Grex Agora47 Conference

Item 92: Your favourite audio storage format

Entered by sj2 on Wed Oct 15 08:52:00 2003:

I have several tapes and CDs. While tapes suffer from quality , CDs 
suffer from scratches after repeated usage.

So whats your favourite storage media?

I was looking at DAT. Looks like it has the best of both the worlds. 
But its not as popular as tape or CD. Anyone using DAT to store audio 
(in non mp3 format). Do you own a DAT player??
85 responses total.

#1 of 85 by mynxcat on Wed Oct 15 12:25:20 2003:

This response has been erased.



#2 of 85 by krj on Wed Oct 15 13:24:30 2003:

My observation is that geezers like me who grew up handling vinyl, 
very carefully, don't scratch the CDs.  In particular, every CD goes 
back in its box as soon as it comes out of the player.   
 
If the player itself is scratching the CDs, then the player is 
broken.
 
Some of the CDs I get out of the library are so scratched, I have trouble
imagining what the other users are doing to them.


#3 of 85 by mynxcat on Wed Oct 15 13:44:46 2003:

This response has been erased.



#4 of 85 by anderyn on Wed Oct 15 13:47:47 2003:

They do? I keep my cds in their cases, except when they're being played. How
do they get scratched?!




#5 of 85 by gull on Wed Oct 15 13:50:48 2003:

It's not that much work.  In my experience there are only two things you
have to do to keep CDs unscratched:

- Put them back in the jewel box when you're done playing them.
and...
- Put them back in the jewel box when you're done playing them.

Really, that's it.  A CD wallet will work too, though not quite as well.
 CDs get scratched when you set them down, playing side down, on some
random surface.  The dust and grit that are always around will
inevitably scratch them if you do that.  If you look carefully at a
jewel box, you'll realize only the center hub actually touches anything
while the CD is inside it.

I've never had a CD get badly scratched (enough to affect playback) this
way.  The only exception is a disc that a defective CD-ROM drive dumped
back in the tray while it was still spinning.


#6 of 85 by slynne on Wed Oct 15 14:58:38 2003:

Isnt that funny. I grew up with vinyl and really like CD's because they 
arent easy to scratch. I think I have one scratch that effects play on 
one CD in my *whole* collection. I do tend to put them back into their 
case after listening to them though. Just like I wouldnt have ever left 
vinyl records laying around. 


#7 of 85 by carson on Wed Oct 15 15:09:00 2003:

(I wouldn't recommend DATs unless you're recording audio pieces of 
considerable length [i.e., a half-hour radio program] or something where
you don't want to skip around from track to track.  minidiscs are a good
option; I seem to remember that the format uses a cartridge medium, which
is more resistant to scratches than exposed media such as vinyl and CDs.)

(right now, my preferred format is either MP3 or OGG on a CD.  as a
recovering music collector, I owned a LOT of singles and maxi-singles, and
there's really no point in this day an age to have just 1-4 songs on a
disc when you can rip and combine.)


#8 of 85 by keesan on Wed Oct 15 15:10:04 2003:

Most of the music I own is vinyl records (purchased at $4/bag or about 10
cents each).  I also have tapes of library CDs, the ones I can find that
someone else did not destroy.  We got six good ones recently.


#9 of 85 by scott on Wed Oct 15 15:19:02 2003:

Minor scratches it CDs can be polished out using toothpaste.


#10 of 85 by krj on Wed Oct 15 16:44:40 2003:

   (((  Fall Agora item 92 linked as Music item 162  )))


#11 of 85 by mcnally on Wed Oct 15 17:15:38 2003:

  Whenever I borrow a CD from the library I'm appalled by the scratches
  on it.  I can only ever recall having scratched two of my own CDs
  beyond repair (out of nearly 1500) -- one of them I dropped on a
  gravel driveway, and the other got mangled by the CD player when I
  didn't set it in the tray properly and then tried to close the drawer.
  Lots of people must have bad CD-handling habits, though, because quite
  frequently when I borrow a CD from the library or rent a DVD from the
  video store the disc looks as though it's been sandblasted.

  Like the other respondents who say they have no problem with their CDs
  I don't feel like I do anything particularly special to care for mine --
  I just always keep them in the jewel boxes when they're not in the player.

  Lately, however, my CDs are even less likely to suffer mishap, as I've
  switched almost exclusively to MP3s for listening.  My record collection
  was too large to haul to Alaska when I moved this summer so it's in 
  storage in Michigan.  Before I left Washington, however, I ripped every
  album I own to MP3 and put them all on an external 100Gbyte drive that
  I can fit in a backpack.  My originals are all protected and I can carry
  my music with me wherever I go.



#12 of 85 by gull on Wed Oct 15 18:11:03 2003:

Re #7: My main complaint about minidisc is it's proprietary.  That makes it
both expensive and more likely to disappear.  I just can't shake the feeling
that it's likely to become the digital equivalent of 8-track tape.

Re #11: I wonder if the problem is all the hype that surrounded CDs when
they first came out.  I can remember salesmen claiming they were "virtually
indestructable."  Maybe people believed that a bit too well.

I, too, have taken to ripping my CDs to MP3 and burning discs with several
albums on them, mostly for use in the car.  (This is, of course, technically
illegal.)


#13 of 85 by scott on Wed Oct 15 18:36:10 2003:

Actually if you keep the CDs and don't give/sell copies to other people you're
technically legal.  

I still prefer CDs.  I reload my computers often enough to not want to bother
with hard drive storage, plus I'd rather not compromise sound quality with
MP3 or other lossy-compression format.  I'll use Minidiscs in the car and on
trips, though.  


#14 of 85 by goose on Wed Oct 15 19:02:27 2003:

DAT is not what you want as a long term archive.  DATs will self destruct,
sometimes in very short amounts of time.  DAT is barely used in the
professional arena anymore, so machines and media will probably be hard to
find in the near future.  DAT is dying.  I have a DAT and enough tape to keep
me going for a while, but I only power it up about once every three months.

I make copies of all the CDs I buy and play those, keeping the originals in
their boxes.  With bulk CD-Rs at the sub-thirty cent level it's not a big
expenditure.  I just do them in small batches when I can so it's not a big
time drain.  I'm about 1/2 way through backing up my whole collection.


#15 of 85 by slynne on Wed Oct 15 19:42:08 2003:

I have a question for folks. I have been thinking about buying an mp3 
player so that I can listen to music while I am walking my dogs. I have 
no idea how to turn my cd's into mp3's. I assume it is legal. Is there 
special software a person has to buy to do this. Also, what is a good 
mp3 player? Is it possible to get one that can be used in the car too?


#16 of 85 by orinoco on Wed Oct 15 19:56:20 2003:

If you break the little plastic fangs that hold the CD in the jewel box, then
the jewel box doesn't give any protection against scratches anymore.  I
learned that the hard way.

Also, keeping CDs in a disk wallet makes it much easier to scratch them.  I
learned that the hard way too.

So it's harder to damage CDs, but not impossible.  


#17 of 85 by keesan on Wed Oct 15 20:44:23 2003:

Slynne, would you like a walkman type tape deck and a tape recorder?


#18 of 85 by slynne on Wed Oct 15 21:13:06 2003:

No. I dont have tapes and find they are kind of a pain. I want to go 
tapeless. Thanks for the offer though. :) 


#19 of 85 by mcnally on Wed Oct 15 21:40:44 2003:

  re #162:  
  > I have no idea how to turn my cd's into mp3's. I assume it is legal.

  It seems to be.

  > Is there special software a person has to buy to do this?

  You do need software which will "rip" (extract the digital audio
  information from your CDs) and then encode to MP3, but there are
  plenty of packages you can download for free that will do that.
  If you want a polished package with a graphical user interface,
  MusicMatch is a fairly decent choice.  I think the ripping speed
  in the free download version is limited but it'll work.

  If you want more faithful audio reproduction, I am very happy
  with the results I get from "lame", which can be downloaded
  freely.  However, although it's not difficult to use it's also
  not a polished package for beginners.

  > Also, what is a good mp3 player?

  I strongly recommend the Apple iPod.  It's an excellent mp3 player,
  and refurbished 10 Gbyte models were recently selling for $169 from
  Apple.  If you're planning on doing something much more active than
  walking (for example jogging or aerobics) you might want to choose a
  different type of mp3 player.  Right now there are two main types of
  mp3 devices -- the hard-disk-based players like the iPod and solid-state
  players that use built-in memory or flash memory cards and have no
  moving parts.  Although the solid-state-storage players offer far
  less storage than the disk-based players they're less delicate and
  more robust for high-impact exercise situations.

  > Is it possible to get one that can be used in the car too?

  Yes.  Almost any mp3 player will work with the accessory kits they
  sell for car use.  I've got one for my iPod that has a small 
  battery-powered FM retransmitter.  I turn on the iPod and the
  retransmitter and listen to the music on my car radio.  If your
  car stereo has a tape deck you might prefer an adaptor with a
  cassette interface.  Best of all, if your car stereo has an audio
  input jack you don't need a special gizmo at all, just a cable.

  I'm compelled to say again how much I really, really, really, like
  my iPod.  Although I'm eagerly waiting for someone to produce an
  even better device, I don't think its disk-based competitors are
  in its class yet.


#20 of 85 by slynne on Wed Oct 15 21:54:26 2003:

I guess you can use an iPod with a PC? I am going to do a little 
research on that. 


#21 of 85 by mcnally on Wed Oct 15 22:05:05 2003:

  Yes.  Though originally they only came in the Mac version, 
  now there's a Mac version and a PC version.  You can also
  convert one to the other by re-flashing the firmware, so
  it's not an insurmountable problem if you wind up with the
  wrong type.


#22 of 85 by sj2 on Thu Oct 16 09:35:42 2003:

The flash-disk MP3 players are cool though. I think you can go upto 
512MB on them. They connect to the USB port of your PC and appear as a 
disk drive to your PC, so you can transfer files easily (no drivers 
required). You can also use them for regular file transfers between 
PCs apart from use as an MP3 player. And most of them have a FM radio  
built-in too. RCA, Siemens, iRiver etc have several good models.

And they are really small.

Or you could buy a portable MP3-CD player. 


#23 of 85 by gull on Thu Oct 16 13:49:57 2003:

Re #13: I've heard it's illegal because computer CD-RW devices are not
covered by the Home Recording Act.  Only audio CD-RW burners (that take
the special audio blanks) are.  Realistically, though, no one is going
to be hauled into court over this.

Re #19: LAME is my pick of stand-alone encoder, too.  It's generally
rated highly in tests.  Please don't use Bladeenc.  Trust me, it's awful.

For audio ripping I like Exact Audio Copy.  It does a great job
extracting audio even from damaged CDs.  I even used it to salvage a
scratched CD, once.

The disadvantage of doing it this way is it's a two-step process.  There
are products out there like RealJukebox that can rip and encode in one
step, but I haven't used them so I can't comment on the quality.

I like MP3-CD players because the media is so cheap.  I can fit over a
hundred songs on a single CD-R blank.  They're bulky so they're probably
not the best choice for jogging, but they work great in the car.  I have
two of them, a portable one (that can be used with a tape adapter) and
an in-dash one I bought later.


#24 of 85 by mcnally on Thu Oct 16 16:28:26 2003:

  I considered a portable MP3/CD player but ultimately decided that
  they weren't portable enough for me -- they're too large to fit in
  most pockets and if I can't tuck it away in a pocket and take it 
  with me then chances are I won't get a lot of use out of a portable
  device.  In my opinion the iPod is about as large as I'd like to go
  (at least without a compelling reason for it to be larger, such as
  video capabilities requiring a bigger screen) and one of the chief
  attractions of the flash memory players is that they are smaller still -
  *much* smaller in some cases.  Smaller is better, at least until the
  small form factor starts interfering too much with other engineering
  goals, such as battery life and user interface.


#25 of 85 by gull on Thu Oct 16 20:22:53 2003:

The attractive thing about the iPod, from my perspective, is that it has
enough storage that you can load in a bunch of stuff and be able to
select what fits your mood later.  With the flash disk based players,
storage capacity is pretty limited so you have to decide ahead of time
what you want to listen to.


#26 of 85 by mcnally on Thu Oct 16 22:04:23 2003:

  Yes, that's a huge win in my book.  It's got enough storage, in fact,
  that you can also carry around useful non-music stuff with you.
  I use mine to carry around a couple of useful applications (e.g. putty)
  and some other helpful stuff, plus of course the calendar and phone
  number/contact data for the built-in organizer programs.


#27 of 85 by dbratman on Thu Oct 16 22:19:32 2003:

I've had trays half-close on CDs that I improperly inserted.  It didn't 
hurt the CD.

I've set CDs down on random surfaces and left them there.  That didn't 
hurt the CDs either.


#28 of 85 by dbratman on Thu Oct 16 22:24:30 2003:

The one thing about handling CDs that really makes me wince is when 
people pull them out of the jewel case by the edges only.  The CD bends 
terribly until the prong thingies in the middle let go.

No, no!  Here's how you take a CD out of the jewel case: Thumb and 
forefinger of one hand grab the edges of the CD at the top and bottom 
of the case.  Thumb of the other hand press down on the prongs.  
(Fingers of second hand can brace themselves against the edge of the 
case.)  Now LIFT - do not pull - the CD out of the prongs with the 
first hand, removing the second hand's thumb when the CD comes clear.


#29 of 85 by dbratman on Thu Oct 16 22:26:29 2003:

Sorry, I have to correct myself above.  I just tried it, and realized 
that I use thumb and -second- finger of the left hand for better 
traction when lifting out the CD.


#30 of 85 by mcnally on Fri Oct 17 00:24:51 2003:

 re #27:
 > I've had trays half-close on CDs that I improperly inserted.  It didn't 
 > hurt the CD.

 Most of the time it doesn't, but at least once in my experience it left
 a surprisingly deep gouge in the disc.


#31 of 85 by gull on Fri Oct 17 00:53:17 2003:

I usually use the thumb and ring finger on my right hand to lift the edges
of the CD while I press down the prongs with the index finger on the same
hand.  That may not work for other people with smaller hands, though.

Incidentally, CDs have error correction codes built in, and for that reason
scratches that go radially across the disc aren't a big problem.  It's
scratches that follow the direction of the tracks that are troublesome.  For
that reason it's best to wipe directly across the CD surface when cleaning a
CD, not in circles around the hole like you would on a record.

Also, the most fragile side of a CD is the label side.  The playing side is
thick polycarbonate.  It can be scratched, but the scratches can, in a
pinch, be polished out.  The label side is laquer and the data layer is very
close to the surface.  I have one CD-R disc where a deep scratch in the
label side went through to the data layer and obliterated it, leaving clear
spot.


#32 of 85 by mcnally on Fri Oct 17 05:54:43 2003:

I didn't think it was especially helpful, but there was an article in the NYT
this week that was basically a summary of MP3 players for those not very well
acquainted with them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/16/technology/circuits/16basi.html?pagewante
d=1&8hpib


#33 of 85 by vegetto on Fri Oct 17 10:12:38 2003:

I also have ripped MANY  cds to mp3,put multiple albums on one CD and
repeat.Right now I'm in the process of taking my 50 cds full of data and
transferring them to DVD's because I recently bought a burner for that reason.
4.7 gigs of storage as opposed to 650-700 megs is a SIGNIFICANT difference.50
data cds go onto about 9 DVDs-MUCH easierto index and keep track of.


#34 of 85 by gull on Fri Oct 17 13:30:53 2003:

It's interesting to think back to when the first MP3 players came out,
and were immediately the subject of legal challenges.  At the time a lot
of people thought they'd be banned.  Now they're commonly available from
major companies, not just grey-market importers.


#35 of 85 by krj on Sat Oct 18 01:49:23 2003:

Big Music tried to get MP3 players banned; Rio fought the lawsuit and 
won, but was saddled with heavy legal expenses which helped to end their
existence as an independent company, IIRC.  What I *do* remember 
correctly is that the court held that a MP3 *player* is not an 
audio "recording" device within the framework of the Audio Home Recording
Act, and thus it is not required to implement "serial copy management
system."  Note, however, that there are no quality MP3 standalone 
recorders, due to the AHRA.
 
There's a whole rant here, but you're probably all tired of reading 
it in the Napster items.


#36 of 85 by bru on Sat Oct 18 23:28:15 2003:

dropped a cd on the floor of my car and scuffed it with my foot while driving.
It is damaged.


#37 of 85 by anderyn on Sun Oct 19 14:18:46 2003:

Which one?! Aggggk!


#38 of 85 by dbratman on Mon Oct 20 22:25:08 2003:

So I have a CD burner on my computer now, and I've tried making 
straight disc-to-disc full copies of a few of my rarer CDs as backups.

Inevitably the copy has a patch (of varying length and intensity) of 
crackling noise, sounding something like a radio station you can't 
quite pick up, starting about 5 minutes in.

I haven't had any problem with copying CD-ROMs, though, as far as I've 
been able to tell.

Any thoughts?


#39 of 85 by mcnally on Mon Oct 20 23:26:49 2003:

  1)  if you're having burning problems, consider switching to 
      a better (or sometimes simply different) brand of media.
  2)  try reducing the burn speed to 8x or under and see if that
      helps.
  3)  believe the CD-burner app when it advises you to close all
      other applications before it starts burning the disc.

  Start with those and see if your results improve.  What brand
  and speed of burner, and what software are you using?


#40 of 85 by gull on Tue Oct 21 13:57:22 2003:

4) If you continue to have problems, rip first, burn second.  When you
copy on-the-fly, especially at higher speeds, there is less the software
can do to compensate for errors.

5) Some drives simply do a poor job staying synchronized while ripping
audio.  It's a much more difficult task than reading a data CD.  Try
using a ripping app that's specifically designed to deal with difficult
situations.  I recommend Exact Audio Copy under Windows and cdparanoia
under Linux.  Both of these programs do an excellent job, even with
damaged CDs, and just as importantly they warn you if they think the
audio is degraded.


#41 of 85 by murph on Thu Oct 23 20:41:44 2003:

Getting back to the original question, I also have an iPod and love it.  I
see no real reason to get anything else, unless you can get it for free. 
(pre-iPod, I had a 64MB rio player that I got for free...)

Now that iTunes for windows has come out, I'd recommend that as your software
for cd ripping; among other advantages (such as working beautifully with the
iPod), it allows you to encode in AAC format instead of mp3.  (aac is actually
mp4, or some part of mp4, I believe?)  Ripping to AAC will let you store songs
at the same quality in a smaller size than mp3, meaning you can carry more
on your iPod (or hard drive).  And iTunes is a free download and easy to use.

I've never been able to hear the difference between cds and mp3s (even on
headphones) except when listening to classical strings.  Thus, I'm not going
to opine on which encoder gives the best sound quality--I'm recommending
iTunes based on features and ease of use.


#42 of 85 by dbratman on Fri Oct 24 07:07:32 2003:

Thanks, Mike and David.  I haven't gotten to the point of figuring out 
how to rip CDs yet.  I'm sure it's pretty simple, but two things are 
stopping me: the desire not to load my hard disc up with files which I 
will then forget what they are, and a rapidly growing passion for not 
learning any more new procedures of any kind than I have to.  I'm old 
enough now that my brain is full.

I'd have to crawl under the desk to see what brand of burner I have, 
but the software is something called Easy CD Creator 5 Basic, which is 
what came with the burner.  I might be interested in the features of 
Exact Audio Copy; is this something that can be found in software 
stores?  And can it copy data CDs too?


#43 of 85 by mcnally on Fri Oct 24 07:31:37 2003:

  I'm pretty sure that if you want eac you'll be better off downloading it.
  I won't guarantee that you won't find it on a shareware-type collection
  for sale in a store but it's something you'd typically get by downloading
  rather than finding it on a store shelf.  

  It's only for extracting digital audio from music CDs.  You would typically
  use it in conjunction with another program (such as "lame") which would
  encode the audio data you extracted into a compressed format like MP3.
  The chief virtue of eac and cdparanoia is that they are very particular
  about doing the best job possible of extracting the audio -- not something
  you can say about every audio-ripper program..  


#44 of 85 by gull on Fri Oct 24 13:29:49 2003:

Also, EAC has the option to query CDDB for the track names, then name
the files appropriately.  This helps combat the "lots of big files that
I've forgotten what they are" effect. :>

If all you're interested in is copying CDs, see if your CD copying
program has an option to do a "buffered" copy, instead of an
"on-the-fly" copy.  That will rip the CD to a file on your hard drive,
then burn a new CD from the file, instead of trying to do both at once.
 It has a much better chance of working well that way, but it's slower
so most programs default to on-the-fly copies.


#45 of 85 by keesan on Fri Oct 24 14:39:32 2003:

How much hard drive space is needed to copy a music CD (for the buffer)?
We were just given a computer with a 6G hard drive.


#46 of 85 by mcnally on Fri Oct 24 17:35:25 2003:

  About 700Mbytes maximum for an 80 minute disc.


#47 of 85 by goose on Wed Oct 29 02:01:22 2003:

EAC is a great program, and can help read data (music data) off discs that
are sometimes unplayable in regualr CD players.


#48 of 85 by dbratman on Wed Oct 29 17:10:10 2003:

>I'm pretty sure that if you want eac you'll be better off downloading 
>it.

So how do I find it?  Google for it?  And then how do I know the sites 
I find are legitimate?  I'm not putting any executable program on my 
computer unless it comes from a reliable source, and web sites I know 
nothing about don't count as reliable sources.

>You would typically use it in conjunction with another program (such 
>as "lame")

Not ANOTHER program?!  I'm having enough trouble convincing myself I 
want the one.

>which would encode the audio data you extracted into a compressed 
>format like MP3.

No, no, I listen to classical music: I do NOT want a compressed format 
and the accompanying degradation of sound quality.

>Also, EAC has the option to query CDDB for the track names, then name
>the files appropriately.

A friend of mine with a Mac has ITunes, or whatever Steve Jobs's music-
for-sale biz is called, but instead of buying tunes he uses it to 
organize his music files on his computer.  What intrigues me about it 
is that if he puts a music CD in his computer, the program looks it up 
in some database somewhere and displays a track list.

What I would like to do is query that database.  I don't want to get 
music from it, but if it's as complete as it looks, I would like to be 
able to find out what things have been recorded and who's recorded them.


#49 of 85 by goose on Wed Oct 29 17:32:07 2003:

Get EAC from www.exactaudiocopy.de

If you want to rip uncompressed data from your CDs, then EAC is all you;ll
need.


#50 of 85 by micklpkl on Wed Oct 29 18:55:55 2003:

In addressing the latter part of resp:48, I would guess that your friend's
software is using either the cddb or the freedb music database. I do know that
Exact Audio Copy (EAC) now uses the freedb database, available at:
   http://www.freedb.org/freedb_search.php

fwiw, I have downloaded and installed EAC from the website given in
resp:49.


#51 of 85 by mcnally on Wed Oct 29 19:10:15 2003:

  Or you can use FLAC, which is another audio compression protocol.
  Unlike MP3, however, FLAC is not "lossy" -- i.e. if you compress
  something and then uncompress it you should wind up with exactly
  the same collection of bits you started from..

  When people mention "CDDB lookup" for getting track names, they're talking
  about the same type of service, though not necessarily from the exact
  same database (unfortunately there was a schism a few years ago when a
  commercial company bought up the original CDDB and changed the license
  terms so that a lot of free software was unable to continue using it.
  So most commercial packages use the original CDDB, while many of the
  freeware tools use FreeDB.)


#52 of 85 by jep on Wed Oct 29 19:20:48 2003:

Are .avi files compressed?  I've seen full-length animated Disney 
movies which occupied 700 MB or less of disk; are animated movies just 
inherently smaller than other movies?


#53 of 85 by scott on Wed Oct 29 19:24:15 2003:

http://www.allmusic.com is a great resource for tracking down artists and
albums.


#54 of 85 by mcnally on Wed Oct 29 20:33:08 2003:

  In my opinion, the All Music Guide ( http://www.allmusic.com )
  is one of the best sites on the web.  A huge amount of information
  all of which is extensively cross-referenced, vastly improving
  the usefulness of the whole collection.



#55 of 85 by goose on Wed Oct 29 21:04:04 2003:

changes are a-comin' on down the line....

RE#52 - Yes, AVI's are generally compressed.


#56 of 85 by gull on Wed Oct 29 21:44:18 2003:

AVI is, in fact, just a structure for video files.  Internally AVIs can use
just about any compression encoding, or no compression at all, for video and
audio.  There are at least half a dozen compression schemes in common use,
though at at given time one or two are the "favorites".  Currently DIVX and
XVID are the most common for bootleg movies.

This can make AVIs a bit frustrating, since there's no clear answer to the
question "what software do I need to play an AVI?"


#57 of 85 by drew on Thu Oct 30 01:41:39 2003:

I have a digicam which records video in files with an .AVI extension. When
I try to play these in either Win98's media player or the media player on a
Sharp PDA, the software complains that the required decompression plugin
or whatever is not available. How to fix this?


#58 of 85 by gull on Thu Oct 30 13:52:48 2003:

Find out what compression format your digicam is using, and install the
codec for it.  Did the digicam come with any software on CD?  It may be
on there.  You might also try the manufacturer's website.

Alternatively, if you're using a really old version of Windows Media
Player, you may want to upgrade.  The newer versions seem to support
more formats, and are better about downloading codecs they don't have
installed for you.


#59 of 85 by dbratman on Thu Oct 30 17:47:13 2003:

Maybe I don't need EAC, as I have now tried ripping CDs using my 
existing program, and copying them on to a new CD, and it seems to work 
pretty well.  A few of the features are awkward, though, so maybe I 
will investigate further.  My existing program offers two file formats, 
WAV which it says is uncompressed, and another format also beginning 
with the letter W which it says is even more compressed than MP3.

So I tried this allmusic.com and first looked up Steeleye Span, my 
favorite folk-rock band.  The bio is about 8 years out of date, their 
most recent new album (released in '02) is missing, some repackagings 
are listed and some aren't, some albums that are listed don't have 
track listings, and the band's "tones" are characterized as "Reverent, 
Gentle, Organic, Restrained, Intimate" which is ridiculous.  Even the 
bio knows better than that.

Then I tried some obscure modern classical composers on the associated 
www.allclassical.com and was somewhat more impressed.  For Baroque 
composers, somewhat less so.



#60 of 85 by mcnally on Thu Oct 30 19:42:58 2003:

  All Music Guide lists a live album for Steeleye Span in 2002 and
  one video, plus several 2003 releases.  

  As far as the "tones" section goes, those are compiled from a
  consensus of reader assessments of the band, not the editorial
  opinions of the site.


#61 of 85 by tpryan on Sun Nov 2 20:31:54 2003:

        I use Audiograbber for getting CD tracks to .wav files.  The
1.82 version will now look at your disk first, to see if it has CD-text
and use that for the suggestted track/file names.  Audiograbber (find
via google) also recommends you get the LAME DLL mp3 encoder file and
install it in the same directory as the audiograbber .exe file and it
will give a very good graphic interface to that command line program.
Audiograbber can also do the FreeDB/ CDDB lookups.  You may have to 
do the lookups, then disconnect from the internet before procedding
with the ripping to make sure you don't get a CPU use glich.  It does
give various warnings for possible speed/CPU problems.  It also lets
you do things like put it into 'silence hating' mode, cutting the two
seconds between tracks down to a half second or so.  For stand alone
tracks, I would recommend some silence before and after (I edit to 
1/3 second before, 2/3 second after--that 25 frames and 50 frames of
the 75 frames per second, the unit of time that a CD sees).  Okay,
now I can talk about AG being able to be set to grab at x amount of
frames (or frame number before) a CD track mark, that can help
on CD tracks that might be a little mis-tracked, or on those songs
that occupy two tracks on a CD, but sound better as one MP3 file.

        I have bunches of Cd-Rs filled with mp3s, 98% of them being
Dr. Demento shows.

        I have both a portable DAT recorder and a home deck.  The
portable needs repair.  Anyone know someone good at that?

        My RioVolt portable CD/mp3-CD player did undergo a 
firmware upgrade.  It now can resume play where a disk stopped.  IN
fact, I think it can keep track of up to 10 CDs and the resume
point.
        Do any of the newer, cheaper CD/mp3-CD playes allow resume
where you left off?  Be able to access the .m3u file as a programmable
feature?  Easily search within the file in additon to skip to next
file?


#62 of 85 by keesan on Mon Nov 3 00:06:29 2003:

What is your DAT recorder not doing?  Jim likes to fix things that are
mechanical and tapes are mechanical.  The rubber parts wear out.


#63 of 85 by gull on Mon Nov 3 14:13:13 2003:

My Jensen MP-3310 in-dash MP3 player remembers where I left off in the
current CD, but it can't remember more than one stopping point.  If I
eject the disc it forgets.


#64 of 85 by mynxcat on Mon Nov 3 15:23:28 2003:

This response has been erased.



#65 of 85 by goose on Tue Nov 4 01:59:12 2003:

RE#61 --  www.nxtgentech.com  is the only place I trust with my DAT repairs.


#66 of 85 by dbratman on Sat Nov 8 06:25:47 2003:

Mike McNally wrote,

"All Music Guide lists a live album for Steeleye Span in 2002 and one 
video, plus several 2003 releases."

Nevertheless, as I wrote earlier, their most recent new album (released 
in '02) is missing.  The recent stuff that is listed is ephemera.

"As far as the 'tones' section goes, those are compiled from a 
consensus of reader assessments of the band, not the editorial  
opinions of the site."

Which makes it even more bizarre that they could be characterized 
as "Reverent, Gentle, Organic, Restrained, Intimate."  Some individual 
bozo who'd never heard the band and had a preconceived notion of folk 
music might have come up with that, but not any group of knowledgable 
listeners.  I suspect either a very small sampling of readers and/or 
the kind of options checklist that never has the phrasings you want.

If you want to defend this hapless entry, you'll have to do better than 
that.


#67 of 85 by willcome on Thu Nov 27 08:12:50 2003:

whore.


#68 of 85 by mcnally on Wed Dec 31 05:46:22 2003:

  Since this is the audio-storage discussion item, I have a question
  for the minidisc users out there (e.g. Scott..)

  My nephew, who covets my iPod, was lobbying for an MP3 player for
  Christmas.  What he and his mother (my sister) selected turned out
  to be a Sony "NetMD" MiniDisc recorder (model MZ-NF610)

  I've known satisfied minidisc owners before, but have never used one
  myself and am not quite sure what I'm supposed to be able to do with
  this one.  To begin with, the packaging for this player claims to
  support MP3, WMW, and WAV as well as Sony's native ATRAC format but
  so far I've been unable to put anything but ATRAC on disc using the
  software provided.  Looking more closely at the packaging, although
  the large print says "MP3 / WMA / WAV compatible" the small print
  reads "Plays back ATRAC3 audio, supports MP3, WMA, WAV".  What does
  that mean?  Will it store and play MP3s or does "supports MP3" mean
  that it converts MP3 files to ATRAC before storing them on the minidisc?

  Also, although the packaging claims "5 hours of music on one minidisc"
  the discs are rated as 74 or 80 minute discs and I was able to transfer
  (at a rough guess) 150 minutes of music on my first attempt.  Again
  reading the fine print, I see something about "LP2" and "LP4" modes.
  What's the difference and what's the approximate capacity of an 80 min
  disc in megabytes?

  Finally, I had a pretty negative reaction to the software provided.
  I'm not going to have to keep this gadget but as the family techie
  I *am* going to be expected to make it work and to provide remote
  tech support for the life of the device.  I guess what I'm looking
  for is some assurance that minidisc is still worth putting some time
  into and that I shouldn't just tell my nephew to take the thing back
  to the store and get a hard-drive based player like an iPod or a
  Dell DJ (btw, has anyone used one of those yet?)


#69 of 85 by other on Wed Dec 31 15:46:07 2003:

Cynically, I'd suggest that "supports x,y,z formats" means it is 
possible to record those formats on the disc for storage or use in 
other devices, but not necessarily to play them back on that device.

Just a guess.



#70 of 85 by mcnally on Wed Dec 31 16:48:33 2003:

  Yes, that's what I'm wondering..  Unless you can really store several
  hours' worth of MP3s on a disc I'm going to recommend to Ramsey that
  he return this player.


#71 of 85 by tod on Wed Dec 31 18:51:44 2003:

This response has been erased.



#72 of 85 by mynxcat on Wed Dec 31 19:03:26 2003:

This response has been erased.



#73 of 85 by tod on Wed Dec 31 19:35:08 2003:

This response has been erased.



#74 of 85 by mcnally on Thu Jan 1 04:05:54 2004:

  I don't know what Ramsey will prefer but when I encode my own MP3s I 
  generally use LAME with the "--alt-preset=standard" command-line flag
  which encodes variable bit-rate MP3s that average about 160kbps. 
  I can typically get 8-10 hours' worth of music on one 80 minute CD
  at that quality, so ~5 hours' worth of music on one Minidisc doesn't 
  seem at all farfetched to me..

  He could have an MP3/CD device that plays MP3s from CD-Rs for less
  money (plus the media is about 1/10 the cost) but the CD-based devices
  can't match an important attraction of either the minidisc-based or
  the harddrive-based players -- pocket-sized form factor.


#75 of 85 by scott on Thu Jan 1 18:48:08 2004:

I've got one of those NetMD recorders, but I've never tried using the
software.  My guess is that it's possible to play stuff over the USB/spdif
adapter to the MD, and it'll record that content in one of the ATRAC formats.
The USB/spdif (stereo digital optical link) that came with mine basically
became an audio output under OS X and would likely do the same thing under
Windows.

The standard ATRAC format is 74/80 minutes stereo.  Mono mode has been around
for a long time and allowed double the capacity.  The LP2 and LP4 modes are
more drastic compression, and reviews I've read indicate that they are roughly
like using various MP3 quality levels.

I'd recommend checking out http://www.minidisc.org for a plethora of useful
information.


#76 of 85 by mcnally on Thu Jan 1 22:30:27 2004:

  Thanks, I guess I'll do that, though I'm visiting with family at the
  moment and browsing is painful on this computer (old Mac + AOL = bad
  combination <shudder>)


#77 of 85 by scott on Fri Jan 2 03:52:41 2004:

There's actually a NetMD software FAQ, and the site is mostly text, so give
it a try.  The FAQ was pretty interesting... not sure my unit can do the full
stuff, but it involves DRM from some sources.


#78 of 85 by krj on Fri Jan 2 19:20:00 2004:

I'll just chime in to wish Mike good luck...  Leslie and I have only 
used MD as a tape recorder replacement for recording live music and 
radio.   I've seen the MP3/MD machines touted but I have no idea 
how they work.


#79 of 85 by mcnally on Fri Jan 2 23:11:11 2004:

  Consulting the site that Scott mentioned, it seems fairly clear that
  the wording "supports MP3/WMA/WAV" on the front of the package is 
  misleading (probably deliberately so.)  Apparently none of the current
  Minidisc player/recorder devices play audio in anything but various
  revisions of Sony's ATRAC formats, meaning any music transferred to the
  minidisc device has to be converted and, in the case of existing digital
  music files, the software to do so insists upon doing so only through some
  sort of "check out" / "check in" DRM regimen that I wouldn't care to put
  up with.

  Also, the Minidiscs are much lower capacity than I thought they were --
  about 160Mbyte per disc -- and the touted "5 hour play time" (also 
  mentioned quite prominently on the package) only applies to files encoded
  as LP4, the lowest-quality ATRAC format.

  In the end, I wound up surprised by how uncompetitive the devices are 
  and really bothered by the poor quality of the software and the cumbersome
  DRM scheme it apparently enforces.  I'm recommending to Ramsey that he 
  return the product to the point of purchase, citing its inability to do
  most of the things the package seems to promise, and save a little more for
  a hard-drived based player such as the iPod or Dell's new DJ.  Supposedly
  Apple may be announcing new, lower-capacity, lower-price iPods at MacWorld
  next week.


#80 of 85 by gull on Sun Jan 4 01:22:57 2004:

Minidisc is going to be the 8-track tape of the digital world.  Avoid 
it; it's a proprietary format that I don't think will last.


#81 of 85 by scott on Sun Jan 4 05:36:42 2004:

I dunno; for live recording it's wonderful.  But if a recording iPod came out,
I might go for it...


#82 of 85 by eprom on Sat Mar 27 02:41:14 2004:

hmmm...I noticed that a real music CD can stand more abuse and 
scratches than a CD-RW...or maybe it just seems that way.

anyways, my question is: does anyone else use a Sharpie to
label their pirated music collection?



#83 of 85 by mcnally on Sat Mar 27 07:55:24 2004:

  I use a fine-point Sharpie to label when I make a mix CD or
  a backup for the car.  Does that count?


#84 of 85 by slynne on Sat Mar 27 13:12:15 2004:

I use Sharpies for all kinds of things including labeling CD's :) Those 
pens are the best. 


#85 of 85 by tpryan on Sat Mar 27 19:08:00 2004:

        I like using Sharpies, but also found Fellows CD Markers to 
have a very consistent fine point.
        Black for audio CDs
        Blue for data CDs
        Green (the color of money) for DVDs


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