Grex Cars Conference

Item 133: Ballmobile

Entered by ball on Mon Jun 14 17:29:46 2004:

58 new of 66 responses total.


#9 of 66 by ball on Sat Jun 19 07:10:00 2004:

Re #8: A 'station wagon' is probably not a bad match for
  our needs, but doesn't offer better ground clearance
  (useful in winter, on roads that are flooded, being dug up
  or are just plain crap).  My Civic has been great fun to
  drive, but it's way too easy to bottom out, or just clip
  debris.

  Your observation about 4WD makes sense, there's more there
  to go wrong.  In cars and other things I tend to prefer
  simplicity.


#10 of 66 by ball on Sat Jun 19 07:25:30 2004:

Re #7: 15 miles doesn't get me anywhere useful, but an
  electric bike is an interesting idea.  Out of interest, do
  they charge the battery when you're coasting downhill or
  braking?

  My next pushbike (pedal bicycle) will be leg-powered. I'll
  just have to ride it locally until I (hopefully) become
  fit enough to extend my range a bit.

  A rented truck wouldn't satisfy my wife's expectation of
  instant, on-demand cargo space. When we buy a house, it's
  likely to be a "fixer upper" and I daresay she'll have me
  driving furniture, building materials and other large (or
  just odd-shaped) stuff around.

  I actually quite like hatchbacks and really enjoyed
  driving a rented Vauxhall Corsa with an interesting
  3-cylinder 1 litre engine when I was getting ready to
  return to the U.S. in 1999.  I think it's a distant cousin
  of the Geo Metro over here, but with more elegant design.
  My wife's inevitable veto aside, that was probably better
  suited to British driving anyway.


#11 of 66 by rcurl on Sat Jun 19 17:27:23 2004:

An Outback station wagon offers better ground clearance - plus AWD.
(The 2005 model has even been raised more - but mainly to be a cop-out
from "car" to "light truck" in order to bypass CAFE.)  I drive a
Legacy wagon myself, for most of the benefits of a station wagon,
better clearance than US wagons, and AWD.


#12 of 66 by kentn on Sat Jun 19 19:05:33 2004:

I've been thinking about the Outback wagon for a while.  The AWD is
attractive when you live on roads that don't get plowed and that turn to
ice frequently.  Mainly the problem I've had with a 2WD truck is getting
started at icy intersections (especially those on hills).  It really
doesn't take much to get stuck with 2WD if you aren't careful.  So,
the idea of a little more traction to get going in those circumstances
sounds good, as does much better gas mileage.  

We, too, would not want to give up the ability to haul stuff (groceries,
bags of mulch, lumber, golf clubs, furniture, etc.) and carry a
passenger (spouse), but would like to get better MPG.  I live 25 miles
from work, 5 miles from the grocery store & pharmacy, and 10 miles from
the doctor's office. Biking is not an option, especially on the roads I
drive (narrow) and very especially with the kind of auto drivers I see
on the road every day.

I've owned two Subaru wagons in my lifetime.  Both of those had
shiftable 4WD (full time front wheel drive) and were excellent for
getting around in the winter. Both had a decent amount of space for
hauling. A luggage rack helps, too. Ground clearance was fine, though
nothing like a truck.  Gas mileage was excellent for a 4WD vehicle.

I've never had an AWD vehicle.  It seems they are getting more
sophisticated about applying power differentially to the wheels.  Our
neighbor has an AWD Audi and got stuck on the icy hill near our house
this past winter.  We were finally able to get the car up the hill by
taking a slightly faster run at at (there's a corner at the bottom of
the hill that makes gaining speed on the ice difficult unless you want
to slide into the big trees near the bridge).

So, I'd be curious how they fare in the icy SE MI winters.  

(The night my neighbor got stuck with her AWD, I took the back way into
my house, which avoided taking the hill with my truck (I've been stuck
on the icy hill before, too, and that was also a result of not being
able to take a good enough run, but due to gawkers looking at the car in
the creek beside the bridge). Note that I put 600# of sand in the back
of the truck in winter and that helps a lot with maintaining control and
getting started (but puts a dent your mileage). You definitely can't
make jack rabbit starts, though.  And if you're going too fast and try
to stop quickly, you'll slide real nice.)


#13 of 66 by keesan on Sat Jun 19 19:06:03 2004:

It would be cheaper to get building materials delivered (it is $25 charge
around here) than to buy a large and wasteful vehicle to do it yourself.
The electric bike regenerates when you are braking, which could include
downhill.  If you pedal most of the time and use the motor only for assist
going up hills it will take you more than 15 miles.  The cheaper models do
not regenerate.


#14 of 66 by rcurl on Sat Jun 19 21:47:27 2004:

I had an older Subaru with on-demand 4WD, which I thought was great in
winter. I was also leery of AWD when the option of 4WD ended, but it
certainly has still been an improvement over 2WD on snowy streets in
winter. However *nothing* will do you much good on glare ice: 4WD slips
just as much as 2WD in a skid on ice. 


#15 of 66 by ball on Sun Jun 20 02:40:02 2004:

I had the starter replaced in my Civic ($220 including
labour).  I'll try to wring another year out of it if I can.

Whatever four-wheeled vehicle I eventually replace it with,
I'll miss its fuel economy (40 miles per (US) gallon, which
napkin maths suggest is about 5.7 litres per 100 km).

Perhaps I'll eventually get another motorcycle. I would like
a pushbike too. At present I can afford neither (but perhaps
the new house has a money tree growing in the garden ;-)


Re #11: What's CAFE?

Re #12: The difference between 4WD and AWD has never been
  explained to me (and I've never before found myself in the
  market for either).  Is AWD the (permanent?) provision of
  less drive to the rear wheels? Am I right in thinking that
  AWD<4WD?


#16 of 66 by kentn on Sun Jun 20 03:50:24 2004:

I've never driven an AWD vehicle, so all I know is what I've read on the
vehicle manufacturers web sites and from watching that AWD Audi get stuck
and eventually make it up the hill.

There are a number of AWD vehicles being manufactured now.  Actually
I was kind of disappointed that Subaru switched from on-demand 4WD to
AWD.  But, they seem to think it works better, probably because it can
react quicker to changes in road conditions than a driver who has to
consciously switch on 4WD. And you had to do so at less than 50 mph,
if I remember correctly.  AWD would be available at any speed.


#17 of 66 by rcurl on Sun Jun 20 04:27:20 2004:

I was also disappointed that Subaru dropped 4WD. It was a plus that you
could run in 2WD (front) for better fuel economy on dry, even, roads, and
engage 4WD only when you needed it. It also had an extra-low gear in 4WD -
much lower than "first", which would let you climb rough rocky roads at
very low speed. A drawback of the Subaru version of 4WD was that you could
not make tight turns on dry pavement because the wheels were not
4W-differential (and if you forgot, and found the car resisting turning,
it was difficult to disengage the 4WD). 

AWD is quite different. The wheels are NOT linked with a differential. 
The differential tries to distribute power so that each wheel receives
equal torque. Therefore the wheel(s) with the least *resistance* turn(s)
the fastest and receive(s) the majority of the power. That means that you
can't budge with one wheel spinning in a mudhole. AWD provides the torque
(and power) to the wheel(s) with the *most* resistance. Hence even with
three wheels on glare ice and getting no traction, if the fourth wheel
does have traction, it will move you. AWD has therefore been called "best
wheel drive". 

A drawback is that the additional mechanism for AWD consumes some power,
and hence one gets slightly poorer gas mileage than with 2WD alone. 
Another drawback is that you cannot tow the car on just its front or rear
wheels: you have to call a garage with a flat-bed wrecker to move your car
is disabled. 



#18 of 66 by scott on Sun Jun 20 12:58:44 2004:

At this point I'd make no assumptions about the price of gas... 

Aside from that, I really can't see the need for a personal truck for most
people.  You can get lumber delivered, you can park a regular car much more
easily, SUVs have known safety issues, etc.

If you bought a 4WD or AWD car, how much would you save just in the purchase
and insurance?  Would spending part of that on upgrading something in your
house make your wife (and you) happier?


#19 of 66 by ball on Sun Jun 20 18:21:45 2004:

Re #18: What I've read here suggests that I would prefer
  (manually invoked) 4WD to AWD.  I see very few Diesel cars
  here in the U.S, certainly far fewer than in Britain.  I
  think we also had more cars available with van variants
  (including small cars like the Corsa that I mentioned).  I
  might be persuaded to forgo the extra ground clearance if
  I could find something small, but with credible space.


#20 of 66 by keesan on Sun Jun 20 22:19:51 2004:

How about a 2-door hatchback plus a trailer for large loads?
Diesel stinks.


#21 of 66 by ball on Mon Jun 21 06:46:07 2004:

Today we drove around some dealerships and checked out the
available vehicles.  I was horrified.  They all seem to have
petrol/gas engines and automatic transmissions.  I think the
best quoted fuel economy that I saw was 26 MPG (9 l/100km)
and many were < 20 MPG.  It's astonishing to me that they
sell any of these things.  It's somewhat baffling that they
are even legal!  Whatever vehicle I buy, it will not be any-
thing that I looked at today.  :-(


Re #2: I don't get it.

Re #18: Gas currently costs the approximate equivalent of
  US$ 4.85 per US Gallon in Britain.  Today we paid US$ 1.96
  per US Gallon here in Illinois.


#22 of 66 by ball on Mon Jun 21 06:54:21 2004:

Re #20: a 2 door hatchback (generally called "3-door" by the
  car people) would suit me for the most part.  The trailer
  is a very good idea.  My wife would veto a hatchback
  though, and even though I would like one, it doesn't
  address the ground clearance issue.

  Diesel engines should be much more efficient than petrol/
  gas ones, and are often more solidly built.  A modern
  Diesel engine that is well maintained should not stink.  I
  don't think I've seen a Diesel hatchback here in the U.S.
  (although they're common enough in Britain).


#23 of 66 by ball on Mon Jun 21 07:01:41 2004:

My friend Nigel drives one of these in the course of his
work, and I like it. Does anyone sell something like this in
the U.S...?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/njs.cube/photos/axion/photos/hoovering.jpg

                      ...it's a Vauxhall Corsa Combo Van.  I
understand that the chap with the vacuum cleaner is an
optional extra ;-)


#24 of 66 by rcurl on Mon Jun 21 16:01:19 2004:

A manual transmission is one of my criteria for a car: that really limits
the available models. 


#25 of 66 by keesan on Mon Jun 21 16:49:02 2004:

Diesel engines produce soot as well as stinking.
I thought you said your wife had her own car.  How can she veto what you get
for yourself?
Did you look at cars, or vans/SUVs?  Fuel efficiency rules hold only for cars.
Half of new private motor vehicles sold are not cars (roughly).


#26 of 66 by ball on Mon Jun 21 17:27:03 2004:

This response has been erased.



#27 of 66 by ball on Mon Jun 21 17:32:10 2004:

Re #25: Suffice to say that she can. Whether that's right or
  not is a topic for another conference. We looked at trucks
  and SUVs.  I would like a /real/ utilitiy vehicle (RUV?)
  though.


#28 of 66 by scott on Mon Jun 21 18:06:21 2004:

Good luck finding an SUV with a manual transmission.  Probably you could get
a basic pickup truck (F150, etc) with a manual.


#29 of 66 by ball on Mon Jun 21 18:41:53 2004:

Re #28: I wouldn't feel comfortable buying a Ford, in part
  because of their reputation for poor reliability.  I hear
  good things about Toyota though, perhaps I'll be able to
  find a manual, Diesel Toyota truck.


#30 of 66 by keesan on Mon Jun 21 23:39:06 2004:

26 mpg for a truck is pretty good.  I think it would be a lot cheaper to rent
one only when needed, rather than waste gasoline by using it for
transportation as well as hauling.


#31 of 66 by gull on Tue Jun 22 14:58:30 2004:

Re resp:9: Keep in mind that a Civic is an unusually low car.  Most
cars, including my 240, have a couple inches more ground clearance than
a Civic.

Re resp:12: "Mainly the problem I've had with a 2WD truck is getting
started at icy intersections (especially those on hills).  It really
doesn't take much to get stuck with 2WD if you aren't careful."

A limited-slip differential helps quite a bit.  So does adding weight to
the rear.  If you don't have a limited-slip diff, sometimes applying the
parking brake slightly when trying to get started on a slick surface
will help.

Re resp:20: Most current 2-door hatchbacks aren't rated for towing,
unfortunately.  My Civic's manual just said towing was "not recommended."

Re resp:29: I don't think Toyota currently sells diesels in the U.S.  VW
does, but they don't make a truck.  All the other diesels you're likely
to find will be V-8s or bigger.  The company I work for has a Chevy 2500
diesel pickup truck.  It gets about 25 mpg, which is far better than the
same truck would get with a gas engine, but still not impressive.  There
is the Dodge Sprinter (aka. Freightliner Sprinter, aka. Mercedes
Sprinter), which is available with a 5-cyl. inline diesel, but that's a
full-sized van.

Basically, diesels were briefly popular here during the two major oil
shortages.  After that, they fell out of favor.  GM produced some really
terrible V-8 diesel cars in the 70s that were unreliable, smokey, and
hard to start, and that pretty much turned people off on the whole idea.
 Then there were the early diesel VW Rabbits that were underpowered and
kept blowing head gaskets.  Basically, your typical American's opinion
of diesel engines is not very high.


#32 of 66 by ball on Sun Jun 27 23:28:26 2004:

Re #30: "good" for a petrol/gasoline truck perhaps, which is
  one of the reasons that I want a Diesel!


#33 of 66 by keesan on Mon Jun 28 02:56:07 2004:

Diesel fumes are particular bad for innocent bystanders who have asthma, as
well as smelling terrible.  The soot is what bothers people with asthma. 
Minimizing driving would work better than getting something diesel.


#34 of 66 by kentn on Tue Jun 29 13:28:31 2004:

Re 31: I did say I put 600# of sand in the rear.  That helps a lot.
Limit slip differentials are nice but not if they don't come with your
used vehicle.  Even with the extra weight, which helped a lot, it was
possible to get stuck if the hill was steep and icy.  If you're not
careful, it's really easy to get stuck.


#35 of 66 by ball on Wed Jun 30 06:48:44 2004:

Re #33: As a person with Asthma, I think it's nice that
  you're considerate of that.  All the talk about soot &
  smells may be appropriate to large, poorly maintained old
  engines, but it doesn't sound like any of the modern small
  Diesels that I have experienced.

  I would love to minimise my driving.  My last job had me
  based in an office literally just across the street from
  where I live.  I could walk to the recycling centre with
  the office recyclables, to the post office to collect mail
  and to the bank to deposit my paycheque.  There were times
  when I actually had to remember to drive my car just to
  'stretch its legs'.  Unfortunately those paycheques that I
  mentioned dried up, forcing me to take a job at a factory
  twenty miles away.  I wish that I could afford the luxury
  of minimising my driving.


#36 of 66 by keesan on Wed Jun 30 14:58:31 2004:

Does anyone else in the town where you live work at this same factory?


#37 of 66 by ball on Wed Jun 30 16:10:31 2004:

Re #36: No, especially not on my shift (16:00 - 24:30)


#38 of 66 by keesan on Thu Jul 1 02:50:05 2004:

Maybe you can go into business for yourself locally?  Yardwork?  That sounds
awful, having to travel 40 miles a day to work that shift.  


#39 of 66 by ball on Thu Jul 1 06:33:07 2004:

Re #38: It is fairly awful, and speaks of the difficult
  position that I find myself in.  I lack the financial
  resources to go into business for myself, although it's an
  option that is frequently suggested to me. I can only hope
  that things will improve once I have an Associate Degree
  to go with my existing British vocational qualifications.

  A new Ballmobile would take me to work, to earn money to
  pay car payments, other bills, tuition fees, buy textbooks
  etc.  It would also take me to college (at least 20 miles
  in the opposite direction) for those classes that I must
  take face-to-face.  I certainly couldn't afford to run one
  of the hideous gas-guzzling trucks I saw at the dealer
  -ships.  :-/


#40 of 66 by keesan on Thu Jul 1 15:54:06 2004:

Do you realize you said the new car would take you to work to earn money to
pay for the new car?  A used car would be a lot cheaper, since many people
think used is worth less because of status issues.  Jim got his textbook used,
half price, online (eBay?).  I presume your wife got a good job in the town
where you cannot find work.  You don't need much of a financial investment
to do yardwork or child care, and even if they don't pay as much it would
avoid the long commute.


#41 of 66 by ball on Thu Jul 1 17:15:49 2004:

Re #40: Yes, that's why I wrote it ;-)  I certainly plan to
  buy a used vehicle, a brand new one would be prohibitely
  expensive.  Even a used reliable vehicle represents a
  significant financial burden.

  Yard work would not bring in a sustainable income.  There
  are other obstacles, but the most obvious one is that I
  can't expect to compete with the teenage kids who can
  afford to work for pocket money.  Child care a similarly
  unrealistic option.  My wife works in another town, North
  of us (although not so far North as my college).  She has
  the distinct advantage of a Master's Degree.


#42 of 66 by keesan on Fri Jul 2 03:37:14 2004:

So why don't you move North to either the town where she works or the town
where you want to attend classes?  Then one of you won't need a car.


#43 of 66 by ball on Fri Jul 2 06:21:55 2004:

This response has been erased.



#44 of 66 by ball on Fri Jul 2 16:31:41 2004:

Re #42: Besides, if we lived in either of those places I
  would have to drive even further to get to work.


#45 of 66 by keesan on Sat Jul 3 23:51:25 2004:

I hope you eventually find a place to live that is the same as the place where
you both work.  Maybe a degree will help get a closer job.


#46 of 66 by ball on Sun Jul 4 00:31:15 2004:

Re #45: So long as the degree helps me get a better job,
  that has to be my main priority at present.  I agree that
  it would be nice not to have to drive to work though.


#47 of 66 by ball on Wed Jul 7 19:45:12 2004:

I'm looking at the Toyota Matrix.  It's not a truck, it's an
estate car/station wagon.  Its stated fuel economy reflects
that.  It has room in the back for modest loads, and ground
clearance looks better than that of my Civic.  It lacks a
Diesel engine, but apparently many of them are stick shift
and some even have six forward gears.


#48 of 66 by slynne on Wed Jul 7 21:06:33 2004:

Isnt the Toyota Matrix the same car as the Pontiac Vibe?


#49 of 66 by ball on Thu Jul 8 06:48:42 2004:

Re #48: "The twins are a General Motors-Toyota co-production
  using Toyota drivetrains.  Vibes are built in the NUMI
  plant in California that also manufactures most Corollas
  sold in the U.S, while all Matrixes are assembled in
  Canada at Toyota s award-winning Cambridge plant."

     http://autonet.ca/DriverSource/Stories.cfm?StoryID=5151

It sounds as though the important parts come from Toyota, so
I'll try not to let the Pontiac connection put me off.


#50 of 66 by n8nxf on Thu Jul 29 15:28:10 2004:

I had a Chevy Toyota Corolla Nova back in the 80's.  We liked it a lot and
had it for 15 years putting 150K on it.  I would think it's the same deal with
the Vib.


#51 of 66 by ball on Fri Jul 30 16:55:52 2004:

Re #50: did it make a good ground plane?  ;-)


#52 of 66 by n8nxf on Sun Feb 6 03:59:16 2005:

It wasn't plastic so, yes it did.


#53 of 66 by ball on Mon Aug 29 18:10:37 2005:

My napkin math was wrong, but not 'out of the ball park'
wrong.  According to the metric conversions at...

              http://www.sciencemadesimple.net

                           ...40 MPG is about 5.88 l/100 km.

We bought the Matrix.  Not Diesel :-(  Stick shift :-)  No
accelleration :-(  Reasonable fuel economy :-)  Gas costs
half as much here as in Britain, but I'm still feeling the
effect of the rise in gasoline prices.

- Andy Ball


#54 of 66 by ball on Mon Jan 9 05:04:17 2006:

It finally happened at Christmas: there came a day when the
Matrix was officially too small.  We were going out of town
for a couple of days to visit family and couldn't squeeze
everything that we needed in there.

Before we added a child seat that prevented us from folding
down the rear seats, I was able to use the Matrix to bring
home a small chest freezer in a 1m wide carton.  I was
somewhat surprised that it fit.  Now I'm starting to see why
suburban families might buy SUVs, mini-vans or other such
monstrosities.

I wouldn't object to a long-wheelbase Land Rover Defender
(biodiesel, naturally ;-) but that's more for use as a
platform for experiments in radio, electronics and perhaps
astronomy. I get the impression that those aren't legal over
here anyway, so perhaps I should buy an old Geo Metro, strip
everything out of that, stiffen the suspension and start
welding and bolting things to it.  >:-)


#55 of 66 by rcurl on Mon Jan 9 06:21:54 2006:

I drive non-SUV wagons. For carrying equipment for four people for car 
camping I built a box with doors that can be carried on top, with four 
compartments on one side for individual gear and compartments on the other 
side for tent, cooking gear, etc. There is no reason to have a vehicle 
that can carry all that when most of the time all that is not being 
carried. I've thought that such containers should be standard accessories 
one could buy with a car, but they aren't.


#56 of 66 by gull on Tue Jan 10 04:02:12 2006:

A utility trailer is often a good option, too, although most modern 
cars have laughably small towing capacities.  (Yet another reason 
people buy SUVs.) 
 
The Land Rover Defender has, as far as I know, not been sold in the 
U.S. for about a decade.  Importing cars younger than 25 years that 
weren't sold here is difficult because they're required to meet EPA/DOT 
standards. 


#57 of 66 by n8nxf on Wed Jan 25 14:36:51 2006:

We drove our Subaru Legacy wagon from Michigan to Oregon and back with two
teens, two adults, an 8-man cabin tent, sleeping bags and clothing for all.
The Yakima Space Box on top made it possible.


#58 of 66 by springne on Wed Jan 25 14:46:01 2006:

I ride a bicycle a lot, every day.

And I'm looking at a Ford F-250 with the "mobile office" detachable tablet
computer with voice command.  I'm waiting for the local Ford dealer to get
one in.


#59 of 66 by keesan on Wed Jan 25 23:25:30 2006:

Re 57, 2 plus 2 does not add to 8 - why such a big tent instead of 2 small
ones?  We drove our 1986 Toyota around the country for a month with camping
gear, clothing, cooking gear, food for two, and a piano.
What is a tablet computer?


#60 of 66 by ball on Mon Feb 6 04:25:18 2006:

Re #59: Picture a conventional laptop with the display where
        the keyboard would normally be and without the lid.  
        They generally feature touch-sensitive displays that
        people use with a plastic stylus.

        Similar are 'convertibles' where you can open the    
        lid, twist it 180 degrees so that the display is on
        the outside and close it to use it like a tablet.


#61 of 66 by keesan on Mon Feb 6 15:13:16 2006:

I would rather use a keyboard to enter data.  Someone gave us a PDA without
a keyboard and to enter data you either have to draw each letter carefully
or tap on pictures of each letter on a 'keyboard' on the display.  It is a
really slow way to enter data unless you are the sort who types with one
finger anyway.  


#62 of 66 by rcurl on Mon Feb 6 18:51:03 2006:

I find entering information in a PDA to be moderately easy, but a little
frustrating because I type with ten fingers working together while one ony
has one stylus to enter characters on a PDA. It can only be done as fast as
one can write. In some circumstances writing is better than typing - one case
might be when taking lecture notes. One has to first listen to what is being
said and then write down key thoughts or data. Doing it on a keyboard could
distract one from first understanding before recording. But then, I've never
tried to take notes on a keyboard, so maybe I'm wrong.


#63 of 66 by keesan on Mon Feb 6 20:49:14 2006:

I would much rather type notes, it goes faster, but maybe people need to draw
and store drawings not just text?


#64 of 66 by gull on Mon Feb 6 22:08:59 2006:

I find writing notes to be more useful during meetings or lectures, 
because I can draw diagrams, or draw arrows to illustrate connections.  
I've developed a sort of loose outline style for note-taking, over the 
years -- I use indentation to denote ideas that relate to each other 
but I don't use a rigid I, II, III or a), b), c) sequence, just dashes. 
 
On the other hand, if I'm creating notes that will be used to make a 
speech or document, I find typing them to be more useful, because it's 
easier to rearrange whole blocks of information to make things flow 
better.  In that case the notes generally get written in a text editor, 
and the final document in a full-blown word processor. 


#65 of 66 by keesan on Mon Feb 6 22:29:05 2006:

So how is it more useful to draw on a computer instead of paper while taking
notes?


#66 of 66 by gull on Mon Feb 6 22:35:01 2006:

I don't know.  I've always drawn on paper.  I suppose some people would 
find computer notes easier to file, back up, and distribute to others, 
though.  When I worked at Interclean, it was common for us to take a 
digital photo of any whiteboard drawings we made during a meeting so we 
could all have a copy. 


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