Grex Agora47 Conference

Item 168: Bush Visits Britain.

Entered by twenex on Tue Nov 11 17:11:13 2003:

"President" George W Bush plans to visit Great Britain this
month. Predictably, a row has erupted, as the (Amjerican)
Secret Service apparently asked for large areas of London to
be cordoned off to provide security for the President -
something not even accorded our own Queen or Prime Minister.
Furthermore, Governor Blair has appealed to people not to
"embarass" him and his betht fwend by protesting over the
War in Iraq.

Yankee Poodle went to town,
riding on a crony,
"Get lost! George Bush -
"We want you out!
"And F*** Off Phoney Tony!"
70 responses total.

#1 of 70 by happyboy on Tue Nov 11 17:16:37 2003:

:)


#2 of 70 by willcome on Tue Nov 11 21:18:24 2003:

I don't see why you have to be so stubbornly British, twenex.


#3 of 70 by tod on Tue Nov 11 22:05:00 2003:

This response has been erased.



#4 of 70 by naftee on Tue Nov 11 22:48:14 2003:

Bush should go on a two-day trip to London and Paris.  In Ontario, that is.


#5 of 70 by other on Wed Nov 12 00:41:06 2003:

No wonder Bush so rarely makes appearance outside the U.S.  He can't 
control the opposition's exposure to the media outside his own 
jurisdiction.


#6 of 70 by clees on Wed Nov 12 07:05:12 2003:

Nah, he's just chicken.


#7 of 70 by sj2 on Wed Nov 12 08:17:21 2003:

Bush goes exclusive
===================

Peace protesters planning a march to mark the US president's state 
visit next week say police are planning to seal off large parts of 
central London. Campaigners are planning a "Stop Bush" protest march 
through central London on 20 November, but say the Metropolitan Police 
are trying to block them. 

As President Bush and his wife are due to stay at Buckingham Palace, 
there has been speculation much of the Mall and Whitehall will be 
closed off along with parts of the City. 

Scotland Yard says it is not revealing details of road closures yet 
for security reasons, but says it will facilitate lawful 
demonstrations. 

But the Stop the War Coalition says it will not accept any route that 
avoids Parliament. 

It follows a row between the Metropolitan Police and civil rights 
campaigners over the use of anti-terror powers against protesters at 
an arms fair in September. 

Campaign spokesman John Rees told BBC London: "It seems as if they 
(the police) are going to comply with the White House's request to 
create an exclusion zone in central London during George Bush's visit. 
 
The president's last visit was met with some protest "And they have 
told the Stop the War Coalition they won't agree to a route that goes 
through Parliament Square or Whitehall." 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/3259005.stm
=====================================================================

Why does he want to goto London? If he wants to meet the queen and his 
pet dog, can't they be summoned to the whitehouse? And he can always 
address the British parliament over videophone. This will save them 
from embarrasing protests too.


#8 of 70 by mcnally on Wed Nov 12 08:32:43 2003:

 > It follows a row between the Metropolitan Police and civil rights 
 > campaigners over the use of anti-terror powers against protesters at 
 > an arms fair in September. 
 
 arms fair?


#9 of 70 by kenscann on Wed Nov 12 11:59:52 2003:

it was like a guns and bombs bring and buy sale...I really hate been British
some times!!



#10 of 70 by sj2 on Wed Nov 12 15:42:03 2003:

Btw, the australians did bow to the demand on an exlcusion zone around 
their parliament for Bush.


#11 of 70 by twenex on Wed Nov 12 15:43:17 2003:

re #2: probably because:

1) I'm British;
2) I'm stubborn!

;-P


#12 of 70 by twenex on Wed Nov 12 15:45:01 2003:

re: 9:

Heh.

re: 11: Not surprising. John Howard (The Australian
PM) makes Thatcher look like a bleeding-heart liberal.


#13 of 70 by tod on Wed Nov 12 18:15:43 2003:

This response has been erased.



#14 of 70 by janc on Sun Nov 16 22:19:33 2003:

Please jeer at him as much as possible while he is there.  Preferably everyone
in England should jeer continuously, day and night, so long as he is present,
so that no TV cameras can show anyone not jeering.  Except the Queen, I guess.
I don't suppose she's even capable of jeering.


#15 of 70 by twenex on Sun Nov 16 22:37:49 2003:

ROTFLMAO. No, really. right on.

It wouldn't be seemly for the Queen to be caught jeering.

I bet she thinks he's a jackass though /grin.


#16 of 70 by other on Sun Nov 16 23:01:11 2003:

The Queen should privately take President Rove aside and inform him 
that if he doesn't clean up his act, he'll NEVER get Mr. Bush 
elected.


#17 of 70 by rcurl on Sun Nov 16 23:05:14 2003:

You  think the Queen wants to help reelect Bush?


#18 of 70 by other on Sun Nov 16 23:19:37 2003:

Good point...


#19 of 70 by janc on Mon Nov 17 00:58:57 2003:

I'm sure expressing a preference for or against a political candidate would
come pretty close to jeering in the Queen's book.  The Queen will be correct,
so the rest of the country won't have to be.


#20 of 70 by twenex on Mon Nov 17 05:01:31 2003:

Yeah. Hooray for Lizzie. The country'll be a very different place when she's
gone *sniff*.


#21 of 70 by gull on Mon Nov 17 16:02:27 2003:

I expect Bush to completely ignore the protesters.  He's focused on
getting re-elected, now, and there are very few people in Britain who
are eligible to vote for him. ;>


#22 of 70 by twenex on Mon Nov 17 18:02:20 2003:

Really? Darn, and I was all set to vote for that Dean guy. Oh well...


#23 of 70 by other on Mon Nov 17 21:07:53 2003:

It's not about him recognizing or ignoring them, it's about the 
media giving them exposure while they're covering him.


#24 of 70 by twenex on Mon Nov 17 21:40:45 2003:

Actually, it's about them being able (or not) to gain
direct access to the President to peacefully protest,
whether or not he or the media take a blind bit of notice.


#25 of 70 by tsty on Tue Nov 18 06:00:25 2003:

re #14 .. GEEZE!!! janc, clinton haters were never *taht* rabid! wtf has
gotten into you? didn't get enough of a tax cut? no children tax rebate?
/
po


#26 of 70 by gull on Tue Nov 18 14:26:30 2003:

It's easier to hate someone who's actually incompetent than it is to
hate someone whose personal life is a bit slimy.


#27 of 70 by twenex on Tue Nov 18 14:31:44 2003:

This is very true.


#28 of 70 by bru on Tue Nov 18 14:36:07 2003:

Problem is, bish is not  (imnsho) incompetent.  He just doesn't do wht you
want done.  He does what I want done.

I never wanted any country to oppose the president when Clinton was president.
He was a slimey assed rapist as far as I was concerned, but he was the
president.  AS leader of our country, he deserves better respect


#29 of 70 by twenex on Tue Nov 18 14:53:33 2003:

Like the respect Clinton gave the (admittedly totally useless) John Major when
he visited the US, by watching the baseball instead of meeting the PM?

Since our position is that our way, rather than his way, of running the
country, is the right way to do it, we're right in saying he's incompetent
of running the country the way we want, which is the same as our saying he's
incompetent, period.


#30 of 70 by bru on Tue Nov 18 15:15:18 2003:

I hadn't heard that.  Anopther reason to believe Clinton was incompetent.


#31 of 70 by gull on Tue Nov 18 15:36:42 2003:

Clinton was pretty well-liked overseas, though.  I'm not saying that's
necessarily a good way to judge a President, but it was true.  He was a
much better diplomat than Bush.

Partisan politics aside, what I see a lot in the Bush administration is
a lack of central leadership.  Different parts of his administration
squabble like children and we end up with no coherent policy.  Bush just
isn't strong enough to rein them in, most of the time.

I also fear that political calculation is starting to overcome good
judgement when it comes to Iraq.  We really, really can't afford to
leave before the job is done, but it's starting to look like we're going
to pull out in time for good election year visuals of troops coming home
and leave Iraq to the terrorists.


#32 of 70 by rcurl on Tue Nov 18 19:28:04 2003:

I judge Bush incompetent. He appears to think and speak only cliches,
seemingly provided for him. The result is no appearance of consideration
of the long term consequences of any of his declarations. He also lets his
neoconservative administration change previous policies, often in secret,
with damaging consequences. We see this in many arenas - energy,
environmental, military, economic, and others. 



#33 of 70 by twenex on Tue Nov 18 20:32:09 2003:

"Speak...cliches"? "Stumble over cliches", do you mean?

"The problem with our imports is that most of them come outside the country"

"These weapons have been deceiving us for decades" (on a British interview)

The problem with your President is that he's in office.


#34 of 70 by gull on Tue Nov 18 21:30:01 2003:

You forgot my favorite:

"They want to run Social Security like it's some kind of federal program."


#35 of 70 by twenex on Tue Nov 18 21:45:20 2003:

re: #34: Hehehehe. I really laughed at that one.


#36 of 70 by rcurl on Wed Nov 19 00:33:40 2003:

I meant "speak only cliches". His grammatically and syntactically correct
statements are nevertheless still cliches: "Bring them on" (they did).
"We will prevail", etc.


#37 of 70 by sj2 on Wed Nov 19 06:13:08 2003:

I think the world mostly forgave Clinton for his sexual escapades. 
Bush at his best seems clueless and at his worst an idiot. Bush really 
makes you wonder who's running the show in the world's largest and 
most powerful economy. Scares you too, coz US policy and actions 
affect a large part of the world. And he's certainly turned the 
sympathy US had of the world after 9/11 into hatred by botching the 
whole Iraq thing.


#38 of 70 by bru on Wed Nov 19 14:08:45 2003:

Well, I disagree.  I think Bush is showing himself to be intelligent and
capable.  He just doesn't do things the way you want them done.

Whatever sympathy he the U.S. had after 9/11 ... what sympathy?  And what
would you suggest we do?  The U.N. is showing itself more and more to be the
whore of the underpriveleged adn the shelter of the incompetent.  If they
don't have enough sense to realize that terrorism is growing because they
aren't doing anything to stop it other than passing resolution after
resolution because they can't do anything else because their ranks are filled
with terrorists in the making.


#39 of 70 by gull on Wed Nov 19 15:06:23 2003:

I don't know if Bush is unintelligent.  I'm willing to allow that he
might be a fairly bright man.  But, as he said himself during his
campaign, he's not much for studying policy or history.  This willful
ignorance has caused a lot of problems.  Remember when he accidentally
changed our Taiwan policy with a poor choice of words in a speech,
leaving the rest of his administration to backpedal furiously and try to
explain away his remarks?  Remember when he declared we were on a
"crusade"?  He just doesn't have any desire to understand the important
but subtle parts of his job.


#40 of 70 by mynxcat on Wed Nov 19 15:55:22 2003:

Not to forget his remarks about gays being "sinners" and how we should 
not judge them blah blah blah. 



#41 of 70 by twenex on Wed Nov 19 17:12:53 2003:

I don't think theat the world necessarily forgave Clinton for being an
adulterer. I think it's more that the world recognizes that a man can be a
philanderer, but still be a good leader, whereas a man who chooses not to read
books about policy and history  and then chooses to try and make both is,
well, if not stupid, then plainly ignorant.

The world did have a lot of sympathy for the Us after 9/11,. bruce. You don't
get Arafat giving blood for the unfortunate every day; nor is it an everyday
occurence for the Palace to summon a foreign country's Ambassador and play
their national anthem at the Changing of the Palace Guard. It took the Palace
a week to lower the Royal standard at Buckingham Palace to show respect for
Diana after she died, for Christ's sake, even though the public had been
demanding it for a week. I'd say the fact they changed the anthem
spontaneously and with no hint of a request from the US authorities shows
enormous sensititivy to America's sorrow. Most people in Britain today still
feel that way, even Bush has gone a long way to eroding that sympathy because
of his actions over Iraq, steel sanctions, the environment, etc. - though of
course there will always be that hardcore of Anti-Americans, just as there
will unforunately always be a hard core of anti-Semites.


#42 of 70 by sj2 on Wed Nov 19 17:41:29 2003:

Re #38, Umm ... I hate to start the debate all over again. But the so 
called *coalition* has backtracked on the WMD issue. Going from WMDs to 
programme for WMD development. Also, a clear lack of evidence linking 
terrorism and Saddam Hussein. Now the US/British administration is 
trumpeting the democracy item.

Both Bush and Blair publicly lied about the threats and now are hiding 
behind their intelligence services by making the intelligence community 
the scapegoat. 

The UN definitely isn't a perfect organisation. However, the US isn't 
helping the situation by undermining it. The US uses the UN when it 
needs it and throws it in the dustbin when it doesn't. So much for 
multi-laterism.

As for US's concern for terrorism, we have been facing terrorism for 
almost two decades now. US support has only been on paper. Infact, the 
US is now actively funding and arming the Pakistanis. 

As for repressive dictators, the US doesn't have any trouble dealing 
with dictators in Saudi, Oman, Pakistan, Egypt, UAE, Jordan?? While 
these dictators violently suppress political opponents and violate 
human rights they are friendly  to the US. As against this, Saddam 
Hussein didn't favour the US. Why these double-standards?? The US even 
used its veto in the UN to block a resolution condemning Saddam's use 
of chemical weapons to slaughter Kurds in the late 80s. 

As for WMDs, it was interesting to hear an ex-chief of US armed forces 
point out that the bulk of WMD threat comes from tonnes of unsecured 
nuclear-grade uranium in Russia and former Soviet states. Many of these 
states border Europe. 

http://nuclearno.com/text.asp?4501
An estimated 20 tons of highly enriched uranium currently is stored at 
such locations in about 40 countries, from Russia and other former 
Soviet republics to Libya and the Congo Republic. 

Don't you think this threat dwarfs any alleged WMD *development* 
programme by Iraq? Iraq under Saddam Hussein was anyday more sane that 
the Congo republic!! Don't you think so?

I am not putting up a theory here of why the US attacked Iraq. All I am 
saying is do your fact-checking before you trust what your government 
tells you. Maybe what the US does is demanded by realpolitik. And thats 
perfectly understandable. But I wish they would atleast get off the 
high moral ground.


#43 of 70 by flem on Wed Nov 19 18:11:56 2003:

I've long since stopped caring whether or not Bush is incompetent or
not.  It doesn't really matter to me whether he's just a puppet or an
active participant.   Either way, the things that he and his
administration are doing to this country are very disagreeable to me.  


#44 of 70 by rcurl on Wed Nov 19 18:17:16 2003:

I think that what he is doing is made worse by the fact that he is
an incompetent puppet. Why that matters is because it suggests what
disagreeable things he will do in the future. 


#45 of 70 by twenex on Wed Nov 19 18:43:17 2003:

It's also possible grounds for impeachment on the grounds
the Constitutionm sets forth, rather than on the fact that
a couple Republicans don't like the fact that he's been
caught doing somethin g many politicians on both sides are
probably at anyway.


#46 of 70 by aruba on Wed Nov 19 19:52:35 2003:

Re #42: Lots of interseting stuff in that post, sj2, thanks for entering
it.  We Americans could use more exposue to how the world views us.


#47 of 70 by twenex on Wed Nov 19 22:21:54 2003:

I agree that sj2 makes some good points


#48 of 70 by sj2 on Thu Nov 20 06:21:39 2003:

Hehe, well!! You can always count on me for bashing the US ;)


#49 of 70 by rcurl on Thu Nov 20 07:08:04 2003:

I watched the Queen's and Bush's speeches on TV. The queen had several
paragraphs on each page she read: Bush had fractions of sentences 
on each of his, so had many more pages. I guess that without a teleprompter
he could not read his text at arm's length. Does he not require glasses
at any distance? 


#50 of 70 by sj2 on Thu Nov 20 14:21:49 2003:

I think the important question is, can he read?? ;)

Bush has a peculiar style of reading. He reads a sentence or two and 
then looks at the crowd. The look on his face says I read out something 
which I don't know means what. Mostly its some cliche upon which the 
crowd rises and claps. Bush's facial expression changes to that relief 
at this point.

Also, he won't have the priviledge of addressing the British parliament 
unlike his predecessors. It seems the Blair government developed cold 
feet on the event after Bush got heckled by a couple of green MPs in 
the Australian parliament.



#51 of 70 by happyboy on Thu Nov 20 19:28:41 2003:

he has a learning disability.  please try to be understanding of
his sad condition.


#52 of 70 by tsty on Fri Nov 21 09:28:47 2003:

and yuo flyu planes too?


#53 of 70 by albaugh on Fri Nov 21 17:45:56 2003:

It is refreshing to see the swell of whining from the liberal bastion of grex
worthies.  Life is tough living under a Republican president, ain't it.
Of course, we were so much better off under Clinton...


#54 of 70 by sj2 on Fri Nov 21 17:57:30 2003:

I think you will have to define liberal first. 

Another interesting thing to note was Fox's almost complete lack of 
coverage of the Anti-Bush protests in London. An estimated 100,000 
people turned up for the protests and Fox missed it? 


#55 of 70 by twenex on Fri Nov 21 18:06:16 2003:

re: 53: Yeah, you probably were. Of course, since Fox
never reported it, you probably missed that


#56 of 70 by albaugh on Fri Nov 21 18:09:33 2003:

The only thing I watch Fox for is Red Wings hockey or Pistons basketball, or
the occasional Detroit Lions attempt at football.


#57 of 70 by scott on Fri Nov 21 18:32:27 2003:

Re 53:  Yes, things are so much better now that flag-draped coffins are coming
back from a foreign land on a regular basis once again.


#58 of 70 by rcurl on Fri Nov 21 18:37:09 2003:

Re #54: I'm your man:

liberal (adj).  1. Possessing or manifesting a free and generous heart; 
bountiful. 2. Appropriate or fitting for a broad and enlightened mind. 3.
Free from narrowness, bigotry, or bondage to authority or creed, as in
religion; inclined to democratic or republican ideas, as opposed to
monarchical or aristocratic, as in politics; broad, popular, progressive. 

illiberal (adj.). 1. Not liberal; not generous in giving; parsimonious. 2.
Narrow-minded. 3. Lacking breadth of culture; hence, vulgar. 



#59 of 70 by happyboy on Fri Nov 21 18:50:35 2003:

re52 lol, i fly planes about as good as you spell, wino.


#60 of 70 by bru on Sat Nov 22 04:09:58 2003:

is it because they were expecting a million.


#61 of 70 by sj2 on Sun Nov 23 06:11:20 2003:

Re #58, thanks Rane :) Count me as a liberal.


#62 of 70 by jaklumen on Sun Nov 23 10:31:45 2003:

gotta love politics.


#63 of 70 by gull on Tue Nov 25 17:16:28 2003:

Re #57: Yes, things are better because no one is allowed to film them. 
Out of sight, out of mind...


#64 of 70 by khamsun on Tue Nov 25 21:19:52 2003:

hi there,

I write from Europe.That visit of GWB to the british islands was very
funny, but pay attention, the Queen is furious !! Her garden was destroy
by the americans:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13652625_method=full_
siteid=106694_headline=-GROUND-FARCE-1-name_page.html

They were many things said on radios and papers too.

Like that one: much people stressed the fact the visit was kind of
historical: first US president to do official visit to the queen ? Well,
that's wrong: the president of the USA couldn't come, he was busy and
sent Bush instead (ie. Al Gore _is_ the president...:-))

At many places on the internet (at least in german, spanish, french and
more...) a word of Oscar Wilde came often:
 "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence
without civilization in between." 
uff!

Poor George !!


#65 of 70 by happyboy on Tue Nov 25 22:46:43 2003:

actually  president cheney is running things, kemosabe


#66 of 70 by gull on Wed Nov 26 14:57:52 2003:

From his undisclosed location?  (I've always suspected the "undisclosed
location" is a cardiac ward in some hospital.)


#67 of 70 by tpryan on Thu Nov 27 19:39:11 2003:

re 64:  Al Gore resigned the presidency...well conceded it.


#68 of 70 by jp2 on Thu Nov 27 19:46:17 2003:

This response has been erased.



#69 of 70 by khamsun on Tue Dec 2 07:50:00 2003:

well, with a little help from the Supreme Court, after much ado about
something...
BTW, is there no longer a debate about the possibilities to re-evaluate
the electoral system (ie. Electoral college) by changing/amending the
constitution ?
In Europe we are going to be more and more interested about the inner of
US politics.We try to avoid WW3 :)


#70 of 70 by gull on Tue Dec 2 15:19:31 2003:

Right now there doesn't seem to be any political will to change the
electoral college.  When it comes to Constitutional amendments,
generally it's hard to get interest in anything that doesn't ban flag
burning or gay marriage.


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