Grex Agora46 Conference

Item 40: Speeding

Entered by flem on Thu Jun 26 22:07:52 2003:

I got another speeding ticket today.  This is the second one I've gotten
this year.  It was on the highway, and written for 5 over, so (the officer
tells me) there will be no points on my license for it.  I can afford the
fine, so there's really no damage to me from this.  
  What bums me out about it is that for something like the first 8 or 9 
years of my driving history, I cheerfully broke the speed limit all the 
time, even though a ticket at that time would have seriously 
inconvenienced me.  A year or two ago, however, I sort of vaguely decided 
that I just didn't care about getting places quickly enough to warrant 
risking a speeding ticket, and I've made what I consider a reasonable 
attempt to obey speed limits since then.  
  Predictably enough, the only two speeding tickets I've ever had have come
in the last year, when I've been trying not to speed.  Both times, I 
was not in a hurry, just driving along safely (if perhaps somewhat 
absently) on a route I drive often.  The first was on west bound Fuller
between north campus and downtown; the second was on eastbound M-14 
before the Main street on-ramp.  Both of these are areas where the 
speed limit suddenly lowers in preparation for an upcoming hazard 
while the road remains relatively straight and wide and safe.  Both times
I was aware of the hazard (the Fuller intersection and the Main street
on ramp, respectively), and was quite prepared to navigate it safely.  
In both cases, I even knew perfectly well what the speed limit was there, 
and that it changed suddenly.  I can't tell you how many times I've been 
driving past the main street on ramp, with the road perfectly clear, and
suddenly realized that I was going 15 mph over the speed limit and slowed 
down, well past the point where they caught me today. 
  What gets me about these tickets is that I don't think I could have 
avoided them.  Oh, sure, I could have slowed down in each case, but 
there would have been some other situation where the same thing would 
have happened.  Especially for M-14, they could probably catch me in 
that same spot at least half the time I go that way (which is my route to 
work, so it's at least five times a week, usually more).  
  I don't think I'm an unsafe driver.  I pay pretty close attention to the 
road and the other cars on it.  I leave plenty of space between myself and
cars around me.  I use my turn signal, leave my headlights on in the daytime, 
and generally drive pretty carefully.  But I don't think that I can prevent
myself from getting this kind of ticket in the future.  I don't think I'm 
capable of changing my driving patterns to conform to the speed limit
100% of the time even when exceeding it is clearly safe.  I try, but as
I've said, I often find that I'm exceeding the speed limit by a lot
without even having noticed it.  
  So, faced with the fact that I can't prevent myself from getting 
speeding tickets, I find myself strongly tempted to stop bothering to try.  
After all, what does it gain me?  If I reduce my chances of getting a 
ticket from (say) 3% to 2%, is that really worth the effort?  I say 
effort because it really is an effort to obey the speed limit sometimes. 

Sigh.  

111 responses total.

#1 of 111 by tod on Thu Jun 26 22:37:47 2003:

This response has been erased.



#2 of 111 by mdw on Fri Jun 27 02:27:14 2003:

There are certain kinds of places police like to hang out.  One of the
tricks to avoiding tickets is definitely to learn what those places are.
Expressways where the limit "irrationally" drops are a favorite place.
People in SE Michigan are not very good about driving right at the speed
limit, but this is very much a regional thing.  There are plenty of
other places where people religiously follow speed limits.  Also, in
some places, cops also are rumoured to preferentially target
out-of-towners.


#3 of 111 by senna on Fri Jun 27 03:13:51 2003:

I remember reading the report int he Ann Arbor News about the crackdown on
speeding at the M-14 bridge; it alarmed me, because I typically don't make
any significant effort to slow down at that area.  I didn't, anyway, but I
do cut speed now if I've been going a bit fast.  It's not unsafe, but the
speed limit is there for some cause.  Fortunately, I didn't tear through there
are 75 miles per hour when they were actually issuing tickets, so I got lucky.

Highway and mid-to-big town speedtraps rotate on a basis of what area the
local authorities want to concentrate on.  A few years ago the State decided
to put resources into controlling speeds on I-96 between US-23 and Lansing.
During that time frame I was making a lot of trips to Lansing, and barely a
trip went by in any direction that I did not see at least one or two
pullovers--often of cars who passed me at speeds more than 15 mph in excess
of the limit.  The typical speed of traffic gradually decreased as regular
travellers got the message.  When the enforcement stopped, speeds crept back
upwards.



#4 of 111 by gelinas on Fri Jun 27 03:53:30 2003:

Yes, I do think it worth the effort to try to obey the speed limits, Greg.
If only to reduce the number of people who are trying to run _me_ down.

M-14 was a regular part of my morning commute.  I think the speed limit
reduction at the Main Street on ramp (and Barton off-on ramp) quite
reasonable*.  Further, I think the right lane there to be particularly
unsafe.  So I would tap the brake, to disengage cruise control,
just before the speed-limit sign, and then start watching my mirrors.
If absolutely necessary to avoid a semi, I'd move into the right lane.
Otherwise, I'd expect the folks behind me to slow down.


* I think the reduction reasonable because the visibility from Main
Street is extremely limited, as is the opportunity to get up to speed.
Accelerating to 55 is easier and safer than trying to get to 70.  While the
visibility from Barton is better, the acceleration-lane is shorter AND
*up* hill.  Again, the merging cars are more likely to get to 55 than 70.
So I slow down, so they have room to merge *IF* I have to be in that lane.


#5 of 111 by jazz on Fri Jun 27 04:03:40 2003:

        I would've asked what Todd asked, but Todd asked it first ...


#6 of 111 by other on Fri Jun 27 05:01:19 2003:

"Absently" might be key here.  How did you respond when first noticing 
the presense of the police?


#7 of 111 by other on Fri Jun 27 05:01:42 2003:

s/presense/presence


#8 of 111 by void on Fri Jun 27 05:25:30 2003:

   Rumor among the cabbies I know is that the Ann Arbor police are
increasing the number of tickets they write per month from around
20,000 to around 35,000.


#9 of 111 by pvn on Fri Jun 27 06:08:39 2003:

Its a safe source of revenue like traffic light cameras and
"privatizing" collects of ticket fines.


#10 of 111 by mary on Fri Jun 27 10:38:15 2003:

Re: #8  It's not rumor.  It's a revenue generating mechanism
that has been cheerfully reported in the Ann Arbor News at least
twice.


#11 of 111 by jmsaul on Fri Jun 27 13:15:23 2003:

Nice.  Bastards.


#12 of 111 by gull on Fri Jun 27 13:37:26 2003:

You have to keep in mind that these days speeding tickets are basically
another form of taxation.  It's a sort of game -- you need to drive
safely (and there are places where driving at the speed limit is *not*
very safe) while avoiding speeding in places where enforcement is heavy.


#13 of 111 by jep on Fri Jun 27 14:07:34 2003:

As far as I can tell, there's no speed limit on US-23 through Ann Arbor 
in either direction.  I've driven the road at 80 mph at times.  I've 
been passed when doing so.  In 7 or 8 years of driving that road almost 
daily, I'm sure I haven't seen as many as a couple of dozen cars pulled 
over, total.


#14 of 111 by mdw on Fri Jun 27 17:45:33 2003:

I've heard that the place the A^2 police have staked out is actually
reported in the papers (or some such).  I don't know how much truth
there is in that.

To some extent, where police concentrate their attention is based on
where people complain.  For a number of years the residents along the
southern end of Golfside must have been really complaining, because
there were frequently cop cars lying in wait along that 25 mph section,
and residents near there would warn visiting friends to be careful about
that.


#15 of 111 by dcat on Fri Jun 27 18:30:38 2003:

The AA News does print, in the local section every week, what areas the AAPD
says they'll be concentrating on.

To some extent, I wonder why people complain instead of just obeying the damn
law, but then I don't drive.


#16 of 111 by jmsaul on Fri Jun 27 18:40:53 2003:

It's pretty obvious you don't drive if you're saying that.  Speed limits are
set for a variety of reasons, and all too often they have little to do with
safety.  They're often too low for the road in question and its traffic
density.  Sometimes this is done specifically so the government can entrap
drivers into speeding and thus get more money (there are some towns in Ohio
that are notorious for this -- one was so bad that the Governor smacked them
down, and I think the feds got involved to).


#17 of 111 by mynxcat on Fri Jun 27 19:42:15 2003:

I don't mind when the speed posted is way below the safe speed for a 
given road. At best, it's inconvnient. However, when the posted speed 
is too high for the average driver to navigate through the normal 
traffic on a given stretch of road, that's when it's more than 
annoying, and could prove disastrous.

Sure people should guage for themselves what speed works, but most 
people assume (and for good reason) that 5 or 10 above the speed limit 
is fine, and when the posted speed limit itself is a little too high 
for safety...


#18 of 111 by gull on Fri Jun 27 20:40:46 2003:

There are some times when I consider not speeding to be unsafe.  A key
example would be when you have to travel in the left lane to make one of
the left exits that are unfortunately common around here.  If you're
going 65, you're a hazard to the rest of the traffic in that lane, which
is often doing 80+.


#19 of 111 by jazz on Fri Jun 27 21:06:55 2003:

        Golfside was just a great speed trap.  The road doesn't look like other
roads that are 25mph do, and it significantly lower than any other road in
the area, or the rest of Golfside.


#20 of 111 by mdw on Fri Jun 27 22:50:12 2003:

Different states have different formulas for signs and speed limits.
I've heard Ohio is pretty lax about warning you about road hazards, so
you have to watch and take care.

Michigan is pretty anal about putting up curve signs, lowering the speed
limit for hazards, etc., so it's very rare to find a situation where the
speed limit would not be safe.  It's a bit more common to find
situations where many cars won't be able to reach the speed limit (for
instance, turning off E.bound Huron River Drive onto S.bound Hogback).
And it's fairly common to find sections that you *could* travel at the
speed limit, except the road has crumbled enough that the limiting
factor is your comfort and concern for the longevity of your suspension.
Main st. south of Stadium was once like this -- signs said 45, but most
cars went 35.  I've heard that one of the algorithms for setting speed
limits is to measure the speed of traffic & pick the speed at which 80%
of traffic is below that speed.  They must have done this just before
fixing up main street, because sure enough, now that the road is nice
and smooth and you *could* go 45, the speed limit is now 35.


#21 of 111 by tod on Fri Jun 27 22:57:18 2003:

This response has been erased.



#22 of 111 by drew on Sat Jun 28 04:17:05 2003:

SuuuuuEEEEEEEEEEE!


#23 of 111 by senna on Sat Jun 28 07:16:14 2003:

Golfside is 1/2 of a residential area, and I drive it regularly with no
trouble.  I just don't hurry when I take it.  

There are some roads where the speed limit appears artificially low, but there
are other factors involved--Stadium Boulevard is nice and luxriously wide,
but since most of it travels through residential areas, the limit is 35.  Same
with Platt road, among others.  The one drive that annoys me is Huron Parkway,
which is 35 north of Washtenaw despite being wide and lacking on-street
housing.  Theoretically, the limit is due to the curves, but they aren't bad
at all.



#24 of 111 by gelinas on Sat Jun 28 11:24:32 2003:

(That stretch of Huron Parkway was 40 a few years back; I've not figured out
why "they" lowered the speed limit there.)


#25 of 111 by jmsaul on Sat Jun 28 13:36:37 2003:

You haven't seen the speed traps, then.  Remember, the City of Ann Arbor has
budget problems.


#26 of 111 by oval on Sat Jun 28 18:31:32 2003:

i've been recruited to drive to spain. is my US driver's liscence valid?



#27 of 111 by gelinas on Sat Jun 28 18:51:34 2003:

The speed limit there dropped a couple of years ago.  I don't drive it often,
so no, I've not noticed speed traps along Huron Parkway.


#28 of 111 by void on Sat Jun 28 20:52:32 2003:

   Re #10: Thanks.  I had missed the articles in the AA News.


#29 of 111 by jmsaul on Sun Jun 29 04:39:26 2003:

Re #26:  I *think* it depends on what kind of visa you're on.  My US driver's
         license worked two weeks ago in England, but if you're some kind of
         permanent resident or on a work visa it could be a problem.


#30 of 111 by tpryan on Sun Jun 29 17:48:22 2003:

        Back before Nixon turned many of his fellow Americans into
crooks by lowering the speed limit to 55, there was standards in
place as to when a freeway would be 55 and when a higher limit
could be used.  One of these was freeways in urban areas, or 
possibly measured by distance between exits, where there would
be the possibility of slower traffic, or exits/entrance ramps
that could not be build for longer deceleration/acceleration.


#31 of 111 by sno on Sun Jun 29 20:52:34 2003:

I used to live on the stretch of Golfside previously mentioned.  I was
actually involved in posting signs on my front yard requesting reasonable
speeds.

Golfside in this section is very unique in the county.  One side is 
densly residentualized, while the opposite side was a golf course and
pretty much nothing else until about 12 years ago when a Jehovah's
Witness hall was built, and later for the day care.

Having a (short) driveway that was connected directly to Golfside was
a terror at some points in the day.  Frequently traffic would take
advantage of the long sight lines to drive as fast as 60 mph.  Let's not
reflect on the fact that there are no sidewalks and numerous children
in the area.  My previous career required me to stop by my home
multiple times a day.  I nearly lost my life from a rocket (wo)man on
two separate occasions.  The neighbors lost cats to that strip due to
the excessive speeds.

Because of the constant battle with the State/County/Township Police on
what to do about this peculiar situation, we were happy to move out at
our earliest opportunity.  Yet, my sympathies lie firmly in the camp
of the residents along that strip.  The authorities won't bend their
rules to alleviate the hazard, and such a compromise would require
several authorities to modify policy since it is a physical township
border.  My perception is that a single stop sign midway on the 1 
mile strip would help immensely.

Anyway, this topic was about getting caught safely speeding.  I freely
admit to the safely speeding, and have been fortunate to not have any
current points on my record (from getting caught).



#32 of 111 by gull on Mon Jun 30 16:12:13 2003:

Re #20: It varies depending on what part of Michigan you're in, too. 
You're a lot less likely to be warned about road hazards in, say,
Keweenaw County than you are in Washtenaw County.  Up there they don't
generally post "PAVEMENT ENDS" signs, for example.  You're supposed to
notice that there's gravel in front of you. ;>

Re #31: One issue that traffic engineers are just starting to become
aware of is the psychological aspect of speed control.  It turns out
that if you post a road at, say, 30 mph, but build it wide and straight
so it looks like a faster road, people will drive faster.  If you add
stuff that makes the road look more city-like, or more difficult to
navigate, like safety islands or protruding curb areas, people tend to
drive slower.  Happily, a lot of these features are also more friendly
for pedestrians.  A safety island in the center of a major road makes
crossing it a lot safer, for instance, because it breaks it up into two
crossings with a pause to look for traffic in between.


#33 of 111 by mdw on Mon Jun 30 16:18:52 2003:

Most european countries accept US driver's licenses, but some require
other stuff.  Sweden & Denmark didn't require anything when I was there
15 years ago.  I think Germany required an "international driver's
license", which isn't good by itself but something you get and carry in
addition to your regular national driver's license.  I don't believe a
visa changes this per se, but there's likely some sort of time limit
that means if you're a long-term visitor or resident, you have to get
the local license.  This is all going to vary country by country -
probably best to check with their embassy or DMV before actually
visiting.  Check about insurance too.


#34 of 111 by flem on Mon Jun 30 17:34:07 2003:

re: way back there:  I drive a '96 Plymouth Grand Voyager, light blue.  (It
was cheap.)  When stopped, I was polite and resigned, had my insurance and
registration and stuff ready.  As it turned out, I had forgotten to renew my
license plates (the officer was nice about this; she wrote me a "waiveable
ticket", which basically means taht I had to go out and renew my registration
and present proof and the ticket would go away), so I think that even had the
officer been inclined towards mercy (unlikely, given some of the above
responses), she would have written me a ticket about that anyways.  The
ticket was written for the minimum possible (1-5 over), and the officer
didn't give me any of that "why were you going so fast?  where were you
going?  drive slower in the future" dialogue I usually get when pulled
over.  

This morning, as I drove the same route again, I made some observations.  The
speed limit where I get on (maple) is either 65 or 70 (not sure which; there
are no signs between the entrance and the next sign).  There is a bridge over
the highway a mile or so down the road; the sign there reads "Reduced speed
ahead - 55".  The next sign is the "Speed limit 55" sign, which is at the top
of a downhill leftward curve, at the bottom of which (maybe 1/4 mile from the
sign) is the Main street entrance ramp.  The place where the speed trap was
laid (and it was definitely a speed trap; there were several police cars
waiting there) was about halfway down the curve at a point where the left
shoulder is particularly broad, just barely out of sight of the sign around
the curve, maybe 200 meters past it.  
  In other words, it was a speed trap set up not only to catch people who
ignored the sign, but also anyone who saw the sign and was in the process
of decelerating slowly.  Since it was close to the bottom of a downhill
slope, they probably catch a lot more people than a disinterested observer
might consider to be actually breaking the law.  

So, to review.  The reasons as I see them to obey the speed limit go
something like this:
  1.  To obey the law as a matter of principle. 
  2.  To avoid getting an expensive ticket. 
  3.  To drive safely. 
  4.  To encourage other people to drive more slowly and therefore safely.

Am I missing any?

However...
  2.  I've made what I consider to be a reasonable effort (due diligence,
if you will) to obey the speed limit this past year, and I've gotten two
tickets for my trouble.  Moreover, based on my own observations (above) and
on what other people are saying (ticket quota increased, published speed
traps, etc.), I'm becoming convinced that the Ann Arbor law enforcement
establishment is using tactics that can result in my getting a speeding
ticket even if I am making an active effort to drive with in the speed
limit.  

  3.  As has been said above, the speed limit is often not consistent with
safety.  Sometimes it's too slow for safety, sometimes too fast...  At any
rate, it's clear that every driver has the responsibility to drive safely
to the best of his or her ability, taking into acount the circumstances,
regardless of what the speed limit says.  So, IMO, the speed limit is
essentially irrelevant to safety concerns when driving.  

  4.  Again, it's been observed many times that driving slower than the
surrounding traffic is more dangerous than driving at the same speed.
Obstinately refusing to drive faster than the posted limit is not likely
(IMO) to get other people to slow down, it's more likely to irritate them
and impair their judgement.  This is akin to randomly tapping one's brakes
when someone is tailgating you.  Sure, it might be somewhat satisfying, but
it's almost certainly safer to change lanes or pull over and let them pass
you.  


So, basically, that leaves 1 as the only reason I consider valid for paying
any attention whatsoever to the speed limit, and the more I hear about
speeding tickets being used as a source of revenue rather than as an
attempt to enforce the law, the less I care about this.  After all, if this
is a sort of backhanded taxation, and I'm paying the tax, why shouldn't I
actually *do* the activity they're taxing me for?  If they (the law
enforcement/government community) are going to turn this into a game, why
shouldn't I play the game in such a way as to benefit myself?  Why should I
hold myself to a higher standard of compliance to a set of essentially
arbitrary rules than the bodies who make and enforce those rules?




#35 of 111 by carson on Mon Jun 30 17:52:48 2003:

(my $.02:  part of the problem is that you're playing along and paying the
tickets upfront instead of fighting them.  an informal hearing on the
ticket costs nothing but time (yours and the officer's) and might result
in a dismissed ticket.  even if it doesn't, you're still making the ticket
less cost-effective by making the officer show up in court to back it,
which takes them off the road.) 




#36 of 111 by mdw on Mon Jun 30 19:00:19 2003:

For what it's worth, the point of the "reduced speed ahead" signs is
that you're supposed to reduce your speed before you reach the sign.
Parking tickets have been used as a revenue source for years by A^2.


#37 of 111 by tod on Mon Jun 30 19:07:11 2003:

This response has been erased.



#38 of 111 by rcurl on Mon Jun 30 19:15:10 2003:

(That sure got flem's goat. But I have no sympathy for him: he was
speeding, by admission, and got a ticket. His anguish ia irrelevant. I
suspect, though, there is more to it: I *don't* make a "reasonable effort
(due diligence, if you will) to obey the speed limit", though I note and
act upon it automatically if not exactly accurately - and very rarely get
speeding tickets (and then only on open empty roads in broad daylight when
I'm going 5 over and there is not a cop or even another driver in sight. I
don't know how they do this....)



#39 of 111 by gull on Mon Jun 30 19:39:06 2003:

Re #34: It's worth it to try to avoid tickets as much as possible,
though, because the insurance companies are in on this too.  They'll
raise your rates if you accumulate a lot of speeding tickets.

Re #36: Yeah...and as annoying as it is, sometimes you do have to put
some wear on your brakes to get under the limit in time. ;)


#40 of 111 by jazz on Mon Jun 30 20:05:08 2003:

        It's got more to do with what you drive, than how you drive, unless
you're driving like a complete nut.  I've had flashy or sketchy looking cars
before, and they consistently got attention, and I consistently got tickets.
Ordinary looking cars in good repair don't get as much attemtion, and have
lead to me being more-or-less ticket free.


#41 of 111 by tod on Mon Jun 30 20:12:00 2003:

This response has been erased.



#42 of 111 by jazz on Mon Jun 30 20:14:13 2003:

        You hafta ask?


#43 of 111 by mynxcat on Mon Jun 30 20:17:40 2003:

jazz has got tickets? /gasp


#44 of 111 by jazz on Mon Jun 30 20:18:04 2003:

        No moving violations.


#45 of 111 by tod on Mon Jun 30 20:34:50 2003:

This response has been erased.



#46 of 111 by flem on Mon Jun 30 20:46:13 2003:

I'm not sure what rane seems to think gets my goat, other than rane himself.
Of course my anguish is irrelevant, as is rane's opinion of it.  
Yes, I was technically speeding, that's what the laser said and I 
believe it.  I've no interest in contesting the ticket.  That's not the 
point.  What is relevant (and, I think, interesting enough to spend time 
discussing) are the reasons for my "anguish", which rane seems to have 
missed.

Briefly, since I'm at work...  With regards to speeding, I don't believe it's
possible to obey the law without what I consider an excessive effort.  The
reason for this is not that the law is unreasonable, but that, as is the
situation for parking tickets, aggressive enforcement is *profitable* 
for the people who enforce the law.  Can you say "conflict of interest"?  

There's more to it than that, but I don't seem to be able to articulate it
briefly right now. 



#47 of 111 by tod on Mon Jun 30 21:07:15 2003:

This response has been erased.



#48 of 111 by slynne on Mon Jun 30 21:14:54 2003:

I think flem just had some bad luck. I generally drive the speed limit 
but there are plenty of times when I dont. I could easily get a ticket. 


#49 of 111 by gull on Mon Jun 30 23:16:24 2003:

I've successfully avoided parking tickets everywhere except St. Paul,
Minnesota and the University of Wisconsin-Madison campus.  (One of those
was due to unfamiliarity with the local laws, the other was due to
oversleeping.)  I've so far avoided speeding tickets, too, but not
because I haven't richly deserved one on many occasions.


#50 of 111 by jmsaul on Tue Jul 1 02:43:17 2003:

You've avoided parking tickets while living in Ann Arbor?  That's unusuall,
assuming you own a car and work in town.


#51 of 111 by polygon on Tue Jul 1 06:27:01 2003:

One of the most notorious speed traps in the history of Michigan was in
Webberville, on what was then US-16 between Detroit and Lansing (this was
before I-96 was built).  I don't have any statistics, but my understanding
is that if you drove through Webberville, there was a good chance of
getting a ticket there.

What made this all so bad, in the eyes of the public and ultimately of the
state government, was that the fine money went into the pockets of the
Leroy Township (Webberville) justices of the peace.  You see, their
compensation consisted of the fines they imposed.

The Michigan Constitution of 1963 abolished the office of Justice of the
Peace, AND prohibited a public officer from profiting from the penal
fines, specifically in response to the Leroy Township situation.


#52 of 111 by scg on Tue Jul 1 06:58:27 2003:

I've only ever gotten one speeding ticket, and it was in Michigan.  I was
pulled over for doing 19 over the limit, ticketed for five over, and given a
lecture on how I shouldn't expect to get away with things that older people
could get away with (I was 17 at the time).  I noticed at that point that out
of the $60 ticket, only $20 was the fine.  The other $40 was split among
various fees.  Was this to get around the rules Larry talked about?

Doing my Ann Arbor to Detroit suburbs commute almost every day for several
years, I got in the habit of driving at least 80 (generally 85 or so through
the Washtenaw County section of M-14 where I never saw anybody getting pulled
over, and slowing down to 80, which was considered a safe speed, in Wayne
County).  I left Michigan doing 85-90 for most of the trip, once I got past
Minnesota, and didn't see a cop until just West of Salt Lake City.  He pulled
me over for 84 in a 75 zone, and in true Utah style gave me a lecture saying
"you need to learn that the speed limit in this state is 75, not 84," while
I tried to decide whether to respond, "you pulled me over for nine over?" or
"I was only doing 84?"  I also got a written warning there, but no ticket.
The written warning is still up on my fridge.  It says, "this is not a summons
to appear in court.  It is a friendly contact by the Highway Patrol regarding
improper driving."  Utah is a strange place.  But now I live somewhere where
almost nobody drives 80+ mph, and 75 is considered quite fast.  From time to
time I still drive in places where 80 seems to be considered the accepted
speed, and it now feels incredibly fast and uncomfortable to me.

For a different approach to such things, I spent five days in Montana a couple
months ago.  Just about everywhere I've done significant amounts of driving,
the speed limit has been treated as a guideline for the speed everybody should
go 5-10 mph faster than.  Montana, being a fairly liberatarian state, has
taken a different aproach, with the speed limits instead being set higher than
they expect anybody to drive.  That took some getting used to.


#53 of 111 by gull on Tue Jul 1 13:14:19 2003:

Re #50: I both live and work in Pittsfield Township.  When I visit
downtown I tend to park in one of the parking garages, though I
occasionally park in metered spaces.

Re #52: You're in California, right?  Your comment about people driving
75 or less surprises me.  One of my memories from visiting California
with a friend of mine, about five years ago, is of going 85 mph in the
center lane of a freeway near San Jose, while a steady stream of people
in SUVs flipped us off as they passed in the left lane and gestured for
us to move over to the right lane, where the trucks were doing 65.

When I was living in St. Paul, on the other hand, I was surprised by how
carefully people followed the speed limits on the freeways.


#54 of 111 by janc on Tue Jul 1 14:22:02 2003:

Last time I drove on the LA freeways, the speed fluctuated between 30mph and
80mph - speed up, slow down, speed up again - like compression waves.  I was
constantly speeding up or slowing down, never cruising.  I remember San
Francisco area freeways as being substantially tamer though.


#55 of 111 by orinoco on Tue Jul 1 15:38:50 2003:

We recently had guests from Madison who commented on the "awful drive" between
Madison and Ann Arbor.  We assumed they were talking about passing through
Chicago.  Actually, they were talking about I-94 in Michigan.  They thought
it was too big, too crowded, and _far_ too fast.  I understood the first two
complaints, but I had to remind myself that not everyone drives like Michigan.


#56 of 111 by other on Tue Jul 1 16:05:20 2003:

Tell them that interstates are about getting from point A to point B as 
fast as possible, and if they want the slow, scenic route they should 
take US-12.


#57 of 111 by scg on Tue Jul 1 18:04:29 2003:

53:
        By the time I moved here, the average speed on San Jose area freeways
was probably somewhere around 5 mph.  With hundreds of thousands of people
out of work (and thus not commuting), traffic now occasionally moves as fast
as 70 or 75.  I-80 in San Francisco, Oakland, and Berkeley still tops out
around 30 for much of the day.


#58 of 111 by senna on Tue Jul 1 21:18:59 2003:

I watch the locals for cues on what the "actual" speed limit is.  I drove
through Arkansas on my way to Texas with 70 mph speed limits and signs saying
something to the effect of "speed limits strictly enforced."  My usual policy
is to do a speed closely approximating the speed limit until I see a healthy
sampling of local vehicles doing otherwise.  I didn't see any local vehicles
doing anything other than speeds very close to 70, so I kept it down close
to 70 myself and drove very comfortably.

Perhaps two hours into Arkansas I noted with considerable relief that there
was finally a faster moving vehicle, a Durango, preparing to pass me in the
left lane.  It looked to be doing about 80 as it went by, and I prepared to
hit the accel button on my cruise control, until I looked at the plate...

Naturally, the first car I saw doing anything close to 80 in the state was
from Michigan.


#59 of 111 by polygon on Tue Jul 1 22:35:24 2003:

Not so very long ago, the one thing that everybody complained about on
the drive between Detroit and Chicago was Indiana 39.

Indiana 39 was a twelve mile stretch of extremely crowded 2-lane road
which ran from the end of I-94 at the Michigan/Indiana boundary, south
to the Indiana Turnpike.

So the immense volume of traffic pouring west on I-94 was funneled onto a
dozen miles of Indiana 39 to get to the nearest Indiana expressway.  And
the Detroit-bound traffic, just as heavy, would take Indiana 39 in the
other direction to get to the west end of I-94. 

In essence, Michigan built I-94 right up to the state line, and Indiana
refused for years to extend it any further. 

After all, (1) all that Detroit/Chicago traffic had little to do with
Indiana, and (2) if I-94 were extended all the way to Chicago, it would
dramatically reduce the toll revenue on the Indiana Turnpike.

Eventually, the logic of traffic volumes won out, and now you can drive
all the way to Chicago on I-94.

The fascinating thing about I-94 today is the extremely heavy volume of
trucks.  It was while commuting on I-94 (sometimes I-96) that I learned
to recognize a Kenworth, a Freightliner, a Western Star, a Peterbilt,
and so on.


#60 of 111 by gelinas on Wed Jul 2 00:38:25 2003:

We've discussed the speed limit on M-14 at Main before.  The police have been
patrolling it in packs for about a year now.  What some see as a a "speed
trap" I see as a reasonable attempt to enforce a safety-related speed limit
that is routinely and reckless ignored.

My habit was to disengage the cruise control as I passed the 55-MPH sign. 
I very seldom had to use my brakes to decellerate.  I was never stopped for
speeding, although I'd see others who had been stopped.  I got the impression
that if you were making a reasonable effort to slow down, you were fine.


#61 of 111 by tpryan on Wed Jul 2 00:50:18 2003:

        With that much truck traffic, something is wrong.  Rail should
be a viable solution.  But trucking is probably a lazy solution.


#62 of 111 by i on Wed Jul 2 02:23:50 2003:

Re: #61
With trucking, all the trucking companies can be worthless idiots (in
terms of getting your freight to where you need it on time & in good
shape at a reasonable rate), but if one lone owner-operator does a good
job for you, you're covered.  (If you've got more freight than one guy
can haul, don't worry - he'll talk about you keeping him busy, and more
capacity will quickly appear.)  In any case, swarms of trucks can move
pseudo-randomly around the very extensive public road network without
much problem, planning, lead time, or capital investment beyond the
trucks themselves (for the truckers, that is).

Railroads are a totally different beast.  They don't go most places -
compare the number of businesses that can ship & receive by truck with
the number that can ship & receive by train.  Where there *is* service,
it's almost certainly monopolized by one railroad - if they can't or
don't feel like meeting your needs, then forget it.  Train logistics
are vastly slower & more ponderous then truck logistics - think of 'em
as landgoing container ships.  Substantial capacity upgrades generally
involve the railroad spending a *lot* of money, often with long lead
times.

There has been talk about "railroading" some of America's major long-
haul trucking routes.  Truckers would drive their rigs onto rail flat
cars at one end, then board a "rolling truck stop" passenger car (with
showers, restaurant, sleeping rooms, etc.) for the trip to the other
end.  Drive off, drive the trucks waiting there on, & repeat.  I have
not heard that any railroad has risked the money to try it, though.


#63 of 111 by russ on Wed Jul 2 04:27:41 2003:

Re #61:  The two days of freight snarls around Chicago probably
keeps a lot of stuff on the freeways.  It takes as long to get
across Chicago as it does to get to Chicago from the west coast,
and there are some 3500 truck trips per day between railyards
in Chicago just to transfer between east and west lines.

Makes you wonder what it would cost to condemn some new rights of way
100 miles south to get away from the current development, and what
the obsolete yards and RsOW could fetch as real estate today...


#64 of 111 by mdw on Wed Jul 2 06:51:31 2003:

Actually, the whole point of containers is to get rid of a lot of that
"ponderousness".  It's not so easy to spot out east, where railroad
traffic is pretty thoroughly hidden by everything else, but if you go
out west, it becomes more obvious.  There are lots of trains that
consist of almost nothing but containers, and the box cars are in fact
fast disappearing because of this.  Those containers in turn go on
ships, or in many cases trucks.  Containers going by truck aren't
obvious, but if you look careful, you can spot them; they're the ones
with the funny mismatched frames under the box (typically a slightly
different color).

An older scheme was to just ship truck trailers.  This was done with
"piggy-back" flat car beds, which went through several different
iterations of design.  I think these are fast being replaced by
containers, which work world-wide not just here, also containers can be
stacked 2 high on railcars, so are doubly efficient.

Trains and trucks have an additional difference: trucks are essentially
in part subsidized by public monies.  The road beds they run on etc. are
generally funded by the public, and taxes on fuel etc don't generally
the full expenses.  The usual rational is because "all" of us benefit,
part should be covered by the public sector.  Railroads, by contrast,
are usually funded privately.  The roadbeds, etc., are private property,
and acquiring new roadbed, especially anywhere where people already
live, is nearly impossible.  As a general rule, railroads, as private
businesses, are expected to fund the gov't, and not the other way
around.  Additionally, in many areas, railroads have all sorts of
complicated and bizarre rules and laws, both in relation to government,
and also with unions and other interested parties.  The rules and laws
can make it hard for railroads to change the way they do business.  For
instance, many railroads would like to eliminate the fireman and just
have an engineer in the cab of most locomotives -- unions especially
hate this move.  Sometime in the near future it ought to be possible to
have fully automated freight trains, but I don't think many people are
prepared to argue this would actually be safer.


#65 of 111 by gelinas on Wed Jul 2 11:02:33 2003:

Monday's All Things Considered included a story on the rail situation in
Chicago.  Apparently, the rail companies are willing to put up some of the
money to connect the two terminuses (yeah, in Latin it would be "termini"),
but the project is so expensive they want the government to put up the rest
on the ground of "we all benefit."


#66 of 111 by gull on Wed Jul 2 18:34:08 2003:

Re #58: I tend to strictly observe the speed limits everywhere except
Michigan.  I know how much cops love to ticket people with out-of-state
plates.

Re #59: I-80 is the same way.  I-75 has a mix of traffic until about 10
pm, at which point the cars disappear and the semis take over.  I kind
of prefer it that way.  Semi drivers are, on the whole, much more
predictable.

Re #62: They tried it, and it's still done in some places, but it's not
too common.  It didn't work well because of the inefficiencies of
loading trucks on rail cars -- with highway weight limits what they are,
and the dimensions of semi trailers, you end up with substantially less
tonnage than you'd normally put on a rail car.  What's mostly replaced
piggybacking is intermodal containers.  The big advantage is they can be
double-stacked on lines where the clearance permits it, getting a more
reasonable amount of tonnage per car.  (I realize as I read on  through
the item that this is basically what's pointed out in #64.)

Another interesting application of container freight is "land bridge"
operations.  Containers are unloaded from a ship on one coast, put on an
express freight train, then unloaded onto another ship on the other
coast.  The shipping company can turn around their ships faster and
avoid a long, slow, expensive trip through the Panama Canal.


#67 of 111 by orinoco on Wed Jul 2 19:41:06 2003:

(Re #65: And in Italian too.  The central train station in Rome is called
"Termini."  After a few days constantly asking strangers how to get there,
the name got lodged in my head, and apparently it's still there.)


#68 of 111 by lynne on Tue Jul 15 00:10:31 2003:

Hmmm.  I've never thought of myself as "lucky" to be living in the Bosotn
er, Boston area.  It has, however, made me a much better driver, if only
to deal with all the other assholes around here.  Anyhoo, I routinely drive
10-15 mph over the speed limit, in all states.  I have never been stopped,
much less gotten a ticket.  I do make an effort to find a "bunny" to 
follow--someone who's going about as fast as I want to go, who will 
presumably draw off a single police car that's looking to ticket.  The first
and only time my bunny got pulled over was outside Buffalo a few months 
back.  
California's an interesting state.  I understand that the law there is such
that you can get a ticket for doing anything that they deem to be interfering
with the flow of traffic.  Thus, you can get a ticket for going only 70 mph
in a 65 zone if everyone else is trying to go 75-80.  
Are radar detectors legal or illegal in Michigan?  Don has a Valentine One
radar detector (they're legal in CA) and it's pretty impressive.  Were I
more worried about getting speeding tickets, I would certainly get one.
It tells you what radar band it's detecting, where the signal is coming from
(ahead, behind, right or left) and how many signals it's picking up.  The
only problem is that it also picks up some burglar alarms that use radar,
so you get occasional false alarms.


#69 of 111 by dcat on Tue Jul 15 01:25:01 2003:

Radar detectors are not illegal in michigan.


#70 of 111 by scg on Tue Jul 15 03:23:52 2003:

California has a pretty precise impeding traffic law -- if six or more cars
are stacked up behind you, you have to pull over and let them pass.  Speeding
up to the point where they weren't stacked up behind you would mean you
weren't impeding traffic anymore, but I've never heard of that being an excuse
to get out of a speeding ticket.


#71 of 111 by jmsaul on Tue Jul 15 04:07:58 2003:

Isn't Virginia the only state that bans radar detectors?


#72 of 111 by scott on Tue Jul 15 05:27:51 2003:

According to http://www.afn.org/~afn09444/scanlaws/radar4.html
only DC and Virginia currently have laws against radar detectors.

However, there are also different kinds of radar detectors, and the
laser-based systems are much harder to detect in time to actually do something
about your speed.


#73 of 111 by jmsaul on Tue Jul 15 11:59:45 2003:

Whoops, forgot about DC, which doesn't get to make its own laws.


#74 of 111 by gull on Tue Jul 15 15:31:27 2003:

With modern "instant on" radar, you're hoping someone in front of you
will get clocked before you do so you'll know to slow down.  With laser
this doesn't work, because the beam is too narrow.  By the time your
detector goes off, you're already in trouble.


#75 of 111 by mvpel on Wed Jul 16 18:10:41 2003:

Check out this article:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33569


#76 of 111 by russ on Thu Jul 17 11:57:03 2003:

Mike, World Net Daily is hardly accurate or well-balanced, and
I speak as someone who sympathizes with some of their goals.


#77 of 111 by mvpel on Thu Jul 17 18:47:00 2003:

I think I must have posted that in the wrong item, sorry folks.

Re: 76 - and your standard for accurate, well-balanced reporting is what, the
New York Times, maybe?  :-D

Re: 17 - this is precisely the result of ignoring the 85th percentile speed
as the standard for setting speed limits.  If you set the limit at that rate,
the vast majority of people driving on the road will be comfortable with the
speed.

The 55mph speed limit, by cementing it in the minds of motorists that speed
limits have nothing to do with reasonable, safe speeds under normal road
conditions, has arguably done more to damage highway safety than to support
it.


#78 of 111 by rcurl on Thu Jul 17 21:25:44 2003:

The 55 limit was implemented to save fuel. Of course, saving fuel wasn't
a primary concern of most of the public.


#79 of 111 by mvpel on Thu Jul 17 23:42:34 2003:

It was kept for as long as it was because of "safety" concerns.


#80 of 111 by rcurl on Fri Jul 18 00:38:03 2003:

That came after. But it was safer - except when people disobeyed it, which
became more and more frequent. I agree it wasn't enforceable once fuel
became more abundant and people became richer and when laws are not
enforceable it is time to consider changing them. After all, laws are made
by people. 


#81 of 111 by russ on Fri Jul 18 02:01:07 2003:

Re #77:  Accurate, yes.  Well-balanced, no; I have serious issues
with the editorial positions and the obvious omissions in many of
the stories.  But that doesn't mean WND is better just because
they're opposed.

Re #78:  Raising fuel taxes would have; people care when it hits
them in the wallet.  Look what cigarette taxes have done for smoking.

Unfortunately pols tried to do this "painlessly", and pain (or
necessity in some other form) is the only thing that gets many
people to change their habits.  "First you gotta get his attention."


#82 of 111 by lynne on Sat Jul 19 23:09:31 2003:

heh.  fuel economy?  i realize that the 55 mph fuel-economy argument is from
a previous generation, so to speak, but the idea of fuel economy being a
concern in today's SUV-happy climate...well.  Until I noticed it was rane
posting in #78, I thought that was tongue in cheek.


#83 of 111 by rcurl on Sun Jul 20 19:21:33 2003:

Sorry - I didn't think that some would not be able to translate the expression
"fuel economy". 


#84 of 111 by russ on Wed Jul 23 03:06:40 2003:

Re #82:  It may be a joke to today's average driver, but it's not a
joke to most environmentalists; the president of the American Solar
Energy Society has words about the subject in the latest issue of
_Solar Today_.  Some people are trying to do something about it;
today I discovered calcars.org, which I hope to be able to peruse
more thoroughly to find more food for thought.


#85 of 111 by lynne on Wed Jul 23 20:08:23 2003:

<for the record, I am not among the SUV-happy hordes.  I drive a stick shift
station wagon--uncoolest of the uncool, but with great gas mileage and an
amazing amount of interior space.>


#86 of 111 by rcurl on Wed Jul 23 23:43:09 2003:

(That describes my car too.)


#87 of 111 by jiffer on Thu Jul 24 02:26:37 2003:

I drive a 97 Geo Metro... i can still speed in my wonderful hawaiian themed
death mobile.

./


#88 of 111 by gull on Thu Jul 24 19:41:37 2003:

Alas, stick-shifts are getting hard to find.  Especially in wagons.


#89 of 111 by slynne on Thu Jul 24 20:04:46 2003:

I love stick-shifts and I want my next car to be a wagon. I will find a 
wagon with a stick shift!


#90 of 111 by lynne on Thu Jul 24 20:11:59 2003:

That was sort of a nice side effect of only being able to afford a fairly
old car--made it easier to find a stick shift.


#91 of 111 by glenda on Thu Jul 24 20:23:05 2003:

We have a Saturn wagon with a stick shift.


#92 of 111 by rcurl on Fri Jul 25 00:24:43 2003:

Subarus can be obtained with stick shift. I drive a Subaru Legacy wagon
with stick. (Our daughter, who is at college with another Subaru wagon
with stick shift found it helped in politely turning down requests to
borrow her car: Q: "May I borrow your car?" A: "Sure - but it has a stick
shift." R: "Oh - well, thanks anyway.....")


#93 of 111 by lynne on Fri Jul 25 23:02:29 2003:

My parents have a Subaru manual wagon precisely because it was about all 
they could find with a stick shift.  I think it's ridiculously uncomfortable
to drive; my mother hates driving it and riding in it, and my brother agrees
with both of us.  Luckily we all have our own (non-Subaru) cars.  Mine is
a '91 Corolla wagon, which is perfect for me.  I think I'm going to take it
with me when I move to California--although it's likely that I will use 
one of my boyfriend's (stick shift but non-wagon) cars on a daily basis,
it'll be useful for transporting large objects and taking the as-yet 
hypothetical puppy places.


#94 of 111 by dcat on Fri Jul 25 23:53:23 2003:

Part of the reason I don't have a licence yet is because my father wanted to
teach me to drive a stick, and give me his previous car, an '88 Honda Civic.
But the Civic hasn't been driven in two years, since he got the car he has
now, and nobody really knows if it works.  Nor does anyone have time to find
out, apparently.


#95 of 111 by scg on Sat Jul 26 00:29:41 2003:

I prefer driving sticks over automatics, but I'm just as glad to have learned
to drive on an automatic first.  Finguring out the mechanics of a stick shift
at the same time as figuring out how not to run into things strikes me as a
lot to keep track of.

What part of California are you moving to, Carolyn?


#96 of 111 by lynne on Mon Jul 28 01:15:14 2003:

re 95:  Malibu.  :)  
re 94:  A car that hasn't been driven in two years will have a dead battery
at the very least.


#97 of 111 by dcat on Mon Jul 28 01:21:46 2003:

Yeah, well, as I've just received the bill for school for next year --- $4800,
or about ten times what the gov't said we could be reasonably expected to
pay--- it's going to be a while before it's really much of a concern :-\


#98 of 111 by bru on Mon Jul 28 02:06:05 2003:

also there is a good chance the breakes are shot, the calipers rusted
together, and the rotore seriously rusted.


#99 of 111 by albaugh on Fri Aug 1 17:57:58 2003:

If you like driving a stick shift, you would like living / driving in the
Philippines, where most of the vehicles are stick shift (standard, i.e. not
automatic, transmission), and most of them use diesel fuel.


#100 of 111 by lynne on Sun Aug 3 17:34:30 2003:

Diesel?  Yuck.  Might as well go live in Europe.  Oh wait--I already did.


#101 of 111 by gull on Tue Aug 12 20:24:20 2003:

Both of my current cars are stick shifts.  I do find driving a stick
fun, and the simplicity and lower maintenance is good, but it's not so
much of an issue that I wouldn't buy an automatic transmission car.

I do think it's good to learn how to drive a stick, so you aren't
limited in what you can drive later.


#102 of 111 by gull on Tue Aug 12 20:24:56 2003:

Oh, I forgot one benefit of owning a stick shift car:  Friends never ask
to borrow it.


#103 of 111 by dcat on Tue Aug 12 20:55:41 2003:

Actually, a friend has expressed interest in the '88 Civic in my parents'
garage (originally they were going to give it to me when i got a licence, but
that hasn't happened yet); she refuses to even consider getting an automatic.


#104 of 111 by russ on Wed Aug 13 02:13:33 2003:

Re #101:  I've got one automatic transmission car with over 160,000
miles on it, and I've never had to do anything to it.  I've never
had a manual go over 100,000 without needing a clutch.


#105 of 111 by gull on Wed Aug 13 13:46:46 2003:

My Honda hasn't gone that far yet, and my Vanagon's probably already had
a clutch job (though I don't know for sure), so I can't comment for sure
on that.  But my dad put 114,000 miles on a Ford Fairmont and it still
didn't need a clutch when he sold it.  On the other hand, our Ford Crown
Victoria's automatic transmission blew up at 90,000 miles, requiring a
rebuilt transmission that was a lot more expensive than a clutch job
would have been.  Our Ford Club Wagon needed a similarly expensive
transmission rebuild at about 100,000 miles, and it never was quite
right again after that.


#106 of 111 by lynne on Wed Aug 13 14:35:29 2003:

re 104:  What do you *do* to your manual cars?  We had an Aerostar minivan
that took all kinds of abuse (including two kids learning stick on it) and
didn't ever require a new clutch.  It had 160K on it when everything else
went and my parents gave up.  My Corolla has 106K and no sign of trouble
yet.  I'm a bit prejudiced, though--I've always figured that simpler is 
better because there are less things that can break on you, and more to
be done about it if they do.  


#107 of 111 by scott on Wed Aug 13 14:52:21 2003:

Cars are so reliable these days that usually the body rusts out before the
transmission or even the engine can wear out.  At least that's the way it
works here in the Midwest... in California I've seen all sorts of seemingly
antique cars, some even with bare metal, and very little rust.


#108 of 111 by gull on Wed Aug 13 18:36:38 2003:

We had a stick-shift Aerostar as well.  It was the van I learned to
drive stick on, in fact.  We never had to put a clutch in it, but I
don't know how many miles were on it when we sold it.

Driving technique can make a big difference in how long a clutch lasts.
 So can the type of driving you do.  Stop-and-go driving, especially in
hilly areas, wears out a clutch much faster.  So does slipping the
clutch excessively during gear changes, using the clutch to hold the car
on hills, or driving with your foot resting on the clutch pedal.


#109 of 111 by arabella on Wed Aug 20 08:05:57 2003:

Hmm, my '96 Ford Contour has its original clutch, at 145,000 miles.  A 
heck of a lot else has been replaced, and replaced again (notably, 4 
waterpumps in a one-year period).  My mechanics say Contours are a pain 
in the ass to fix, and they insist on breaking a lot.  And they don't 
make them anymore...  But I do hope to find another manual transmission 
car when I'm ready to replace my poor old gal.


#110 of 111 by russ on Fri Aug 22 01:27:33 2003:

(Looks like I missed a response...)

Come to think of it, my experience is somewhat limited.  I
replaced the clutch in the light-second Dodge twice, IIRC.
(Never because it really needed it, but because something
else was being done and it made sense.)  Then again, it
*was* a sports car, and turbocharged (think serious slip
to take off fast, because torque didn't really start to
appear until 2500+ RPM; building boost fast for a launch
needed about 3000 RPM).  My first VW died due to lingering
mechanical damage from its first owner's abuse, and never
made it to 100K miles (never needed a clutch).  My Jetta is
still short by over 19,000 miles, though it's still going
nicely (save for a fuel pump going flaky right now).

I guess I still have to see about clutch lifespans.


#111 of 111 by gull on Fri Aug 22 13:23:11 2003:

There *are* cars where the automatic transmission happens to be more
durable, due to flaws in the design of the manual transmission, but
they're relatively uncommon.  One example is the VW Vanagon.  The
automatic is robust and can be rebuilt by almost anyone with no special
tools.  The manual transmission has a design flaw that causes the 3/4
slider hub to crack and break after about 100,000 miles, and requires
special tools to rebuild.


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