Grex Agora47 Conference

Item 106: The weasel survey from DNRC

Entered by sj2 on Mon Oct 20 18:21:10 2003:

Results of Dilbert's 2003 Weasel Awards
---------------------------------------

The second annual exuberantly non-scientific Weasel Poll results 
are in. 35,874 people voted. I'll be spending the next few weeks 
publicly embarrassing the winners. They are...


Tally      Weaseliest Organization
------     ----------------------------------------

7950       Recording Industry Association of America
6322       White House
4470       Democratic Party
3989       ACLU
3859       Organized religion
3039       Fox News Corporation
3008       Republican Party
1860       Congress
1323       New York Times


Tally      Weaseliest Country
------     ------------------               

12739      France
10761      USA
5845       Saudi Arabia
4668       North Korea
801        Iran
509        Canada
219        Germany


Tally      Weaseliest Company
------     ------------------
                
12854      Microsoft
7645       Halliburton
7220       MCI WorldCom
2425       Kmart
1313       Merrill Lynch
1173       HealthSouth
1017       Freddie Mac
970        Salomon Smith Barney

 
Tally      Weaseliest Profession
------     ---------------------

10309      Politicians
7854       Lawyers
6234       News media
6059       Tobacco executives
4217       Oil executives
1043       Accountants
      

Tally      Weaseliest Individual
------     ---------------------
         
13959      George W. Bush
5104       Michael Moore
3057       Yasser Arafat
2820       Jacques Chirac
2141       Saddam Hussein
1883       Tom Daschle
1105       Arnold Schwarzenegger
1095       Al Franken
1023       Ariel Sharon
932        Bill O'Reilly
695        Ann Coulter
483        Charles Schumer
400        Sean Penn
383        Jayson Blair
230        Richard Grasso
195        Gerhardt Schroeder
188        Bill Bennett
146        Jack Grubman

             
Tally      Weaseliest Behavior
------     -------------------
  
18877      Blaming fast food restaurants for making
           you fat
5748       Religious extremism
4688       Creating computer worms/viruses because 
           no one will date you
3997       Driving a Hummer
1487       Using cell phones in restaurants
1077       Using speaker phone in cubicle


72 responses total.

#1 of 72 by keesan on Mon Oct 20 18:52:10 2003:

Yesterday at the library some man was yelling loudly for about ten minutes
(to himself, as the rest of us tried to ignore him), presumably at someone
near him who had been using a cell phone in the library, where you are not
expected to be carrying on a conversation (or yelling).  I don't see how it
would matter in a restaurant.

What is a Hummer?


#2 of 72 by cross on Mon Oct 20 19:16:24 2003:

This response has been erased.



#3 of 72 by jaklumen on Tue Oct 21 00:01:18 2003:

resp:0 it's interesting how left-wingers and right-wingers, so to 
speak, are both on there ;>


#4 of 72 by rcurl on Tue Oct 21 00:52:19 2003:

But not surprising.... I presume those opposites were on the survey, and
the electorate is split near 50-50 on many things. 


#5 of 72 by remmers on Tue Oct 21 02:26:41 2003:

Walmart didn't make the weaseliest company list?  How strange.


#6 of 72 by sabre on Tue Oct 21 02:54:34 2003:

The weaseliest liberal forum..GREX
The weaseliest grexer.........remmers
remmers..you are one SLEAZY weasel.
I think jaklulantern should give you his billy goat gruff routine
You actually resemble an ole goat....with that nasty goatee of yours


#7 of 72 by mcnally on Tue Oct 21 06:02:09 2003:

  #6 is almost totally pointless but it does manage to suggest an idea
  that intrigues me -- I wonder what remmers is like when angry.

  As much as I've enjoyed his company on the occasions when we've met,
  I have at best a casual acquaintance with him.  Certainly I'm not the
  best judge, but I find it almost impossible to imagine him fuming mad.
  Can anyone else picture that?  (One thing I *do* know for sure, though:
  sabre is going to have to work a lot harder if he ever wants to see it.)


#8 of 72 by rcurl on Tue Oct 21 06:19:26 2003:

sabre only diminishes himself by his gratuitous and juvenile jabs at
various people. 


#9 of 72 by janc on Tue Oct 21 14:34:33 2003:

Notice the Democratic party ranked as more weasely than the Republican
Party.  Finally, Bush's strategy makes sense.  But running the
Weaseliest White House in history, he draws all the weasely votes off
from his party, making it look better than the Democratic party.

Scott Adams definitely tilted this survey.  Why weren't cartoonists
listed among the choices for weaseliest occupations?


#10 of 72 by gull on Tue Oct 21 14:59:09 2003:

I'd say there's plenty to offend everyone in #0. ;>


#11 of 72 by gull on Tue Oct 21 15:18:57 2003:

Re #9: It does look like having both The White House and The Republican
Party on the same list split the Republican weasel vote.


#12 of 72 by mcnally on Tue Oct 21 16:29:44 2003:

  Either that or another on-line poll got "Freeped"..


#13 of 72 by bhelliom on Fri Oct 24 16:17:00 2003:

Ah yes, Wal-mart.  The store of family values, savings, and cheap
migrant labor.


#14 of 72 by remmers on Fri Oct 24 16:53:21 2003:

Wal-Mart just got raided over the latter.  How embarassing.  Couldn't
happen to a nicer giant corporation.


#15 of 72 by bhelliom on Fri Oct 24 17:14:52 2003:

Yep...they got busted in several states, including Michigan.


#16 of 72 by rcurl on Fri Oct 24 17:31:15 2003:

I thought I read it was a contractor to Wal-Mart, not Wal-Mart, who
got "busted". 


#17 of 72 by bhelliom on Fri Oct 24 17:40:07 2003:

The migrant workers were busted...I think the Wal-mart sotres were the
site of the raids...I'll have to re-read the article.


#18 of 72 by rcurl on Fri Oct 24 18:07:23 2003:

The illegal aliens get busted for being illegal, but won't the company
that hired them, the contractor, also be indicted for giving them employment?


#19 of 72 by bhelliom on Fri Oct 24 18:36:11 2003:

I believe so.  Wal-mart may also face problems, if it cannot be proven
that they had nothing to do--deliberately--with hiring illegals.


#20 of 72 by gelinas on Fri Oct 24 18:57:22 2003:

Shouldn't that be the other way?  "Wal-mart may also face problems, if it can
be proven that they knew about the hiring of illegal aliens"?  Innocent 'til
proven guilty, and all that?


#21 of 72 by mynxcat on Fri Oct 24 19:21:10 2003:

That's what one would think


#22 of 72 by other on Fri Oct 24 19:33:44 2003:

Wal-Mart CONTRACTED someone to fill positions, which they did using 
illegals.  This was probably solely for plausible deniability.


#23 of 72 by goose on Fri Oct 24 19:59:11 2003:

One NPR report talked about Wal-Mart executives being on tape talking about
these illegals.  So they may have evidence of knowledge.


#24 of 72 by tod on Fri Oct 24 20:17:10 2003:

This response has been erased.



#25 of 72 by krj on Fri Oct 24 22:02:04 2003:

My recollection of the news stories is that the Feds have executed
searches at Wal-Mart corporate offices in this case.


#26 of 72 by tod on Fri Oct 24 22:04:40 2003:

This response has been erased.



#27 of 72 by janc on Mon Oct 27 04:59:49 2003:

I believe Walmart has replaced General Motors as the biggest employer in
America.  This is not a particularly good sign for America.  GM employees
mostly make things.  Walmert employees mostly don't.  GM employees are
largely unionized, and make fairly decent livings.  Walmart employees are,
I believe, non-union and a substantial fraction of them earn crummy wages
with no medical benefits.  This allows Walmart to sell for less, putting
stores that treat their employees decently out of business.  It's not a
company that makes one feel good about the social value of capitalist
enterprise.


#28 of 72 by sj2 on Mon Oct 27 05:31:18 2003:

Welcome to China!!


#29 of 72 by gelinas on Mon Oct 27 11:52:23 2003:

(In his latest book, _Managing in the Next Society_, Peter Drucker points out
that relatively few GM employees "make things."  Manufacturing productivity,
like farming productivity, has outstripped demand.)


#30 of 72 by tod on Mon Oct 27 13:33:11 2003:

This response has been erased.



#31 of 72 by janc on Mon Oct 27 14:23:56 2003:

Joe's probably right - GM does a lot more selling than making.  But my
observation was probably dumb anyway, as "selling" isn't inherently worse
than "making".  Heck, someone out convincing people to buy recycled paper
products is probably doing the world more good than someone making yet
another Humvee.  The isn't any inherent moral superiority to making things.
Personally, I find such work more satisfying, at least when it has a
creative component (which is probably fairly rare on an assembly line) but
lots of people aren't wired that way.  So you can strike that comment.


#32 of 72 by remmers on Mon Oct 27 14:24:21 2003:

...and hope the Wal-Mart doesn't drive said grocer out of business first.


#33 of 72 by remmers on Mon Oct 27 14:24:59 2003:

(Jan' #31 slipped in.  I was responding to Todd's #30.)


#34 of 72 by tod on Mon Oct 27 14:29:27 2003:

This response has been erased.



#35 of 72 by gull on Mon Oct 27 14:32:29 2003:

I'm still not sure it says good things about our country that we're trading
manufacturing jobs for positions in telemarketing and burger-flipping.


#36 of 72 by remmers on Mon Oct 27 14:33:55 2003:

Hard to say.  It could be that we're manufacturing just as much but
using fewer people to do it.


#37 of 72 by janc on Mon Oct 27 14:46:44 2003:

Maybe we have enough stuff?

Nah.


#38 of 72 by jep on Mon Oct 27 15:08:12 2003:

Manufacturing and farming involve turning natural resources into 
products; the traditional definition of "creating wealth".  That's how 
the economy grows.  Services -- sales, marketing, surgery, teaching, 
management, etc. -- don't produce any wealth.  They shift it around.

Few of us ever produce anything at all, but we all survive and prosper 
off what is produced.  We all eat, and we all buy cars and clothes and 
gadgetry.  It all gets produced by someone.  In the service economy, 
our function is to serve those producers in some way in order to earn 
our share of their products.


#39 of 72 by slynne on Mon Oct 27 15:41:17 2003:

Most manufacturing jobs in this country have been lost to technology. 
Which isnt really a bad thing. We are still making just as much stuff, 
it just takes less folks to make it. Which frees up people to earn 
livings doing other things. Things like teaching and creating art and 
entertaining, etc. Can you imagine how our lives would be if *most* 
people had to either farm or work in factories?  

This doesnt mean that Walmart isnt a problem though. They pay their 
workers pretty low wages. I am always surprised that they are even able 
to find employees. 


#40 of 72 by aruba on Mon Oct 27 15:46:21 2003:

I dunno - we sure import a lot of stuff from China.  But I suppose this
question about how much stuff is made in the USA can be answered with
numbers.


#41 of 72 by keesan on Mon Oct 27 15:49:40 2003:

Re 38 - I don't buy cars, nor does Jim.  The two he currently owns were given
to him.


#42 of 72 by slynne on Mon Oct 27 16:25:05 2003:

resp:40 - I was just listening to some radio economists going on about 
this very thing. They said that we still make as much stuff as we did 
40 years ago. However, there are a lot more people in the country now 
and we consume WAY more stuff than we used to. So, while we make the 
same amount of stuff, it is a much lower percentage of the total 
consumption. 


#43 of 72 by aruba on Mon Oct 27 16:26:51 2003:

That makes sense - thanks.


#44 of 72 by tod on Mon Oct 27 17:02:49 2003:

This response has been erased.



#45 of 72 by sj2 on Mon Oct 27 17:59:50 2003:

In the 70s and 80s, lots of manufacturing jobs moved out of the US. 
After that, the US economy has only grown further. No reason it should 
stop growing bcoz of outsourcing of service industry jobs. Only remains 
to be seen what will drive growth in the US now. Usually, growth in the 
US economy provides growth for other economies too which is a good 
things coz everyone benefits.

Can someone point me to a link for statistics on US exports category 
wise? Arms, cars, steel, farm produce etc etc?


#46 of 72 by rcurl on Mon Oct 27 18:13:13 2003:

I've  always wondered why the economy must "grow" continually in order to
have a satisfactory economic structure. Obviously nothing can grow forever
 - all resources are finite. Many looming problems - from depletion of the
oceans of edible fish to global warming - would have been averted by
moving to a constrained, steady-state economy, especially for the more
advanced economies. Then more effort could be put into an equalization of
world economies so noone is left in desperate circumstances. 



#47 of 72 by tod on Mon Oct 27 18:33:30 2003:

This response has been erased.



#48 of 72 by mcnally on Mon Oct 27 18:53:48 2003:

  re #46:  spoken like someone already perched comfortably close to the top
  of the economic ladder.


#49 of 72 by slynne on Mon Oct 27 19:04:58 2003:

Economies can grow even without depletion of resources. Sometimes the 
growth comes from coming up with ways to use available resources more 
efficiently. Think about it. What if I could come up with a way to use 
the energy from the sun such that it could supply all our power needs. 
Let's just say that I need lots and lots of human labor in order to 
make that happen. That would be a whole new industry and a lot of 
growth and I dont think even Rane would suggest the status quo is 
better than *that*. Whatever the future growth is in the economy, it is 
likely to be something good. 


#50 of 72 by rcurl on Mon Oct 27 19:33:54 2003:

I see you have been "convinced". It would be great if it were simple to
harvest for sunlight, but what if that *accelerates* the depletion of
other resource? Without something else being done to limit growth, the
longer term effects would be to increase population and consumption faster
- of other finite resources - unless the brakes could also be placed on
growth per-se.  I'm not opposed to a better life for all, but why must we
always let - or even encourage this to - this increase crowding and
environmental destruction?



#51 of 72 by slynne on Mon Oct 27 19:49:42 2003:

Oddly, in areas where there has been the most economic growth, there 
has also been a reduction in birth rate. Economic growth does not equal 
population growth. 

Sure, there is a finite amount of natural resources and also 
environmental costs. If resources get scarce enough, you will see 
economic growth in areas of conservation. 



#52 of 72 by gull on Mon Oct 27 21:12:37 2003:

Re #39: If they can't find enough low-wage workers, they just import more.


#53 of 72 by rcurl on Mon Oct 27 23:19:09 2003:

Its not economic growth but education that reduces the birth rate, although
with our present systems education usually waits for a better economic
situation (that does not have to be *growth*).


#54 of 72 by slynne on Mon Oct 27 23:27:32 2003:

Our culture has a lower birth rate because it is not economically 
beneficial to have children. Well, that is one theory anyway. Just as 
good as a theory about education reducing birth rate. 


#55 of 72 by jep on Tue Oct 28 02:55:50 2003:

re resp:41: Collectively we buy cars, though, which is what I meant.  

Sindi, if everyone lived as you do, your life would change as much as 
anyone else's.  You would have to compete more for the stuff you use 
to live.  We cannot all be scavengers.  It would probably be better if 
more people made that choice, though.

re resp:46: As long as the population increases, there will need to be 
more resources used to sustain it.  We have more mouths to feed, more 
bodies to house, more minds to educate, more people driving on the 
highways.

Beyond that... it seems harsh to pick a particular generation and 
say, "Stop!  You can't live better than the previous generation, as 
the previous generation did, and the one before did, and the one 
before that."  It seems really harsh for a generation to say it to 
their kids.


#56 of 72 by slynne on Tue Oct 28 03:51:45 2003:

I dont think anyone doubts that an increasing population is a problem. 


#57 of 72 by gelinas on Tue Oct 28 05:36:32 2003:

(Drucker calls it a 'knowledge economy', not a 'service economy', because the
chief product is . . . knowledge.)


#58 of 72 by sj2 on Tue Oct 28 05:46:16 2003:

Increasing populations is as much a problem as decline in birth rates 
or contraction in populations. Look at the problem faced by countries 
where a significant working force will retire in the coming decades,  
will need old-age care, retirement benefits etc and there aren't 
enough young people to replace them or pay for the retirement 
benefits!!

http://www.estellejames.com/presentations/europe.ppt
http://money.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4688297-110142,00.html


#59 of 72 by gull on Tue Oct 28 14:07:53 2003:

Fortunately, productivity is increasing, and that will mitigate the problem
to some extent.


#60 of 72 by rcurl on Tue Oct 28 17:46:59 2003:

Productivity increases don't decrease resource depletion - they just
consume resources faster for a given population. Increasing efficiencies,
on the other hand, do preserve some resources - temporarily.



#61 of 72 by gull on Tue Oct 28 18:27:36 2003:

No, but productivity increases *do* improve the ability of a smaller
generation to support retirees.

Part of the problem, frankly, is an obsolete concept of retirement. 
Lifespans keep getting longer, but people keep expecting to retire at
age 55 and never work again.  Sooner or later we have to come to terms
with the fact that expecting to take a 30-year vacation is not realistic.


#62 of 72 by rcurl on Tue Oct 28 18:54:44 2003:

That's an oversimplification. If persons at any age have managed to
save enough to live on their investments, whether it is through their
private investments or through "social security" investments, shouldn't
they be entitled to do that? That can work, of course, because they are
paying others to produce goods and services through their investments.
Please tell us what is wrong with this concept. 


#63 of 72 by sj2 on Tue Oct 28 19:45:01 2003:

This is an old article but still relevant, I guess.

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/19970701faessay3782/martin-feldstein/the-
case-for-privatization.html

Summary: By 2030, Social Security payroll tax rates will rise to 19 
percent - more than 45 percent including Medicare and Medicaid. In 
Europe, which faces similar challenges, the burden of entitlement 
expenses is already so great as to slow economic growth. The solution 
is to phase out Social Security and other pay-as-you-go programs and 
replace them with a mandate for all to put away savings in a mix of 
stocks and bonds. Under a privatized system, the same benefits would 
require contributions equal to just two percent of U.S. payroll. Not 
only would the elderly be safe from poverty, but for the first time 
people of low and moderate means would accumulate significant personal 
savings.


#64 of 72 by klg on Tue Oct 28 20:41:42 2003:

yes


#65 of 72 by gull on Tue Oct 28 21:27:14 2003:

I'm not sure that really solves the problem.  If you have a large generation
of retirees all withdrawing their savings from the market, and a smaller
generation of workers investing, it seems to me that those investments are
going to drop in value pretty dramatically.


#66 of 72 by klg on Wed Oct 29 02:15:39 2003:

Mr. gull,
Perhaps so - other things being equal.  But are other things going to be 
equal??  Additionally, the private accounts would appear to be primarily 
for the post-Baby Boom generations.  After all, the eldest of the 
boomers are nearly ready to retire.  They would hardly be impacted by 
such a practice.


#67 of 72 by keesan on Wed Oct 29 04:38:52 2003:

Jim is probably the oldest baby boomer and he is only 55, hardly ready to
retire.


#68 of 72 by rcurl on Wed Oct 29 06:43:00 2003:

Another problem with the concept in #61 (that retirement is obsolete) is
that people are pushed to retire to make room for new generations. "Old"
people have more health problems, have a smaller potential further service
life than young workers, generally have higher pay that new employees, may
not be up on the latest gadgets, may be harder to retrain on the average,
and are, well, just LOOK OLD. Nasty..... 



#69 of 72 by remmers on Wed Oct 29 13:20:49 2003:

Speak for yourself, Rane!  :)


#70 of 72 by slynne on Wed Oct 29 16:10:46 2003:

haha. Actually, I think there is a lot of wasted human capital that 
occurs because of our culture's views on hiring older people. 


#71 of 72 by glenda on Wed Oct 29 17:52:24 2003:

I am almost 52, I hope to have my MS and start a new career when I hit 55.


#72 of 72 by willcome on Thu Nov 27 08:14:53 2003:

whore.


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