limitations, 
and a thousand other things. Open communication makes emotional issues 
infinitely more "manageable", no matter how many people are involved. 
When there are just two, it becomes far too easy to let communication 
lapse in favor of assumption. *That's* where I've seen relationships 
get into serious trouble.


#71 of 73 by void on Sat Mar 1 07:17:14 2003:

   I have yet to see any polyamorous relationship work out happily for
everyone involved.


#72 of 73 by jmsaul on Sun Mar 2 00:52:46 2003:

I have seen one do it.  Not without some apparent rough spots, but they've
weathered them so far as far as I can tell.


#73 of 73 by jazz on Sun Mar 2 22:12:01 2003:

        The key word, I guess, being "everyone".  I've seen stable polygamous
relationships work out, but never completely open polyamory without a stable
couple or triad at the centre.


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