Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 58: Reverse Roe-v-Wade Now!

Entered by pvn on Fri Jul 4 06:40:12 2003:

Because it is bad law.  The "right" of women to abort is horribly sad,
and was very close to being passed in most all of the States over time
when the SCOTUS stepped in it and short circuited what should have been
a normal process.  Instead it has become an issue that has festered on
the body politic for decades.  Not to mention the aborted but I believe
there are a number of dead adults who would otherwise be alive today
where it not for that ruling.  Had the SCOTUS not ursurped
constitutional authority it didn't have, today most if not all States
would be exactly where they are now without grounds to be challenged. 
Perhaps a couple conservative states in the north might have held on to
antiquarian views just like they did slavery but its likely neighboring
states would have offered 'quicky abortions' to the general population
just like only Nevada offered 'quickly divorced' to the elite even more
decades ago and by the same right that the SCOTUS eliminated in
Roe-v-Wade.

If the SCOTUS had ruled on women voting the way it did on the abortion
issue we would still be fighting that one as well.
35 responses total.

#1 of 35 by gelinas on Fri Jul 4 13:23:13 2003:

Unfortunately, if Roe vs Wade were overturned now, it would be seen as a
rejection of the right to abort.  I think the result would be the immediate
passage of laws strictly limiting, and at least a few out right banning,
abortion.  It would take several years, possibly decades, to remove those
laws.

After all, that is exactly what is happening right now: legislatures continue
to pass laws strictly limiting abortion.  The _only_ reason they don't ban
it out right is Roe vs. Wade.  It would be a very simple matter for the
legislatures to do exactly the opposite and enact laws that expanded Roe vs.
Wade, but they aren't.


#2 of 35 by jmsaul on Fri Jul 4 15:13:08 2003:

What Joe said.


#3 of 35 by sabre on Fri Jul 4 15:39:02 2003:

Well said pvn. Abortion is murder ...pure and simple.
A women has her choice in the moment she chooses to spread her legs.
That's the only "woman's right to choose" that I support.
We need to enact laws that protect the rights of unborn children.


#4 of 35 by twenex on Fri Jul 4 16:18:58 2003:

What about women who are raped? Most people i know who reject abortion are
men...most legislators (conservative or otherwise) are men...more Southern
legislators are men...go figure.


#5 of 35 by pvn on Sat Jul 5 08:24:44 2003:

re#1: Isn't that exactly the rights of a State if they so choose to do?
Otherwise what use is State governments in the first place, just have
all law passed and prosecuted on a Federal level.  On the contrary, I
suspect if Roe-V-Wade were repealed the reaction of State governments
would reflect the views of their respective citizens which is what was
intended when the Constitution was enacted.  Where in your view does the
pressure to enact anti-abortion law come from?  The citizens?

re#2:  I think not.  I suspect the reaction of State's legislators would
be to individually enact either enabling legislation preserving the
status quo or to enact prohibition which would be quickly overturned.
My point is that Roe-V-Wade has purpetuated a debate that should have
been over long ago.  Nobody today seriously challenges a black person's
or a woman's right to vote.

re#3:  No. Abortion is a reasonably safe medical procedure with horrible
emotional consequences in many cases.  Fetuses don't vote and therefor
are not citizens so have no rights so abortion is not murder.

re#4: A recent study showed that the majority of women opposed abortion.
I suspect this is an artifact of the methodology or it may simply be
that women have an emotional attraction for children in general where as
men generally have a sexual attraction towards women.  What about women
who are raped?  Its a crime in the general catagory of assault and
battery so what?  What, you want rapists to pay child support?


#6 of 35 by gelinas on Sat Jul 5 08:42:55 2003:

You argue that if the Roe vs Wade decision did not exist we would still be
where we are today: abortion largely available.  Perhaps, if the decision had
not been made and the opinions deriving from it did not exist, the laws
prohibiting abortion would have been repealed.  You extend that, in #0, to
say that Roe vs Wade should be overturned to allow the legislatures to do what
they should have done and would have done.  You then argue that the
legislatures will act quickly to return us to our current state of abortion
being largely available.  I think you are short-sighted.  As you note, there
is wide-spread opposition to abortion.  The legislatures will react to that
oppositon WHICH WILL NOT DISAPPEAR if abortion is banned.  I think it will
take AT LEAST two decades to recover from overturning Roe vs Wade.


#7 of 35 by pvn on Sat Jul 5 08:58:34 2003:

Roe-V-Wade was ruled by SCOTUS at a time long ago where most States were
in the process of enacting State legislation allowing for the modern
medical procedure.  It was the '70s which was rather more than two
decades ago.  In my humble opinion it should have been over and done
with way back then.  Instead RvW has allowed the arguement to fester on
to this day.  The Roe of RvW has now come out calling for the repeal
which wouldn't even be on the radar scope had the legal process not been
subverted by that SCOTUS at the time.  The USA is a republic, not a
democracy and the fact that the majority of women might appear to hold
one view is moderated by another study which rank-orders issues shows
that abortion is rather low on the list.


#8 of 35 by sabre on Sat Jul 5 13:06:22 2003:

"No. Abortion is a reasonably safe medical procedure with horrible
 emotional consequences in many cases.  Fetuses don't vote and therefor
 are not citizens so have no rights so abortion is not murder."

According to this faulty reasoning any child who doesn't vote is without
rights. 
My daughter doesn't vote yet. She is a minor but she still has rights.
As for citizenship being a prerequisite for having rights...Ha
We give every third world indigent that floats over here on an inner-tube
rights. Predecent has already been established in courts concerning unborn
babies. If you murder a women carrying a child in her womb you are charged
with two murders. As for the rape scenario I hear that argument all the time.
It's usually coupled with "what if the life of the mother is at stake"
Both of those situations are rare.  Abortion on the otherhand isn't rare.
It has taken more lives than have been lost in all the wars America has ever
fought. It IS murder.


#9 of 35 by cyberpnk on Sat Jul 5 14:19:40 2003:

If you're against abortion, why not make birth control free and easily 
available? Oh, but I forgot; the same people who are against abortion 
are against birth control, as well. What these people are really against 
is SEX.


#10 of 35 by orinoco on Sat Jul 5 14:44:41 2003:

Some of them.  But not all of them.  Don't go underestimating people just
because you disagree with them.


#11 of 35 by jmsaul on Sat Jul 5 14:45:49 2003:

Re #5:  Most women may say they wouldn't personally get an abortion, but
          survey results consistently show that the majority favors abortion
        remaining legal.


#12 of 35 by drew on Sat Jul 5 19:08:47 2003:

Re #9: Life begins at erection.


#13 of 35 by rcurl on Sat Jul 5 19:12:32 2003:

Roe vs Wade was inevitable at about the time it occurred. The issue was
on its way to the Supreme Court one way or another. The decision wasn't
inevitable, however. That it came out the way it did was, of course, a
coincidence of the issue and the evolution of the court coming together to
yield that decision. 

Speculation now on where we would be without Roe Bs Wade or an equivalent
ruling at about that time is just that: speculation. I can see several
courses history could have taken, depending on other events that have not
occurred but could have. I like to think that the tendency of our nation
has been toward increased individual freedom - but we certainly see that
that can have up and downs, with some down occurring right now. 

In any case, I laugh at those that rant that abortion is "murder",
because, course, it is. But so what? So is killing in war, or in self
defense, or in the death penalty, all forms of currently santioned murder. 
If on the other hand you want to reserve the term "murder" for illegal
killing, then abortion is by defintion not murder, as it is sanctioned. 

It is in my opinion an inalienable right that women should have, and were
denied for too long, to control their own bodies over a sufficient period
for them to make a decision about continuing a pregnancy. It is *not* as
simple as women refusing men's sexual overtures, as men have had immense
control over women in the past (and present), physically, financially and
emotionally; control that women have not had over men.



#14 of 35 by russ on Sat Jul 5 19:28:52 2003:

Re #5 para 1:  No, if R v. W were repealed, the state governments
would take action reflecting the most vocal and organized faction of
the population, namely that which is dissatisfied with the status quo.
The majority of the people might not want to change anything, but
there are many examples of extremist pressure groups giving the
electorate something that they didn't want and have to take action
to repeal (see Kansas state education standards, reversed by voter
outrage over the right-wing stealth campaign).


#15 of 35 by pvn on Sun Jul 6 08:06:57 2003:

If Roe-v-Wade were repealed at the federal level and thrown back to the
States they would most likely pass relevent law.  The debate would be
over just as it would have been three decades or so ago if the SCOTUS
hadn't seen fit to legislate instead of act as it was originally
designed.


#16 of 35 by md on Sun Jul 6 12:49:36 2003:

If the abortion issue were thrown back to the states, then in two 
generations, tops, the US would be overrun by trailer trash.  I 
personally think that would be a good thing, but that might be a 
minority opinion here.


#17 of 35 by cmcgee on Sun Jul 6 16:26:44 2003:

And Mensans overrunning the US would be better???


#18 of 35 by rcurl on Sun Jul 6 17:40:05 2003:

Abortions have always been available and would still have been available
without Roe vs Wade. The big difference is whether they are safe for the
woman or not. 

I thought the Supreme Court did act as they were designed to act in Roe vs
Wade. Individual freedoms are ensconced in the Constitution, even if not
equally applied in reality. The right of a woman to control her own body,
a right that men enjoy, is as central to our society as is a woman's right
to vote (even if we had to amend to Constitution to create that right).



#19 of 35 by jazz on Sun Jul 6 20:35:24 2003:

        What I see as happening if Roe v. Wade was overturned:  the number of
fatalities from back-alley and illegal out-of-state abortions would invariably
rise.  Women's social status would fall as fewer women are able to maintain
careers.  Single motherhood would rise.  The lives of the rich would remain
more or less the same.


#20 of 35 by md on Sun Jul 6 23:26:16 2003:

I forget what statistic supported the claim, if any, but for a while 
there back in the '70s black militants were calling Roe v. Wade 
genocide.  I think that ended the same time as the global cooling scare.


#21 of 35 by jazz on Mon Jul 7 00:01:42 2003:

        "Legalized suicide" doesn't have the same rhetorical bite now does it?


#22 of 35 by gull on Mon Jul 7 15:32:22 2003:

Considering that most state legislatures have been pandering to the
right by passing laws limiting abortion, I have no doubts that it'd be
completely outlawed if Roe v. Wade were overturned.  State legislatures
tend to react to their most vocal constituants and favor religious
issues, even if those people are a minority.

Already in many states we have a situation where abortion is legal but
nearly impossible to get, due to a combination of state regulations and
intimidation by violent protesters.


#23 of 35 by klg on Mon Jul 7 16:43:15 2003:

re:  "#22 (gull):  ... I have no doubts that it'd be completely 
outlawed if Roe v. Wade were overturned."

Although, if you were better informed, you might have them.


#24 of 35 by janc on Mon Jul 7 16:48:42 2003:

I doubt it.  Pro-choice activists aren't very active because what they want
is essentially the status quo.  If Roe vs. Wade falls, there would be a big
pro-choice backlash.  How big?  I don't know.


#25 of 35 by tod on Mon Jul 7 17:15:40 2003:

This response has been erased.



#26 of 35 by jazz on Mon Jul 7 21:47:30 2003:

        Let's found a pro-choice faith and apply for federal funding for
faith-based charities to help poor women get abortion counseling.


#27 of 35 by tod on Mon Jul 7 21:51:04 2003:

This response has been erased.



#28 of 35 by polytarp on Tue Jul 8 11:18:28 2003:

Moonie.


#29 of 35 by russ on Tue Jul 8 21:38:57 2003:

No, Unitarianism is too wishy-washy.  You'd need a religion where
abortion is penance, a sacrifice one makes when one hasn't been
productive enough to support a(nother) child or when God gives you
a test by e.g. giving you a fetus with Down's or some other disorder
that should not be inflicted on a thinking, feeling being.

Call it the Church of Sanger.  Education and contraception would be
sacraments, of course; making one's self worthy and keeping out of
trouble would be tenets.  Sinful people have houses full of ill-clothed
kids that they never read to, and don't teach them that disease comes
from microbes and that people really did walk on the Moon.  Virtuous
people have houses full of books, and both houses and books are in
top shape.  Reading the newspaper is a mitzvah, watching television is
a sin, reading to children is a sacrament.  Learning biology and calculus
are mitzvahs, playing the lottery or with "crystals" are sins.

Ye gods, I think you could actually make this work.  There is enough
self-sacrifice inherent in the concept to make it attractive to a
certain group that needs that.  Done right, it could out-compete
Scientology without being at all odious.


#30 of 35 by other on Tue Jul 8 23:49:46 2003:

"...without being at all odious."  Heh.  By the sound of it, it is 
DESIGNED to be odious, at least to those whose views differ from yours.


#31 of 35 by russ on Wed Jul 9 22:48:40 2003:

Re #30:  Well, of course.  People who worship ignorance and canonize
the stupid deserve to be scandalized every waking moment.  If they
share any intellectual heritage with Calvinists they'll eventually
realize that the people who so outrage them are doing better than
they are and thus must be more favored by God... a moment which will
be noted with much hilarity by the Sangers.

Hmmm.  That's one thing that's missing from the Book of Sanger:  humor.
Gotta find a way to put some silliness in there somewhere.  Probably
have to hide it a bit so that the folks who can't stand humor don't
feel obligated to take notice and thus can continue to take part in
good conscience, but it oughtta be there.


#32 of 35 by flem on Thu Jul 10 17:30:45 2003:

Trust us, russ, there's plenty of humor there already.  


#33 of 35 by russ on Fri Jul 11 03:58:13 2003:

Oh, I see plenty... but it's gotta be the right kind, namely
fun for the participants rather than fun at their expense.


#34 of 35 by jolok on Tue Aug 26 18:04:52 2003:

Fascism, anyone?


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