Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 98: Why the liberal democrats will lose the next election

Entered by sabre on Sat Jul 19 14:31:53 2003:

#1 Bush has raised more $ than all of the democrats combined
#2 Bush can focus on the election now..while democrats are fighting each other
#3Bush's approval rating will not drop enough for a democrat to win.
#4 There isn't a decent democrat running
#5 All liberals are stupid dipshits..and America is a catching on
#6 Al Gore is a chickenshit
68 responses total.

#1 of 68 by krj on Sat Jul 19 15:16:46 2003:

#7 No President has suffered a net loss of jobs on his watch since 
   Herbert Hoover.
#8 $450 billion federal budget deficit this year and more next year.
#9 Where's Saddam?  Where's the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction which were
   an immediate threat?


#2 of 68 by twenex on Sat Jul 19 16:08:33 2003:

Ken - are you arguing the democrats will *lose* the next election, or win it
because of ##7,8 and 9? sound like arguments against Bush, if you ask me...
#0 reason #5: Takes one to know one...


#3 of 68 by janc on Sun Jul 20 00:45:24 2003:

#1:  Being in the pockets of more people than any president ever before is
     certainly a big selling point.
#2:  Isn't he supposed to be focusing on running the country?
#3:  At least not if he starts another war.  Expect to hear soon that
     Iceland is harboring Weapons of Mass Distraction.  A country we can
     defeat on a budget.
#4:  Bet you don't know anything about the democratic candidates.
#5:  Right.
#6:  Yup, you don't know anything about the democratic candidates.  News
     flash: Gore isn't running.  That was the last election.


#4 of 68 by kip on Sun Jul 20 01:57:59 2003:

Well, I have to admit to being depressed and in the state of mind that I don't
think the American public will be angered enough to vote for someone else
besides Bush.

Joe Average American doesn't see the cause and effect in federal budget
deficits.  Until unemployment reaches 8% and the aforementioned Joe hears that
more than a handful of people on his quiet street are unemployed, he won't
be angry enough to show up to vote, let alone for someone besides Bush.


#5 of 68 by happyboy on Sun Jul 20 02:09:59 2003:

so tod...what's the unemployment rate here in Wa?


#6 of 68 by mvpel on Sun Jul 20 19:18:42 2003:

The Clinton surpluses were at least in some measure illusory - Worldcom is
trying to get back some of its overpaid income tax after it got caught
cooking its books.  Enron, Global Crossing, etc.  Meanwhile the SEC under
Clinton looked the other way.


#7 of 68 by gull on Sun Jul 20 19:35:01 2003:

Enron didn't pay any taxes, so they can't have contributed to the 
surplus.


#8 of 68 by carson on Sun Jul 20 20:13:00 2003:

(and their employees didn't pay taxes either, right?)


#9 of 68 by scg on Sun Jul 20 22:49:13 2003:

Their employees presumably paid taxes on what they got paid, which is hardly
book cooking on the part of the employees, and will not get the employees
taxes back.


#10 of 68 by scott on Mon Jul 21 00:06:21 2003:

Re #6:  A lot of Clinton's fiscal/business policy was essentially Republican,
though.  


#11 of 68 by pvn on Mon Jul 21 07:17:37 2003:

re#10:  What a brilliant strategy!  Clinton was secretly a Republican.


#12 of 68 by scott on Mon Jul 21 12:01:45 2003:

Halfway he was.  Pissed off a lot of people by coopting Republican themes.


#13 of 68 by tod on Mon Jul 21 16:46:50 2003:

This response has been erased.



#14 of 68 by flem on Mon Jul 21 16:56:02 2003:

This weekend I hung out with a bunch of acquaintances for a couple of hours.
In a group of about 20, I think 5 or 6 were unemployed.  Several more had
recently been unemployed and were working desperation jobs.  The main topic
of discussion was how to file for bankruptcy.  


#15 of 68 by richard on Mon Jul 21 23:51:42 2003:

re: #0...Sabre, you forget one important factor.  George Bush 
technically (if you just counted the popular vote), LOST the last 
election.  More people voted against Bush than for him.  More people 
voted for Al Gore than for George Bush.  That's a fact.  George W. Bush 
is the only president in American history to be elected while actually 
getting fewer votes than his opponent.

So ask yourself this, if all those people who didn't vote for him last  
time don't vote for him again, and given the economy why should they, 
why is his re-election so assured?  If things shake out the same way, 
it'll probably be another barn burner.

  


#16 of 68 by rcurl on Tue Jul 22 00:39:24 2003:

Especially if the democrats can find a more attractive candidate than Gore...


#17 of 68 by mary on Tue Jul 22 01:49:05 2003:

And I haven't been as enthusiastic about a Presidental
candidate since McGovern.  Go Howard Dean!


#18 of 68 by klg on Tue Jul 22 02:11:42 2003:

Yes!


#19 of 68 by klg on Tue Jul 22 02:28:52 2003:

re:  "#15 (richard):  ...  George W. Bush is the only president in 
American history to be elected while actually getting fewer votes than 
his opponent...."


Care to reconsider that statement, wise one?? (Or perhaps you are the 
only fan of President Tilden.)

http://gi.grolier.com/presidents/results/restable.html

1876
Rutherford B. Hayes, Rep.  185  4,035,924
Samuel J. Tilden, Dem.     184  4,287,670

1888
Benjamin Harrison, Rep.    233  5,445,269
Grover Cleveland, Dem.     168  5,540,365


#20 of 68 by scg on Tue Jul 22 03:27:24 2003:

Ok, so this was the only such election that didn't include a candidate with
a name like Rutherford or Grover. ;)

A lot has happened in the last two years, and Bush has been a very different
sort of President than he said he would be.  I don't think it's unreasonable
to assume he'll have a somewhat different, while certainly overlapping, set
of supporters.

Dean strikes me as saying most of the right things, but it bothers me how
exactly he's sticking to the Berkeley liberal democrat line.  It's not that
I disagree with him much, but I'd like to see him disagree with his core
constituency on *something*, just so I'd have some sort of evidence of his
ability to engage in independent thought.

Newsweek has an article on Howard Dean's background this week.  According to
that, like George Bush, Dean is a Yale "educated" recovering alcoholic from
an New England aristocratic family.  I feel like I've dealt with enough
alcoholics in the last few years that Bush's complete irrational obsessiveness
over war, oil, and tax cuts looks very familiar.  Dean appears irrationally
obsessive about things I agree with much more, and there's no question which
of them I'd pick if given the choice between the two, but I still don't think
I trust him.


#21 of 68 by carson on Tue Jul 22 04:27:01 2003:

re #7, 9:  (point being, Enron's existence meant that people were
        employed, earning money, and paying income taxes.  ditto Arthur
        Andersen, WorldCom, and any other high-profile collapsed big
        business.  now that these former employees are likely not earning
        as much income, they're not paying as much income tax, and the
        surplusses are going away.)

        (that's not to say that tax cuts aren't also having any effect
        on government revenue; rather, it's to agree with mvpel that some
        of the surplusses of the Clinton years were ill-gotten and to
        explain why.)


#22 of 68 by polygon on Tue Jul 22 17:40:01 2003:

Re 19.  You beat me to it!


#23 of 68 by mary on Tue Jul 22 18:01:28 2003:

Steve, I bet the point you're looking for is Dean's stance
on capital punishment.  He's being candid and honest but 
it will hurt him.


#24 of 68 by tod on Tue Jul 22 19:28:38 2003:

This response has been erased.



#25 of 68 by richard on Tue Jul 22 21:27:34 2003:

I like the fact that Howard Dean is a medical doctor, a physician who 
used to share a practice with his wife.  Health Care IMO is THE big 
issue not national security.  With the huge record numbers of people in 
this country who are going to become senior citizens in the next decade 
and beyond, and medical expenses skyrocketing, there is going to be a 
real crisis with health care.  At least symbolically, electing a 
physician president is a way of demonstrating a mandate for health care 
reform being made the highest of priorities in years to come.  

That said, the most electable candidate is probably Senator John Kerry 
of Massachusetts.  Dean is a relatively unknown former governor of a 
small state who hasn't yet been worked over by the national media.  You 
take a risk not knowing for sure how he'll respond.  Of course that 
didn't hurt Jimmy Carter when he ran in 1976 and was even less known 
than Dean.  Kerry is a veteran politician who is a highly decorated 
vietnam war hero (doesn't hurt having that on the resume)  Kerry was 
known for participating in vietnam war demonstrations when he was 
younger, including one where he threw his medals away (threw them over 
the white house fence in a symbolic gesture to show his disgust with 
the war)  Kerry however voted in support of the war with Iraq.  

Lieberman is too conservative to get the Democratic nomination.  
Edwards of North Carolina is too green, he needs more seasoning and 
experience and the Democrats would probably lose his seat in the Senate 
if he got elected.  Gephardt has too much baggage and represents (in my 
view) too much of the old guard establishment and the Democratic 
leadership in Congress.  

I suspect the nominee is likely to be Kerry, or Dean if continues to 
run as well as he has been, becomes the alternative candidate, and 
takes out Kerry in New Hampshire.  It should be an interesting primary 
season. 


#26 of 68 by gelinas on Wed Jul 23 00:42:35 2003:

Senator JFK from Massachusetts?  Should be interesting.


#27 of 68 by slynne on Wed Jul 23 01:34:35 2003:

Kerry has The Hair(tm). He will win. 


#28 of 68 by twenex on Wed Jul 23 02:05:26 2003:

Is that why clinton won against whoever lost in 92?


#29 of 68 by janc on Wed Jul 23 02:14:57 2003:

I think "President Dean" sounds silly.  Two titles in search of a name.  I
suppose he could be "Doctor President Dean".  "Mister President Doctor Dean?"
Let's just nominate Kerry and avoid all that.


#30 of 68 by bruin on Wed Jul 23 02:27:15 2003:

Re #28 George Bush Sr. was "Whoever lost in 92."


#31 of 68 by sabre on Wed Jul 23 14:45:13 2003:

RE:#10
"A lot of Clinton's fiscal/business policy was essentially Republican,
 though"
That is the only reason he had any economic success.
 RE:15
That was then....and this is now.
klg corrected you on the other issue.


#32 of 68 by richard on Wed Jul 23 21:59:43 2003:

Kerry also has a very rich wife which never hurts, particularly if the 
campaign gets expensive.  kerry's wife is an heir to the Heinz Ketchup 
empire and is worth hundreds of millions.  If Kerry wins the nomination 
and is going into the fall at a distinct fundraising advantage to Bush, 
he could avoid being outspent by refusing matching funds and spending a 
few tens of millions of his wife's money.  


#33 of 68 by tod on Wed Jul 23 22:04:27 2003:

This response has been erased.



#34 of 68 by sabre on Wed Jul 23 22:17:10 2003:

RE#32
Wrong.
Her fortune was inherited. This means it is excluded from thier combined
estate. She is limited to a 2000$ donation
lookee here:
http://www.lasvegassun.com/drudged/060404635.html


#35 of 68 by klg on Wed Jul 30 16:31:41 2003:

re:  "#17 (mary):  And I haven't been as enthusiastic about a 
Presidental candidate since McGovern.  Go Howard Dean!"


According to today's NYT article on Dean as governor of VT he sounds 
like a Republican to me:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/30/politics/campaigns/30DEAN.html?th

"Over 11 years, he . . ., cut taxes, forced many on welfare to go to 
work, abandoned a sweeping approach to health-care reform in favor of 
more incremental measures, antagonized environmentalists, won the top 
rating from the National Rifle Association and consistently embraced 
business interests. . . He remains a fiscal conservative, he believes 
gun control should be left to the states and he favors the death 
penalty for some crimes."


#36 of 68 by mary on Wed Jul 30 19:54:44 2003:

Well, I'm a fiscal conservative and would support gun control wherever I
can get it.  I disagree with Dean on the death penalty, even though he
hardly thinks it's a great law enforcement tool.  He's pro-choice and
would like to see all our citizens be given access to basic health care
needs.  He thinks our war with Iraq is wrong and he never supported it. 
So if that's what your standard republican is all about then, yes, I could
be republican. 

Sign me up.


#37 of 68 by tod on Wed Jul 30 20:02:17 2003:

This response has been erased.



#38 of 68 by mary on Wed Jul 30 20:09:19 2003:

Here is Dean on health coverage:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_hea
lth


#39 of 68 by tod on Wed Jul 30 20:24:54 2003:

This response has been erased.



#40 of 68 by rcurl on Wed Jul 30 23:19:16 2003:

It benefits them by lowering attacks upon those MCSEs by the ciminality caused
by our present drug policies. The benefit probably exceeds the cost - most
preventative medicine does.


#41 of 68 by tod on Wed Jul 30 23:23:56 2003:

This response has been erased.



#42 of 68 by gelinas on Wed Jul 30 23:44:30 2003:

("MCSE": acronym of "middle class straight edge."  

It looks like "criminality" are those people defined as criminals because of
our current drug policies.)


#43 of 68 by tod on Wed Jul 30 23:59:40 2003:

This response has been erased.



#44 of 68 by polytarp on Thu Jul 31 00:05:37 2003:

What's wrong with narcotics?1


#45 of 68 by tod on Thu Jul 31 00:08:51 2003:

This response has been erased.



#46 of 68 by polytarp on Thu Jul 31 00:09:16 2003:

And opioids have nothing to do with health care?


#47 of 68 by other on Thu Jul 31 04:13:29 2003:

Holy shit!  A true ironic remark that is actually funny and posted by 
polytarp!  I never thought I'd see the day...


#48 of 68 by goose on Thu Jul 31 20:34:16 2003:

It was an accident, it will never happen again.


#49 of 68 by richard on Wed Aug 6 19:41:25 2003:

Dean is on the cover of Time and Newsweek this week.  he seems to be
hot at the moment...


#50 of 68 by gull on Tue Aug 12 21:06:15 2003:

Re #43: It seems like we have two choices when it comes to "hard" drug
offenders:  Either we give them treatment to overcome their addictions,
or we put them back on the street still addicted and watch them commit
more crimes until finally they get locked up for life.  In that case, we
end up paying for their health care for the rest of their lives, so
paying for treatment sounds like the cheaper option.


#51 of 68 by novomit on Tue Aug 12 22:52:03 2003:

Or, we could just put them to sleep. 


#52 of 68 by russ on Wed Aug 13 02:13:40 2003:

Re #51:  Great idea.  Rather than putting up with burglary and such
from drug addicts, they'll then be motivated to kill to avoid being
arrested and accused because the penalty for murder is no worse.

I'd like to introduce you to this old politician.  His name's Draco...


#53 of 68 by novomit on Wed Aug 13 09:27:54 2003:

Well, it would do wonders for the population problem . . . 


#54 of 68 by oval on Wed Aug 13 11:21:09 2003:

so would genocide, nuclear warfare, and re-electing Bush.



#55 of 68 by novomit on Wed Aug 13 11:24:54 2003:

Youhave to think of the greater good though. Genocide might kill a lot of
people, but think of all the good it would do to all those who are left?
Surely you wouldn't mind dying for the greater good, yes?


#56 of 68 by oval on Wed Aug 13 12:03:44 2003:

harhar


#57 of 68 by novomit on Wed Aug 13 12:05:29 2003:

Dammit, people criticise me for lack of ironic sense and when i finally use
it, no one gets it. maybe I should stick to being direct?


#58 of 68 by gull on Wed Aug 13 18:52:14 2003:

Sometimes you have to tag your sarcasm for the humor-impaired.


#59 of 68 by novomit on Wed Aug 13 19:03:08 2003:

Suppose you suffer for humour impairment myself though? 


#60 of 68 by mynxcat on Thu Aug 14 16:31:32 2003:

I was just going to say whag resp 57 said. Russ needs to tweak his 
sarcasm meter :P


#61 of 68 by klg on Sun Aug 17 00:36:22 2003:

[O]ne of the problems with our party is people will say anything to get 
to be president of the United States..."  

HOWARD DEAN
MSNBC's "Buchanan & Press," 8/12/03


#62 of 68 by gull on Sun Aug 17 00:47:25 2003:

I'd say that's the problem with politicians in general.  Examples from 
both parties abound.


#63 of 68 by klg on Sun Aug 17 00:49:37 2003:

Mr. gull,
Do you mean that Mr. Dean is lying when he says that politicians will 
lie?
That makes sense, we suppose.


#64 of 68 by goose on Sun Aug 17 01:18:51 2003:

How could you extract that from what David said?  We think David was saying
that what Mr. Dean said is applicable to either party not just the one of Mr.
Dean's.  I also find that to be true, and a problem as well.


#65 of 68 by polytarp on Sun Aug 17 01:29:14 2003:

David?!  Wahjat david?!


#66 of 68 by polytarp on Sun Aug 17 01:29:29 2003:

O< BROAD BUCK.


#67 of 68 by mary on Sun Aug 17 13:08:48 2003:

I like it just the way Dean said it.  It's a stronger
statement.


#68 of 68 by polytarp on Sun Aug 17 14:53:07 2003:

I agree with Mary Remmers.


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