Grex Agora47 Conference

Item 216: US bans anti-war countries from Iraq deals

Entered by sj2 on Thu Dec 11 19:03:56 2003:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1104298,00.html
50 responses total.
#1 of 50 by twenex on Thu Dec 11 19:06:29 2003:

I'm sure we're all falling over ourselves in surprise.

#2 of 50 by klg on Thu Dec 11 19:10:08 2003:

Snivle, whine, boo-hoo.  
Whadda buncha crybabies.

#3 of 50 by twenex on Thu Dec 11 19:12:30 2003:

Repeat #1.

#4 of 50 by remmers on Thu Dec 11 20:21:52 2003:

Even Bush realizes it was a dumb move.

#5 of 50 by sj2 on Thu Dec 11 20:29:42 2003:

The $18 billion is US grant to Iraq. It is not a loan and it is not 
money earned from selling Iraqi oil so US, technically, should have all 
the rights to decide how they spend it.

Politically and diplomatically? Well, thats a different ballgame.

#6 of 50 by jmsaul on Fri Dec 12 01:19:50 2003:

I'd rather not be spending it on that bullshit at all.

#7 of 50 by rcurl on Fri Dec 12 02:25:09 2003:

If it is a grant to Iraq, Iraq should solicit and accept the bids. If it
is a grant to the so-called coalition, I suppose they should solicit and
accept the bids. However if they accept bids only from among themselves,
they are engaging in a conflict of interest. 

It is partly very amusing. Who among the coalition are able to bid? 
It consists of 48 countries - so I hope that, say, the Marshall Islands
will get their share. Actually, though, only a few countries have the
economic level to bid on major contracts, so most of the coalition are
being intentionally excluded. They shouldn't be much happier than the
non-coalition countries. The major parties that will get the gravy are,
therefore, among the following: Australia, Italy, Japan, Netherlands, Poland,
Spain (?), UK, and, of course USA. Halliburton must be smiling from ear to
ear.

#8 of 50 by krj on Fri Dec 12 05:33:13 2003:

"And by the way, all you countries who we barred from bidding on the 
Iraq rebuilding contracts, we're coming to you today to ask for your 
help in forgiving all the debts Iraq owes you."

#9 of 50 by sj2 on Fri Dec 12 08:31:41 2003:

Russia already refused to forgive the $8 billion loan after the Bush 
administration announced the exclusion. So much for helping KBR and 
Iraq.

#10 of 50 by bhoward on Fri Dec 12 12:54:31 2003:

8 billion is a lot of money, particularly for Russia.  It would have
take a decently sized piece of the action in Iraq to compensate that.

#11 of 50 by remmers on Fri Dec 12 15:22:13 2003:

Re #8:  Right, what a bunch of klutzes.

#12 of 50 by other on Fri Dec 12 15:49:24 2003:

Well, when you have no subtlety, all your tools begin to look a lot 
like weapons you can use.

#13 of 50 by gull on Fri Dec 12 15:52:22 2003:

Re resp:8: Yeah, even I was amazed by the diplomatic tone-deafness being
demonstrated by the Bush administration.  You'd think they'd at least
have had the sense to ask for loan forgiveness *before* slapping
everyone in the face...

#14 of 50 by klg on Fri Dec 12 17:32:41 2003:

You may wish to consider that there is a significant school of thought 
which holds that the new government of Iraq is not required to abide by 
the terms of agreements (such as loans) which were made by the deposed 
government.  We are sure that a large consideration that went into the 
loan negotiations was risk inherent in being repaid, should the 
despotic regime be deposed.  The lenders ought not be shocked if they 
do not receive repayment.  (And they ought to have realized that being 
on the wrong side of the war would not have helped, either!)

#15 of 50 by klg on Fri Dec 12 17:38:23 2003:

(You lefties oufht to note that opposition to the war was not a 
necessary condition to being excluded from the general contractor list -
--  Israel is not on it.)

#16 of 50 by gull on Fri Dec 12 18:47:41 2003:

Canada, however, is excluded, in spite of the fact that they've made
substantial contributions to the rebuilding process and had been assured
they wouldn't be excluded.

#17 of 50 by tod on Fri Dec 12 18:48:30 2003:

This response has been erased.


#18 of 50 by happyboy on Fri Dec 12 20:03:40 2003:

what a horrible place!!!

#19 of 50 by mcnally on Fri Dec 12 22:17:05 2003:

  re #17:  which is ironic, since they probably invented beer in
  (what is now) Iraq..

#20 of 50 by happyboy on Sat Dec 13 03:09:18 2003:

they probably *invented* it in south america too...and lots of
other places.

#21 of 50 by bru on Sat Dec 13 04:17:19 2003:

 We had an interesting talk about beer today, how it originated, where it
originated, asnd the concensus was Iraq.  Of course it may have been created
independently at other places and times.

#22 of 50 by willcome on Sat Dec 13 04:32:20 2003:

(they drink beer in Iraq)

#23 of 50 by russ on Sat Dec 13 05:31:21 2003:

Re #14:  The term of art is "odious debts".

#24 of 50 by lk on Sat Dec 13 08:12:55 2003:

01:16   Saudi U.S. envoy: protest of restriction of reconstruction contracts
        by countries opposed to Iraq war is `chutzpah` 

00:31   Bush says hopes opponents of Iraq war - France, Germany, Russia will
        help Iraqi people by wiping former regime`s debts

#25 of 50 by sj2 on Sat Dec 13 16:32:58 2003:

Hehehehe .... yeah sure.

#26 of 50 by rcurl on Sat Dec 13 18:38:02 2003:

And France, Germany and Russia can say that it would help them to erase
Iraq's debts if they could win some reconstruction contracts....

#27 of 50 by khamsun on Sat Dec 13 18:58:14 2003:

Re 17-22:
damn! I realize now that "Bush" is a trade name for a beer !
I'm now in Flanders, drinking X-mas Bush beer, an ale of Dubuisson
brewery in Belgium (no connections with that sort of tasteless Bush
liquid from the us...). Belgian beer rules!

#28 of 50 by krj on Sat Dec 13 20:59:29 2003:

Re: beer in Iraq :: actually I might expect that beer was available
in Iraq, at least up to the first Gulf War.  Saddam ran a secular 
state, only turning to Islam as a rallying point in that war, and 
Iraq has a Christian population who were not bound by religious
restrictions on alcohol.  I don't have any direct knowledge, though.

#29 of 50 by tpryan on Sat Dec 13 21:23:11 2003:

        Look at what was saved:
        Party in power business as usual would be to keep the 
awards secret, let few in on the bids anyway.  Wait for the 
invesitagtion, the secret tapes turn their faces red.  Truth
might get out anyway.
        Seems like a deal to me.

#30 of 50 by lk on Sun Dec 14 07:27:01 2003:

So I'm guessing that the Bush team is using the contracts as a
negotiating chip.  Some debts will be forgiven, some contracts
will be awarded....

#31 of 50 by twenex on Sun Dec 14 15:18:18 2003:

Ken - Yes, Iraq was sa secular *state*, but the majority of people are
Muslim. Most European countries are secular (as indeed is the US), but
in all those countries Christian religious festivals form the backbone
of the festive season(s). I should imagine that the same would happen
in a secular Iraq, whether ruled by Saddam or run democratically (if
that'll ever happen).

#32 of 50 by sj2 on Sun Dec 14 15:38:24 2003:

Count out Saddamm now ;)

#33 of 50 by gull on Sun Dec 14 16:18:08 2003:

Yup, he was found cowering in a hole in the ground.  Good riddance. 
Hopefully this will take some of the punch out of the opposition.

Now, if we could just capture Osama (anyone remember him?) we'd really
have something...

#34 of 50 by happyboy on Sun Dec 14 18:35:30 2003:

yeah, THAT would be impressive.

#35 of 50 by jmsaul on Sun Dec 14 19:25:33 2003:

Re #33:  Cardinal Ashcroft will get you for implying that Saddam didn't
         blow up the WTC!

#36 of 50 by scott on Sun Dec 14 20:15:55 2003:

Still waiting on the WMDs we were promised.

#37 of 50 by tpryan on Sun Dec 14 21:17:13 2003:

        Okay, we tell Sadam that America will not execute him if
he cooperats in finding stashes of weapons.  Then money.  Then
continuing opposition leaders.
        Then we let new Iraq execute him.

#38 of 50 by mary on Sun Dec 14 22:57:36 2003:

So if he was telling the truth all along, and Iraq no longer has 
WMD, he gets executed.  Sounds like something most American's
could support.

The man needs to be tried in Iraq by Iraqis.  With Iraqis 
making the rules.

#39 of 50 by klg on Mon Dec 15 04:02:21 2003:

Then, he should be tried in Kuwait for the invasion and subsequent 
crimes.  Then, he should be tried in Israel for firing scud missiles 
into its cities.  Then, let the Kurds have a shot at him.

#40 of 50 by sj2 on Mon Dec 15 04:49:26 2003:

*Yawn*

#41 of 50 by sj2 on Mon Dec 15 04:50:07 2003:

So, which is the next media circus in town?

#42 of 50 by sj2 on Mon Dec 15 04:52:20 2003:

Hehehe, what if he pleads insanity? Now that shouldn't be difficult to 
prove. ;)

Infact, the US/Allies have already painted him as a psychopath/maniac. 
Go, ask Bush. "He tried to kill my daddy"!!!

#43 of 50 by drew on Mon Dec 15 07:26:55 2003:

Easy. Give him a lobotomy.

#44 of 50 by other on Mon Dec 15 11:28:25 2003:

Cut off his hands and his tongue and set him free.

#45 of 50 by rcurl on Mon Dec 15 16:13:20 2003:

On the original subject...it finally occurred to me that it would not be
*countries* that would be bidding on Iraq reconstruction proposals, but
corporations, most of which are international in their dealings. It does
not seem logical for Bush to think it matters in what country they have
their main offices. That has nothing to do with the politics of the
countries, to which he objects.

#46 of 50 by sj2 on Mon Dec 15 16:24:20 2003:

Re #45, :) It just gets weirder by the day.

#47 of 50 by jp2 on Mon Dec 15 16:50:57 2003:

This response has been erased.


#48 of 50 by klg on Mon Dec 15 17:11:04 2003:

Mr. saddam cannot be insane.  Proof??  He doesn't have a grex log on 
i.d., does he?

#49 of 50 by gull on Mon Dec 15 17:23:43 2003:

And here I thought Republicans felt free trade was a good thing. ;>

#50 of 50 by lk on Tue Dec 16 00:05:39 2003:

Rer#39: klg, you missed the correct answer. So far it's not the Kuwaitis,
Israelis, or Kurds who are lining up to try Saddam:

14:08   Iran preparing criminal complaint to present at international court
        against Saddam over 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war 

I say, let the Madan (Marsh Arabs) enter the arena, too.

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