So, there is no assault on christianity in this country? How about the largest school district in the nation banning nativity scenes from schools for christmas, yet encouraging the display of Jewish, Islamic, and Kwanzaa on their holidays? Yes, we are talking about New York. New York, that wonderful melting pot of humanity where all things are encouraged, has banned any suggestion that Christ might be an historical being and any religious display celebrating the holiday of his birth. Only non secular items denotign christmas will be allowed. Christmas trees and Santa Claus. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29942 Happy Ramadan Happy Hannakah Happy Kwanzaa Merry Chri.... Opps, no, sorry. Don't go there Happy Holidays!74 responses total.
It's meshugganeh.
I see no reasons to permit the display of Menorrahs or "Stars and Crescent" in public schools. This, as well as not displaying Christian symbolism, would not be "assault" on any religions. I would consider appropriate a single consolidated display of all religions and philosophies that wish to participate, if they are all given equal space and prominance, as part of a social studies course project.
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r0: is kwaanza a *religious* celebration?
It's seems double standards are becoming esponentially more popular.
This is not a double standard and it is not discrimination. The policy described in the article is borne out of ignorance (of non-Christian symbology and meanings) combined with an attempt to do what the law and the courts have stipulated. The LAST thing it is is an attack on Christianity. This is merely a case of ignorance masquerading as education, and self-righteous opportunism disguised as the pursuit of justice.
Are you saying the symbols are not religious?
The policy, as quoted in the article puts Christmas trees and Menorahs on the same level, as "secular holiday symbols." This shows a real ignorance of the significance of both symbols. (Of course, most Christians don't want to think about the traditional significance of the tree, either.)
A correction to my earlier cvomment: Strike the phrase "non- Christian." A Christmas tree is by definition a religious symbol, because the cultural association it suggests is with a religious holiday, and the same applies to the nine-stemmed menorah (hannukiah), although the seven-stemmed menorah is not at all associated with a holiday (it merely represents the seven days of the week). The ignorance is in the equally flawed assertions that these symbols are not religious. If I were a Christian activist, I would be incensed over the policy attempting to secularize Christmas by fiat. As a Jew, I am incensed that once again, someone is trying to equate a minor Jewish Holiday with a major Christian one that happens to occur around the same time. As a secular humanist, I'm incensed that a purported public educational institution is perpetuating ignorance and making a token nod to diversity only as a means to keep observance of a religious holiday a part of public education.
re #9: > A Christmas tree is by definition a religious symbol, because the > cultural association it suggests is with a religious holiday, If I'm interpreting you correctly, both Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer and Frosty the Snowman are religious symbols according to this reasoning.
And candy canes...
Perhaps 'suggests' is the wrong word. How about 'represents'? It is a *CHRISTMAS* tree, not just a tree. As for Rudolph and Frosty and candy canes, their associations with Christmas per se are less direct, minimal and not worth considering, respectively.
Rudolph is closely associated with SAINT Nicholas. How religious can you get?
re: 9: maybe you've been inhaling too much incense? ;-P re: 6: I'm not suggesting it's an attack on Christianity (nor, since I'm not a Christian, would I care any more if it were than if it were an attack on Hinduism). I'm pointing out that to outlaw the religious symbols of religion A on the grounds of "separation of church and state" while allowing those of religions B, C, X, Y and Z is evidence of double standards.
I think it's interesting that people were criticizing a plan by Crestwood Public Schools to make Eid a holiday as being an endorsement of religion, when Good Friday is already a holiday and has been for years. People only seem to care about stuff that looks like public endorsement of religion when it's a non-Christian religion.
Try that again gull, it makes no sense as it appears. Christmas trees are not christian in origin. The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death. The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life. Centuries ago in Great Britain, woods priests called Druids used evergreens during mysterious winter solstice rituals. The Druids used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life, and place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits. Late in the Middle Ages, Germans and Scandinavians placed evergreen trees inside their homes or just outside their doors to show their hope in the forthcoming spring. Our modern Christmas tree evolved from these early traditions. Legend has it that Martin Luther began the tradition of decorating trees to celebrate Christmas. One crisp Christmas Eve, about the year 1500, he was walking through snow-covered woods and was struck by the beauty of a group of small evergreens. Their branches, dusted with snow, shimmered in the moonlight. When he got home, he set up a little fir tree indoors so he could share this story with his children. He decorated it with candles, which he lighted in honor of Christ's birth. Saying a christmas tree is religious is like saying a pumpkin pie is religious. Or a blueberry muffin. It is a tradition, not a religious artifact. Symbols of faith are: Menorah is a symbol of Judaism Crescent Moon and five pointed star of Islam The Khanda of the Sikh The OM of the hindu The Dharma Wheel of the Buddist The cross of Christianity If you ban ine of these, you have to ban them all. If you accept one of these, you have to accept them all. Can we agree on that?
Yep.
if they're not christian in origin, perhaps we should stop calling them CHRISTmas trees. i'm going to call mine "Madge" this year, or perhaps "Gay Bobby"
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We always call our trees by name. We usually go to a "Cut Your Own" tree farm and wander around looking at the trees until one of them tells one of us its name. We do the same thing when we don't have time to go to the farm and go to a tree lot. If none of the trees on the lot tell us its name we go to a different lot. Staci is getting quite good a hearing trees, almost as good as STeve and me. Damon has always been a little deaf, I quess trees talk in that middle range of hearing frequencies that he lost due to ear infections in his youth.
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glenda, do you replant your christmas trees?
Only if they request it.
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Glenda, can you give us some examples of tree names?
Once we get the fireplace repaired, we will keep the tree to burn on the next year's Christmas eve. That is what we used to do when we lived in a house with a working fireplace. Right now we put them out for recycling. I only know the names of the trees that talk to me. Some names have been: Harry, Thomas, Mildred, Clare, Fred, George, Harriet, Esmarelda.
pine trees are a poor choice for fire places. Tehy don't burn cleanly and leave creosote? in the chimney which can lead to chimney fires.
Once a year shouldn't be a problem, especially if the chimney is cleaned regularly.
Carol's family had a tradition of staying up to midnight on New Year's Eve, and then burning the Christmas tree in the fireplace.
I like to let them age and dry out for a year. The Christmas tree is the only pine we burn, so only once a year. Never had a problem with it.
The only people in the country who think a Christmas tree is not a Christian symbol are Christians.
Think about the evolution of the tradition of bringing the tree in. It started with pagans, was adopted by early Christians as a conversion tactic, and has become associated with Christianty as people have forgotten about the prior (and longer) pagan holidays.
I'm not a Christian and I have never considered a "Christmas Tree" a Christian Symbol. I grew up seeing it as a traditional entertaining end-of-the-year lighted and good-smelling decoration needed for putting presents under that serves to jolly up a period of long darkness and cold. I've never seen any religious symbolism in it at all. The same way with "Santa Claus", despite the name. These are tied to 25 December, which I knew had some tie to Christianity, but that was pretty irrelevant. I soon learned, of course, of the pagan origins and the Christian co-option of the date.
Like all gross generalizations, mine was slightly less than 100% accurate. The [nearly sum total of] people in the country who think a Christmas tree is not a Christian symbol are Christians. How's that?
How about percentages? Since there are more Christians than of any other persuasion, the percentage of Christians that think a Christmas tree is not a Christian symbol could well be much less than the percentage of any other persuasions.
When I was growing up only Christians had Christmas trees. My brother and I each had one Christian friend. The rest of us did not give presents in December, or send cards. For some reason we were required to sing Christmas carols in our 2% Christian school by the Christian teachers.
I presume that your kinfolk didn't want to join in Saturnalia either.
I've been wondering, if you're not supposed to have religious symbols on display on public property, and they are moving away from explicitly celebrating christmas in schools and putting up christian symbols, then wtf is Christmas the only religious festival that is a public and federal holiday?
What about easter?
And Good Friday...
Because christianity is still the majority religion in this country, adn it is hard to do business with 60% of the work force taking the day off.
Last I noticed, Good Friday isn't a Federal holiday, nor is Easter (of course, that one is always on Sunday, when banks and most Federal buildings are closed anyway.). I'm a little confused by what mynxcat is wondering in resp:38 though.
I was thinking of "the Easter season". Good Friday, Easter Sunday, Easter Monday, and however many days kids get off school over there for Easter.
They do? I don't recall that happening when our daughter was in public school. To add to #41 - 60% of politicians too. They mandated the Christmas holiday so they could do their traditional things on a majority religious event. It is really unconstitutional, of course, but so are "in God we trust" and "under God". However it goes beyond religion. New Year's Day, for example, to recover from a hangover, or Labor Day, because of the electoral power of labor.
Re: #44 Para 1: M<aybe they don't. Over here they do.
AFAIK no public school in the two states I've lived in (Ohio and Michigan) give children specifically Easter holidays. There is a spring break, but it does not always coincide with Easter. And no business I've ever worked at has had Good Friday or Easter Monday off.
I recall schools and businesses being lenient with students or employees asking to leave early for religious ceremonies.
(Ann Arbor's spring break coincides with Easter. School lets out at the
end of the day on Maundy Thursday and resumes on Monday a week later.)
Last I heard, the Federal holidays were
New Year's Day Martin Luther King Day
Presidents Day Memorial Day
Independence Day Labor Day
Columbus Day Veterans' Day
Thanksgiving Day Christmas Day
I thought there eleven, so I seem to be missing one.
I have a list of the bank holidays in front of me. There are 10. You have listed them all. I know there aren't holidays for Easter, but after all the hoo-haa about removing religious symbols from the work place, and not allowing christmas trees in schools, why does the government even sanction Christmas as a federal holiday. bru says it would be hard to do business with 60% of the work-force taking the day off. But why should they take the day off. I haven't seen the Muslims take Eid off, the Hindus take Diwali off. I'm not aware of Jewish people taking Hanukkah off, but it's sufficiently close to Christmas to be bundled with all the personal time people take around the end of year. I'm not fully aware of the constitution in this country, but isn't the government supposed to be secular? Or am I just being presumptious
Re #41: That's pretty much the argument one school district is using for giving kids Eid (a Muslim holiday) off. So much of their student body is Muslim that they wouldn't meet attendance requirements for calling it an "official" school day. My schools always had Good Friday off, though they were careful not to *call* it that...of course, we got the first day of rifle season off, too. I guess some people would consider that a religious holiday as well. ;>
President's Day? If that coincides with a holiday in the uk, remind me to find a job where i'll have to be at work that day until such time as the democrats win the presidential.
I think President's day was for the birth anniversary of two presidents, Lincoln and Washington, and they picked a day between the two brith anniversaries? Or have I been misinformed?
You got it. Lincoln's birthday is Feb. 12, Washington's is Feb 22. We used to get both off (I worked for the City of Westland), then it was changed to the Monday between them and I lost a holiday, regained when when Martin Luther King day came into being.
Maybe it's not more important to commemmorate than to "doiscommemmorate" then.
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Was Washington's birthday Feb 22nd new calendar or old calendar (jump in days in his lifetime)?
#54 shouldn't have a "not" in it.
2003: Federal law (5 U.S.C. 6103) establishes the following public holidays for Federal employees. Please note that most Federal employees work on a Monday through Friday schedule. For these employees, when a holiday falls on a nonworkday -- Saturday or Sunday -- the holiday usually is observed on Monday (if the holiday falls on Sunday) or Friday (if the holiday falls on Saturday). Wednesday, January 1 New Year's Day Monday, January 20 Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr. Monday, February 17 Washington's Birthday Monday, May 26 Memorial Day Friday, July 4 Independence Day Monday, September 1 Labor Day Monday, October 13 Columbus Day Tuesday, November 11 Veterans Day Thursday, November 27 Thanksgiving Day Thursday, December 25 Christmas Day re 52: We did not know that Presidents Washington & Lincoln were Jewish. re 49: No Jew would take Hanukah off for religious reasons.
Not important what people in other countries or who follow different religions do. The fact is that many people would take Christmas off, and in so doing, would make any attempt to maintain a regular business climate impossible. Now, there are places that do stay open on Christmas, but that is up to them. no one forces anyone to close on any holiday. Most businesses know how not to thri their money w\away.Good Friday, Most places I have worked offer the employees two hours off without pay on Good Friday to go to church..
Re 58> Who said anything about Lincoln or Washington being Jewish? Where the hell did that question come from? And I'm not very aware of the Jewish faith. I may be wrong in thinking they'd want to take hanukkah off. Also, what is the pont of your post? It reiterated what gelinas said, and brought up a point that was never debated? Did you even read what people had to say?
for a while .. there was a publicized trade between christians and jews so that each would work the others' holidays ... howeer taht was in the 60s when peace love and understanding prospered beside protest ... media these dyas wouldn't *dare* announce such cooperation.
mynxcat, the penultimate sentence of #58 was a pun, based upon the misspelling of the second occurrence of "birth", as "brith", in your response. In Hebrew, "brith" means 'cutting' and is a reference to circumcision. I'd thought Presidents Day was established at the same time as Martin Luther King Day, to keep the total number of holidays the same.
Some New England states also have a day-off holiday for Patirot's day. April 19th or the Monday before it. ?
re: "#62(gelinas): In Hebrew, "brith" means 'cutting' and is a reference to circumcision." More accurately "ritual circumcision." (And the Hebrew word "brith" means "covenant." In Hebrew, the United States is called "Artzot ha'Brith" - the "lands of the covenant (agreement)". B'nai Brith = Sons of the Covenant.) And "I'd thought Presidents Day was established at the same time as Martin Luther King Day, to keep the total number of holidays the same." As demonstrated by the listing, there is no "Presidents Day" as far as the federal government is concerned.
Aaah. Now I understand. Thanks Joe. I guess President's Day is just a bank holiday then? I know we get it.
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Washington's and Lincoln's.
Bru got #0's story from Worldnet Daily (www.worldnetdaily.com) Be advised that this "news" site is run by a far right wing fringe group, run by Joseph Farah. Here is a bit about Farah: http://hnn.us/comments/13537.html: "Joseph Farah describes the United States as a moral wasteland and calls on Americans to embrace God. His proposal for change includes abolishing the income tax and the IRS, withdrawing from all international treaties and institutions, repealing all gun laws and ending federal funding for schools, the arts, conservation, housing and agriculture while simultaneously expanding the role of the church in national life, including actively censoring the entertainment industry and having a direct role in education and family life." Get your news from credible news sources. Do not get your news from "news sources" that are really fronts for groups with radical agendas. The guys behind Worldnet Daily are as fringe radical as the Rev. Sun Yung Moon's group that puts out the Washington Times. Also pushing this lawsuit will not get nativity scenes allowed back in schools, it will have the opposite effect. If anything it will cause the other religious symbols to be banned. And I reject wholeheartedly the notion that christians are being made "victims" and "second class citizens" in this country because of trivial things like this. Not when I am an athiest and all the money I have to carry around in my wallet says, "In GOD We Trust".
Be advised, I did find tha site you mentined, but that was only after I had gotten information from another location.
re: 68- Please be advised that you are reading a 4th-hand accout regarding Mr. Farah. (i.e., Mr. richard is quoting somebody who is quoting another source of what Mr. Farah's supposed views are.) If we have learned anything up to this point, it is that Mr. richard is quite an unreliable source of information himself, let alone at such a distance from the original source. Perhaps Mr. richard might be able to provide some direct information, but we suspect not.
no klg, maybe you might be able to provide direct information refuting what was posted about Farah. Do a google search on his name, you'll see numerous of his writings, first hand proof of his radical views. Some fringe crackpot puts up a website with an official sounding name, like worldnet daily, and people automatically assume he is credible. He isn't. This guy is another egomaniac political wannabe gadfly like Lyndon LaRouche. But of course klg doesn't care whether he's credible or not, because klg claims that he alone knows what is best for society. I am starting to think that klg's continued refererring to himself as "we" indicates he has some sort of "messiah" complex, like this Farah character seems to, and he envisions himself as having followers, thus "we" and not "I". Joseph Farah and klg are bretheren!
Mr. richard: Was it you who posted the link regarding Mr. Farah? And was not the link to a 3rd-hand source? Do you not think that you ought to be the one repsponsible for defending your own source material? (Not that we are surprised by your reaction. It is that to which we have become accustomed.) Thank you. klg
wroldnetdaily is rightwhing???? are you concious?
whore??????
You have several choices: