Grex Agora47 Conference

Item 214: Election year approaches - the solution to the education problem.

Entered by pvn on Tue Dec 9 08:49:48 2003:

As we are approaching another primary season in addition to a major
election cycle I thought I would reveal a little known secret solution
to the problem of "education reform" that has been a well used and
abused political stocking horse for about half a century or more.  Its a
secret solution that nobody who has a vested interest wants to consider.
Its very simple and doesn't involve complicated voucher systems or lots
more tax funded initiatives - or even unfunded initiatives or
standardized testing.  And its very simple in that it already has a vast
body of common law behind it.  Doesn't require Supreme Court oversight
or questions of separation of church and state.  Doesn't even require
more tax dollars.  So simple you wonder why nobody supports it.

Require all employees of public school systems to send their children to
one.  

Its that simple.  

Just like many firemen or policemen are required to be residents of the
entity that pays them, require all employees of public school systems to
send their children to public school. Require those employed by the
taxpayers to consume their own work product.

29 responses total.

#1 of 29 by happyboy on Tue Dec 9 10:13:12 2003:

how would you suggest we *require* it, write a *law*?

heh, good luck attracting more teachers to the field
and solving the problem of a teacher shortage that way,
buckaroo.  you get what you pay for.

it's not the teachers who are the problem, think about it
next time your daughter spends lots of frustrating hours
preparing for some bush admin mandated *no child left behind*
standardized test...think about where the problem lies.


#2 of 29 by md on Tue Dec 9 12:11:10 2003:

In, uh, the Bush admin?  Standardized tests?  "No child left behind"?  
WHAT IS IT??


#3 of 29 by jp2 on Tue Dec 9 13:35:48 2003:

This response has been erased.



#4 of 29 by bru on Tue Dec 9 14:43:51 2003:

they were talking the other day about a district wehre the teacher was removed
in a dispute with the children in her calss, adn she was amking $75,000.00


#5 of 29 by gull on Tue Dec 9 14:48:31 2003:

jp2's experience with teachers is different from mine.  But if what he
says is true, it's probably because if you have that kind of knowledge,
you can make far more money in just about any occupation other than
teaching.  There really isn't much to attract highly qualified people to
the teaching profession.

bru's figure is an unusual case.  The average teacher salary in the U.S.
is $44,400.  It ranges from around $50,000 in California to $30,000 in
South Dakota.  Many engineering graduates have *starting* salaries
higher than that.


#6 of 29 by polygon on Tue Dec 9 15:10:22 2003:

In my experience, public school teachers have a certain loyalty to the
public schools.

On the other hand, it's not hard to imagine a situation where a child
has special needs not met by the public schools.

I remember a prominent politician who was very committed to public
education.  He was elected to a major position, moved to the capital, and
sent his son to the public schools there.  But the son had pretty bad
time.  He was targeted, beaten up by toughs day after day, and I think
they broke some bones.  Eventually, a deal was quietly worked out to send
him to a suburban school district.

Sure, it would have been easy to nail the father to the wall about this
politically.  But what the hell else could he have done?  Provide a
bodyguard and make his son even more conspicuous?

Holding kids hostage to politics has a certain appeal, especially if you
see teachers as the problem.  Maybe in the long run it might change things
for the better.  But the needs of the kids in the present need to come
first.


#7 of 29 by gelinas on Tue Dec 9 16:03:09 2003:

(I can't find the Ann Arbor salary schedule online, nor on my machine's disk
right now.  IIRC, an MA, with an additional 90 credit-hours, and ten years'
teaching experience is worth $60,000/year.  A PhD with ten year's teaching
experience approaches $70,000.  A BA and no experience is worth something like
$26,000 per year.)


#8 of 29 by gull on Tue Dec 9 16:27:28 2003:

I'm sure the market has changed over the past few years, but when I
graduated from college in 2000 a lot of my friends who had BS degrees in
engineering and no experience were starting at $60,000.  So basically,
by going into education you cut your wage-earning potential by more than
half, even if you pick a school district that pays relatively well.


#9 of 29 by gull on Tue Dec 9 16:28:33 2003:

(My little brother thinks he wants to go into teaching, and my dad is
really torn between encouraging him and pointing out to him that there's
no money in it.)


#10 of 29 by bru on Tue Dec 9 20:17:50 2003:

I wish Iwas making a salary of $40,000 at any position I have ever worked.


#11 of 29 by happyboy on Tue Dec 9 20:50:13 2003:

re9: talk him out of it.

re10:  i guess special ed let you down.


#12 of 29 by keesan on Tue Dec 9 22:00:16 2003:

Teachers get three months off in which to earn even more money.  


#13 of 29 by gelinas on Tue Dec 9 22:08:28 2003:

Not really.  They have to continue taking classes to maintain their teaching
certificates.


#14 of 29 by tod on Tue Dec 9 23:50:47 2003:

This response has been erased.



#15 of 29 by beeswing on Wed Dec 10 00:49:28 2003:

Yep. My summer vacation will not be a vacation at all. I'll be doing
summer school full time for certification.


#16 of 29 by other on Wed Dec 10 00:54:31 2003:

Bruce, the only requirements for earning a high salary are 
perseverance and intelligence.


Oh...


#17 of 29 by happyboy on Wed Dec 10 02:31:57 2003:



        8D


#18 of 29 by krj on Wed Dec 10 17:52:25 2003:

Here's a theory you can boot around:  Public schools were badly damaged
by the feminist movement.
 
Before the 1970s, teaching and nursing were among the very few professions
which were wide open for talented women.  Because the public schools
had a more-or-less captive labor supply, schools didn't have to pay 
competitive salaries -- teachers, mostly women, couldn't get into 
other, better-paying fields.   Once the rest of the economy opened
to women, education lost its hold on the supply of talented women.
 
I keep seeing solutions which I characterize as "fiat economics:" 
attempting to declare that teachers will become better.


#19 of 29 by gull on Wed Dec 10 18:53:39 2003:

Re resp:10: Anyone can become rich if they stop being lazy.  Rush
Limbaugh told me so. ;>  (No, I don't believe it either.)

Re resp:18: I think that's pretty much dead-on.


#20 of 29 by slynne on Wed Dec 10 20:36:28 2003:

Yes. The funny thing is that you often see "shortages" in both nursing 
and teaching because the powers that be arent willing to pay the new 
market wage for those fields even *years* after women started getting 
into other things. 


#21 of 29 by anderyn on Wed Dec 10 20:40:52 2003:

I don't know about perseverance and intelligence being the only prerequisites
for a high salary. I *certainly* have the intelligence, and perseverance, but
I don't make a high salary. Of course, the fact that I don't want to leave
the job I have to take a step into the unknown and probably much more
stressful world of new things has something to do with that, but I have always
felt that loyalty and stability have points in their favor as well. 


#22 of 29 by gull on Wed Dec 10 20:42:23 2003:

I'm not really sure why the free market fails in these cases.  Shouldn't
wages "automatically" rise as supply tightens?


#23 of 29 by klg on Wed Dec 10 20:52:15 2003:

(Assuming a perfectly competitive market and if the purchasers are 
willing and able to pay more.)


#24 of 29 by slynne on Wed Dec 10 21:07:22 2003:

When it comes to chronic shortages, yes...the free market should cause 
wages to rise. However, there are other solutions. In nursing you see a 
lot of duties that used to be done by registered nurses now being done 
by people with less training which in a way has reduced the demand for 
nurses. 


#25 of 29 by tod on Wed Dec 10 21:28:17 2003:

This response has been erased.



#26 of 29 by twenex on Wed Dec 10 21:30:41 2003:

Y'all forgot the Old Boy Network.


#27 of 29 by flem on Thu Dec 11 19:52:27 2003:

Remember, public school teachers are paid from public school budgets,
which are set by elected officials....  who keep cutting them to pay off
their special interests.  In traditional supply and demand economics,
when demand goes up, the amount of money that is (potentially) available
goes up.  That doesn't happen here.  
  Or maybe demand hasn't gone up enough yet.  Maybe in order for demand
to really affect the supply of money available for paying teachers,
educational conditions will have to get so bad that voters will force
politicians to actually pay attention to education.


#28 of 29 by gelinas on Thu Dec 11 19:58:10 2003:

"[School budges] are set by elected officials....  who keep cutting them
to pay off their special interests."

So that's why the State of Michigan is cutting the amounts allocated to
education, both k-12 schools and colleges and universities?


#29 of 29 by gull on Fri Dec 12 15:48:00 2003:

Re resp:27: I think it's more likely that bad conditions will be used as
an excuse to get rid of public schools altogether.


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