This item is an open letter to 'lk' so please refrain from entering responses if you are not 'lk'. My dearest jewboy; Oddly enough and I must admit I should of figured it would be the case it has come to my attention that thousands of children are being held in Israeli prisons. Typically in a civilized nation children are released to the custody of thier parents whom are held responsible for their actions. Is this not the case in Israel? Is this anti-israeli propaganda? Or is it these are arab children? Recent remarks in passing on various news wires indicate this is not only common practice but seem to indicate this seems to be a stumbling block on the road to peace. I figure you are one who can inform me on this matter. Cordially, PVN38 responses total.
It should be noted I entered an item about this MONTHS ago.
You are not 'lk'. Go away.
If you didn't read my item them, why are you reading these responses now?!
I also am not lk, but for purposes of rasing the level of debate and informing those of us who are actually reading this, would you mind defining the word "children" as you use it in #0, please. (If we're talking 16-17 year olds, who even in the US are commonly tried as adults for crimes of the sort that Israel is likely imprisoning them for, then the impact is markedly lessened. If we're talking under 13 (the age at which adulthood is defined in Judaism), then it's a different ball of wax. Thanks for your forbearance.
So you can lower the defining age of children to your convenience?? So if you have a dozen gun-toting children aged 13, next thing you do is define children to be those who are under 10???
That's been the trend.
Judaism has defined 13 as the age of adulthood since long before there were firearms to tote. What was your point, #5?
Re #5: Using the defining age from the society of origin of the gun-toting children makes sense. If the adults consider someone to be of warrior age at 13 and send them to the fight, calling that fighter a "child" for the purpose of defense against their attacks is ridiculous. (Calling the perpetrators of the war "criminals against humanity" for using child soldiers is still valid.)
We are wondering how Mr. other's point squares with the fact that after leaving Egypt the Israelites were instructed to conduct a census, including only "every man over 20 years." (Ex. 30:14) - The generally accepted purpose of the census being to determine the size of the fighting force.
Yeah, other is wrong about adulthood being at 13.
It certainly is one definition of adulthood as accepted throughout the history of the Jewish religion. I cannot comment on #9 except to say that perhaps adulthood alone is insufficient basis among the Jewish people to engage in warfare. As for #10, well, sorry to break the news, but if you think that conclusion follows from #9 then your logic is seriously flawed, and if you have any other basis for your remark, I suggest you present it or else admit the fallacy and retract it.
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As even Leeron will surely admit, the typical teen being held by Israel is incarcerated for possession of, well, stones. Last I heard, throwing a stone at a tank carried an administrative penalty of six months in prison.
Other, I distinctly remember reading in an History textbook that it's a common MISCONEPTION that Jews think they're adults at age 13. It's about as truthful as "O ALL JEWS AR SWINDLERS" or aLL" JEWS HAVE BIG NOSES WHIC HTHEY USE TO SNIOFF OUT PLACES TO SWINDLE". Please show ANY source saying that they think they're thirteen-yearold adults.
I suppose the source I would point to is the bible ("old testament") or
the talmud, from which this practice originates, but as a Jew who was Bar
Mitzvahed and who was educated in Jewish religious school all the way
through high school (in parallel with secular schooling, not in place of
it), my primary source of authority on the subject is lifelong
experience.
Besides, what absolute arrogance could possibly permeate a legitimate
history textbook so thouroughly as to presume to dictate that what an
entire religious faith believes to be the definition of adulthood (a very
nebulous concept even in modern American law -- at least in application)
is a "misconception"? Your source is either being misrepresented, or it
is plainly of inadequate legitimacy to be relevant.
CAn you name ANY quote or SPECIFIC reference? I think I win, other.
http://www.jbuff.com/c032901.htm The origin of the Bar Mitzvah may be found in the "Mishnah". The Hebrew word "Mishnah" is derived from "shanah", to repeat. The "Mishnah" constitutes the first part of the Talmud, which is a collection of scriptural interpretations first written in the 3rd century of the Common Era. In the 6th Division of that book, called "Tohoroth", in the subdivision called "Niddah", or vows, verse 6 deals with the validity of vows by children and holds that the vows of a boy age thirteen are valid and that the same holds true for girls at age twelve. This interpretation then led to the custom of instituting the Bar Mitzvah ceremony and designating the thirteen year old an adult. Usually these Hebrew/ Aramaic words are translated as "Son of the Commandment". This designation first came into use in the late Middle Ages. Prior to that time other labels were attached to a thirteen year old, such as "Godol", meaning big or adult or "Bar Onshin", meaning responsible.
My private religion says 5 year olds are adults. So??? Please, incarcerating 13 year olds anywhere in the world ought to be a serious violation of atleast a dozen UN conventions. And what is more important is the reason that makes thirteen year olds take up weapons. Who is going to address that?
Re: 18:
PA Educating Children to Violence and Combat.
http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part3.html
Links to video clips from Palestinian television are provided:
=====
Song and Dance to Violence:
This MTV style music video calls upon children to attack Israelis with stones:
You will not be saved, Oh Zionist, from the volcano of my countys stones and
is sung to scenes of children throwing stones and participating in frenzied
war dances. [PA TV Mar. 2002- June 2003, repeatedly]
Rocks for Toys:
Young Palestinian children are taught to replace their toys and dolls with
rocks [May 2, 2001]
Killing all the Jews:
A teenage girl calls for the killing of Jews: We wont leave a single Jew here.
[Palestinian Authority TV, Oct. 22, 2000]
The Palestinian Authority sends different messages to the world in English
than to their people in Arabic
In the very same week that the Palestinian journalists union banned
journalists from photographing Palestinian children carrying weapons ...
saying that the pictures harm the Palestinian cause [AP The Jerusalem Post
Aug. 26, 2002] PA TV interviewed a child in his home - and for the purpose
of the interview - placed a Kalatchnikov automatic rifle with the bullet clip
over his shoulder. [Aug 23, 2002]
================
PA Indoctrination of Children to Seek Heroic Death for Allah - Shahada
http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part1.html
=====
Children convinced that death is best:
Two 11 year olds girls articulate their personal goal to Die for Allah -
Shahada, explaining that all Palestinian children see Shahada with its
promised Afterlife, as more worthwhile than living. [June 2002]
A Palestinian journalist to 7-year olds:
"Dont be afraid to die".
A Palestinian journalist asked a second grade child if he feared death. When
the child hesitated, the journalist shook her head to signal that the correct
answer was no, even for 7-year-olds [PATV, Oct. 29, 2000]
Farewell Letter Music Video
A young boy leaves a farewell letter to his parents and goes off to seek Death
for Allah - Shahada- describing the death he aspires as sweet. This PA
indoctrination clip is designed to offset a childs natural fear of death, by
depicting Shahada as heroic and tranquil. [PA TV 2001- 2003, repeatedly]
Muhammad Al Dura in Paradise Clip:
Through a child actor, this music video portrays the delightful Paradise of
Muhammad Al Dura, whose death in a crossfire was broadcast on TV. He is
portrayed flying a kite, frolicking on the beach and even at an amusement
park. The film-clip opens with the invitation to other children from Al Dura:
"I am waving to you not to part, but to say 'follow me'
[PA TV Dec 25, 2000 and repeatedly since then]
Yasser Arafat :
Arafat explains that dead Palestinian children- Shahids are the greatest
message to the world.
[PATV Jan. 15, 2002]
============================
As Golda Meir observed, Israel will have peace when the Arabs love their
children more than they hate the Jews.
http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part4.html -
A mother expresses joy at her son'’s Shahada - Death for Allah.
As distasteful as I find other, I think that in this case he makes an excellent case. Personally I think that if any person of any age or sex takes up arms..well they are no longer a non-combatant. The arab scum thay encourage such behavior should be dealt with. Oh bye the way pvn. Fuck you. If you want to send a personal letter to someone use email. I'll post any fucking time I want.
Re: 18 - some additional information for you: Wed Jul 16, 7:33 AM ET http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030716/168/4p2ez.html A Palestinian boy participating in a summer camp organized by the Islamic group Hamas, holds a mock rocket launcher as others show signs during a rally to demand the release of prisoners from Israeli jails in central Gaza City Wednesday July 16, 2003. The headbands read in Arabic ' No God but God and Mohammed is the Prophet of Allah'. The boy at right holds a sign showing pictures of jailed Hamas militants in custody in Israeli jails. (AP Photo/Efrem Lukatsky)
Thier sorry ass wouldn't be in jail if they weren't terrorists
I did not question the fact that children in Palestine are participating in attacks on Israelis. Nor am I saying that PA is not encouraging children to do. My question is, is it appropriate to jail children? And at what age do you stop?? I am sure any child can start firing a small pistol from eight onwards. Would you go ahead and seek their incarceration too?
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If they just smacked the back of a kid's hand and sent him home to his parents so they could throw him a big party, how long before these kids aren't just firing into the air or at targets, or acting as human shields for their big brothers, but murdering Jews? http://www.ictks.com/rush/graphics/terroristchildren.jpg http://www.idf.il/idf_in_pictures/images/2000/november/1nov00_5.jpg http://www.idf.il/idf_in_pictures/images/2000/november/1nov00_4.jpg http://www.mayorno.com/files/PalChild.jpg http://www.palestinefacts.org/images/palestinian_boys_jenin_2002.jpg http://www.palestinefacts.org/images/palestinian_girl_explosives.jpg It should be clear to you, from the previous posts, that we can't use American standards of childhood innocence to judge this situation. These children are being rasied in a culture of death, destruction, hatred, and mayhem, and the squishy notions of childhood "innocence" that we hold here in America simply do not apply there.
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re25: you just decribed willow run michigan, WALTER.
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Re #23: If a small child is firing a pistol, said child is properly removed from the custody of the people who allowed such to happen and placed in foster care. Preferably, where no race-hatred is taught.
Seems as if these children may be better off in Israeli jails than living with parents who are happy to "sacrifice" them for the cause. According to my analysis of a representative sample (from Defense for Children International), 60% of these children are 16-18 years old. 22% are 15, 9% are 14, 6% are 13 and 3% are 12. DCI lists their offenses not as throwing stones at tanks but: | arrested on suspicion that they performed what may be termed 'Intefada | Offences' - endangering the lives of passengers travelling on public | transport, throwing petrol bombs, and attacks on the police.
Oh, now there's a quote for future use: "Leeron said back in 2003 that he thinks Palestinian children are better off in jail than with their parents".
Scott, you've taken out of context a remark which is more than reasonable within it.
Hey, it's Leeron I'm dealing with here, not somebody who avoids quoting out of context.
Be careful in opposing, lest you become what you oppose.
Not a problem - just not enough hours in the day to spend on Grex doing a Leeron imitation. ;)
(Once again Scott demonstrates that he has ample time to launch personal attacks but no time to address issues of discussion.)
Fuck off, lk.
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