Grex Agora47 Conference

Item 184: Self-bugging systems.

Entered by gull on Thu Nov 20 15:51:20 2003:

An appeals court recently rejected the FBI's attempt to use a
navigation/roadside assitance system (probably On*Star's competitor,
Tele-Aid) to eavesdrop on a suspect, but only after the FBI had listened
for 30 days.  It was rejected because using the system this way blocked
its normal function, so in theory if the system were designed
differently this could be legal.  The article is here:
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/7491

A security expert I talked to once referred to things like On*Star,
cordless phones, and wireless microphones as "self-bugging systems"
because they make it easy for anyone who wants to listen in on you --
you've planted the bug yourself.  I'm not sure people think about the
privacy implications enough when they buy into this kind of technology.
27 responses total.

#1 of 27 by gelinas on Thu Nov 20 17:15:36 2003:

I certainly do, and those (un)fortunate enough to be within range of my
voice when an On*Star commercial comes on have been made aware as well.
(I've even mentioned it in other contexts, when the opportunity arises.)

If On*Star can track my car *after* it's been stolen, it can track it
*before* it's been stolen, too.


#2 of 27 by glenda on Thu Nov 20 18:09:21 2003:

Gee, Joe, it sounds like your house sounds like our house.  STeve and I gag
when those commercials come on.


#3 of 27 by happyboy on Thu Nov 20 19:34:47 2003:

my wife and i scream at them as well.


#4 of 27 by albaugh on Thu Nov 20 20:33:23 2003:

Only the truly paranoid...


#5 of 27 by remmers on Thu Nov 20 22:04:26 2003:

I choose to be silently indignant.


#6 of 27 by twenex on Thu Nov 20 22:33:43 2003:

"What do you give the man who suspects everyone?"


#7 of 27 by drew on Fri Nov 21 01:37:25 2003:

Re #4: Better paranoid than destroyed.


#8 of 27 by happyboy on Fri Nov 21 02:13:01 2003:

r4: or those that live in the land of ashkkkroft.


#9 of 27 by pvn on Fri Nov 21 07:23:16 2003:

THe question is not if I am paranoid, the question is, am I paranoid
enough.


#10 of 27 by tsty on Fri Nov 21 09:13:28 2003:

becoming a voluntary , seduced, ward of the state has a seductive appeal.


#11 of 27 by albaugh on Fri Nov 21 17:59:21 2003:

Yeah, life these days is just one Orwellian terror...


#12 of 27 by sj2 on Fri Nov 21 18:11:07 2003:

This is no surprise. Your cellphone can be turned into a bugging device 
if the your service provider's engineer wishes so. The protocol allows 
for the phone to be turned *on* in order to  eavesdrop on conversations 
within the phone's vicinity.
Lesson: Don't scream at that support engineer at the call-centre when 
your SP overbills you ;) You don't know whom you might be pissing off.

Technology has entered daily lives so fast that its possible abuses 
were totally overlooked.


#13 of 27 by other on Sat Nov 22 03:49:47 2003:

"support engineer"?  Is that supposed to be a joke?


#14 of 27 by sj2 on Sat Nov 22 08:38:39 2003:

Whats funny about *support engineer*?


#15 of 27 by carson on Sat Nov 22 16:27:39 2003:

(it's funny that a service provider actually has support engineers.)


#16 of 27 by jep on Sat Nov 22 22:29:21 2003:

You've probably never talked to a "support engineer" in your life when 
calling a phone number to obtain home end user help.  The title would 
imply they have an engineering degree.  "Support engineers" travel 
from site to site, doing hands-on analysis to determine the cause of 
difficult problems for other corporations, or more likely, work behind 
the scenes to help on-site techs who do that.

When you talk to a support rep on the phone for any type of consumer 
assistance, you're probably talking to someone making $8 per hour in 
an entry level job.  If they seem unusually competent, they might be 
making $10-12 per hour and are probably in a union.  When they 
say "let me check that out", it probably means they're in their first 
few weeks on the job and need to ask someone else for an answer.  It 
could mean they're looking for an answer in a database.

The people I call when I have (not infrequent) problems with Cingular 
Wireless are certainly not engineers.  They're all right; they care 
about my problems, and know about basic issues.  Pretty often, if I 
were to call back and state my problem to someone else, I'd get a 
completely different answer, though.

I work in software support.  From time to time, an employer calls me 
a "support engineer", but I'm no engineer or anything resembling one.


#17 of 27 by other on Sat Nov 22 23:19:30 2003:

My point was that the notion of an actual engineer with the ability 
and authority to turn your cell-phone into a bugging device being in 
a position to provide customer support to people pissed off and 
dealing with a call center is patently ridiculous.

But then, this is far too deep a discussion of what I'm sure was an 
offhand remark anyway.


#18 of 27 by sj2 on Sun Nov 23 05:58:27 2003:

:) Yes, I can understand that.

I was referring to situations where someone who actually understands 
how the damn thing works has to come on the phone instead of your 
friendly neighbourhood support rep. Example is, I was trying to setup 
the WAP service on my cell when the SP had just launched it. The call 
centre rep had no idea what I was talking about. Other times I had to 
talk to a support engineer was trying out GPRS, VPN over GPRS, 
checking the feasibility of using GPRS with portable lottery machines 
etc etc.


#19 of 27 by scott on Sun Nov 23 14:08:16 2003:

First-line support reps have a database of problems & solutions, as well as
a few simple rules like rebooting for the first fix.  If they can't figure
it out you might get escalated to an actual engineer.


#20 of 27 by remmers on Sun Nov 23 14:47:54 2003:

(Programmers without engineering degrees quite commonly call themselves
"software engineers".)


#21 of 27 by other on Sun Nov 23 17:00:04 2003:

Yes, but those who design as well as code their software are 
actually engineering something, which is not something I would say 
of someone who staffs a support call center.


#22 of 27 by sj2 on Mon Nov 24 05:46:07 2003:

Software engineer is different from software programmer. A programmer 
may not necessarily engineer software.

A support guy might be an engineer by educational qualification.


#23 of 27 by other on Mon Nov 24 06:05:09 2003:

a CALL CENTER support staffer who is a qualified engineer is under-
employed.


#24 of 27 by sj2 on Mon Nov 24 08:11:59 2003:

Certainly.


#25 of 27 by jep on Mon Nov 24 15:28:51 2003:

I have worked with people in support positions who have master's 
degrees, but no one with a degree in engineering.  One of my co-
workers, once, had an MBA.  Boy, was he ever underemployed.


#26 of 27 by willcome on Mon Nov 24 19:12:14 2003:

whore.


#27 of 27 by willcome on Thu Nov 27 09:41:03 2003:

?!

whore.


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