On one hand: http://www.islamvision.org/Kafir.asp --------------------------------------------------------------------- Kafir The word Kaafir most probably should be one of the most misunderstood terms in the history of world languages. The term has been abused & projected by media in such a fashion that it induces spontaneous hatred among people to whom this term is being referred. Any language at it's best, conveys what it's made out to convey. Factually speaking there is nothing derogatory or insulting about the term Kaafir. The term (derived from Kufr in Arabic language) means 'One who rejects (denies) the truth' or 'One who does not believe' or a 'Non-believer'. A person who is not a Christian is called a Non-Christian; a person who is not a Hindu is known as a non- Hindu; similarly, a person who is not a Muslim is called a non-Muslim, which when translated in to Arabic language is called a Kaafir. It's as simple as that. In fact, the term Kaafir relates more to the status of a person's belief system and reflects less about the physical entity that he is. A more apt, politically and socially significant term Zimmi used in Arabic literature to denote non-Muslims has been ignored and has gone unnoticed by Muslim bashers. A non-Muslim subject in an Islamic state is called Zimmi (derived from Zimma meaning responsibility) meaning a subject whose life, honour and property will be protected by the Islamic State. He will have freedom to follow his own belief system. He will have his own set of laws, administered by his own tribunals and own judges, without any interference on the part of the Muslim authorities. He will also be exempted from participation in the wars, otherwise compulsory to the Muslim subjects of the state. He will not be required to pay the compulsory annual Zakaat (a type of compulsory tax collected annually from all Muslims by Islamic Governments and disbursed to poor Muslims). Against all these privileges the non- Muslim subject Zimmi have to pay a nominal tax called Jizya. The quantum of Jizya will be reasonable enough as not to be a financial burden on him. In case of any uncertainty with respect to the safety of non-Muslim subjects, an Islamic state will forfeit its right to collect such tax. History tells us that the second Caliph Umer (RA) returned a huge sum of money collected through Jizya to the non-Muslim subjects in one such compelling circumstance. The Zimmis also will not be allowed to participate in legislation process. For that matter, not even the Muslim subjects. Because the law making (Legislation) authority rests with Allah and hence will be solely based on Qur'an & Sunnah. The Islamic State will only be a law-enforcing agency. At the time of the revelation of the Holy Qur'an, when most of the non-believers in Mecca and Madina had waged a pitched battle with believers; Allah (SWT) sensing the question upper most in the minds of most Muslims with respect to their dealings with other non- believers who were not hostile to them issued the following instruction: "Allah does not forbid you to be kind and deal justly with non-Muslims, who do not wage war against you on account of your religion and do not drive you out of your homes. Verily Allah loves those who are just". (60-8) The above-mentioned verse in fact is a policy statement in this matter. This is further exemplified by Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) who said: "One who kills a Zimmi, will not get even the scent of the paradise. In another statement he said: " I shall stand witness against the believer, who will be guilty of persecuting a Zimmi." It should be noted that while discussing the rights of neighbours and the wayfarers, Islam does not make any distinction between Muslims and non- Muslims. A non-Muslim neighbour has as much rights over his Muslim neighbour as the other Muslim neighbour next door. There can not be a better example to illustrate Islam's stand vis- -vis the treatment to the non -Muslims, than the story narrated by Abu Uzair (RA), one of the companion of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh), before embracing Islam. "I was one of the prisoners-of-war and was handed over as captive to one of the Ansars (residents of Madina). Ever since Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) instructed his companions to look well after the captives, the situation used to be that my Ansar host used to eat only dates while providing me a stomach full meal." No wonder, the entire Christian population of a border town, preferred to live as Zimmis under the rule of Hazrat Umar (RA) ,the second Caliph of Islam instead of becoming sovereign subjects of a Christian king in 640 CE. ----------------------------------------------------------------------58 responses total.
On the other hand: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp? ARTICLE_ID=29709 ------------------------------------------------------------------- GLOBAL JIHAD Sheik: 'It's OK to kill non-Muslims' London Islamic cleric caught on tape calling for death of Americans ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: November 19, 2002 1:49 a.m. Eastern 2002 WorldNetDaily.com A London-based Muslim cleric has been caught on film urging his followers to kill non-Muslims particularly Americans and to commit other acts of terrorism. Sheik Abu Hamza, affiliated with London's Finsbury Park mosque, tells an audience that non-believers should be killed or sold into slavery in a tape converted to digital files and smuggled onto the Internet. The tapes were reportedly given by Hamza to a researcher who posed as a supporter and infiltrated his inner circle. "If a kafir person (non- believer) goes in a Muslim country, he is like a cow," explains Hamza. "Anybody can take him. That is the Islamic law." "If a kafir is walking by and you catch him, he's booty," he says on one tape. "You can sell him in the market. Most of them are spies. And even if they don't do anything, if Muslims cannot take them and sell them in the market, you just kill them. It's OK." Hamza praises the al-Qaida bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania that killed 224 people. "If Muslims are having a war against these people, than yes, it is legitimate," he says. He praised attacks against ships from non-Muslim countries: "If a ship which loses its way and comes to a Muslim land, they'll take it as booty." A terrorist attack in 2000 on the USS Cole killed 17 American sailors. The attack has been linked to Muslim militants in Britain, but Hamza has never been charged. Despite accusations he recruits for al-Qaida, Hamza's only punishment in Britain has been a High Court order banning him from preaching at the Finsbury Park mosque. However, when the Ottawa Citizen visited the mosque several weeks ago, worshippers had his phone number handy, the newspaper reported. "It's all fabrication. He's just taking clips and taking it out of context, as usual," Hamza said last night when asked about the videos. He scoffed at suggestions the tapes may lead to his arrest. He said he can't be accused of inciting people to commit violent acts because he's a cleric who only preaches Muslim law. "I say the reality that's in the Muslim books anyway. Whether I say it or not, it's in the books." The sheik, who was born in Egypt and grew up in England, then alluded to more violence using language similar to that used by Osama bin Laden. "Just as non-Muslim blood is hot, Muslim blood is hot, too," he said. "It's for them to worry about. When they kill, they will be killed."
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From what I know, the text in #0 is very misleading. Islam distinguishes between non-Muslims who nonetheless believe in God (Allah) and those who are non-believers. The status of dhimmi (meaning protected) can only be achieved by Jews and Christians. Non-believers (e.g. polytheists) are to be put to death. That the non-Muslim neighbor has just as much right as the Muslim is also a bunch of crock. Non-Muslims are not allowed to testify in Muslim courts (the only game in town in Muslim lands). Many other restrictions were placed on Non-Muslims (Jews & Christians) -- for example, synagogues and churches had to be less grand than the mosques. Nor could dhimmis hold public office or ride on camels or horses (only donkeys, I believe). Does anyone really believe that the poll tax on dhimmis was typically less than the tax on Muslims? (One anecdotal story of one Caliph refunding this tax should raise more questions than it answers). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi http://www.dhimmi.com/ http://answering-islam.org.uk/Index/D/dhimmi.html http://www.secularislam.org/articles/bostom2.htm http://www.secularislam.org/jihad/subjects.htm
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This all makes me support the First Amendment with even more fervor. If Bush can't get Iraq to adopt the equivalent, he will have lost the real battle.
The best hope for a 'freedom of religion' clause in an Iraqi constitution is neutrality between Sunni and Shia, just as ours was neutrality between various Protestant Christian sects. (Ours has grown since then, but that really was where it started.)
Stand down folks. Islam as a religion is generally where the x-ers were about 1400-1200 years ago in the 'western' tradition. (Do you know any Lutherans? They were the Taliban of their founding.) (Or how about the Mormons? They had their "Daanites" (al_Qudes) and they were the prefered candidates for FBI agents until recently...since then it has become black muslims?) Unfortunately the evolution of the Islamic faith has cost us a number of planes and buildings full of people recently but in the long run this will change. Exchange of information and the Internet leads naturally to that (so long as we can keep the hands of Government off it (Government being the modern GOD). It is odd to note that 'kaafir' in South Africa (x-ian state era) was a term for black person especially since at the time of its most common use it was hardly an Islamic State.
"kaffir" != "kaafir"
I suggest it damn well is/was obviously. Both by derivation and usage.
The English used to not allow Catholics to attend university or hold office. The communists used to not allow non party members to attend university or hold office. The Chinese communists would not let people attend university (at one time) if their parents had been intellectuals.
Education is tightly controlled in totalitarian communities. The Taliban forbade it to women. At one time the American medical community did too.
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NYTimes editor Friedman had some good insights on Islam and terror in a programme on CNN yesterday. He also commented on Mahatir Mohamed's controversial speech. He rightly pointed out that while the Malaysian PM's remarks about jews were shallow and inflammatory but the bulk of his speech about muslims was deeply critical of the muslim world and bold.
Catholic politicians were regarded with suspicion in the U.S. for years, because it was thought that if they were elected to office they would be controlled by the Pope. Ironically, we've now come full circle, and Gov. Granholm has been picketed by Catholics for not following the Vatican's line on abortion. (You know, it's interesting that pro-abortion Catholics are picketed, but pro-death penalty Catholics aren't.)
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Re #14: What broke the back of that attitude was the 1960 presidential election. Kennedy was elected, and the dire predictions that he'd be in the Vatican's pocket proved false.
Waaaaaaay false.
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resp:16 Because he was in Marylin's skirts at the time. You can't serve to masters. God, or p- well, you know.
er two masters
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Since when?
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<lol>
If one pays me enough, I can learn.
One must be careful with offers like that....
Tee hee...the way I look at it t'would be a win-win-win situation.
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Whether or not they apply the term correctly, white South Africans and whites in other Southern ASfrican countries often refer to blacks as "kaffirs". The term therefore has negative connotations, just as "Deutschland ueber alles" has been blacklisted because it was used by the Nazis, even though it means "Germany is my first priority", not "Let Germany March Across the Face of the World". Re 10: Can known Communists live in America without fear or retribution, or not? Yes, I know they are supposed to be out to destroy America. That's what the English used to say about Catholics...
Re #30: Unless I've missed something, the Marxists at places like UC Berkeley and UW Madison include people on state salary.
You can't become a citizen if you're a Communist party member, however.
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citizenship adn political pursuasion are mutually exclusive.
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I know lots of immigrants who came here legally. None of them snuck over the border and only a couple of them are even Mexican. Anyone with half a brain can get in here if they want to.
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Well anyone except members of the Communist party and there might be some smart guys in Al quada or similar groups who cant get in.
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Which countries? I have met immigrants from Lebenon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Algeria, Libya and Yemen
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Haha. What are you going to tell them, tod. That I happen to live near Dearborn? hahaha.
Re #36: I know someone who came here legally. It was a long, frustrating, expensive process involving hiring a lawyer and enduring lots of bureaucratic foul-ups and long waits in waiting rooms. But what do you expect? What political point is there in properly funding and staffing an agency that, by definition, deals almost exclusively with people who cannot vote?
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and the other part comes from eating KING VITAMIN CEREAL.
We might be in serious trouble, then.. Do they still make King Vitamin?
resp:44 - I agree with that and, personally, I would like to see more relaxed immigration laws. I also would like to see more King Vitamin cereal. ;)
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It's "King YouDaMan" now, and they've switch from cereal to jelly.
At least they're not writing bibles anymore. (In specially marked boxes of....)
I'm too young for King Vitamin. I remember when Post decided having the word "Sugar" in a cereal name was no longer good advertising, though, and changed "Sugar Crisp" to "Golden Crisp".
I ate KV as a kid, and I still see it on some store shelves (I think). I also ate Sugar Smacks, before they became Honey Smacks, and Sugar Pops before thay became Corn Pops.
What are 'glazed walnuts'? We got a coupon for them in our bag of walnuts in the shell. Is this another name for sugar coated?
yes.
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whore.
resp:45 - And here I though it was Ovaltine.
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