News ticker highlights from the award winning Israeli newspaper Haaretz, which is also an affiliate of the International Herald Tribune. Read what you won't hear on the local or US news....176 responses total.
11:44 IDF troops arrest eight wanted Palestinians during operations
in the West Bank
11:59 IDF troops arrest wanted Tanzim militant in Qalqilyah disguised
as a woman
13:32 IDF demolishes Kafr Rantis home of suicide bomber who killed 7
at Cafe Hillel in Jerusalem two weeks ago
13:14 Police to beef up presence at parks, places of entertainment
during upcoming month of Jewish festivals
14:46 Belgium`s highest court throws out war crimes complaint against
Ariel Sharon and case against elder Bush and Powell
15:03 Russian passenger plane enters Israeli airspace near [Red Sea
port city of] Eilat, is led out by warplanes
15:26 Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin says militant group
will not disarm or accept truce with Israel
16:44 Sheikh Ahmed Yassin denounces Bush`s speech to UN as declaration
of war on Islam
18:49 French PM: there is room for improvement in fight against
anti-Semitic violence despite drop in number of attacks
(dude, Grex *is* my local news...)
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Israelis kill Palestinians and Palestinians kill more Israelis. That isn't news anymore. You guys have been fighting for so long, I don't think anyone cares anymore. Go ahead and flame me as an insensitive clod.
<FLAME> You are an insensitive clod, Siddhartha. This will never end until the right people (i.e., those in a position to do somethig about it) start caring. </FLAME>
No no, those who care have to get in the right position to do something about it. And those people aren't politicians.
*I* don't care, and *I'm* not a politician. I guess that pretty much shoots your theory down, Sid.
Re #&: You're a Republican or a Libertarian, or I'm a Dutchman.
You got the wooden shoe thing down straight?
Re #7, Clarification - Politicians aren't people who care. The Israelis/Palestinians who care have to get in the right position to do something about it.
re 5 AAAAAAAAAHH ARE YOU TRYING TO MESS UP WEB-YAPPII
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/344036.html "We, both veteran and active pilots, who have served and who still serve the state of Israel, are opposed to carrying out illegal and immoral orders to attack, of the type Israel carries out in the territories," the letter states. "We, for whom the IDF and the air force are an integral part of our being, refuse to continue to hit innocent civilians ... The continued occupation is critically harming the country's security" and moral fiber, it added.
Yeah, except it's spelt fibre.
Interesting short essay by Orson Scott Card, titled "Are Israelis the Palestinian Police?" An excerpt: When Arafat wanted to appoint Jibril Rajoub as Palestine's national security "adviser," he did it, without asking Abu Mazen's advice, let alone his permission. So the peace process is all over, right? Arafat is taking back control and it's terrorism as usual, with the back and forth retaliations between Israel and the terrorists that we've known for so many years ... Maybe, just maybe, there's something else going on. Maybe Abu Mazen, realizing that Yasser Arafat's "security forces" will never cooperate in the suppression of terrorist groups (since they're terrorists themselves), and realizing that there is no hope for peace until the Palestinian government is able to control or eliminate all the gun- and bomb-wielding forces inside its territory ... Maybe Abu Mazen is using the Israeli military as his police force. http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2003-08-24-1.html
Re #12: A military spokesman was quoted today as saying that the pilots would be punished swiftly.
Right, but unlike Koubi from Shabak I bet they'll actually be hurt.
May this season of reflection and atonement bring you relief from this greif.
Fat chance if the other side doesn't have the same holiday.
No such luck. On Saturday a suicide bomber walked into Maxim, a beach restaurant in Haifa -- where Matt, my cousin Chana and I dined just over a year ago -- and blew herself up. 19 innocent civilians were murdered, including 3 children and an infant. 10 of the dead were from 2 families. 4 Israeli Arabs were murdered. Another 60 people were injured in the attack. "Haifa is known for its generally harmonious relations between Jews and Arabs", wrote the NY Times. It is on these beaches that in 1948 Golda Meir begged the local Arabs not to flee from their homes but to remain and help build a new state in which they would be full and equal citizens. I think a scene in the movie "Exodus" depicts this. Those who chose to leave, perhaps fearful of being treated as "collaborators" by the invading Arab armies, are "refugees". Those who remained are Israeli citizens. It is no surprise that, as the NY Times continues, "the restaurant is owned by Israeli Arabs and Jews." All of which is not lost on Islamic Jihad (who claimed the attack) nor on the bomber, who came dressed like many of the Arab patrons. The bomber, it should be noted, was a law student about to complete her studies. All of which underscores several conclusions: 1. Terrorism is not the province of the destitute who have no other voice (as if even that would justify the murder of innocents). As we've previously discussed, 2 suicide bombers were the children of millionaires. Others were students with ostensibly bright futures. The poor know all too well that terrorism causes poverty and that they can't afford it. (Polls conducted by Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research show that the more educated are more likely to support terrorism while the poor are less likely.) All of which shows that the search to appease the "root causes" of terrorism (there aren't any necessary and sufficient conditions) is a misguided effort. 2. The "root cause" in this case is what some scholars, including the revisionist "new historians", refer to as "Palestinianism" -- short for Palestinian Arab rejectionism. Combined with Islam's indoctrination for self-sacrifice (Islam = Submission), we see parents who are happy to sacrifice their own children. In this case, according to AP reports, the mother of the bomber accepted well-wishers and rejoiced in the glory of the event, saying it is the happiest day in her life, moreso than would be her daughter's wedding. This conjures another Golda Meir episode, when she said that peace will not come until the Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews. 3. Terrorists are against peace and peaceful coexistence. This is why they strike Haifa (and left wing "peace now" centers such as Kibbutz Metzer, where last year an Arab militant murdered 5 innocents, including a mother who was reading bed-time stories to her 2 children and then the children as they tried in vain to hide under the covers. That cold-blooded murderer was tracked down and killed by Israeli forces on Saturday.) Perhaps we can say that the "root cause" of this terrorism, like the 50+ years of the Arab war against Israel, is the rejection of peace. 4. The PA must dismantle the terrorist apparatus that has been harbored in its midst since the start of the Oslo peace process. Until then, in the words of Feisal Husseini, it is just a "Wooden [Trojan] horse" meant to allow Arab terrorists access to Israel's heartland. Until then, as above, the "cycle of violence" will continue (for the terrorists even "justify" the next attack because the perpetrator of the previous attack was killed).
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terrorists send their defecation outside their area. they ought to learn to switch hands now and then.
No one disputes my conclusions in #19?
23:20 Palestinians fire anti-tank missile at Israeli convoy leaving Netzarim
in Gaza Strip
21:22 Two mortar shells fired at northern Gaza Strip settlement
20:49 Time magazine: Iraqi money in Syrian government-controlled banks may
be funding terror against U.S. troops
19:51 Two-year-old conjoined twins from Egypt successfully separated in
Dallas operation
19:38 Border Police arrest wanted Hamas militant in East Jerusalem
neighborhood of Abu Dis
19:25 Tennis: Israel`s Andy Ram and Yoni Erlich win men`s doubles at Lyon
Grand Prix in France
17:00 PA official Kaddoumi says Palestinians entitled to fight the Israeli
occupation by any means [Another nod to terrorism from the highest
levels of the PA government.]
16:04 Palestinians fire on greenhouses in Gaza Strip settlement of Gadid
15:49 First post World War II Jewish elementary school opens in Croatia, in
city of Zagreb; old school was destroyed in 1941
15:27 Swastikas and other Nazi symbols painted on tombstones in Jewish
cemetery in central German city of Kassel
15:08 U.S. Amb. Dan Kurtzer: As long as there`s no change in PA leadership,
U.S. has no interest in dealing with Arafat
14:34 Two Qassam rockets land near kibbutz in western Negev
[Note: not in the disputed territories.]
14:26 Palestinian PM Ahmed Qureia tells ruling Fatah party he does not intend
to continue in post, say Fatah officials
I think maybe no one read them.
Did you?
No-one's better than lk at writing overly lengthy, fillibustery prose.
16:27 Mortar shell falls on house in Gaza Strip settlement of Kfar Darom
15:54 Otto Guensche, Hitler aide who burned Nazi dictator`s body to keep it
from the advancing Soviets, dies aged 86
14:57 Syria dismisses reports that U.S. asked it to return up to $3B.
believed held there by Saddam supporters
14:17 Jordan says its security forces kill two people trying to infiltrate
Israel via Jordan Valley, wound two others
13:20 Fatah men rescued on Sunday Israeli family of four that mistakenly
entered Qalandiya refugee camp
11:04 Palestinians fire at IDF troops near Rafah in Gaza Strip, throw
grenades
More later about the new "Geneva Accord".
Flash! The U.N. has ordered Canada to enforce a ban on all forms of corporal punishment of children. No word, though, on any making a request that Syria (member of the U.N.'s counter-terrorism committee) enforce a ban on terrorists.
klg, some history is in order. We must be very careful in encouraging
Syria to do anything. You do remember what happened last time they
acted against terrorist rebels in Hama, right? Do we really want to
risk the lives of 20,000 innocents in the process?
http://www.mafhoum.com/press2/63P58.htm
17:54 Saudi police arrest up to 50 protesters calling for greater reforms
during kingdom`s first human rights conference
10:28 Palestinians: bomb goes off underneath vehicle carrying CIA officials
in Gaza, killing four people
10:47 Witnesses: silver Cherokee jeep used by American diplomats completely
destroyed in Gaza blast
10:57 Car destroyed in Gaza Strip bombing bore U.S. diplomatic license plates
10:59 IDF tanks and APCs, backed by helicopters, move into Gaza Strip to
evacuate bombed U.S. vehicle
11:14 IDF: unclear if source of Gaza blast on U.S. convoy was roadside
bomb or suicide bomber
12:14 Sky News: All the dead in Gaza bombing were Americans
13:06 U.S. officials in bombed convoy were on their way to discuss study
grants for Palestinian academics in Gaza
13:46 U.S. Ambassador Kurtzer thanks FM Shalom after Israel sends forces
into Gaza to evacuate dead and injured
14:42 U.S. embassy advises all Americans to leave Gaza Strip after bomb
attack on convoy
15:10 UN envoy: Palestinian security forces must be reformed to stop
terror attacks
Evidently the UN sees nothing wrong with 10,000 terrorist attacks against
Israel over 3 years, but just one terrorist attack against the US....
15:13 CIA spokesman in Washington, Bill Harlow, says `there were no CIA
people involved` in Gaza attack on U.S. convoy
16:29 Convoy attacked in Gaza was taking U.S. officials to meet
Palestinian candidates for Fulbright scholarships in U.S.
I miss the days when Leeron contributed more than just things like this.
Not CIA officials, but the bodyguards of a peace delegation.
Chris, I appreciate your sentiment, but I miss the days when I didn't have to worry if my mom's car would be next to a bus that might blow up. Or if a cousin would be at the wrong pizzeria, ice-cream parlor or cafe on the wrong night.... All this will pass, it's just a question of how many people must die before it's over. (And hey, if I just wanted to yapp about nothing -- I'd be on M-Net. (: )
Don;t get me wrong, I realize the importance of the information, as well as the importance of hearing the same information from "the other side" as it were, but I know you're more than this. I don't believe I'm alone in being kind of tired of seeing the same thing over and over again....and please don't go into a diatribe about being tired of the treatment of the Palestinians....I get it already..;-)
I agree.
07:12 Three senior Fatah officials tell Washington that Arafat is preventing
reforms in the PA from being carried out
01:28 Palestinians fire several Qassam rockets from north Gaza Strip
00:58 Palestinian sources: three people, including Hamas activist killed in
W. Bank `work accident` [premature bomb explosion]
(Business is booming??)
Yet when bomb labs in apartment buildings or car bombs blow up prematurely
in Arab city streets, why is no one complaining about the "colateral damage"?
The above headline states that only 1 of the 3 people killed was a Hamas
activist. Where is the scandal and outrage on the "Arab street" -- or
on Grex? Yet if Israel kills 8 terrorists and 4 civilians [actual numbers
from this week], it's akin to the bomb being detonated in an Israel cafe,
supermarket or civilian bus? Now someone is going to avenge this "martyr's"
death -- and this is the "cycle" of violence?!
17:43 Jordan`s King Abdullah urges Palestinian Authority to fulfil
security obligations during talks with PM Ahmed Qureia
16:53 Pro-democracy demonstrators in Saudi Arabia block traffic in Jeddah;
elsewhere, police prevent anti-government protests
15:58 Seoul: North Korea earned $60 million in 2002 from Scud missile
sales to middle eastern countries
14:02 PA chairman put on edge Tuesday as IDF operated near Muqata, saying
`I feel the smell of paradise,` Arafat aide says
12:23 Two Islamic Jihad wanted militants carrying grenades nabbed by IDF
troops in West Bank village of Dura, south of Hebron
20:25 Hamas, Jihad sign agreement to cooperate in carrying out terror
attacks and to create a ruling body in Gaza
17:57 Canada says it is assessing the future of El Al flights to Toronto
following security threat against jet on Thursday
08:04 Two wanted Palestinian militants arrested by IDF troops [hiding]
in hospitals in Nablus
11:31 Der Spiegel: Two Al-Qaida suspects believed to be behind September 11
bombings give interrogators full confessions
12:58 16 Kurdish asylum seekers return to Iraq after spending more than two
years near Lebanese-Israeli border
13:03 PA Foreign Minister Sha`ath: There will be no Palestinian compromise
on right of return
[The rejectionism lives on. They want the two-state solution to be
2 more Arab states.]
13:12 300 Israelis helping Palestinians from the village of Aras to harvest
olives for third straight weekend
I want to thank lk for not learning how to get these to stream at the bottom of my screen.
New PA Parliament Speaker states that the struggle will continue
in all its forms (i.e. violence).
20:15 Tariq Hussein, who killed girl, wounded 3 others in June attack on
Trans-Israel Highway, turns himself in to IDF
14:00 Militant who blew himself up Monday in West Bank tried to enter
capital on Sunday, but left area due to tight security
17:53 Father of teen who blew self up when cornered by IDF in W. Bank
slams militants for sending one so young to his death
I don't blame him, but in a way this is like PETA's condemnation of using
a cart pulled by a donkey as a bomb delivery. There's nothing wrong with
blowing up dozens of innocents Israelis -- so long as it's not done by a
teenager and no animals are killed.
00:14 IDF forces discover series of roadside bombs targetting troops on
Israel-Lebanon border
02:28 Palestinians fail to form new government; Qureia leaves meeting with
Arafat looking grim, refuses to talk to reporters
04:06 Israeli-Palestinian team prepares in Europe for joint expedition to
climb mountain in Antarctica
08:07 Tanzim officials: Fatah committee not entitled to appoint Interior
Minister because its members are corrupt
08:10 Senior Fatah official says that each member of body`s central
committee earns $20,000 a MONTH [not bad in a region where the
average worker -- who actually does something -- earns $400/mo.
I'll bet that this $20K is just compensation above the table....]
04:06 Israeli-Palestinian team prepares in Europe for joint expedition to climb mountain in Antarctica (Did they get lost on the road map?)
And that's progress!
00:52 Report: Palestinian Chairman Arafat transfers $100,000 monthly,
from PA funds to wife Suha, living in Paris
Recall that Money magazine last year ranked Arafat amongst the richest
people in the world. Bin Laden, oil-rich Qaddafi... anyone still think
that poverty is the "root cause" of terrorism?
When do we get to the era that a commercial will show an alien landing
in "Palestine" and saying to a child: "take me to your leader"... only
to be told: "we don't have any leadership"?
22:46 Catholic cardinal to Vatican Radio: Muslim media, education are
anti-Semitic, have similar approach to Nazis
Israeli Heroes Kill Ten-year-old Terrorist http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=461648 Mahmud, 10, went looking for songbirds ... and died in hail of bullets By Justin Huggler in Shajiyeh, Gaza Strip 08 November 2003 Mahmud al-Qayed was out doing what he did every Friday - catching songbirds in cages to sell in the markets of Gaza. But yesterday the remote olive groves where the birds nest led him close to the fence separating the Gaza Strip from Israel. Too close for the soldiers guarding the fence. They shot Mahmud, 10, four times, killing him as he tried to run. The boy's father, Mohammed, was with him, and, at the funeral, he told how he took the bloodstained sweater from his son's dead body, and buried his face in it. Mahmud was one of a group of about 20 - the rest were adults - who ventured out to the fence to catch the songbirds, which can fetch good money in the markets. There are plenty of witnesses who saw the group on their way to the fence, and confirm that they were there to catch birds. But the Israeli army said that it had spotted three people laying what it says were electric wires and tubes used in explosives, and that is why it opened fire. According to the witnesses, what the group were laying were the cages that trap the birds. This was not the first time a birdcatcher has been killed next to the fence here. Mahmud was the fifth to die here since the intifada began in 2000. He was the youngest, but before him a 15-year-old and a 13- year-old had also been killed. It is a beautiful spot, narrow lanes fringed by tall cactus lead to the largely undisturbed olive groves that are home to the songbirds. In these autumn nights, the air is full of the smoke of the woodfires that warm the locals. But on the other side of the fence may be seen a completely different landscape of vast, open modern fields and the Israeli farm town of Nakhal Oz, which in the past has been a target for attacks by Palestinian militants. The Israeli army has declared the olive groves in this area off-limits to Palestinians, to protect Nakhal Oz. But, in spite of the danger, the birdcatchers still come. Money and work are desperately scarce, and what was once a hobby has become, for many, a living. Last week, said Mahmud's father, the boy managed to catch two song- sparrows and a rare songbird, a khudr. In normal times, this rare bird alone could fetch almost 100. In the current economic collapse, the boy sold all three for less than 10. But it was still enough to buy himself a new bicycle, and not many children can afford those in Gaza these days. A witness, who would give his name only as Abu Subhi, who lives near the olive groves and saw the birdcatchers on their way to plant their traps, says the Israeli soldiers should be well aware that the birdcatchers still come and are no threat. He says some visit the groves almost every day. Last night the Israeli army insisted that the only reason for Palestinians to move close to the fence was to attack Nakhal Oz. Surrounded by mourners at the funeral, Mahmud's father, Mohammed, told how his son had been killed. "We left home at around 5am. My neighbour, my son and I," he said. "I was driving the donkey-cart. We got to Shajiyeh at around 6am. We put out our traps and waited for the birds. We were about 700 metres from the border. They [Israeli forces] fired two shells, that landed near the electricity pylon, about 200 metres from us. We stayed on the ground because we were waiting for the birds. Then we saw five soldiers approaching with helmets and everything. I ran. My son could not get away." Nimur abu 'As'us, a 26-year-old who was with the group, was wounded and witnessed Mahmud's death. Speaking from a hospital bed, he said: "The soldiers chased us. I was running, the boy was running too. They shot at both of us. I was hit in the leg. They hit him with four bullets. They shouted to stop and he stopped. I kept running, I looked back and I saw him stop. I saw the bullets hit him. If he hadn't stopped perhaps they would have killed both of us." His face grew dark. "Perhaps the fact he stopped saved my life." After that, he said, a crowd of Palestinians came running to see what was happening and the soldiers gave up the chase. At first, Mr 'As'us said, the soldiers took Mahmud's body away, then later returned it. Mohammed said: "I took his sweater. I hugged it, then I buried my face in his blood. It was wrong to kill him. He was young, he was no threat, he just wanted to catch a bird. Where are the human rights? Where are the children's rights? "They kill children. That is wrong."
NOTE: THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF STRONG PALESTINIAN PROPAGANDA! IT SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED BY ANYONE UNDER THE AGE OF TWENTY_ONE! Children of Palestine Speak: Life under Occupation "I remember once I slept while I was standing against the wall. It was a terrible time we had, that I would never forget..Please, I want to raise my voice and tell the people of the world .." By Children of Palestine Edited by SONIA NETTNIN Leaders of the world, please take note: the Road Map is in dissolution, but the children of Palestine were not asked for their input. They have created an art display of letters, pictures and diary entries. Girls and boys share their experiences, describe life under military occupation and give observational feedback for the world s leadership. Their evaluation of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is thus: the violence and their living conditions are the root-cause of their despair. The road map to somewhere led to nowhere. For Abraham s children, hope is a prerequisite for peace. The platform for their assessment was at the Palestinian Christian Solidarity Festival in Chicago, where all faiths were welcome. It was held at St. Elias Christian Church Immanuel Lutheran Church on November 1st the beginning of Arab Cultural Month. The event was sponsored by the Working Group on the Middle East Metro Chicago Synod ECLA. Angel from Beit-Jala writes: I want to tell the world we are living in hard conditions under Israeli occupation. We are suffering a lot in our own land and houses. The schools are closed and pupils had to stay at home. We can t study and if we want to, the explosions that are often heard, the bombing, the noise of tanks prevent us to do so one night while we were sleeping, a big bang on the door was heard, we were all awake and my father went to answer the door. About fifty soldiers burst into the house; they were carrying heavy guns towards us. My mother was in her room with my brother. I ran and went to join them. My father tried to prevent them from entering the room, when one of the soldiers held his gun towards his head and threatened to shoot him if he doesn t let them enter the room. At last, the soldiers broke into the room and put us all in one small room we wanted to go out of the room to the bathroom but were not allowed to do so. My little brother was crying from pain of fear, we could not help him. We stayed in the room for three days. They permitted my mother to leave room to get food and water . . . we spent three full days in the same room....The soldiers they broke the fridge, they threw empty bottles onto the floor, they cut the wires of the telephone, they broke the furniture, they destroyed every piece of furniture. I remember once I slept while I was standing against the wall. It was a terrible time we had, that I would never forget .. Please, I want to raise my voice and tell the people of the world, we Palestinians, want to live a peaceful life with the Israelis. We want to have our rights as all children of the world do. Please stop occupation and help us to live freely in our own land. Thanks. At the festival were olive woodcarvings, embroidered cards, pictures, candles, and Palestinian embroidery. They were made in Bethlehem. Glass was destroyed during the Israeli invasions of Bethlehem. As a result, the workshop of al-Kahf in Bethlehem transformed these ruins into glass art pieces. The broken glass pieces are fused glass ornaments full of hope, justice, peace, and dignity. Peace from Ramallah creates another dimension for Shakespeare s work as she writes: To everybody who love freedom To be or not to be this is the question I am Peace , i live ... nowhere, why i can t remember. All that I remember that somebody in somewhere just take my land, my freedom, everything, Why: because some children throw stones to resist there occupation and want freedom But when I write this letter there was some tanks and some soldier prevent the children in my area from reaching there schools my parents from reaching their jobs, or taking my small sister to the clinic we want peace which means to live really in peace like all the peoples in the world to live together as neighbor with equality, dignity everybody in the world think that we are terrorists, but they didn t know that someone who come from every where occupied my land. If you think about our life you cant see anything, there is no life there is nothing just blood, we want peace because peace is the end of the blood, but Israel didn t want any peace, every boys and girls want peace, life, and play this is our dream and i hope in somebody it will be truth. So I think the real question is to be or to be. Serene from Ramallah writes about peace in her letter also: Dear Lovers of Peace, Peace is a small and a beautiful word but not everyone know what it means, I love peace, all Palestinians love peace and love to have a permanent peace, but Israel doesn t want peace, they want our land and our trees, oil, culture and custom of Palestinians we want to live safely but we don t have it, we want to live in our houses together without killing families, neighbors and friends. In our free time we don t have anything to do or to take, we have only soldiers in our streets, tanks over our cars and men in the Israeli prison their families stay waiting for them a long time. In a picture display, a fourth grader drew a girl who witnesses the murder of her friend by Israeli soldiers. Above her head, she ponders a dreamy thought: a playground with grass, birds, flowers, and trees. Diary entries were on display alongside the pictures. Clarity from Beit-Jala expresses: Dear Diary It s early morning. The sun is finally rising from behind the horizon after a long night of sorrow and darkness. It is shining on a little country in the middle east, trying to drown away the shadows of its everlasting nights!...the first thing I ve noticed about my entire life as a Palestinian youth is the fact of living in a country that doesn t exist on the world map. Palestine an occupied country in the middle east is just a place of which many kids in different parts of this globe have never heard. It s that holy land which has been turned into a dry desert of war and injustice. Being born to open your eyes on this land means being deprived of your human rights and even some daily needs! Secondly, I ve opened my tearful eyes widely to realize that the entire Palestinian nation is trapped in a murky, filthy cave, in this modernized world! They ve been deprived of the right of moving freely in their own country/travel easily abroad. By the way, this has many consequences on the Palestinian people, some of which are: One the general low living standard and bad financial conditions; Two the disability of many kids to broaden their minds, which is believed to be a result of not being exposed to different cultures in addition to all this, Palestinians suffer from a shortage of daily needs that people elsewhere in the world take for granted, such as: electricity, water, fuel and some kinds of medicine and products. They even don t always have Mail service...I d like to emphasize on the fact that many Palestinian kids and youth are suffering from depression and stress. They are traumatized by the war crimes that take place in their daily lives. They ve been caused to become hopeless and pessimistic at such a young age. The world speaks a lot about Palestinian infants who sacrifice themselves for the sake of their country and condemns their actions. But after all no wonder that their lives are nothing worth to them anymore! My dear Diary, hoping to have been able to express some of what has been squeezing my soul, I have no more words to say other than: Man has two hearts: a hart that suffers and another that hopes. One eighth-grader describes how she feels when she is at a checkpoint in her letter: How could I express my feelings and tell you about our hard life as Palestinian which is filled with difficulties and danger. On the checkpoints we face those soldiers holding their horrible weapons threatening people on their way to work and scaring children on their way to school. Reverend Said Ailabouni from the ECLA Division of Global Mission spoke at the festival. Three weeks ago, he saw the wall. He described it as 25-feet high and the barbed wire areas can cause electrocution. With the creation of the Abraham Center, Christians, Jews and Muslims can meet in one place to tear down walls and make peace happen. He stated: In a time of despair the people refuse to give up, to die, and to lose hope. Dream wrote a piece titled, I Have a Dream. He says: I had the feeling that I could be one of the first Palestinian generations that would enjoy freedom for the first time in recent history. However, this hope was lost on March 29th last year when the Israeli forces invaded my city Ramallah and occupied our house for almost a week. . . I have a dream that I could go along with my friends to a public park and play, without being harmed purposefully or accidentally by the random shooting. I have a dream that I could go to bed without listening to the sounds of machine guns around the house and in the streets. I have a dream that one day all peace lovers will stand behind us the children of Palestine to help us grow with no harm physically, mentally and morally, to be the future leader who will build Palestine as a peaceful nation. The festival ended with a performance by dance troupe Sanabel-Debke. Their energy and spirit had audience members clapping to their dance moves. The solidarity festival was the Palestine children s venue for expression. Their suffering and their desire for a peaceful life should be the centerpiece in political negotiations; so a roundtable discussion can take place. The viewpoints of these future leaders provide constructive feedback for present world leadership. The question is: will they ever listen. Source: The Palestine Chronicle - www.palestinechronicle.com
Peace will come only when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate Israel.
That's a very broad generalization, Eric.
it is, hwoever, the significant turning point ... 49.9/50.1 .... .po
What they need is a strong palestinian leader who can survive the assault of other pa;estinian leaders bent on violence. They need a palestinian Ghandi.
resp:47 - I have always thought that Golda Meir quote really does say a lot about why there isnt peace in the middle east. It really illustrates to me how some Israelis feel. They feel that Palestinians are so filled with hate that they would put their children in harms way rather than live side by side with Israel. There is a strong implication that Palestinians are generally a hateful people. It also puts *all* the blame for the situation onto the shoulders of the Palestinians. Are Israelis whose children are in the military and in harms way accused of hating the Palestinians more than they love their children? Is it only Palestinian hate that is causing problems in the Middle East? It seems to me that Israeli hate is a problem too. HATE is the problem, not just "Palestinian hate" Think about how offensive it would be if some Iraqi said that Americans hate Iraqis more than we love our children. I mean, why else would we send our children there to die?
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tsty: you'll stop saying that when you love Palestinian children more than absurd rhetoric.
19:24 Al-Aqsa Martyrs` Brigades activists kill Nablus butcher who refused
to close shop during militant`s funeral
While it is tragic that a boy laying cages to trap birds was mistaken
for a terrorist laying road-side bombs, we need to remember that this is
a war zone -- and this, historically and currently, by choice of the Arab
rejectionists who refuse to compromise and make peace.
The cut-and-paste articles above argue the case of poverty. Perhaps
this should be addressed to Yasser Arafat -- who sends his wife $100,000
every MONTH. Or the Central Committee members who legally pocket $20,000
per MONTH in a region where the average salary is $300-400 per month.
Which doesn't even address the money wasted on buying weapons (those found
aboard the Karine-A ship represented 3-15% of the PA's annual budget. Each
time Hamas purchases an M16 that's $5000 wasted) and the funds lost to
corruption and placed in private Swiss bank accounts. (Things are so bad that
even Arab countries are demanding accountability for their contributions.)
Lynne, I see your point but you neglect one huge difference. American and
Israeli policy isn't dictated by the hate-mongers. I don't have to convince
you that the majority of Americans don't give a flying leap about Iraq, and
even the Bush critics don't ascribe his actions to "hate" (they say it has
more to do with "oil"). Israeli society and government is the same. Most
Israelis just want to live in peace. As you might recall from polls, only a
small percentage (~%6) of the "settlers" think that the territories are worth
fighting for -- a tiny minority within a minority. They think so not because
they hate the Arabs and wish to deprive them or even displace them, but due
to their own love for the land.
The Arab imperative has been of a different nature. Just look at 1948. The
goal wasn't to establish a Palestinian Arab state. They held Judea and
Samaria (which were "unified" with eastern Palestine as Trans-Jordan's
"West Bank") and Gaza (ruled by Egypt) for 19 years with no such intent.
The goal in 1948 was to "drive the Jews into the sea", a theme which was
repeated in 1967. Some could argue that the intent in 1973 was to regain
territory lost in 1967, but does anyone believe that if Israel had not
repelled the attack that the Egyptians would have stopped after reclaiming
the Sinai or Syria at the edge of the Golan?!
Let's not kid ourselves. It was Anwar Sadat who said (around 1973) that he
was willing to sacrifice 1 million Egyptian soldiers to destroy Israel.
(I don't remember, but Golda may have been responding to that when she said
what Eric quoted.)
Israel grudgingly sends its children to defend itself from these attacks.
Yet unlike "suicide bombers", Israelis hope and pray that no harm will
fall on their children doing this necessary job.
Let's go back to the $5,000 M-16. Each time Hamas opts to send a terrorist
to shoot dead as many Israelis as possible, they have stated that the
murder of these innocents is more important than buying $5,000 worth of
food with which to feed the children!
Then again, humanitarian aid will tend to the children, so why not buy the
weapon? Recall also that prior to the intifada, UNRWA was feeding 11,000
people, most of them elderly, widows, orphan,s etc. Today it feeds 715,000.
But don't expect any university "intellectuals" to call for an end to this aid
or for reducing it by the amount the PA spends on weapons.
Ask yourself this:
If Israel were to disband its army today, would it exist tomorrow?
If the Arabs were to end terrorism and accept peaceful coexistence today,
would there be peace tomorrow?
(I hate saying "the Arabs", as if they all support terrorism. But the minority
which does not has no power. The leadership does. Consider it short-hand for
the Arab leadership as supported by the majority.)
So the question we need to examine is why the majority of Palestinian Arabs
seek a violent solution (recall that the PLO Covenant openly rejects all
others) rather than accede to peaceful coexistence.
Remember the quote from revisionist historian Benny Morris?
(This is the guy who wrote a book about how Israel did evict some Arabs
during the 1948 war.)
|| Palestinian leaders and preachers, guided by history and religion, have
|| traditionally seen the Jews as an inferior race whose proper place was
|| as an abased minority in a Muslim polity.
That's the horrible non-secret.
Peaceful coexistance is surrender.
And it is unacceptable.
"Carthage [Israel] must be destroyed!"
Even at the cost of the children.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
14:30 Palestinian lawmaker confirms that PA funding Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades
militants to sum of $50,000 per month
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13:15 Israeli government source: Palestinian cabinet deal extends Yasser
Arafat`s `terror cartel`
16:12 Saudi news agency SPA: 11 people killed, 122 injured in Riyadh terror
attack on Saturday
10:56 Al-Qaida militants were disguised as security forces when they drove
explosives-laden car into Riyadh compound
16:01 Shimon Peres in Thessaloniki speech says Riyadh terror attack shows no
country is immune to terrorism
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Which, btw, I find rather disturbing. How could he possibly have aquired a lot of wealth without essentially stealing it from the Palestinian people?
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Essentially.
Now here's a guy with enough money to build an empire and invite everybody for 50 miles to move in and have a nice life and what does he do with it? He buys explosives and rockets and guns so his neighbors can go off and kill themselves and take innocent unsuspecting people with them. What a guy. Why he hasn't been asassinated and his moeny frozen I'll never know.
I'm not sure how lk can argue that the people who're GIVING LOTS OF MONEY TO PEOPLE are the ones who cause poverty.
because the 'giving ones' are dupes of the araFAT-bank account. jsut like saddam, teh $$$ get diverted ..... and is wife&kid live in france! gee, no wonder the frogs opposed new europ's decisioni to dump saddam! /
*hic*
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and a bic razor and some burmashave.
.. tha's 'head' towel, isn;t it?
04:23 Citing Syria`s history of sheltering terrorists, U.S. Senate agrees to
broad new economic and trade sanctions on Syria
04:02 PA negotiator Saeb Erekat: New Palestinian government will focus on
reviving the peace process with Israel
04:14 PA negotiator Saeb Erekat: New Palestinian government will concentrate
on maintaining the rule of law, ending chaos
12:59 Speaking at PLC, Qureia urges end to armed `chaos` in West Bank and
Gaza Strip
13:05 Palestinians fire at workers near Gaza Strip settlement of Morag,
wounding one lightly to moderately
13:28 Israeli Embassy in Athens complains to Greek gov`t about composer
Mikis Theodorakis, who called Jews `root of evil`
14:51 Palestinian killed, three wounded in struggle with IDF troops near
Gaza Strip fence
17:31 IDF soldier lightly hurt when explosive device thrown at IDF troops
in Gaza near border fence with Israel
Whats really funny is I saw a program on tv last week, where an independent film crew followed aPalastinian woman thru her marriage to a husband who is living in the U.S. They kept taking back roads to "get around" the isreali road blocks. Three hours on a back raod to avoid the isreali road blocks. What the hell good are the roadblocks doing if they just openly drive around them?
04:02 PA negotiator Saeb Erekat: New Palestinian government will focus
on reviving the peace process with Israel
04:14 PA negotiator Saeb Erekat: New Palestinian government will
concentrate on maintaining the rule of law, ending chaos
.
.
.
13:05 Palestinians fire at workers near Gaza Strip settlement of Morag,
wounding one lightly to moderately; 14:51 Palestinian killed, three
wounded in struggle with IDF troops near Gaza Strip fence; 17:31 IDF
soldier lightly hurt when explosive device thrown at IDF troops in Gaza
near border fence with Israel
Didn't take 'em long, did it?
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All borders are porous to the determined. A little leakage is considered preferable to unlimited passage.
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I once took a "back road" to cross a border. It was from Hungary into Czechoslovakia during the Cold War, on my motorcycle. The road was a dirt two-track. When I got to the border there was a border guard sitting in a chair in front of a little cabin, with a rifle across his knees. He said I couldn't cross there. So.....I followed his advice.
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One time I took a sailboat to Canada for a picnic and then took the sailboat back to the USA without bothering with customs in either direction. What good is customs when one can simply sail around them?
This morning's headline (and no, I'm not making it up!)
10:09 Security forces arrest wanted Tanzim man at West Bank roadblock,
find large quantity of ammunition
In other news:
10:26 Palestinians throw firebomb at Israeli vehicle between West Bank
settlements of Tapuah and Migdalim
09:35 Tel Aviv District Court convicts taxi driver who drove suicide bomber
to Dolphinarium [night club, murdering 24 teenagers and young adults]
of being accomplice to murder
07:23 Greek government issues statement rejecting anti-Jewish remarks made
by composer Mikis Theodorakis [composer of "Zorba the Greek", which
has spurred calls of "Zorba the anti-semite"]
Re #75: it was shortly after the tanks. There were pretty fresh shell holes in Budapest buildings.
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No, I was touring the continent en-route to a minor appointment at the TH in Eindhoven and visiting people I had met at the 3rd Int. Congress of Speleology in Vienna the previous year. Budapest was one of my visit stops.
From Ha'aretz: 15:58 14/11/2003 Ex-Shin Bet heads warn of 'catastrophe' without peace deal By Haaretz Service and Agencies In unusually brazen criticism of the government's handling of the conflict with the Palestinians, four former heads of the Shin Bet security service warned Friday of a "catastrophe" if a peace deal is not reached with the Palestinians. "We are heading downhill towards near-catastrophe. If nothing happens and we go on living by the sword, we will continue to wallow in the mud and destroy ourselves," ex-security chief Yaakov Perry told the mass-circulation daily Yedioth Ahronoth, reflecting a consensus among his three colleagues - Ami Ayalon, Avraham Shalom and Carmi Gillon.
Hooray for Shin Bet, Ha'aretz and Yedioth Ahronoth.
Where are these voices on the other side?!
(Six feet under??)
build taht damn wall faster. tought to keep immigrants out of u.s. and equally tough to kep terorists out of israel. both bent on destruction.
/sends you to betty ford clinic, cap'n korsicoff.
20:35 IDF [sapper] detonates 30-kg [66 lb] bomb near Gaza`s Kissufim Crossing 20:31 Sharon says will meet Palestinian PM Qureia in upcoming days 17:44 Israel likely to name new ambassador to Austria after four-year lapse 17:32 Raoul Wallenberg posthumously made honorary Budapest citizen 16:15 IDF finds, safely detonates 20-kg [44 lb] bomb near Jenin
build teh damn wall1 ./
01:06 Shinui faction unanimously accepts plan to evacuate Gaza Strip
settlement of Netzarim in return for Palestinian truce
[Shinui is Israel's 3rd largest party. It is centrist and primarily
secular -- and Sharon cannot maintain a coalition without it.]
01:24 37-year-old man dies of wounds sustained Saturday in Istanbul attacks,
bringing death toll to 25
07:04 Gunmen kill 2 Israelis in W. Bank ambush outside Jerusalem
08:11 Sharon aide on possible cease-fire: We won`t be the ones to foil truce
09:01 Hamas leader Yassin: We are not interested in truce with Zionist
enemy, but we will listen to Egyptian ideas
00:25 Indiana Holocaust museum set ablaze and its contents destroyed in a
likely arson attack
00:23 International Red Cross announces cessation of two aid programs
for West Bank Palestinians
00:07 Three mortar shells fired at settlement in southern Gaza Strip;
no casualties, damage to house; troops return fire
02:05 IDF troops demolish smuggling tunnel in Rafah in southern Gaza;
three soldiers wounded in exchanges of fire
03:43 Senior gov`t source: Israel will halt targetted killings, military
operations, if Palestinians sign cease fire
05:07 PA sources say arrested Palestinian policeman suspected of carrying
out attack that killed 2 Israeli soldiers
05:35 Arafat, ahead of truce talks, orders lifting freeze of militants` bank
accounts, frozen as part of anti-militant sanction
06:05 Palestinian gunmen fire at IDF troops overnight in Ramallah in the
West Bank, lightly injuring one soldier
re #90 .. indiana holocaost museum? like, where toledo is? didn't make the news that i say .. yet.
re: "05:35 Arafat, ahead of truce talks, orders lifting freeze of militants` bank accounts, frozen as part of anti-militant sanction " You mean "terrorists' bank accounts"?
Well, maybe if he appeases the terrorists by giving them more money
(one way or the other) the violence will stop? Yeah, that was a real
head-scratcher.
11:07 One gunman killed at Israel-Jordan border post
11:09 MADA: One critical, one moderate, two lightly hurt in Israel-Jordan
border attack
12:12 Jordan makes several arrests following attack at border crossing
13:03 TV speech by Mubarak interrupted, announcer says president has
`health crisis`
13:40 Mubarak resumes speech to parliament [following fall which] may have
been blood pressure problem
14:31 Bulgaria steps up security around Sofia synagogues following terror
attacks in Turkey
15:23 French chief rabbi urges Jewish men in country to wear hat, not
skullcap, in street
15:47 Exiled Iranian: Iran took UN inspectors to decoy nuclear site
Bush speech Highlights:
15:52 U.S. helping to end Mideast `cycle of dictatorship`
16:00 Long suffering Palestinian people deserve true leaders
16:01 Israel must freeze settlement building, dismantle illegal outposts
16:02 Heart of Mideast conflict is `need for viable, Palestinian democracy`
16:10 Lebanon`s top Shiite Muslim cleric condemns Istanbul attacks, saying
they only benefit the targeted people
16:29 German authorities calls for Palestinian to be given five-year prison
term for spying out Jewish targets to bomb
16:42 Vandals deface wreaths laid at Holocaust memorial to commemorate 65th
anniversary of Night of Broken Glass
18:16 IDF patrol comes under bomb, grenade attack near Rafah in Gaza
19:40 IDF troops in West Bank village of Jab`a find, detonate explosive belt
likely intended for suicide bombing
19:54 UN Security Council unanimously ratifies Russian resolution adopting
road map as means to solve Mideast conflict
20:03 Palestinians in Deheisheh camp demonstrate against PA for arresting
police officer who shot dead two IDF soldiers
20:41 Woman wounded in Israel-Jordan border shooting attack dies of injuries
19:12 Egyptian army says it destroys two weapons smuggling tunnels passing
under border with Israel
About time that this "moderate" Arab country close its border from its side.
18:26 Swastikas, racist slogans painted on tombs in Jewish cemetery in
Marseille [France]
Just "two"?
Of the PA's $93 million monthly budget, Arafat's office receives some $8
million. By comparison, only $6 million a month goes to the PA's health
system.
Shin Bet chief Avi Dichter warned the cabinet on Sunday against being
lulled by the relative quiet of the last six weeks, saying 14 suicide
bombing attempts were foiled during this period, and the number of terror
alerts has increased recently from some 30 per day to 50.
Dichter, briefing the weekly cabinet meeting, said two of the 14 failed
suicide bombers blew themselves up near Israeli targets, without causing
casualties, while the rest were either foiled by initiated Israeli military
action, or were tripped up by various roadblocks or random patrols.
22:24 IDF forces kill three armed Palestinians near the Kissufim border
crossing in Gaza Strip
21:12 Jordanian authorities arrests Al-Qaida agent near Israeli border;
his probe leads to four more arrests
17:59 Prague beefs up security in Jewish quarter to thwart terrorists
17:16 IDF Major General (res) Shmuel Arad buried in Haifa military cemetery
Z"L
12:32 Israel`s Galit Chait and Sergei Sakhnovski take bronze medal at
international figure skating competition in Japan
14:49 U.K. police quiz suspected would-be suicide bomber, make more
anti-terror searches in central, western England
16:20 Kenyan national security min.: authorities in the E. African country
have arrested more than two dozen Qaida suspects
17:10 Ex-EU envoy Moratinos: Arafat may be obstacle to peace, but also is
key to resolving Israeli-Palestinian dispute
19:26 PA extradites to Israeli police four suspects in theft of gold worth
1 NIS million from Baka al-Garbiyeh
20:10 Palestinian Prime Minister Qureia holds talks in Amman with Jordanian
Foreign Minister Marwan Muasher
20:11 Police arrest Maccabi Haifa fan for calling `death to Arabs` during
soccer match against Bnei Sachnin
20:13 Israeli film wins award in Amsterdam International Documentary Film
Festival
20:57 Meeting between Palestinian PM Ahmed Qureia and U.S. Middle East envoy
William Burns underway in Amman
Yesterday: Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades condemn Geneva Accord, threaten
to harm those that stand behind the peace plan
Today: Senior Palestinians involved in Geneva initiatives announce
that they will not attend Monday`s signing ceremony
Who sets the PA Agenda?!
The terrorists?
11:44 Turkish papers: Suspected planner of suicide bombing against
Istanbul synagogue has confessed to Al-Qaida ties
08:15 Sunday Times: MI5, Scotland Yard fear Christmas terror attacks by
Islamists on `soft targets` in London
08:00 IDF to allow 15,000 Palestinian workers, aged over 28, to enter Israel
15:52 U.S. Secretary of State Powell: We need commitment from Palestinian
leadership to stop terror. Road map not dead
16:32 Ireland retracts proposed UN resolution condemning anti-Semitism
after Arab countries refuse to support proposal
17:03 4 Palestinians arrested near village of Yatta; IDF suspects they
were on their way to carry out a shooting attack
17:18 NATO Sec. Gen. George Robertson: NATO forces won`t be used as buffer
between Israel and future Palestinian state
18:07 Al-Jazeera: Elite IDF troops arrest two Palestinians near Jordan
Valley who planned to carry out terror attack
Re: 16:32 - That's disgusting (the refusal, not just the retraction).
That's par for the course. Sounds like Powell's comment meets the definition of insanity...
Eric, I'm kind of intrigued about what your position on things might be, since you tend to support Leeron's side but seem to be a much more reasonable person. For instance, how do you feel about the roadmap with respect to the Israeli settlements?
I don't know that much about the details of the roadmap, but I do know that there are different factions among the Israeli settlers. Some of them care as little for peace with the Palestinians at the cost of any land whatsoever as Hamas cares for peace with Israel. I have no regard whatever for these people. Some of them simply feel that it is the right of the Israeli people to inhabit land they won in a war of aggression started and lost by others against them. I find it difficult not to sympathize with these people, but I feel that it is more important to make reasonable compromises for lasting peace than to be inflexible and insure conflict. Then there are those who inhabit large and/or long-established settlements and simply want to continue to live and work the land they live on and do so in peace, and I think it fair to ask the Palestinians to compromise with respect to those settlements. There are two primary factors that influence my thinking about the whole issue and they are: 1) The entire history of the Arab/Israeli conflict has been one in which the Palestinian people have been little more than a means used by the rest of the Arab nations to attack the very existence of the state of Israel, which was created as a safe haven for a people who have been universally reviled since their emergence. 2) The history of oppression to which the Jewish people have been subject has resulted in a curious and widespread mental deficiency predominant in Israeli political thinking which prevents its victims from trusting anyone who has ever taken advantage of them in the past. This problem makes Israelis quite intractable with respect to the Palestinian problem, despite the fact that experience has shown consistently that responding in kind to violence only increases violence and responding to violence with ever more determination to achieve goals through nonviolence eventually produces the desired results.
Mr. other- Why do you choose to ignore the fact that Israeli politicians came to terms with Anwar Sadat? Perhaps they are not as "intractable" as you would have us believe??
Not all Israeli politicians are intractable. Just the ones that are getting elected at the moment.
Uh huh. Like Menachem Begin was.
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klg makes a valid point. Begin, perhaps the most "intractable" Israeli PM ever, welcomed Sadat to Jerusalem and made peace with him. Can anyone even name all the Israeli PMs who have been in office during the time Arafat has played General/Dictator? (Hint: I'd have to double check, but it may be all of them.) It is worth mentioning that neither Arafat nor any Arab country accepted President Carter's invitation to the Camp David summit. To the contrary, Egypt was expelled from the Arab League for making peace -- for violating the policy established in 1949 and reiterated in 1967, the "3 NOs": No negotiation with Israel, No Recognition of Israel, No peace with Israel. In an era where Arab propaganda trumps up "ethnic cleansing" by Israel, consider that the stated Arab war objective in 1948 (and 1967 and 1973) was to "throw the Jews into the sea". Indeed, in areas that came under the conquest of invading Arab armies, not a single Jew remained (in 1948, with the exception of the British trained and led [Trans-Jordanian] Arab Legion, Arab fighting forces took no prisoners). Yet today, the Arabs who remained in Israel enjoy more freedoms and political rights than their brethren living in any Arab country. They are full and equal citizens, with equal protection under the law. (Which isn't to say that there aren't social challenges. Call me naive, but I tend to believe that much of this stems from 55+ years of an Arab effort to destroy Irael and over a thousand years of abuse prior to that. If peace were achieved, most of these problems would resolve themselves.) Given this current and ancient history, is it any wonder that Israeli leaders are sometimes cautious? If Osama bin Laden announced tomorrow that he was all for peace would you believe him? What if he'd already said as much but then continued his wicked ways? (How many times has Arafat renounced terrorism?!) But despite all this, given a glimpse of an opportunity, Israeli PMs have entertained him. Rabin. Peres. Netanyahu. Barak. As one Russian journalist reflected about Clinton's Camp David 2000, Barak had "unmasked" Arafat. In acceding to almost all of Arafat's demands, one would think that the least Arafat could have done was come up with a counter offer. Instead he launched the intifada. The feeling after Camp David was that Arafat didn't reject everything because he wanted 1% or even 3% more land than the 97% Israel was offering. He didn't quibble over the $30 Billion fund to comopensate and resettle Arab "refugees" (or rather, their descendents who have been imprisoned by Arab governments for 55 years, denied the rights guaranteed to all other refugee populations). So what was the problem which Barak "unmasked"? That Arafat was unable to sign a peace treaty foregoing not the 3% of the disputed territories that Israel would keep -- but the rest of pre-1967 Israel. What was exposed was the PNC's "two-phase" solution, authorized in 1974. It entailed getting what was possible by feigning peace and then to restart the war. (Perhaps this is why Arafat failed to amend the PLO Covenant, which dictates that violence is the only way to meet the objective -- the destruction of Israel, as required by Oslo.) Crazy, you say? Well, look how neatly this works with Arafat's move after Camp David: he attempted (in violation of Oslo) to enact a unilateral declaration of independece (UDI) -- the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state on less than half the territory offered him by Israel at Camp Dave, but without first having to make peace with Israel. In other words, he'd take what he could and restart the war. Fortunately, Arafat was rebuked around the world and absent any support could not enact his plan. Unwilling to crawl back to the negotiating table from this position of weakness, Arafat did what came naturally to him: he returned to violence. Let's not forget that Sharon was elected after this. Into this climate. That this is why he was elected and re-elected. It's not a sign that neither the Israeli electorate nor Sharon don't want peace or aren't willing to make compromises for it. Just that they don't trust Arafat (who at Camp David rejected the paradigm of compromise). Do you?
Hardly. However, the fact that the Palestinians, and Arafat in particular, are at fault as well doesn't by any means turn Sharon and the Israelis who support his vicious and racist actions against the Palestinians into sinless cherubs. Indeed, the fac that Sharon is willing to fight fire with fire and to demolish whole apartment blocks and kill whole families to get rid of a couple of terrorists who live there makes him part of the problem, not the solution. Israel hasn't had a premier capable of resolving the conflict since the one who was assassinated in '95, whose name I unfortunately can't bring to mind.
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Mr. tweenex. It takes 2 to tango. Were the proper Arab leadership in place, Sharon could make an agreement as easily as Begin did. By the way, have you noted that it is generally Arafat who is the first to unleash his family-killers. (By the way, wasn't it Arafat who won a Nobel Peace prize?)
So did said assassinated Israeli PM, IIRC. It may take two to tango, but only one can lead. And saying "it takes two to tango" is usually only a way of trying to say, "Well, HE's not doing anythign to help, so Why should *I*" without sounding likea a four-year old.. Building walls around people has precious little to do with tangoing in any case. Finally, I think a lot of people would be happier about the wall (after all, we built "peace walls in Northern Ireland to wall of places where half the stree twas natinalist and the other unionist) if there weren't constant claims by intgernational observers, journalists, etc. that the wall is eating up part of the occupied territories and placin it on hte israeli side of the wall. Sure, some of them may be biased, or lying, but implying that they're all lyig would be like saying there is a vast, global, anti-Semitic conspiracy. Which kinda reminds one of the Nazi claims of a vast global *Jewish* conspiracy, does it not? There never was a vast global conspiracy against the Jews, just a bunch of far too many nasty little ones one of which was tragically and disgustingly allowed to spread across Europe far enough to get way out of hand. And yes, the Arabs in and out of Palestine have a lot to answer for, but we have seen more moderate forces in the Arab world try to secure a peace settlement with Israel. These wise forces must be encouraged to pressure Arafat to accept a Palestinian deal without the right of return, because as far as the Palestinian people are concerned he is the onlyu game in town. *But* the Israelis must also stop their heavy handed tactics, which would be deemed unaceptable in any country which couldn't in the last resort turn to charges of anti-Semitism. Otherwise the Palestinians and Israelis are gong to descend into an ever deeper well of mutual hatred. The British experience in Northern Ireland proves that terorism can only be defeated by defeating the causes of terrorism, and to do that, at some point you have to be willing to talk.
klg, either you are an idiot, or you simply cannot stand not to argue with someone whose opinions you fail to understand. I did not say that ALL Israelis are intractable, nor do I deny that many are quite reasonable and have repeatedly undertaken good-faith efforts to develop and promote peace. Also, the intractability I did mention was in the context of the Palestinians, and not Arabs in general or the Egyptians in specific. In addition, my comments were in answer to a specific question, and any comments I may have FAILED to make in regard to my perceptions of Arab nations or the Palestinian people cannot be reasonably construed to mean that I think they are blameless in the current situation. Go take your pills and if you're going to argue for the sake of arguing them I'm not going to honor you with any further response to your inanity.
21:21 IDF forces uncover explosive belt near West Bank city of Ramallah;
belt safely detonated
22:24 Undefeated Maccabi Tel Aviv basketball team beats Zalgiris Kovna
91-87 in Euroleague match in Lithuania
23:16 Iranian court convicts journalist who accused ex-minister of
murdering dissidents, hands him 1-year suspended sentence
01:09 IDF says fired, hit Palestinian man who planted roadside bomb in
West Bank city of Nablus
05:41 Yossi Beilin: Geneva Accord unlikely to succeed without support
from Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat
07:31 Al Jazeera: Egypt wants Palestinian factions to sign 12-month
cease-fire, establish unified leadership
07:44 MK Ephraim Sneh: Iran is close to a point of no return in
developing nuclear weapons
07:54 Israel`s Tzipora Obzier into final 16 of Changsha tennis tournament
in China, beating local favorite Yang Shujing
10:26 Russian Emergencies Min.: 32 now thought to have died in suspected
suicide bombing on train in southern Russia
13:28 Police: Commissioner Shlomo Aharonishky visited Athens last month
to help train Olympic anti-terror forces
> we have seen more moderate forces in the Arab world try to secure a > peace settlement with Israel. When and where did this happen? I'm not denying that there are Arabs who favor this, just that they are not a "force" in that they have no power or following. As pointed out, Sharon is not in the family-murder business. Nor have entire apartment blocks been destroyed (in Rafah these were mostly abandoned buildings being used by terrorists. In Jenin much of the damage was self-inflicted). Again, one only need look at the statistics. The majority of Israeli casualties are innocent civilians. The majority of Arab casualties are their murderers. Israel attempts to minimize the death of innocent bystanders (behind whom the terrorists hide), yet the objective of the terrorists is to murder as many innocents as possible. There is no comparison here. As pointed out, Arafat rejected the paradigm of compromise at Camp David. What can Sharon offer him that Clinton & Barak did not? Do you think it will appease Arafat and lead to peace? Recall also that PA Prime Minister Abu Mazen resigned because he was unable to wrest control of the security services from Arafat. Without this, he realized he had no real power. Note (especially Gull) how the excuse that these forces have no power (ostensibly because Israel bombed some empty buildings) has withered away. As for the fence, see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/fence.html
So what's Sharon's strategy, then? "The beatings will continue until morale improves"?
Do you still beat your wife? Sharon's strategy is not to yield to terrorist threats and demands. Not to make unilateral concessions to get Arafat to pretend to negotiate. To boycott Arafat in order to develop new leaders who will be serious about ending the terrorism and making peace. It has been partially successful. Israel's counter-offensive in the Spring of 2002 led to some reforms in the PA. Arafat has grudgingly yielded, only to then put down his foot when it came to perpetuating the terrorism. Terrorism, after all, is what keeps Arafat relevant.
Mr. other, Please loosen your shorts. It will help you read and think better. Regards. klg
Re 117: So basically he's waiting for Arafat to die, at which point all the Palestinians will suddenly have a complete change of heart?
Are you suggesting that all the Palestinian Arabs are against peace and will remain intractable even after Arafat dies?
It's typical of imperialist-zionists to think that killing the leader of a group'll kill the group.
Yawn. To think I'm ignoring someone and waiting for Scott to post an on-topic comment. What is this world coming to? (For the record, I didn't even mention Arafat's death -- let alone killing him. Scott raised the matter.)
"Are you suggesting that all the Palestinian Arabs are against peace and will remain intractable even after Arafat dies?" Sometimes that seems to be your position, at other times you seem to be saying that Arafat is solely responsible for the mess. Of course, it's quite hard to pin you down on anything, since you'd rather just post stories about Palestinian attacks while ignoring anything bad from Israel. Hey, this is good opportunity to (again) bug you to comment on the story about the former Israeli intelligence people being sharply critical of the current Israeli policies. But I suppose you'll want to ignore that and beat some already-dead horse...
02:36 Islamic Jihad says opposes cessation of attacks on Israelis, wont
accept agreement to end armed struggle
01:50 UNESCO to publicly denounce Protocols of Elders of Zion, after book
went on display in Egypt Alexandria library
[Sigh. Alexandria was once the foremost library in the world.]
21:00 Three mortars fired at Gaza Strip settlements in Gush Katif area
20:45 IDF troops shoot dead Palestinian in restricted military zone in Gaza
Strip near Rafah
16:25 Hamas official says group opposed to comprehensive truce with Israel,
only willing to `spare civilians` from conflict
[Sadly enough, that's progress!]
16:19 Palestinians demonstrate in Nablus against Geneva Accord, burn in
effigy Yossi Beilin and Yasser Abed Rabbo
There are a lot of people in Israeli (and other intelligence services) who
disagree. All this proves is that Israel is a democracy with a free press.
(And that whenever you have 2 Jews you're likely to have 3 opinions.)
After decades of propaganda incited by Arab leaders, does anyone expect
the populace to be moderate? Recall for example that the 1929 Hebron
Massacre, which destroyed the ancient Jewish population of Judaism's
second holiest city, was instigated by the Mufti passing out falsified
pictures of Jews destroying Al Aqsa. If only there was CNN... but even
that might not help. Today the PA TV shows spliced pictures of Israeli
snipers aiming at and shooting Mohammed Al Dura (the 12-year old intifada
poster boy who in all likelihood was shot by Arab gunmen, perhaps even
intentionally in an attempt to frame Israel). This is followed by staged
appeals by Mohammed for other children to put away their toys, pick up
weapons and become martyrs.
And it gets even more confusing. Whereas the Arab masses celebrated the
9/11 attacks on the US, they believe that the attack was carried out by
Jews and Israel.
And you think my position is paradoxical?
It's not. The factual reality is that the majority of Palestinian Arabs
support even suicide bombings of innocent civilians. They say that once
peace is achieved with Israel the battle should continue. Where do they
get these ideas? From their "leadership". Which in turn feigns that it
can't make peace because the "street" wouldn't permit it -- even as it
continues to incite the people.
So where does this cycle end? It has to come from the top, from the person
who controls the guns (or the vast majority of them). Educators such as
Sari Nusseibah have to walk on egg-shells and whisper their ideas lest they
be labeled "collaborators" and find themselves killed by Arab death squads.
(This isn't a new phenomenon. I remember moderate voices within the PLO
being executed by the mainstream in the 1970s and 80s. I wouldn't be
surprised if this was also true in the 1930s and 40s.)
Unfortunately the man who controls the guns (and refuses to yield them
even to his own prime minister) is Arafat. He is the leader who has the
clout to come out and say: "Enough. We must find a solution that both
sides can live with". And here-in lies the key mistake of Oslo.
Seven years were squandered with Arafat talking peace in English yet
sending an entirely different message in Arabic: a message of never
compromising, of achieving total victory, of a million martyrs marching
on Jerusalem, that the road to Jerusalem runs through Haifa....
Then at Camp David he had the audacity to tell President Clinton that
making peace would be signing his own death warrant (because if one of
his own didn't assassinate him, one of the even more extreme terrorist
groups -- which he allowed to run rampant -- would do so.
In a tyranical dictatorship without a free press you can't really have
a grass-roots movement. First it's difficult to find people who haven't
bought the lies broadcast by the media -- and those who know better also
know how dangerous it is to stick out their necks. (Even those who
complained about children being bussed to violent riots where they were
likely to get hurt or killed were rebuked and threatened into silence.)
Why do you think that Abu Mazen resigned? Sure he was frustrated, but
he was also scared for his life and he wanted out while he still could.
The sad reality is that the only leader with the clout to make peace is
Arafat. Yet he refuses to do so. Do you think he's driving a hard bargain
while thousands of people die or do you think he's not interested in peace?
Do you think he's holding out for 98% or even 99% of the territories instead
of having established a state on 97% 3 years ago? Or does he want much more
than 100% of the disputed territories -- including Haifa and all of Israel?!
Arafat is 74 and not in the greatest of health. If he doesn't step up to
the plate, and there's no sign that he will, things will get worse. What
do you think will happen when he dies (of natural causes) if the status quo
remains more-or-less as is?
Do you think the dream of destroying Israel ("throwing the Jews into the sea")
will die with him and that a new leader will emerge who will accept peace and
compromise and establish a democratic Arab state in the territories?
Or do you think that there will be a large power vacuum that will cause a
civil war between the factions that aren't powerful enough to challenge
Fatah so long as Arafat is alive?
lk, let's discuss your evil faggotry, you fag.
That's quite a stretch... professional opinions become proof of a free press, never mind that the military seems to be having unprecented problems with internal dissent.
Scott, where you going to address #125?
11:28 DFLP proposes conditional truce based on Israel retreating to
pre-intifada positions, dismantling settlements and fence
Which just goes to show that the violence is intended on extracting
unilateral Israeli concessions -- a ransom. Who is the victim?
The who initiates and perpetuates the violence or the party attempting
to defend itself from this terrorism?
17:19 In interview, Hamas leader Yassin rejects continued existence
of Israel next to an independent Palestinian state
17:21 Hamas leader Yassin tells German magazine that a Jewish state
could be established in Europe
Which again goes to show that for the terrorist, it's not about peace
and compromise. It's about the elimination of Israel as we know it.
The ethnic cleansing war cry of "throw the Jews into the sea" has turned
into "throw the Jews 'back' to Europe". Except that a majority of Israel's
Jewish population was born in Israel and that immigrants from Europe and
their descendents are also a minority.
Back to the fundamentals, I see. Leeron, as usual I'm not going to fall for the "you have to argue *my* points and only *my* points technique".
In other words, here's a summary of #123, 125, 127, 128 & 129: Scott> 1 + 1 = 3 LK> No, 1 + 1 = 2 Scott> blah blah blah LK> Care to comment about 1+1=2? Scott> `I'm not going to fall for the "you have to argue *my* points and only *my* points technique".` The nature of a discussion, Scott, is to make points and counter-points. If you didn't want to discuss a point, why did YOU raise it?! The sad reality is that unable to defend his errant and irresponsible statements, scott attempts to change the subject. He wants me to discus his latest point (entered to divert and distract), rather than his previous one. Scott wants us to pay no attention to his argument behind the curtain, he has a new argument.... Go ahead, Scott. Prove me wrong, if you can. Let's see if you can support what you said in #123 given what I said in #125.
I like how your analogy about the curtain made absolutely no sense.
If things were as simple as Leeron portrays ir 130 we'd have no argument at all.
Re #132: Simple, Scott? (I know what's simple, and it isn't
Leeron's stated view of things...) Leeron presents a nuanced
picture of the conflict, including international issues. In
contrast you only seem to be able to say "Israel BAD".
NPR this morning noted (without analysis or comment) that statements
by Hamas and Islamic Jihad declared that the two murder groups would
stop suicide attacks against targets in Israel. NPR also noted that
there had been no successful suicide attacks in the last two months.
Are we supposed to believe that they have finally seen the light, or
is it more reasonable to conclude that they have just been weakened
too much to carry out attacks and need a convenient excuse? Anyone
want to take bets on what they'll do if they are given a period of
relief in which to regroup?
For a very sobering and cogent analysis of why the USA is attacked by
Al Qaeda, Israel is attacked by the various Islamic terror groups and
why their parlance refers to Israel and the USA as the Little Satan
and Great Satan respectively, I suggest this eye-opener:
http://www.gbgm-umc.org/trinityumctn/WhyAttacked.htm
A slightly editted quote:
A culture's world view operates far, far below the
conscious level of its citizens, but it forms the
foundation of a culture's structures of common life and
community. Threats or challenges to world views evoke
very strong resistance from individuals. When persons
are able to vocalize the feelings of threat of their
people, they easily gain a following. (In Germany after
the Weimar Republic, Adolf Hitler vocalized quite
fluently what the great majority of Germans were
feeling.)
...
The primary motivation of the Taliban, bin Laden and Al
Qaeda springs from their extreme religious
fundamentalism. This has been pointed out by numerous
Arab/Muslim commentators for years. They see western
culture as such an extreme threat that they are willing
to commit suicide to turn it back.
...
The threat that the West (the USA being the foremost
western nation) presents to the Taliban and their
religious ilk is the West's world view, scientific
epistemology. They perceive our scientific-technological
world view as an overwhelming threat not merely to their
way of life, but as an actual affront to Allah, and
indeed, reality itself.
It appears that this was written some two years ago, but the astute
reader will note that it explains why Al Qaeda has found it good and
righteous to murder dozens in Baghdad, Istanbul and Riyadh as well
as Americans and Jews wherever they are. The fundamentalists view
western thought as inherently corrupting and evil, and westernized
Muslims are as much or more a danger to their faith as Americans.
The fundies have targeted all who accept modern modes of thought for
death. They've set the rules of the conflict: they will not stop
until they are dead or otherwise incapacitated. People who argue
that we should not do our best to incapacitate them argue for suicide.
Russ fat.
Russ, are you saying that we should "do our best to incapacitate" (what the heck does that mean, bombing?) people based on their religion? Got a plan for not killing the people who aren't a threat? Got a plan for what will happen if "we" target a religion for our next war?
Again, discussion is a two way street. Scott wishes to say things without being responsible for them. Without supporting them when requested, because he alleges that I'm trying to control the conversation and discuss my points. Despite the fact that he brought up thes points. See #123 and #125. So just as Scott cut-and-paste propaganda from electonicintifada.com (without attribution) and then beat around the bush for weeks rather than engage the points he raised (ostensibly because he didn't have time), now he does the same. He expresses his simple and foolish opinion, but then can't stand behind what he says when counter-arguments are made. Scott, if you wish to participate in discussion, you have to discuss the issues. You can't just speak your opinion and then cut and run. Well, I suppose you can. You've just proven that. Perhaps its time to put you back on my twit filter and deprive you of your perverted joy of heckling someone who is deeply affected by and concerned about an issue.
13:26 Qureia: That Palestinian dialogue took place in itself is a success...
message to world we are united behind our cause
Except they failed to even agree to a cease-fire, let alone to peace.
What is this "cause"?
15:10 1,200 Palestinians, dozens masked and armed, demonstrate in Rafah
refugee camp in Gaza against Geneva Accord
15:35 Hamas, other Palestinian factions say truce terms should not
authorize Qureia to hold talks with Israel
This confirms that this is a "Muslim hudna". A truce not to advance peace
but to allow the terrorists to rebuild their infrastructure and to renew
their murderous attacks when they are ready.
16:37 Senior Hamas official: Hamas and four other factions reject Egypt`s
proposal for comprehensive cease-fire with Israel
19:23 Qureia leaves cease-fire talks in Cairo after it becomes clear no
agreement on final statement to be reached now
19:41 Palestinian source: Final statement from Cairo talks will not mention
halt to attacks on civilians or empowering PM Qureia
Russ fat.
Gads... Leeron, you're still making an issue out of my sources, when you've also claimed you don't denigrate sources? How long ago was that, and how many other points have you ducked in the meantime? Ah yes, it's time for another convenient Leeron Memory Lapse, where he can somehow keep track of the entire history of the argument and yet forget each and every occasion where he was proved wrong? Of course, by his rules if I wanted to argue "fairly" I'd be happy to waste my time dredging up those arguments yet again, only to have him jump off to some other position for me to "prove". P.S. Russ: You and Leeron both basically agree on the same thing: That the entire fault rests with Arabs.
(Don't forget about us!)
Russ fat.
Scott, you only prove my point. You are incapable of sustaining a discussion about issues. Instead you give us diversions and ad hominems -- as you just demonstrated. If you have nothing to say about #125 referencing your #123, or if you have nothing to say about today's news and my comments in #137, then rather than continue your twit behavior try the "pass" option instead of "respond".
Russ fat.
Damn. Once again Leeron sucked me into a pointless argument. When will I learn not to take the bait?
AHAHAA< OR< MORE APTLY AROUND LEERON< WHEN EEVR WILL YOU LEARN NOT TO TAKE IT IN THE BUTT?!
Scott, regarding your questions posed to me in #123:
S> Hey, this is good opportunity to (again) bug you to comment on the story
S> about the former Israeli intelligence people being sharply critical of the
S> current Israeli policies. But I suppose you'll want to ignore that and
S> beat some already-dead horse...
There are a lot of people in Israeli (and other intelligence services) who
disagree. All this proves is that Israel is a democracy with a free press.
(And that whenever you have 2 Jews you're likely to have 3 opinions.)
LK> "Are you suggesting that all the Palestinian Arabs are against peace and
LK> will remain intractable even after Arafat dies?"
S> Sometimes that seems to be your position, at other times you seem to be
S> saying that Arafat is solely responsible for the mess.
After decades of propaganda incited by Arab leaders, does anyone expect
the populace to be moderate? Recall for example that the 1929 Hebron
Massacre, which destroyed the ancient Jewish population of Judaism's
second holiest city, was instigated by the Mufti passing out falsified
pictures of Jews destroying Al Aqsa. If only there was CNN... but even
that might not help. Today the PA TV shows spliced pictures of Israeli
snipers aiming at and shooting Mohammed Al Dura (the 12-year old intifada
poster boy who in all likelihood was shot by Arab gunmen, perhaps even
intentionally in an attempt to frame Israel). This is followed by staged
appeals by Mohammed for other children to put away their toys, pick up
weapons and become martyrs.
And it gets even more confusing. Whereas the Arab masses celebrated the
9/11 attacks on the US, they believe that the attack was carried out by
Jews and Israel.
And you think my position is paradoxical?
It's not. The factual reality is that the majority of Palestinian Arabs
support even suicide bombings of innocent civilians. They say that once
peace is achieved with Israel the battle should continue. Where do they
get these ideas? From their "leadership". Which in turn feigns that it
can't make peace because the "street" wouldn't permit it -- even as it
continues to incite the people.
So where does this cycle end? It has to come from the top, from the person
who controls the guns (or the vast majority of them). Educators such as
Sari Nusseibah have to walk on egg-shells and whisper their ideas lest they
be labeled "collaborators" and find themselves killed by Arab death squads.
(This isn't a new phenomenon. I remember moderate voices within the PLO
being executed by the mainstream in the 1970s and 80s. I wouldn't be
surprised if this was also true in the 1930s and 40s.)
Unfortunately the man who controls the guns (and refuses to yield them
even to his own prime minister) is Arafat. He is the leader who has the
clout to come out and say: "Enough. We must find a solution that both
sides can live with". And here-in lies the key mistake of Oslo.
Seven years were squandered with Arafat talking peace in English yet
sending an entirely different message in Arabic: a message of never
compromising, of achieving total victory, of a million martyrs marching
on Jerusalem, that the road to Jerusalem runs through Haifa....
Then at Camp David he had the audacity to tell President Clinton that
making peace would be signing his own death warrant (because if one of
his own didn't assassinate him, one of the even more extreme terrorist
groups -- which he allowed to run rampant -- would do so.
In a tyrannical dictatorship without a free press you can't really have
a grass-roots movement. First it's difficult to find people who haven't
bought the lies broadcast by the media -- and those who know better also
know how dangerous it is to stick out their necks. (Even those who
complained about children being bussed to violent riots where they were
likely to get hurt or killed were rebuked and threatened into silence.)
Why do you think that Abu Mazen resigned? Sure he was frustrated, but
he was also scared for his life and he wanted out while he still could.
The sad reality is that the only leader with the clout to make peace is
Arafat. Yet he refuses to do so. Do you think he's driving a hard bargain
while thousands of people die or do you think he's not interested in peace?
Do you think he's holding out for 98% or even 99% of the territories instead
of having established a state on 97% 3 years ago? Or does he want much more
than 100% of the disputed territories -- including Haifa and all of Israel?!
Arafat is 74 and not in the greatest of health. If he doesn't step up to
the plate, and there's no sign that he will, things will get worse. What
do you think will happen when he dies (of natural causes) if the status quo
remains more-or-less as is?
Do you think the dream of destroying Israel ("throwing the Jews into the sea")
will die with him and that a new leader will emerge who will accept peace and
compromise and establish a democratic Arab state in the territories?
Or do you think that there will be a large power vacuum that will cause a
civil war between the factions that aren't powerful enough to challenge
Fatah so long as Arafat is alive?
Leeron, I'm well aware you believe that you're arguing to a bigger audience of unknown web surfers. I suppose that's why you find it worthwhile to spend great amounts of time on this thread.
Scott, I've got no misconceptions about Grex and its readership. Some people talk about model trains, other about cooking, and I about this. Your hobby seems to be harassing people while avoiding issues of discussion. If you're not interested in discussing this issue, then show us that you do have better things to do and opt to "pass" rather than "respond". Spending endless time telling us you don't have time to respond to the issues being discussed isn't fooling anyone but yourself.
14:07 Islamic Jihad leader in Hebron confesses to having contacted
Jihad headquarters in Damascus
09:08 Hamas official: Every centimeter of Palestine is conquered land,
therefore attacks against Israel will continue
This is the reason Arafat rejected the Clinton compromise.
Because even 100% wasn't good enough, which is why he wasn't willing to
compromise at 97%.
So let's say that tomorrow Israel withdrew to the lines envisioned by
President Clinton (a withdrawal from 97% of the territories). Or even
back to the untenable Armistice lines of 1949 (the pre-1967 "green line").
Would Arab terrorism against Israel stop?
No.
Would Arafat suddenly find the means to prevent such terrorism?
He has the means now and refuses to employ them.
Why would that change?
Especially after they just "proved" that terrorism works?
Would it be more difficult for Israel to defend itself from this terror?
Yes.
In other words, if Israel were to "play nice" to the extreme, the results
would be -- more Israeli deaths.
Once again, Scott shows his inability to understand English. >Russ, are you saying that we should "do our best to incapacitate" (what the >heck does that mean, bombing?) people It means putting them in circumstances where they cannot attack us. Prisons are effective, as is killing them. Another part of this problem is that our economic system has given a huge amount of money and influence to groups and sects (the House of Saud, Wahhabism) which use it to promote hatred of us. We can and should take action to remove this money, which would deflate their influence. >based on their religion? Gee, Scott, the people who bomb women's health clinics and murder doctors are obviously motivated by religion. Should we leave them alone because of that, or pursue them and jail them? What about those whose religion says that white Europeans are the Chosen People and all other races should be expelled from the USA or stamped out? (World Church of the Creator holds this, if I'm not mistaken.) Should such groups be infiltrated and broken up, like the Southern Poverty Law Center bankrupted the Ku Klux Klan? Or does religion give carte blanche to do anything in the name of <insert diety>? I think these people should be fought with force when they try to use force. Anyone who acts on those religious tenets should be pursued relentlessly, captured and tried if possible, killed if they cannot otherwise be prevented from escaping. They should be incapacitated, if by no other means than keeping them running. And their front groups and sympathizers should be held responsible for the violent acts that they promote. Do you think it is WRONG to treat murderous fundamentalist Muslims the same way we treat murderous fundamentalist Christians? Are you a bigot who thinks that Americans/westerners/Israelis carry some original sin and ought to be doormats for every wacko sect that likes to see other people's blood flowing? This is not a rhetorical question, your repeated refusal to address questions like the above does not permit many other conclusions. Re #139: >You and Leeron both basically agree on the same thing: That the >entire fault rests with Arabs. I talk about fundamentalist murderers, and you generalize this to "the Arabs" as if the two are synonymous. What a lack of brainpower (or honesty) it must take to miss such an obvious distinction.
I'm outta this argument... regardless of who's right, I lose respect by taking on you knuckleheads.
<chuckle>
That's exactly why you lose respect, Scott. Because you "tak[e] on... knuckleheads" instead of taking on the issues that were being discussed. (Some of which you raised but then dropped.)
15:01 Security forces foiled attempted suicide attack in Rosh Ha`ayin on
Monday
08:37 Gunmen fire at IDF troops near Gaza settlement and at Israeli cars on
Netzarim road
04:04 Arab-Americans picket outside Seeds of Peace award dinner in Michigan
to honor Shimon Peres
06:19 Al-Quds al-Arabi: Al-Qaida planning to carry out terror attack
in two months to `shake up the Middle East`
01:23 PA officials name two Hamas men killed in West Bank blast as
Jihad Dufesh, Hathem Kawasme; search on for third man
It bugs you to have your conscience and politics used against you, doesn't it Scott? It hurts to see that you are what you despise. Running away will remove the immediate pangs.
16:50 Officials: Egypt, Iran presidents to meet Wednesday for highest-level
talks since Tehran`s 1979 Islamic revolution
16:17 Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom will hold talks with his Palestinian
counterpart Nabil Sha`ath on Wed. in Rome
15:17 Israel not on U.S. list of 63 countries eligible to compete for $18.6
billion in Iraqi reconstruction contracts
14:37 Man arrested with explosives near U.S. embassy in Beirut
14:23 French chief rabbi joins call for Chirac to stand firm against growing
movement to ban Muslim veil in schools, offices
13:32 IDF troops arrest 17-year-old Tanzim militant in Jenin who was
planning to carry out suicide attack inside Israel
Re 157: Russ, you may be good with technical issues, but when it comes to people you're a drooling idiot. I'll give you one hint: Fanaticism *thrives* under persecution.
Re #157: >Fanaticism *thrives* under persecution. I'll give you a clue: the persecution is of the peaceful middle by dictators on one hand and the Islamist extreme on the other. The situation has parallels in Syria, Egypt, Algeria and all across the region; Israel has nothing to do with it. Israel has shown that it has no military purpose in the territories beyond stopping attacks on Israelis. The various Palestinian factions show by both words and actions that their purpose is to destroy Israel, or at least murder as many Israelis as they can. If you think that this makes Israel worse than Fatah (let alone Hamas and Hezbollah), you're insane.
Re 159: Please don't put words in my mouth, Russ. Doesn't help your arguments any.
Re: #159: I've seen no evidence that anyone contributing to this item thinks Israel is worse, or even as bad as, Fatah. However, I'll reiterate the pint that the present Israeli adeministration's policies and actions are fuelling the fire.
Except that this "fire" has been burning for 6 decades in general and 4 months in particular BEFORE the election of Sharon. As discussed in #125, Sharon's main point is that the PA must stop harboring and funding terrorists before peace negotiations resume. That's the logical lesson of Oslo. Arafat can't feed the fire and pretend to be a fire-fighter at the same time. And if Arafat has no mandate to make peace (as he claimed at Camp David 2000, suggesting to President Clinton that compromise would get him killed), then why "negotiate" with someone who can only demand concessions but can't give any in return? (Historical note: Churchill wrote something to the effect that Arab leaders viewed negotiations as a forum in which to list demands rather than make compromise -- which they equated with surrender.)
Churchill was probably wrong about as many things as he was right about. Didn't the present Intifada start when a then-internationally-obscure but hated (on the palestinian side) general-but-politician walked across Temple Mount knwing it would provoke Muslims? Wasn't this politician Sharon? Hmm.
No, the intifada began prior to Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount,
and Arafat had already ordered his Tanzim chiefs to perpetrate violence.
The International Sharm A Sheikh Fact Finding mission (headed by Sen.
Mitchell, himself of Arab descent) concluded that Sharon's visit did
not precipitate the violence.
In fact, Two days before Sharon's visit the official PA newspaper said:
Had it not been for this blood, the world would never have
been interested in us...our national duty is to continue the
confrontation, the intifadah, continue to sacrifice our martyrs.
PA Justice Minister Abu Midden added:
Violence is just around the corner and the Palestinians are
willing to sacrifice even 5,000 casualties.
Furthermore, it has been reported that Israeli Minister of Internal Security
and Acting Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami were promised by Jibril Rajoub,
head of PA Preventive Security, that there would be no reaction to Likud MK
Arik Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount as long as Sharon did not attempt to
enter the mosque itself.
There have been many false report about the incident, but the fact is that
Sharon visited on a Thursday (not Friday, the Islamic holy day) and he did
NOT enter the mosque area.
Some believe that Rajoub intentionally lied to allow this pretext to happen.
In any event, it appears as if the propaganda ploy worked.
Of course, isn't it ridiculous to assert that 3+ years of violence was
started and continues because a particular Jew visited the Temple Mount?
Wouldn't a proper reaction have been a peaceful demonstration?
Re your last point: undoubtedly. "general-but-politician" in my response above should of course be "general-turned-politician".
Problem is that peaceful demonstrations cannot achieve Arafat's agenda.
Which is why the PLO Covenant, despite his Oslo commitment, remains
unmodified and rejects non-violent solutions. The same reason why the
Hamas and Jihad terrorists are against the peace process.
07:13 IDF troops shoot and kill armed Palestinian in West Bank village of
Na`amah, near Ramallah
08:08 Security Services dealing with 42 specific terror alerts;
steps to ease restrictions on Palestinians will remain intact
08:10 Palestinians fire five mortars at Neveh Dekalim settlement in Gaza
11:57 Iraqi Kurdish ruler: SADDAM HUSSEIN CAPTURED IN TIKRIT (Probably due to lack of confirmation, neither ABC, CNN nor the BBC are reporting this.)
They are now. Preictably, No. 10 is going wild. Interestingly, the White House response so far has been quite muted.
big deal. did they get the guys that helped the saudis blow up the WTC yet?
No, but expect to see "evidence" of Weapons of Mass Disappearance very soon.
See item 217 for discussion of Hussein's capture. So I'm going to turn this discussion to its implication on the Arab-Israeli conflict. This is sure to be a huge moral blow to the terrorist rejectionists. (The material blow, in the form of loss of funding and support, had already hadppened with the fall of the regime.) Yet now their hero has been captured -- and without even a fight. Without him even martyring himself (despite having a hand-gun on him). As one talking-head on CNN stated, Saddam was not a "warrior" but a "survivor" (he had others to do the fighting and dying martyrdoms for him). Will the Palestinian Arabs realize that the same is actually true about their own cowardly leaders? Hopefully this will move the peace process forward. (Recall that Madrid and Oslo began after Saddam's defeat 10 years ago.)
00:16 French PM Raffarin surprised at gov`t panel`s proposal to make Yom
Kippur and Eid al-Fitr official state holidays
01:08 IDF arrests 4 drivers, impounds 4 trucks during efforts by settlers
to move 6 caravans to illegal outpost of Migron
07:35 Arrow anti-missile missile test successful - intercepts and destroys
target at high altitude
09:59 Security forces arrest four wanted terror suspects in Nablus;
two Islamic Jihad men nabbed near Ramallah
10:22 Shin Bet chief Avi Dichter:
It has been proven that the security fence prevents bloodshed
Iran is the world`s leading sponsor of terrorism and is constantly
trying to attack Israel
12:42 Iran`s supreme leader says George W. Bush and Ariel Sharon would
suffer the same fate as Saddam Hussein
08:48 The Independent: Senior French policeman says Princess Diana was
pregnant at time of death
09:25 Majority of Jordanian parliament condemns Saddam Hussein`s arrest
09:44 Lake Kinneret water level fails to rise over weekend despite rains
Re 09:25 <twenex raises several eyeborws, two of which, incidently, seem to be lk's>
This response has been erased.
02:07 Two IDF officers killed in Gaza: Capt. Haggai Bibi, 24, of Ma`aleh
Adumim and Lieut. Alex Weissman, 23, of Afula
03:31 Palestinians: 40 IDF tanks, vehicles enter Rafah refugee camp on
Gaza-Egypt border; 1 Palestinian said killed, 5 hurt
05:13 Egyptian FM Maher leaves hospital in Jerusalem, returns to Cairo,
after attack by Palestinians at Temple Mount
[Note: He had gone to pray at this Muslim holy site and was attacked
by Muslims, evidently opposing his efforts to mediate a ceasefire.
He was rescued by Israeli forces.]
07:39 Four Israeli backpackers freed by Colombian rebels celebrate their
release at Israeli Embassy in Bogota
08:40 IDF troops arrest wanted PFLP militant in West Bank village near Nablus
09:18 Gunmen open fire on private vehicle 20km west of Eilat
You have several choices: