To help keep people abreast of developments in this part of the world, I often quote headlines from the Israeli paper Haaretz. Haaretz is an affiliate of the International Herald Tribune and in 2002 was awarded a prize by the Missouri School of Journalism for its excellent coverage under difficult circumstances. If anyone wishes to discuss a particular subject, such as the so-called "right of return", or "Jerusalem", or historical aspects, that would probably be better suited to its own item.169 responses total.
21:02 Three mortar shells land in Gush Katif settlement bloc in the
Gaza Strip; one person lightly wounded
17:14 Leon Uris, whose works included `Exodus,` tale of Holocaust
survivors struggling to found State of Israel, dies aged 78
17:33 Egyptian FM Maher: we expect militant Palestinian groups to
declare a cease-fire in next few days
16:37 Intelligence official: Hamas agrees in principle to 3-month
cease-fire both in territories and inside Israel
16:13 Sharon: Palestinians more forthright about willingness to fight
terror in closed talks than in public statements
15:49 Demolition notices issued for four caravans used as classrooms
in West Bank settlement of Talmon
15:32 Ibrahim Salame, wanted for role in several terror attacks, among
four Tanzim members who army says were planning to attack soldiers
in Nablus area and were arrested
13:51 Palestinian sources: PA urgently asks EU to pressure Hamas by
listing group as terror orgniazation; PA denies report but EU
sources confirm report
11:51 Four Kenyans charged with murder in November bombing of
Israeli-owned hotel in Mombasa
10:36 Four mortar shells land between Gaza Strip settlements of Atzmona
and Slav; Qassam rocket lands near security fence in northern Gaza
00:52 Israeli delegation to Special Olympics in Ireland protest Arab
teams boycotting competitions in which Israel taking part
Sharon should resign-- he is a bully and the Palestinians will never accept peace talks so long as he is prime minister. Sharon has become as much of an obstacle to the peace process as Arafat, never mind the fact that he was popularly elected. He ought to resign for the good of the people. Even if there is just a chance that his resignation will speed the process, it is worth it and he should see that.
Dammit! I hoped Leer-on would start using the News from Illegally Occupied Palestine item. Na ja.
No, and he hasn't yet mentioned Sharon's cabinet meeting declaration that settlement expansion should continue, albeit quietly.
Jim tells me that there have been so many border crossings due to bombings that the Israeli farmers decided to stop using Palestinian agricultural workers (they may not be able to show up for a week at a time) and have imported Thai laborers at great expense (but they will work cheaper). Somehow 2/3 of the Thai people have arrived illegally. Should become an interesting ethnic mix. The illegal Thai workers include sex workers.
Richard, it seems as if Sharon has no difficulty in engaging in peace
negotiations with PA PM Abbas. The problem Abbas has is that for weeks
he's been trying to negotiate with his extremists. Once or twice a week
we hear that an agreement is imminent within days, but then talks break
down. Throughout this process, the terrorists continue to attack innocent
Israelis and then cry foul when Israel attempts to defend itself from
these attacks.
Abbas is having problems not just with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but with
Fatah's Al Aqsa Brigades, the armed wing of his own party which Arafat
continues to incite to violence.
I don't know about the 2/3 figure, but Jim is correct. Many Thai, Philipino
and other workers have come to Israel and taken away work from Arab workers
from the territories. As you note, allowing thousands of people to cross
the border when a small handful of them might be (and have been) suicide
bombers is very dangerous. A sad example where a few bad apples ruing the
barrel, and further proof that terrorism causes poverty (not vice versa):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,893017,00.html
Two years ago Unrwa fed about 11,000 people in the Gaza Strip,
mostly widows and those with no means of support. Today it feeds
715,000: more than half the population.
The average income has fallen from about L1,250 a year to about L300.
The pass rate in school leaving exams has dropped from 71% to 38%
The article goes on to say:
These past two years are the worst for Gaza since the occupation [sic]
began in 1967.
Does this mean that things were actually even worse under Egyptian rule?
Lastly an odd complaint from UNRWA:
"We have asked the Israelis for a great many things, but apart
from a consignment of rice they have given nothing."
Those darn Israelis, refusing to fuel the intifadah against them. Heaven
forbid that the UNRWA should appeal to the local government, the PA, to end
the intifada for the good of its own people. Heck the PA is too busy stuffing
their pockets and Swiss accounts with international aid and squandering it
on weapons instead of building infrastructure and providing food....
14:32 17th victim of J`lem bombing that took place two weeks ago
identified as Haile Abraha Hawki, a foreign worker from Eritrea
17:27 Mortar shell explodes in Israeli settlement in southern Gaza Strip
17:28 Palestinian gunmen open fire on IDF patrol traveling the
Karni-Netzarim road in central Gaza Strip
18:14 Group representing Jewish refugees from Arab countries demands
compensation for property they left behind
http://www.iht.com/ihtsearch.php?id=98479&owner=(IHT)&date=20030207041018
"Muslims lament Israel's existence" (International Herald Tribune, June 4,
2003). "At a time when the Israeli government has accepted the right of
Palestinians to statehood, most Muslim populations surveyed in the Pew Global
Attitudes Project believe by wide margins that the needs of Palestinians
cannot be met so long as the state of Israel exists. The conviction is
strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85 percent), the
Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent), Lebanon (65 percent),
Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent). Former Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright, who chairs the Pew project, called these results 'very
disheartening, and very dangerous, frankly.'"
Anyone still think that Israel isn't facing an existential challenge?
This response has been erased.
I think it's more that most Palastinians currently believe they'll never have a viable state while Israel exists. This editorial expresses the problem well, I think: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/columnists/6128349.htm Excerpt: "The only way to curb terrorism is to turn the Palestinian public against the suicide bombers. That requires Bush to persuade the Palestinians that a return to peaceful negotiations will lead to a viable state. "Look back in history, to 1996, when bus bombers threatened to blow up the Oslo peace process. Back then, the Palestinian public repudiated the militants and pressured a reluctant Yasir Arafat to crush the military infrastructure of Hamas, leading to a long period of calm. Back then, Palestinians (and Israelis) still believed in the peace process. "Arafat bears much of the blame for its failure since then, deceiving his public and tolerating terrorism. Abbas is very different. At the recent Aqaba summit, he publicly repudiated all terrorism against Israelis. But he has been undercut by Sharon and given insufficient backing by Bush. "Abbas comes to power at a time when Palestinians are literally penned into their cities and towns by Israeli roadblocks. Access roads have been bulldozed and blocked by earth berms; students must walk for miles up and down rocky hills to get to university, and sick people trying to reach hospitals get turned back at Israeli checkpoints. "But Sharon spokesman Raanan Gissin rejects the road map requirement of parallel steps to ease Palestinian conditions and build public support for a new peace process. "No, no, not parallel steps," Gissin told me. "First, they have to stop terrorism before the road map is launched." ... "Reuven Rivlin, a close friend of Sharon and speaker of the Israeli parliament, insists Sharon "is ready to go far to get peace." Rivlin says Sharon is a pragmatist who "wants to be remembered as one of the greatest Israeli leaders," whose hero is Israel's founding father, David Ben Gurion, a warrior who was also willing to compromise with the Arabs. "Rivlin adds, however, that Sharon will not give up the Jordan Valley, or any of Jerusalem, and would at most consider giving up between 42 and 70 percent of the West Bank. "How would contiguity be preserved between disconnected chunks of West Bank land, cut by settlements, settler roads, and fences? Rivlin says Sharon might be willing to "isolate or evacuate about 17 settlements." That would leave 128 settlements intact. "Gissin says that disconnected Palestinian lands would be linked "in some places by tunnels, in some by bridges, in some by territory." This long-term vision of Bantustans linked by tunnels bears an uncomfortable resemblance to the old South Africa. It won't push the Palestinian public to challenge Hamas.
Bad analysis. This Palestinian Arab state would not only be on half or
two-thirds of the territory (South African Bantustans were on 14%), but
would be internationally recognized as an independent and sovereign state
(Bantustans were not).
Ironically, at Camp David and Taba, the Clinton compromise offered Arafat
a state on a net 97% of the territory (including the Arab neighborhoods of
eastern Jerusalem). Arafat rejected this without a counter-offer and Abu
Mazen (PA PM Abbas, who this article will have us believe is a leopard
without Arafat's spots) fully supported this. The PA newspaper Al-Ayyam
quoted him on 7/29/2001 saying:
Regarding the proposals which came up following Camp David, and
specifically with regard to what was termed the Clinton Proposal...
When they say: 'We offered you ninety-five percent,' I'm asking:
'Why not one hundred percent?' When they are saying, almost full
control over Jerusalem: [I'm asking] 'Why wouldn't the control be
full?'
Was the quibble here truly over 3% of territory which is mostly inhabited
by Jews? Or was the real issue an excuse not to settle the conflict in
such a way that would preclude later demands against Israel, ultimately
its destruction? Consider what Arafat did upon ditching Camp David. He
attempted to seek support for a unilateral declaration of independence.
In other words, he wanted to establish a state without making peace with
Israel. A state from which he could then fight to destroy Israel.
Thus rather than make a counter-offer to the Clinton compromise, the PA
made demands that were sure to preclude any deal. I've mentioned the petty
refusal to grant Israel commercial air flight space (so that passenger
planes could take off and land in Israel, which would be too narrow for
east/west approaches). And look what else Mazen/Abbas said:
We told them: 'We would not agree that you would have any kind of
presence in the Western Wall.
If the Jews wanted peace, they'd have to forego Judaism's holiest site!
Not in favor of Islam's [very distant] 3rd holiest site, but for a wall
where an Arab legend (invented in the early 20th century for political
reasons) says Mohammed parked his winged horse.
So here's the question: if everything is based upon a state, why was there
no pressure in the "Arab street" for Arafat to accept the Clinton plan?
Why, to the contrary, did Arafat tell Clinton that "I invite you to my
funeral" if he would accept such a compromise?
The problem with "parallel steps" is that Israeli steps are concrete and
tangible whereas Arab steps are nebulous and mythical. For example, I'm
still waiting for the PA to modify the PLO Covenant (which calls for the
destruction of Israel and rejects peaceful compromise. Arafat was supposed
to amend this in the mid-90s). Yet even if the document is rescinded in toto,
it can be reinstated in seconds and at no cost. If Hamas and other terrorists
are rounded up and put in jails, they can be released in seconds.
This time around the Arab terror organizations must be destroyed. You
can't have peace and terror simultaneously. Terrorism trumps peace.
It only takes 1 side to make war, but all sides to make peace.
20:06 Gaza hospital officials identify one of two people killed in IAF
strike at Hamas militant as Arkram Yousef Abu Farhana, 30
20:17 Blasts rock U.S. Embassy compound in Monrovia; injuries among
thousands of Liberians seeking protection there
23:25 Three people killed, 16 wounded when shells crashed into U.S.
embassy compound in Liberia`s capital Monrovia
20:30 Hamas leader Rantisi after IAF strike in Gaza: Every time we near
truce decision Israel `slaughters more of our people`
Perhaps they should stop pretending to get "near" and actually do it?!
20:39 At least eight killed in fighting between Yemeni government forces,
suspected Islamists in southern Yemen
20:42 U.S. President George W. Bush: `In order for there to be peace,
Hamas must be dismantled`
20:49 U.S. President Bush reacting to reported cease-fire by Palestinian
militants: `I`ll believe it when I see it`
21:30 Palestinian gunmen open fire on Israeli vehicle traveling near
Hawara, located south of Nablus; no reported injuries
23:04 Gazan Hamas leaders surprised, angry at reports of truce deal
agreed by group`s official in Syria, Khaled Mashal
Pretenders!
00:26 Data shows 82,600 tourists entered Israel in May 2003, 36 percent
more people than in May 2002
00:47 Following Bush call for EU to cut off Hamas funding, France insists
group remains necessary player in peace process
Can anything good be said about France?
If it didn't exist the devil would invent them.
01:00 Four mortar shells fired at settlement in Gush Katif bloc in Gaza
This response has been erased.
08:01 Front page of PA mouthpiece Al-Ayyam says Hamas, Islamic Jihad
and Fatah agree to 3-month cease-fire
09:04 Two Qassam rockets land Thursday morning near western Negev town
of Sderot [in Israel proper, not the disputed territories.]
09:49 Palestinian MP Fares confirms militant groups reach truce deal,
foresees formal announcement in coming hours
10:17 Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine says doesn`t accept
three-month cease-fire on attacks against Israel
It's pretty obvious Abbas is being set up for failure. He's expected to do with what's left of the PA security force what Israel couldn't do with total military superiority. Negotiating is his only option, since he doesn't have the ability to defeat Hamas by force, but Sharon has already said that negotiation won't be good enough.
The PA police is composed of 40,000-60,000 people. Hamas, IJ & PFLP
combined are less than 2000. This isn't an issue of force but of access
and will. Strangely, the PA doesn't use this excuse employed by its
apologists -- no one at that level would take it seriously. To the
contrary, the PA is preparing to establish security control in areas
from which Israel will vacate.
13:00 Al Aqsa Martyrs` Brigades claims Baka al-Garbiyeh shooting attack which
killed Israeli civilian [a 31-year old telephone technician at work]
17:38 Unconfirmed report: Police and Shin Bet intercept three Palestinians
with explosives belts near Baka al-Garbiyeh
19:37 Arab TV station: Ex-Iraqi information minister al-Sahaf
surrendered to U.S. troops, was questioned and released
19:57 IDF Lieutenant Colonel Geva Sagi convicted of behavior unbecoming
an officer for intifada-related transgression
21:41 Defense Minister Mofaz: I`m disappointed with slow pace of PA
implementation of the Aqaba summit agreements
22:51 Explosive device, two molotov cocktails thrown at IDF troops in
Balata refugee camp near Nablus
23:17 Initial report: Israeli in W. Bank settlement of Beitar Ilit
lightly hurt in shooting from El Hader, near Bethelehm
00:12 American playwright Arthur Miller awarded Jerusalem Prize;
U.S. ambassador Dan Kurtzer accepts prize on his behalf
01:13 Sappers safely neutralize bomb with 25 kg explosives near Gaza
Strip security fence, close to Kibbutz Nahal Oz
07:39 Bomb lightly wounds IDF soldier during attempt to arrest Hamas
leader near Netzarim in Gaza
09:02 Fourth Palestinian killed in exchange of fire in Gaza operation
10:11 IDF operation in Gaza follows intelligence warning of major
terror attack at Karni Crossing
18:55 Defense Minister Mofaz to Condoleezza Rice: Arafat still controls
PA power centers, is undermining PM Abbas
21:21 Fatah announces joining Hamas, Islamic Jihad cease-fire, doesn`t
specify for how long will halt attacks against Israelis
21:27 IDF begins withdrawal from Beit Hanun area in the Gaza Strip
21:48 Pakistani president Pervez Musharraf tells state television nation
must seriously consider recognition of Israel
22:04 One Israeli lightly wounded in shooting attack in Hebron
22:26 Radical PLO member Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
says won`t join truce declaration, but won`t violate it
23:14 IDF completes troop withdrawal from northern Gaza Strip; small force
to remain in one location overnight... control for northern Gaza town
handed over to PA forces
00:03 Democratic Front for Liberation of Palestine says it agrees to
halting attacks against Israelis for three months
00:07 Despite truce, Palestinians fire anti-tank rocket at IDF position
next to Neve Dekalim in Gaza
02:08 Several mortar shells fired at Gush Katif settlement bloc in the
Gaza Strip
16:04 Palestinians open fire on IDF outpost near Gaza settlement of
Netzarim, soldiers return fire
16:19 Negev police to start painting camels with luminous paint, as part
of effort to reduce number of accidents they cause
18:03 Palestinians open fire on workers building security fence in
Qalqilyah area
20:20 Poll taken on eve of cease-fire declaration showed that 80 percent
of Palestinians are in favor of truce
23:08 Popular Front for Liberation of Palestine - General Command, based
in Syria, rejects cease-fire
00:52 PA Security Minister Dahlan on Al-Jazeera: All Palestinian
factions should understand that there is one Palestinian gov`t
I missed it, but on Tuesday an Arab gunman was killed after opening fire
on Israeli soldiers.
PA security also claimed it had arrested 2 terrorists planning a suicide
attack.
And PMs Sharon & Abbas held a good meeting from which lots of positive
comments emerged.
Wednesday news so far:
00:44 Pleased with performance of Abbas and his new finance minister,
U.S. is considering resumption of direct aid to PA
06:40 U.S. official: U.S. to announce on Wed. a $30m. aid package for
Palestinians to repair roads, restore public services
06:56 Powell on Fox News: Abbas must act with heavy hand against Hamas,
others as long as they pursue terror
07:16 Dahlan tells Israelis during Tuesday talks: You won`t see any more
buses exploding, trust me
07:46 `Superman` actor Christopher Reeves to visit Israel this summer
08:06 IDF troops arrest six wanted Palestinians early Wednesday in the
West Bank
08:16 Survey finds that just 14% of Israelis believe that hudna
cease-fire agreement will hold for the full three months
08:30 Israeli security guard lightly injured in shooting attack on
security fence building site near Tul Karm
08:31 Bomb explodes near West Bank town of Qaliqilyah; no injuries reported
08:10 IDF closes Gush Katif junction in Gaza to Palestinian traffic
following anti-tank missile fire that wounded 4 Israelis
08:18 Security committee to meet Thursday on transferring more cities to
Palestinian control
08:26 Deputy Defense Min. Boim: Freeing prisoners is gesture that
strengthens Abu Mazen, which is is in our interest
09:02 Palestinian sources: Sharon and Abbas to meet again next Tuesday
09:35 Palestinians say their security services arrested two men
Wednesday in Gaza suspected of firing mortar shells
11:10 PA security affairs minister Dahlan: PA is looking for group
responsible for Wednesday rocket attack
11:28 Radio Palestine: Palestinian PM Mahmoud Abbas to meet with Hamas
and Islamic Jihad representatives in Gaza
14:09 Beit El East outpost residents withdraw High Court petition to
call off evacuation
14:12 Settlers remove seven caravans from Shavei Shomron West outpost
14:32 Shots fired at IDF outposts near Gaza settlements of Gadid and
Neve Dekalim
15:10 United Nations committee awards city of Tel Aviv-Jaffa world
heritage site status
15:53 Top Hamas official Rantisi says he sees truce failing, was only
declared to avoid internal Palestinian conflict
Yesterday's news:
18:18 Al-Aqsa Brigades: killing of activist by IDF negates truce, response
`will come quickly and will be like earthquake`
19:58 77-year-old man arrested near Detroit on suspicion of having served
as WWII concentration camp guard in Austria
20:46 Netherlands asks Germany to arrest 6 Dutchmen who served as Nazi
officers and were convicted of treason by Dutch court
21:29 Abbas to meet with Hamas, Jihad officials Thurs. night on
possibility of them joining PA gov`t in some framework
21:52 Dahlan: Palestinians will do everything it takes to convince the
Israeli population that we can live side by side
22:37 Soldier indicted at military court for allegedly killing elderly
Palestinian near Gaza settlement of Netzarim in March
23:07 2 Israelis lightly hurt near Tapuah junction south of Nablus after
their car overturns as a result of stone throwing
23:37 Masked men fire arms in air near home of Abbas, Dahlan`s office to
protest arrests of four Fatah militants
01:03 Palestinian security forces arrest five militants on charges of
firing mortar bombs at Gaza Strip settlements
04:04 U.S. federal judge rules that Hamas must pay more than $116
million for murdering two settlers near seven years ago
09:00 Palestinians fire at truck holding workers building separation
fence near Qalqilyah
09:05 Palestinians fire anti-tank rocket and throw grenades at IDF
troops near Rafah in Gaza overnight
00:02 Oxford University professor who refused to consider an Israeli
student`s application will face disciplinary panel
01:01 Two mortar shells, one anti-tank rocket fired at central Gaza
Strip settlement
08:00 Exchanges of shots between PA and Popular Resistance Committees
during Gaza crackdowns overnight Fri.
08:59 Palestinian killed and two others injured when explosive device
detonates near Sufa checkpoint in Gaza Strip
12:00 26 total anti-aircraft missiles shot at northern city of Kiryat
Shmona; only 2-3 actually land, cause damage
13:12 Altogether, Palestinian security forces arrest 12 Palestinians
in Gaza refugee camp for launching mortars
17:35 Israeli Kayak rowers win two silver medals, bronze medal in
world championship in Zagreb, Croatia
19:24 Israeli tennis player Andy Ram, Anastassia Rodionova from Russia
make finals of mixed doubles at Wimbledon
re: 12:00 26 total anti-aircraft missiles shot at northern city of Kiryat Shmona; only 2-3 actually land, cause damage lk: When did they acquire anti-gravity weaponry?
09:35 Palestinians say their security services arrested two men
Wednesday in Gaza suspected of firing mortar shells
11:10 PA security affairs minister Dahlan: PA is looking for group
responsible for Wednesday rocket attack
-----
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=17504
--
Violating Roadmap: Revolving Door In Gaza -
Terrorists Released by PA After Talk
Aaron Lerner Date: 6 July, 2003
IDF Head of Military Intelligence Major General Aharon Zeevi Farkash told
Israel Radio in a live interview broadcast this morning that while the
Palestinian Authority (PA) detained some terrorists suspected of attacking
Israeli targets in the Gaza Strip since the PA took security responsibility
in the Gaza Strip that they released the terrorists after talking with them.
This is violates the Roadmap, that requires the PA not only to arrest, but
also to "restrain" such terrorists.
==
http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,6712042%255E401
,00.html
--
THE radical Islamic movement Hamas said today that an agreement by the Israeli
government paving the way for the release of some 350 Palestinian prisoners
was "insufficient".
"We demand the liberation of all the detainees and in particular those from
Hamas and we are not prepared to accept discrimination in this regard," senior
Hamas official Ismail Hanyeh told AFP.
But the spokesman said that the move represented a "first step" as he
confirmed that the release of "all those in detention" remained a condition
of a ceasefire agreed by Hamas and three other major militant groups last
weekend.
==
And from the July 6 Haaretz news ticker: 09:06 Senior PA official: If Israel doesn`t decide in principle to release all detainees, PA will withdraw from roadmap "Detainees" being terrorist masterminds and thwarted suicide bombers.
The irony, of course, is that the PA doesn't really want these terrorists
released, to bolster their power against that of the PA "moderates".
Israel should agree to release them once a peace treaty is concluded.
01:59 PA security source: PA forces arrest woman, 18, from Gaza as she
tried to reach Israel to carry out suicide bombing
07:21 Mubarak to meet Assad, will press Syrian leader to persuade
militant groups in Damascus to continue truce
08:05 Palestinians: PA forces arrest 3 militants who tried to place
explosives near road used by IDF in southern Gaza
08:14 Sources in defense establishment worried by reports Hamas stepping
up production of Qassam rockets
Have the released terrorists and murderers promised to be nice?
Lynne is in charge of the nice school. (:
(She is soooo nice! I just love killing her with kindness.)
Yesterday's news:
11:06 IDF soldiers find explosive device near Rafah, on Egyptian border;
sappers safely detonate device
13:02 IDF finds and safely detonates seven pipe bombs and several
weapons in village south of Nablus
14:10 IDF troops find seven pipe bombs, ammunition in village of Einbos,
near West Bank city of Nablus
14:15 Palestinian Authority orders all media outlets under its control
to cease airing incitement broadcasts
About time! I believe Arafat committed to doing this in the October 2000
Sharm Agreement.
16:10 Saudi paper quotes Arafat aides telling Abbas: ``After 55 year of
national struggle you turned us into terrorists
Not sure I follow that. Is the meaning that by finally renouncing terrorism
now, the last 55 years of "national struggle" are delegitimized as terrorism?
18:13 Hamas, Islamic Jihad turn down Egypt`s request to extend cease-fire
to period of six months
Hmmmm. Do I have to say it?
Why not?
Are they just using this period to re-arm while their motive continues to
be the disruption of the peace process and the destruction of Israel?
No.
Likely.
Why aren't these items more honestly titled, "Propaganda, mindlessly regurgitated by Leeron"? Just a suggestion.
HI AARON!
Thursday, July 10:
14:15 Palestinian Authority orders all media outlets under its control
to cease airing incitement broadcasts
A broadcast on Palestinian Authority television on Sunday, July 14:
=======
The killing of Jews is a mandatory religious obligation established by Islam's
founder Muhammad, according to a Muslim academic who spoke on Palestinian
Authority television.
"Muhammad said in his Hadith: "The Hour [Day of Resurrection] will not arrive
until you fight the Jews, [until a Jew will hide behind a rock or tree] and
the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew
behind me, come and kill him!'" said Hassan Khader, founder of the Al Quds
Encyclopedia.
Khader spoke during a lecture, broadcast Sunday, on what he describes as the
war of the Jews against Palestinian "trees."
The program was monitored by Palestinian Media Watch, or PMW, an Israel-based
group.
PMW director Itamar Marcus says Khader's statement was one of many instances
in recent years of Palestinian religious leaders teaching publicly that this
Hadith part of Islamic traditions attributed to Muhammad is a current
obligation of Islam.
Marcus says these teachings challenge the common belief that the premise for
negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians is over borders.
"Palestinian religious and academic leaders publicly teach that the
Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam's irreconcilable religious war
against the Jews," he says.
"To justify this view," he adds, "Palestinians repeatedly cite Islamic sources
to demand as religious doctrine, that Jews be hated, even demanding the
killing of Jews as the will of Allah."
Marcus says "the continued expression of this PA worldview is most ominous."
"For by depicting redemption as dependent on Muslims' murder of Jews, the
murder of Jews is being presented as mandatory religious obligation," he says.
=======
One easily obtains the impression from this, and like instances elsewhere and at other times, that religions are sick.
18:24 PA finance minister signs deal for $20 million in direct U.S. aid
to rebuild municipal infrastructure in West Bank, Gaza
18:42 Palestinian PM Mahmoud Abbas says will meet President George W. Bush
in Washington on July 25
20:56 PA Information Minister Nabil Amr: PA to make efforts to persuade
various factions to extend cease-fire
21:11 Jibril Rajoub, former PA security chief in West Bank: PM Abbas is
subordinate to Chairman Arafat
21:56 PA Intelligence Chief Tawfik Tirawi denies any PA role in finding
and rescuing abducted Israeli [cabbie] Eliyahu Gurel [who was
rescued yesterday after being kidnapped by his fare to Ramallah]
22:12 Hamas leader Rantissi dismisses suggestion of indefinitely
extending cease-fire by militant groups as `dreams`
23:00 Palestinians open fire at IDF post in Gush Katif area of Gaza Strip
23:13 Palestinian sources say 14-year-old killed in West Bank city of
Nablus, likely while preparing explosive device
NO, lk. You're supposed to enter this in the "News from Illegally Occupied Palestine" item.
That reminds, polyt, that you never answered my questions relevant to determining if the Israeli administration of the disputed territories is illegal or even an "occupation". > Aside from the British Mandate in that name, when was there ever an > Arab state of "Palestine"? When was the last time Arabs controlled > this land and what was its status?
13:49 [Arab] Militants abduct Palestinian governor of West Bank town of
Jenin, witnesses and militant leader say
16:18 PA Minister Nabil Amr condemns kidnapping of acting Jenin district
governor Haider Irsheid by Palestinian militants
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/319680.html
Eyewitnesses said gunmen pulled 50-year-old Irsheid from his van
and beat him with their hands and gun butts before bundling him
into another vehicle and driving off toward the city's refugee camp.
The local leader of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, Zakariye Zubeydi,
said the group was holding Irsheid and accused the acting governor of
being an Israeli collaborator who "has been involved in many crimes
against our people." Zubeydi demanded that the PA put Irsheid on trial.
A Palestinian security source said the militants had been angered
when Palestinian security forces in Jenin were sent to arrest an
Al Aqsa gunman in the refugee camp.
Al Aqsa has been blamed for several small-scale attacks on Israelis
since the main Palestinian militant groups declared the temporary
cease-fire on June 29.
Zubeydi said Palestinian security officials had asked, on behalf of
Arafat, for Irsheid's release.... "We respect Arafat and his orders,
but this guy must be held accountable and put on trial for his
crimes," he said. "He's in good condition, we're not torturing him."
17:43 Palestinian militants release Palestinian governor of Jenin,
Haider Irsheid, after holding him for five hours
Hmmm. Too bad Arafat never spoke out, over 2.5 years, against the terrorism,
in an attempt to use his influence to end the violence.
Can't remember if I mentioned it, but the other day residents of Nablus
marched in protest of abuse heaped on them by similar militants:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-2918615,00.html
PALESTINIANS DEMONSTRATE AGAINST VIOLENCE
By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH
Thursday July 17, 2003 7:29 PM
Hundreds of Palestinians demonstrated in Nablus against violence by
armed men after gunmen shot and killed a young mother and a teenager
died in an explosion.
Three gunmen went into a pharmacy to abduct another man. On the way
out, witnesses said, one of the gunmen fired randomly on the street,
killing Amnah Abu Hiljah, 36, who was holding her 2- month-old baby.
In the second incident, a 14-year-old boy was killed when a bomb he
was playing with exploded, security officials said, adding that the
device was like those planted on... roads against Israeli vehicles.
A protester who identified himself only by his first name, Hassan,
said: ``The people must rise up against them, because all of them
are responsible for the mess in this city.''
The tide begins to turn... ?
I certainly hope so.
13:06 Defense Minister Mofaz tells cabinet terror groups in Gaza Strip
equipping themselves with Qassam rockets
13:12 DFLP in Gaza Strip says PA forces arrested three members over
weekend, demands their immediate release
16:55 Palestinian Authority outlaws groups that incite violence and agitate
for change through force
It only took them 10 years, but they finally did it. Perhaps the next step
will be to finally amend the PLO Covenant (which rejects non-violent means)
as Arafat committed to do at Oslo and pretended to do when Clinton visited
Gaza in ~1996.
Now I'm curious. What do people -- who first were silent when the PA Police
did nothing to maintain order and allowed terrorist groups to attack Israel
with impunity, and who then claimed that the PA couldn't act because Israel
had retaliated by attacking usually empty PP offices (it had issued warnings
so people had time to vacate the building) -- what do you think now?
How can it be that we see the PA Police successfully operating against
terrorists within days of a cease-fire?
Has anything changed in Israel?
No. Sharon was re-elected.
Has anything changed within the PA?
You bet. Arafat has been effectively replaced by Abbas.
Part of a reform process that became possible with Arafats military defeat
last year in Israels spring counter-offensive.
Imagine if Arafat had implemented the Sharm Agreement of October 2000.
Could this cease-fire have been instituted 2.5 years and 3000 lives ago?
"Arafat has been effectively replaced by Abbas." ??? Effectively? Not evident so far.
I'm thinking ahead. Arafat still weilds a lot of power and influence,
but with every passing day.... With Abbas due in Washington this week,
his stature as the de facto leader will take an important step forward.
I'm thinking ahead (OK, I meant to say essentially).
Arafat still weilds a lot of power and influence, but with every passing
day, and with Abbas due in Washington this week, his stature as the de
facto leader will take an important step forward.
From the swords into plow-shares department:
00:30 Toys and other items found on [Palestinian] Karine-A gun-running
ship to be handed to UNRWA for distribution to Palestinian children
Antitrust trouble brewing for Microsoft in Israel By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco Posted: 23/07/2003 at 09:52 GMT Israel's antitrust director has been blasted for dragging his feet over declaring Microsoft a monopoly. In May last year Oded Lavi, of the 'Online Freedom Foundation' asked to declare Microsoft Israel a monopoly. Israel has anti-competitive legislation which alerts regulators to any vendor with over 50 per cent market share. Lavi claims that he has received no response from the Antitrust directorate general Dror Strum. An adjuication would open the door to a flood of complaints from Macintosh users. Last year The Register highlighted how Microsoft had snubbed Arabic and Hebrew users on the Macintosh platform. An adjudication from Strum could open the floodgates for litigation from frustrated Apple users in Israel who argue that Microsoft has frozen Apple Computer out of the Israeli market. Lavi's suit names Israel's Attorney General and Minister of Finance - but not (or at least not yet) Apple CEO Steve Jobs whose neglect of supporting the ancient languages of Arabic and Hebrew on the Macintosh has caused great dismay in the cradle of civilization.
If that is an excerpt it is lacking in clarifying detail, and if it is the entire article, it is really badly written.
We wonder who, exactly, this Mr. Lavi may be. Our Google search on his name found exactly two results. Thus, it would seem, he has little credibility in doing any "blasting."
Yes, it's the full article, and yes, it's not very informative. You want I should hide it?
Geez. I was intimately involved in Hebrew language support for a database system <mumble> years ago, when there was no standard for such things. Now we have Unicode, but Microsoft is failing to support it. Go figure.
Failing to support Hebrew on their Macintosh apps. Windows supports Hebrew.
Leer-on, if you're so hep for the UN, why do you support the country, Israel, which has broken the largest number of UN Security Council resolutions?
This response has been erased.
To-day, Israel killed a 6 year-old terrorist and injured his two sisters, preventing a dangerous breach of Israel's security.
This response has been erased.
I forgot to mention his sisters were also terrorists.
A couple weeks back there was news from the PCPSR (a Palestian Arab reseach
group). A recent survey had revealed that the so-called "right of return"
wasn't so important an issue to Arab "refugees". Since this issue is used
as a weapon against Israel, the news was disturbing to many and a mob
formed to dispute the research, as if by beating Khalil Shikaki (the
cent'ers director) the data would change.
While the data were used to suggest that peace might (or could) be closer
than we believe, other disturbing portions have not been widely publicized:
Question 9: Are there conditions under which you could accept coexistence
with Israeli Jews in peace and security?
Disputed
Territories Jordan Lebanon
----------- ------ -------
Yes 20.3% 9.7% 18.7%
No 79.1% 85.5% 77.8%
Perhaps now people see why I mock the perspective that:
"If only Israel would play nice...."
Israel comes under attack because it exists.
Prof. Benny Morris, one of the "revisionist" historians often quoted by
self-proclaimed "anti-Zionists" (a modern euphemism for "anti-Semite",
the previous code-word invented by Jew-haters) has in recent years come
to a new conclusion:
www.tnr.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20030421&s=morris042103
Palestinian leaders and preachers, guided by history and religion,
have traditionally seen the Jews as an inferior race whose proper
place was as an abased minority in a Muslim polity; and the present
situation, with an Arab minority under Jewish rule, is regarded as a
perversion of nature and divine will.
I believe Oslo failed because for 7 years the anti-Israel incitement and
hatred was not only unopposed but exacerbated by Arafat and his corrupt PA.
While speaking of peace in English, Arafat continued to deliver fiery
speeches in Arabic. From government mass media to school books this campaign
of polarization continued (those who want peace run the risk of being
stigmatized as "collaborators"). Then, at Camp David & Taba, Arafat used
the "Arab street" as an excuse not to accept the Clinton compromise.
So I anxiously await the emergence of an Arab "Peace Now" group and of
peace (rather than violent anti-Israel, anti-USA) demonstrations.
What would it take to start such a grass-roots movement?
Shut-up, you bigoted fag.
shut up you moron.
I'm not a moron, pvn.
Phil, are you volunteering to go to these territories and work for peace now while condemning violence? It would be a refreshing breather from groups such as ISM (the "International [Palestinian Arab] Solidarity Movement") who refuse to condemn suicide bombings and essentially serve as "human shields" for the terrorists?
Yes, of course. Please help finance my trip.
I'll contribute 1000 gribblies to the cause. I'm sure others will chip in, too.
Grex doesn't have gribs, lk.
This response has been erased.
What's the current mathom - Shekel exchange rate?
14:12 Newly elected Jordanian PM Ali Abul-Ragheb vows to help end foreign
occupation in Iraq, Palestinian territories
14:37 Palestinians fire at IDF troops north of West Bank city of Jenin
15:29 Missile explodes close to house in Neveh Dekalim in southern Gaza
16:08 High Court rejects petition of Temple Mount Faithful to be allowed
to visit Temple Mt. on Thursday for Tisha B`Av [the date in the
Jewish calendar on which both the 1st and 2nd temples were destroyed.]
16:32 Arab League decides not to recognize Iraq`s interim government
18:13 Palestinian sources: 15 men arrested by IDF troops Wed. morning in
Jericho were PA security personnel
19:06 Sharon aide: Israel continues to demand that PA carry out Aqaba
summit agreements and act against terror
19:12 J`lem Court extends by 2 days remand for suspected Jewish terror
cell members Yitzhak Pas and Matityahu Shabo
13:31 270 Palestinian prisoners released from Ktziot prison expected to
arrive in PA shortly
17:38 Police arrest far-right Israelis who tried to enter Beitunia
checkpoint, location of release of Palestinian prisoners
19:43 PA`s Yasser Abed Rabbo: Release of prisoners is `worthless and
meaningless, a theatrical step to appease U.S.`
19:46 Sharon advisor Arnon Perlman: We hope release of prisoners is
trust-building move that will promote peace process
19:34 PLC member Kadura Fares: If Israel freed prisoners as goodwill
measure, result was just the opposite
Just the opposite? See what happens when Israel "plays nice"?!
re: "Arab League decides not to recognize Iraq`s interim government" Yes. We read that an Arab League official criticized the interim government for lacking credibility since it was not democratically elected. Right. Just like the "democratically elected" governments of the other Arab countries!
who the fuck is 'we'?
00:36 U.S. urges Libya to take responsibility for PanAm bombing in 1988,
compensate victims` families, as demanded by UN
03:54 NASA to name seven asteroids after Columbia space shuttle astronauts,
including Israeli Ilan Ramon
07:05 Security forces report 14 terror warnings, including kidnappings,
and increase alert level
07:09 Parents of missing U.S. yeshiva student Eliezer Zussia Klughoft
arrived from U.S. Wed. to join search [thought kidnapped by terrorists]
12:21 FBI gets involved in search for missing Tiberias teen Dana Bennet,
a U.S. citizen [perhaps kidnapped by terrorists]
10:20 Palestinian PM Mahmoud Abbas to set off Thursday on visits to Jordan,
Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
10:26 Waqf calls on Muslims to defend Temple Mount against anticipated
Jewish visit
11:07 Police physically block MK Yehiel Hazan from going up to Temple Mount
11:24 U.S. officer on scene: at least 8 dead in attack on Jordanian Embassy
in Baghdad
12:51 Police arrest 10 East Jerusalem teens for vandalizing Jewish graves
on Mount of Olives
11:27 An Indonesian court sentences militant Muslim to death for role in
last October`s Bali bombings
12:56 Five Kenyans plead not guilty to murder charges connected with
November`s Mombasa hotel attack
15:36 Iran denies nuclear scientists from Pakistan, North Korea and other
countries have helped its atomic program
re: "Waqf calls on Muslims to defend Temple Mount against anticipated Jewish visit" And we wonder why Jews fear ceding control of the old city to the Arabs.
Hope none of those named asteroids end up on a collision course with Earth. The irony would be too great.
(Irony?)
08:24 IDF sappers defuse 35-kg [77 lb] explosive device discovered overnight
in village south of Tul Karm
08:57 Yitzhak Pas and Matityahu Shabo, accused of involvement with Jewish
terror cell, are indicted for transporting explosives
09:59 Hezbollah fires mortar shells at IDF position on northern border;
no report of damage or injuries
10:18 IDF Artillery Corps retaliating to Hezbollah fire on northern border
10:56 Hezbollah shells hit Israeli towns of Masadeh and Majdal Shams in Golan
11:06 Lebanese security forces detain three men over killing of Hezbollah
official last week
13:33 Hezbollah firing anti-aircraft shells in eastern section of northern
border between Israel and Lebanon
13:29 Top IDF officer: IDF raid in Nablus targeted two senior Hamas
officials planning a terror attack to take place in Israel shortly
17:43 Funeral held at Moshav Udim for Staff Sgt. Ro`i Oren, killed in early
morning IDF raid in Nablus refugee camp
19:46 IDF: Hundreds of kilograms of explosives, bombs ready for use and IDF
uniforms found at site of Nablus raid
11:33 Hamas spokesman in Gaza: Hamas won`t maintain the quiet of the
cease-fire following IDF raid in Nablus
This demonstrates the insanity of the "cycle of violence" theory.
Hamas plans and perpetrates attacks targeting Israeli civilians.
Israel preempts these attacks as best it can.
Comparing the two as equivalent, morally or otherwise, is idiotic.
Stony-irony, perhaps.
16:18 Hezbollah fires anti aircraft rounds in eastern part of northern
border over [Israeli town of] Kiryat Shmona; no casualties reported
15:48 Air France pilot arrested, flight cancelled after joking with U.S.
security at JFK airport in NY about bomb in his shoe
Let this be a lesson about joking. Of course, if he wasn't French it might
have been ok. As Tom Lehrer pointed out 35 years ago, you never can tell
what side they're on.
12:40 Kuwait puts off visit by Abbas because he wouldn`t apologize for
Arafat`s support of Iraq after it invaded in 1990
07:04 Israel to UN: Hezbollah guerilla raids on Israel threaten to stoke
regional tensions, undermine Mideast peace efforts
Expect a forthcoming UN resolution condemning Israel for shooting back in
self defense.
I'm sure the "play nice" gallery would advocate that Israel should just
heed Hezbollah's demand. All they want is to resolve the border dispute
over the Shaba Farms area which they claim is part of Lebanon. Except that
until 1967, it was part of Syria and as reported by an ABC correspondent
(I believe it was on Nightline otherwise World News Tonight), even Lebanese
text books state the area is not part of Lebanon.
Furthermore, the UN itself has certified that Israel's UNILATERAL (play nice)
withdrawal from Lebanon was complete. So Hezbollah has found a new pretext
to continue their attacks.
This isn't about "playing nice", it's about falling on one's sword to
*appease* murderous terrorists and dictators. As if that has ever worked.
The theory that "if only Israel did N then there would be peace" is
repeatedly shown false. The real model is: "if only Israel did N then
the terrorists would demand N+1."
Terrorist groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas don't attack Israel because
of N, whatever that daily special might be.
They attack Israel because it exists.
There won't be peace until the Arabs accept the model of peaceful coexistence,
or as Golda Meir said 30+ years ago, there won't be peace until the Arabs
love their children [who they are willing to "sacrifice" for the cause] more
than they hate the Jews.
01:13 Palestinians: Youth seriously hurt by IDF fire in West Bank;
IDF: shot after throwing incendiary device at troops
23:30 Palestinian sources: PA security officers find explosives belt,
two bombs in Nablus, which is under Israeli security control
22:43 Man arrested at JFK airport in NY for allegedly smuggling stolen
4,000 year-old Mesopotamian artifacts from Baghdad
21:58 Mortar shell hits house in Morag in Gush Katif settlement bloc in
Gaza; no injuries reported
20:41 Voice of Palestine radio station resumes playing nationalistic
songs, praising Jerusalem and the struggle to conquer it
Just out of curiosity why "anti-aircraft rounds"? I don't understand this. Is this perhaps a mistranslation of "air-burst" rounds which is something completely different? Traditional anti-aircraft artillery was a high muzzle velocity tube which fired a projectile set to go off at a particular altitude with a rather small effective blast radius. Such were effective anti-tank weapons when used horizontally (88mm german flak for example). Even if it were possible to set AA rounds to go off at an altitude that would effect the ground it would obviously frag your own gun crews first as it went up - you would have to remanufacture ack-ack rounds to have a safety which could probably be relatively easily done, but why not use the appropriate weapon in the first place?
I beloev AA rounds detonate based on time after firing, not a pressure sensative switch. And if you can use it against a tank, you can use it against a building.
07:18 Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom: Syria and Lebanon are responsible
for Hezbollah attacks in north
08:29 Hamas claims firing of missile at Gush Katif settlement in which 6
Israelis, including children, suffered shock
10:00 IDF chief Moshe Ya`alon says army believes PA won`t dismantle
terror organizations during time left in cease-fire
11:04 Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas: If the cease-fire fails,
it will be Israel`s fault
12:43 Magen David Adom: Two Shlomi residents wounded, one seriously, by
Hezbollah artillery fire on northern border
13:08 16-year-old Shlomi resident dies of wounds sustained in Hezbollah
artillery fire attack
This response has been erased.
11:43 Lebanese FM to meet with envoys of 5 UN Security Council member
states, UN rep. to protest `Israeli aggression`
19:18 German, Spanish foreign ministers tell Jerusalem they have
demanded from Syria that it rein in Hezbollah
15:00 Palestinians firing intermittently at IDF troops near Gaza
settlement of Neve Dekalim, soldiers return fire
18:32 Abbas: PA security minister has `received clear instructions to
disarm and arrest everyone who violates the cease-fire`
09:14 Initial report: Explosion heard in Rosh Ha`ayin shopping mall
09:17 Police: Several injured in explosion in mall in Rosh Ha`ayin
neighborhood of Neve Afek, building on fire
09:24 Police: Between five and seven people hurt in Rosh Ha`ayin explosion
09:27 Body of suicide bomber found near Rosh Ha`ayin mall
The good news:
14:54 Rambam hospital doctors successfully fertilize 2 women with treated
semen taken from their HIV-positive husbands
The bad news:
09:43 One person killed, Ten people injured in Rosh Ha`ayin [suicide-bomging]
terror attack, two of them seriously, the rest are in light condition
10:10 Police: Palestinian carrying explosive device blows up, probably after
being shot by security forces near Ariel
10:15 Three people seriously hurt in terror attack at hitchhikers station
at entrance to West Bank city of Ariel
11:18 Hamas, Jihad say terror attacks in Rosh Ha`ayin and Ariel justified,
but say they remain committed to truce
11:40 PM Ariel Sharon calls off release of some 80 Palestinian prisoners
12:33 Palestinian PM Mahmoud Abbas cuts Gulf visit short in response to
suicide attacks
13:05 Security sources: Hamas cell responsible for Ariel attack, Tanzim
cell for Rosh Ha`ayin attack; both from Nablus
14:00 In Web site announcement, Hamas claims responsibility for suicide
bombing in West Bank settlement of Ariel
14:01 Prime Minister Ariel Sharon: There will be no diplomatic progress
if terror doesn`t stop completely
16:13 Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claims responsibility for suicide bombing
in Rosh Ha`ayin, names attacker as Hamis Juraan
15:59 Victim of Rosh Ha`ayin suicide bombing identified as local resident
Yehezkel Yakutieli, 42
16:29 Victim of Ariel suicide bombing identified as 18-year-old Erez
Hershkovitz from Elon Moreh
the beat goes on...
22:15 Shots fired at IDF post in area of Kadim settlement in West Bank
22:16 Shots fired at IDF post next to Gadid settlement in Gush Katif area
of Gaza Strip
00:01 Mortar fired from Gaza Strip at Israeli target, but shell exploded
in Palestinian territory
08:34 Former Ugandan dictator Idi Amin dies in Saudi hospital
07:39 Libya accepts responsibility for 1988 Pan Am bombing that killed 270,
vows to fight terrorism
12:53 Libya expresses readiness to compensate victims of 1986 bomb attack
on Berlin discotheque
12:04 China`s two last SARS patients recover and leave hospital, marking
end to virus which killed 349 people in country
12:58 Mossad agent Yehudit Nasiyahu, who took part in nabbing of
Adolph Eichmann from Argentina, dies over the weekend
16:20 IDF to allow Palestinian farmers from W. Bank village of Anin,
near Jenin, to cultivate lands west of fence
Humor: I wonder what Idi Amin requested for his last meal.
12:10 Hezbollah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah says there are negotiations
with Israel over a prisoner exchange
Meaning that Hezbollah may finally turn over bodies in exchange for live
prisoners. Some Israelis, and I doubt they are still alive, have been held
hostage for 2 decades.
13:09 Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade claims Sunday night W. Bank shooting attack
in which young woman was injured
15:00 Japanese Mideast envoy agrees to Israeli request and won`t meet
Yasser Arafat during tour of region
15:04 Archeological dig uncovers a settlement dating back 8,000 years;
was continually inhabitted for 3,000
15:56 Beirut paper An-Nahar editorial criticizes Hezbollah activity in
south, Iran and Syrian policy in region
re: "#83 lk): Humor: I wonder what Idi Amin requested for his last meal." Should that be "who" he requested as his last meal??
This response has been erased.
20 killed, over 110 hurt in Jerusalem bus bomb At least 20 people were killed and over 110 were wounded in a suicide bombing on a packed bus in downtown Jerusalem last night. Soon after the attack, Israel suspended all talks with the Palestinian Authority on handing over four West Bank cities. Thirteen of those wounded in the attack, which took place around 9 P.M. in the capital's Shmuel Hanavi neighborhood, are in serious condition, while the rest were lightly injured. Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas also condemned the attack. "I announce my strong condemnation of this horrible act which does not serve the interest of the Palestinian people at all, and I have given my instructions to the security minister to launch an investigation," said Abbas, who was meeting with Islamic Jihad representatives in Gaza at the time of the blast in an attempt to persuade them to halt attacks against Israelis. A short time after the explosion, the Hezbollah-run television station Al-Manar and several news agencies received phone calls claiming to be from Islamic Jihad's military wing in which they took responsibility for the attack. Late last night, [Hamas] distributed a leaflet in Hebron saying the bombing was carried out by a supporter of the group, Raed Abdel-Hamed Mesk. However, Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi insisted that Hamas was not involved. "We are commited to the truce. I don't know who carried out this action," he said. The leaflet called last night's attack "a modest and preliminary response to the violation of the cease-fire by the Sharon government. Whoever attacks us with water, we will attack him with fire." "We have proved that we are not weak, and that we will hit as needed. WE OBLIGATED OURSELVES TO THE HUDNA [TRUCE] ONLY FOR INTERNAL PALESTINIAN REASONS." Spokesmen for Jihad issued similar statements.
More words from Mr. Abbas, but no action.
"Round up the usual suspects!"
Well, it's generally easier to demonize one person (now Mr. Abbas) than it is to dismantle illegal settlements as required by the roadmap.
Hamas doesn't really want the settlements dismantled, or they wouldn't keep derailing the peace process. It's not hard to figure out their motivation; if the peace process ever moved far enough along that the Palastinians had real hope for the future, support for Hamas would dry up.
This response has been erased.
I tend to agree with gull on this. I think groups like Hamas are not interested in peace and will do whatever it takes to derail the peace process. Unfortunately, I also think that whenever Israel treats the Palestinians harshly, they drum up support for Hamas. It is a circle. Hamas blows something up in Israel. Israel kills some Palestinians in retaliation or bulldozes some houses or whatever. The Palestianians get angry and support Hamas. Hamas blows something up in Israel...and so on and so on. And of course, because Israel can be counted on to retaliate, all Hamas has to do whenever it looks like their might be peace is to blow something up in Israel. I have never seen a country as easily manipulated as Israel has been by Hamas. Unfortunately, both innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians are suffering for it.
er s:/their might/there might
Unfortunately, we see that Ms. slynne entirely ignores the fact that the so-called "Road Map" (which we believe is not worth the paper on which it is printed) obligates the Arabs to disarm/dismantle Hamas and other terrorist organizations. Also, unfortunately, we see that Mr. Abbas has chosen to totally ignore that requirement, as well. Until Arab leadership complies to this requirement, one ought not expect the situation to substantially change. Here, by the way, is Phase 1 of the "roadmap," as found on MSNBC. What efforts do you feel the Arabs have made so far? What requirements have they met? "Phase One "Begins with statements by both sides renouncing violence and affirming the right of the other side to a state. "Palestinians halt violence, make efforts to disarm violent radicals and stop them from carrying out terror attacks, restructure security services and reform their administration in preparation for statehood. "Israel and the Palestinians resume security coordination. "Israel stops operations that harm Palestinian civilians, takes steps to normalize Palestinian life, gradually withdraws forces from Palestinian cities and towns back to pre-violence lines as security and cooperation increases. Israel dismantles settlement outposts established in recent years and freezes all settlement construction in the West Bank and Gaza."
So far neither the halt of violence or the settlement freeze have occurred.
The news says that the Israelis took out a Hamas leader today via rocket attacks on the car he was in. Perhaps a / the Hamas leader who claimed responsibility for the bus bombing. The "cease fire" such as it was is now off. I'm not going to be an apologist for *everything* that Israel does, but 2 things strike me about this: 1) The Israeli attack was directed at a particular person, the leader of a group acknowledged to be "at war" with Israel. The bus bombing was an indescriminate act of terrorism directed at no one personally responsible for any miseries of the Palestinians. Why not try to take out Israeli leaders, or at least military personnel? Civilian bus attack? That's bullshit. 2) How is it that the Israelis could find and take out a Hamas leader, but the Palestinian leaders couldn't seem to snatch up the guy, for questioning, imprisonment, etc.? Or is it that they *wouldn't*? Talk of condemnation is one thing, but let's see it backed up by tangible actions.
Precisely!
Granted that Hamas is NOT interested in peace, hence their attacks. However, you'd think that by now there wouldn't be any more "top Hamas leaders" for Israel to attack, given the how often those middle-of-the-city rocket attacks seem to happen.
This response has been erased.
That's a very Leeron-esqe final sentence, Dan. Of course none of that would be possible unless there was a large pool of people willing to join Hamas, which would of course would not be possible if there was a genuine possibility of peace and of fair relations with Israel.
This response has been erased.
Scott seems to miss that Arafat walked out of Camp David 2000 without as much as a counter-offer to the Clinton compromise. But that's just the latest iteration. In 1937, the Arabs rejected compromise. In 1947, the Arabs rejected the UN compromise and instead of establishing an Arab state in western Palestine they chose to attack the newly founded Jewish State. After the war, they Arab League issued their "3 NOs" for the first time: No negotiations, No recognition of Israel, No peace with Israel. Following the 1956 war, Israel unilaterally withdrew from all territories it captured. It hoped that this sign of good faith would encourage the Arabs to make peace. The Arab League re-issued its "3 NOs". Then came the 1967 war. This time Israel did not withdraw. The UN Security Council passed Resolution 242 (calling for Israel to withdraw from some of the territories, as determined during negotiations, as part of an overall peace settlement -- in effect authorizing the Israeli administration). Israel accepted UNSCR 242. The Arab League? It re-issued its "3 NOs". Then came the surprise Arab Yom Kippur attack in 1973. There were no calls to end the war while Israel was fighting for its survival. But once the attack was repelled and Israel was marching on Cairo and Damascus, the UN immediately called for a ceasefire. Israel unilaterally withdrew from all territories it had captured and Kissinger began his shuttle diplomacy. By the time of the Carter era, Sadat was ready to come to Jerusalem to make peace (there was never any question if Israel would accept him). The historic Camp David Agreement followed. Despite an open invitation, neither the PLO nor any Arab nation joined these peace talks. Quite the opposite, Egypt was expelled from the Arab League. It would take another 20 years for Arafat to renounce terrorism (for the first of many times) and the Oslo process would begin after the first Gulf War -- with a luke-warm reception, if that, in much of the Arab world. The opportunities have been there. As the late Aubrey Eban quipped, Arafat never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. (I also recommend everyone re-read Kevin's response in #96.)
Lynne, this isn't really a "circle". We all seem to agree that Hammas,
Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, the PFLP, etc., are against the peace process.
We've also seen that they will attack Israel regardless of whether it
"plays nice" or not (in fact, attacks are more likely, or more successful,
exactly at times that Israel is "playing nice" because that is when the
terrorists have the operational room they need to carry out attacks. Israel
isn't playing "not-nice" out of some cruelty but in self-defense.)
In other words, the cycle isn't one of:
terrorism -> Israeli response -> more terrorism,
for further terrorism ensues even absent an Israeli response.
This is the cycle:
Terrorism -> Israeli response -> peace opportunity -> more terrorism
Consider that the "reform" of the PA was possible only after Israel's
spring 2002 counter-offensive, enabling Arafat to be partially by-passed
on the road to peace.
But that's not enough. The terrorist groups must also be dealt with.
If Israel doing so causes a terrorist "response", then it is up to the
PA to do so. Yet they refuse to disarm and dismantle these groups which
are the thorn in the side of the peace process.
09:37 Second Qassam rocket was fired at Sderot, bringing total since
Thurs. night up to seven
08:25 Egyptian Pres. Mubarak sending his advisor to PA for talks,
expected to press PA to fight terror groups
Ah, classic - I never mentioned Arafat in my response, but Leeron makes him the core of his "rebuttal".
I do think sooner or later Israel is going to have to face up to the fact that their current retaliation policy doesn't work. The most recent attack, in particular, seems to have been a total disaster -- there were attacks before Israel's most recent rocket attack, but there have been a lot more since. Unfortunately they don't seem to have any other strategies, other than waiting for the wall to be completed.
This response has been erased.
re: "We've also seen that they will attack Israel regardless of whether it "plays nice" or not (in fact, attacks are more likely, or more successful, exactly at times that Israel is "playing nice" because that is when the terrorists have the operational room they need to carry out attacks." Not only that, but the Arab terrorists - who oppose any agreement with Israel - need to attack when it appears that progress toward a settlement is being made. It's sabotage of any movement toward solving the conflict. Catch 22: Failure to stop the war is cause for terrorism; Stopping the war is cause for terrorism. How can one negotiate in good faith under such conditions?
Re 106: 1. Pay more than lip service to their part of the roadmap. 2. Don't build a wall which takes Palestinian land. 3. Provide more work opportunities other than just "clean the toilets on days when we feel like letting you scum into Israel". Even just allowing Palestinian businesses to have consistent access to resources and customers would be a step forward.
This response has been erased.
re: "#108 (scott): . . . 3. Provide more work opportunities . . . ." Why should Israel be required to provide employment for non-citizens. It would seem to us that if the "Palestinians" are to have a viable state, then it should be able to have a viable economy of its own.
Re 110: Respond to the entire point, not just the first sentence.
This response has been erased.
"Even just allowing Palestinian businesses to have consistent access to resources and customers would be a step forward."
This response has been erased.
Why exactly would you say that, Todd?
This response has been erased.
Could you translate that into English? Near as I can figure, you're claiming that the Palestinians cheerfully settled a desert in hopes of getting help from others.
This response has been erased.
Scott's engaged in his usual twit arguments. > Ah, classic - I never mentioned Arafat in my response, but Leeron makes him > the core of his "rebuttal". For the record, my 39 line response mentioned Arafat twice, primarily to close with the quote that he "never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity" in response to a comment that there have not been opportunities. In fact, the core of my response was that this Arab rejectionism predates and is much larger than Arafat. Likewise Scott's points regarding what Israel can do are red herrings. The wall is being discussed elsewhere, but Israel is not impeding commerce. Terrorism and a war-like atmosphere is. Prior to the intifada, the PA had experienced 3 years of economic recovery (poverty does not cause terrorism, terrorism causes poverty). In fact, I believe Israel is the largest market for PA businesses. (Hmmm, if you sell to Israel are you a "collaborator"?) Todd, you're basically repeating what Kevin said. The comparison of the murder of 20 innocent civilians riding a bus to the killing of 2-3 people responsible for those murders is hardly tit-for-tat or equivalent in any way shape or form. To take it one step further, terrorist leaders have called for more "martyrs" to avenge even the deaths of suicide attackers. Again, if Israel acting against the terrorist is detrimental to the peace process then the PA must do so itself. Even if the 3 points Scott listed had merit, they pale in comparison to the routine and wanton murder of innocent civilians, for which the PA is responsible due to its inaction.
08:57 Abed Rabbo: PA prepared to punish lawbreakers, but won`t be able to
do so as long as Israel fighting PA institutes
Israel has not done so for months. The PA must stop making excuses and
start jailing terrorists.
11:03 Israeli officials: Egyptian envoy El-Baz failed to persuade Arafat
to give Abbas control over security apparatus
This is the core of the current problem. Arafat is doing what he can to
sabotage Abbas' efforts. Even during the truce, he continued his incitement.
13:14 Syrian Police arrest 22 human rights activists in northwestern city
of Aleppo
Does anyone care?
14:02 Palestinian FM Sha`ath: We want a hudna between all the PA, all its
organizations and Israel, a full stop to violence
He doesn't get it, either. There can only be one PA government.
Sometimes I think the peace process can't move forward until Arafat has died of natural causes. (Obviously assassinating him will just make things worse.)
On the contrary, I think its long since been past the time that the US assassinated Arafat - he personally ordered the execution of two US diplomats in the Sudan for only one example of many. Its time the US adopted "Chicago rules" - 'they put one of yours in the hospital, you put two of theirs in a grave'. It works in the midwest, it will probably work in the middle-east.
I think it'd just increase anger against the U.S., and by proxy, against Israel.
How can it possibly increase "anger against the U.S." more than it already is? Its time for the US to live up to its reputation by doing what it is accused of already.
This response has been erased.
07:26 Palestinian security forces arrest 13 militants, among them 12
weapons smugglers
07:28 Abbas, Dahlan threaten to resign if General Nasser Yousef
appointed as interior minister
08:24 Palestinians fire Qassam 2 rocket from Gaza Strip at Zikim beach
south of Ashkelon
08:33 Aides pressuring Dahlan to quit as security minister following
Arafat`s move to appoint Yousef interior minister
09:08 PA Minister Nabil Amr: Nasser Yousef will turn down interior
minister post as he will not be given enough power
09:17 Source: Some progress in German-mediated talks between Israel,
Hezbollah on prisoner swap, but still no deal
10:00 Explosives laboratory uncovered in Nablus casbah area
11:04 Abbas agrees to naming Yousef as interior minister, on condition
that Yousef gets control over security apparatus
11:32 Dahlan`s media adviser says PA Chairman Arafat decides against
appointment of Yousef as interior minister
13:21 Palestinians open fire on IDF post in Rafah area of Gaza, close
to smuggling tunnel closed off by PA forces
corporate sponsorship
17:55 Wiesenthal center urges operation against Nazi criminals in Austria,
where Nazi trials haven`t taken place in 2 decades
18:55 PA Security Affairs Minister Dahlan suing Ma`ariv newspaper for
quoting him as saying `Arafat is a lying dog`
19:27 Mortar shell lands in Neveh Dekalim settlement in Gush Katif
20:41 PA security chief in the Gaza Strip Abdel-Razek al-Majaydeh orders
action to halt rocket and mortar attacks on Israelis
He waited 8 weeks into the cease-fire to do this?!
22:11 Palestinians: Four killed in Israeli Air Force strike in Gaza City
22:40 IAF missile strike on car in Gaza took place 100 meters from
PA security chief Mohammed Dahlan`s Gaza City office
22:42 Hamas source says two of those killed in IAF strike in Gaza City
were members of Hamas military wing
I've been too busy the last week to post headlines, but I'm sure everyone
is aware of recent events. Terrorist groups (Hamas in particular) continued
to attack and murder innocent Israeli civilians and the Israeli army
continued to attack the Hamas leadership.
This has led to a crisis within the Palestinian Authority. Prime Minister
Abbas wanted to move against the terrorist organizations, but Chairman
Arafat refused to relinquish control over the security apparatus (indeed
he attempted to appoint a new security chief). Abbas stated that he will
not be a figurehead and under threat of resignation demanded control of
these forces. Yesterday he resigned.
I wonder, do the Arabists still whine that these PA security forces don't
work to stop terrorism because Israel bombed a few empty buildings a year
ago, thus "destroying" their ability?
Isn't it strange that since his appointment as PM 4 months ago, Abbas and
Arafat have been struggling over who controls these "destroyed" forces?
Evidently Abbas (and other high ranking PA officials, both those seeking
peace and those attempting to block it) believe that these security forces
can be marshalled to control terrorism.
Yet Americans, Europeans and others who claim to be for peace use this
as an excuse? What gives?
From today, 2 interesting headlines:
14:13 Source close to Abbas says he might serve a PM again, if
deal is reached with Arafat on his powers, gov`t composition
13:40 Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesman says Iran holds Israel
responsible for resignation of PM Mahmoud Abbas
And so goes the propaganda within the Arab/Muslim world, perpetuating
the cycle of intransigence and rejectionism: the leadership whips up the
"street" and then claims it can't go against the wishes of the people
(as if these are democracies).
This response has been erased.
From the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/10/international/middleeast/10MIDE.html?hp=&
pagewanted=print&position=
Two Palestinian suicide bombers killed at least 13 people in separate attacks
today, striking a popular cafe in Jerusalem's most left-leaning neighborhood
and a bus stop [near a hospital] crowded with soldiers southeast of Tel Aviv.
...The attacks came on a day when the Israeli military killed three men, two
of whom were identified as Hamas terrorist leaders. A 12-year-old boy hit by
shrapnel died later, Palestinian witnesses said.
...The attacks today seemed to be intended to jar any sense of Israeli
security lingering after a unilateral cease-fire declared by the Palestinian
factions on June 29, but since abandoned.
At both scenes, witnesses described a sickening mix of familiarity and shock.
Sgt. Nurit Betzer, 20, a medic, was on her way to the bus stop in Tsrifin when
she heard the explosion and ran to help. "I saw bodies that were torn in
half," she said. "It's hard when you know your friends are in here somewhere,
and all you can smell is the smell of blood and smoke."
Sergeant Betzer apologized for bursting into tears as she spoke. "I don't know
why I'm crying," she said. "I shouldn't even be moved by today this is
already my sixth attack."
She spoke about how soldiers were required to keep their boots shined, and
said: "I saw this time a soldier, and he was dying, and his shoes were neat.
I can't take it anymore."
...Today, in a shootout after Israeli troops surrounded an apartment building
in Hebron, soldiers killed the two men identified as Hamas leaders. The army
said it was investigating the death of the 12-year-old.
- - - - -
01:47 Gazans celebrate after suicide attacks
04:21 ER chief at Shaare Zedek Medical Center killed in Jerusalem bombing
Dr. David Appelbaum, 50, and his 20-year-old daughter, Nava, were
killed hours before she was due to get married.
04:39 Police force to be beefed up with hundreds of soldiers under police
command
05:07 Sharon spokesman Ra`anan Gissin: PM will cut India trip short by
half a day, return to Israel early Thursday
You would think even Leeron would get bored with his anti-Palestinian propagandizing and hate-mongering.
Let's see. Mr. aaron reads about Israelis dying in their streets and reaches a conclusion that the Arabs are the victims. There something wrong with that picture, no?
Indeed there is something wrong with that picture. You forgot to mention that Palestinians are dying in the streets as well.
I think a creative solution would be for Israeli parents to forcibly
adopt all newborn Palestinian children and raise them as their own until
the age of majority. That would serve the purpose of insulating those
children from the propaganda of martydom until they're old enough to
consider it rationally.
Of course I don't expect it to happen, but it sure would be interesting
to watch if it did.
Naturally, any Israelis who spout frothing anti-Palestinian rhetoric
would be exempted from adopting. No reason to induce self-hate and
neuroses in the children in the atttempt to protect them.
<
the
obligato
ry> ;)
How 'bout we just buy the kids TVs to watch? "Great Moments in Palestinian Parenting "An Israeli raid in Hebron killed two Hamas terrorists, the Jerusalem Post reports. Palestinian Arabs say a 13-year-old boy also died when he was hit by shell shrapnel. And what was the boy doing there? 'Standing on the sidelines watching the action with his family.' Sounds like a great show to take your kid to." Thanks to Best of the Web on opinionjournal.com
Yes, Palestinians are dying in their streets because they're shooting at Israelis, firing rockets, or happen to be close to people who are engaged in other murderous activities (e.g. members of Hamas). The Israelis are dying (and targeted) just for being Israelis. And it's the moral support of people like Scott that allows it to continue. Even in the USA we don't prosecute police for stray bullets fired at violent criminals. Holding others (who live under a far greater threat) to a higher standard than we hold ourselves is simply wrong.
It's not just wrong, it's insane to compare the death of murderers with the deaths of their victims. Is there really any comparison between these events? 1. Israeli troops surround a house with Hamas leaders inside. They refuse to surrender and in the ensuing gun-fight are killed. An innocent by-stander is also killed in the battle. 2. Suicide bombers blow up a cafe and a bus stop, murdering 15 people and injuring scores of others. Talk about a false equivalence! Some might be tempted to describe the above as a "cycle-of-violence" -- as if (1) could justify (2) (whereas the reverse is true), but as we've seen terrorist bombings have taken place during cease-fires and when Israel was "playing nice". Terrorists don't attack Israel because Israel attempts to defend its civilians from terrorists (this should be tautological). Terrorists, as they themselves state, attack Israel because it exists. Terrorists attack because they oppose negotiations, compromise and peaceful coexistence.
Terrorists use terror methods to promote their agenda because it has worked in the past. We in the U.S. and the weat have allowed it to work, adn because of that, they have expanded and grown, spreading their ideals across the world along with their "soldiers". When we pull out or seek a cease fire to negotiate, we simply show the terrorist that their methods work. Positive reinforcement. The question is very possibly going to be decided this weekend in Isreal, when they may vote to expel Arafat, and they may vote to invade the territories and go after the Hamas directly.
Shooting missles into crowded city areas is not "going after HAMAS directly"?
Going after hamas directly involves putting troops on the ground with tanks and rounding them up 1 by 1.
Re #137: I somehow doubt that Hamas is aware of scott, or particularly cares about any "moral support" he might be providing. In fact, they don't particularly seem to care about anything except their own agenda.
Hey! Call the Pentagon and the Knesset and tell them it's allright now. General Bruce is on the job!
other, I am just telling you what the Israeli knesset is discussing. It isn't my idea. Ariel Sharon cut short a visit to india to come back and talk about the possible expulsion of Arafat and troop movements into palestinian territory to confront Hamas directly.
The trouble is that they've sent in troops and tanks before, and while they've assassinated a few Hamas people they can't exactly "confront" them. Hamas is not established in a big building with a blinking sign saying HAMAS on the front, they're mixed in with population.
Yes, they hide behind their own civilian population -- in blatant disregard for the Geneva Conventions, so that you can cynically complain that Israel is evil when civilians get hurt as a result. So what does Scott suggest? He's against Israel going in and confronting Hamas. He's against "assassinations" of Hamas leaders. What does he want -- that Israel should just suffer one terrorist bombing after another and do nothing?
Putting words in my mouth again, Leeron? Typical.
One would think that Mr. scott ought to take heed of his own advice, wouldn't one? To wit, from item 178 #47 of 48 by Scott Helmke (scott) on Thu Sep 11 12:46:45 2003: "And if gull does come up with those numbers, what next? A demand that he substantiate his arguments with notarized copies of square-footage changes?"
-----Original Message----- From: BreakingNews@MAIL.CNN.COM [mailto:BreakingNews@MAIL.CNN.COM] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: CNN Breaking News -- Israel's security Cabinet decides in principle to expel Yasser Arafat, but puts off taking immediate action, Israeli TV reports.
Re 148: You'll have to sort out the differing tenses in my vs. your arguments to see why you're full of shit.
Speaking of "full of shit", Scott, I didn't put words in your mouth, I posed questions to you. What's typical is that you have no answers.
From Leeron's #146: So what does Scott suggest? He's against Israel going in and confronting Hamas. He's against "assassinations" of Hamas leaders. That's NOT putting words in my mouth?
(You meant something different by #140 and #145, Scott?)
(I didn't assert a position in 140 & 145, just pointed out the stupidity of claiming to "confront Hamas directly")
I think that even looking upon defending ourselves agaiinst terrorists as a "war" is stupid. There are literally potentially more of them than there are of us. Attacking terrorists probably creates more than doing so kills. I think the best "attack" against terrorists is to gain the support of the peoples from which they come, so that internal attitudes and pressures make the breeding of terrorists less palatable. Creating conditions so that the Palestinians saw more benefit in preventing terrorism against Israel than in supporting it would over time solve the problem.
Alright. Now, if you would, please give us a prescription for the real world.
Increase aid to Palestine. Hold Israel more accountable of attacking suspected guerillas (it just makes more) by withholding aid if they do that. Consider Palestine as worthy of "nation building" as Iraq.
Oh, please! Those are not serious proposals for the real world. As we believe you previously admitted with respect to the dictator Saddam, aid to the PLO goes right into Arafat's bank account. And, how does the U.S. tell Israel not to fight terrorists when we have pledged to do the same. Self defense is the right of every country. Furthermore, Iraq did not become worthy of "nation building" until its strong-man dictator was deposed, just as is the case with the West Bank Arabs. Would you care to try again?
No. They are serious proposals. The aid to Palestine should be committed solely toward nation building (!). There is some price that will buy the Palestinian action to suppress its terrorist subculture (and for much less than 87 billion to Iraq, and much more worthwhile). Then the US tells Israel to cool it by halting military aid if they continue their attacks. Together these will produce a progress.
00:10 U.S. Supreme Court justice says U.S. could learn from Israeli courts
on balancing war on terrorism, human rights
00:42 UN Security Council`s 15 member-nations warn Israel against carrying
out decision to expel Arafat
07:10 Arafat to thousands of Muqata supporters: `Martyrs we shall march,
in the millions, to Jerusalem`
08:45 Border Police uncover 3 suicide belts containing some 20 kg of
explosives in East Jerusalem village
Joe: I guess that after all the noise Scott makes, we finally learn that he really hasn't said anything and no one should put words in his mouth or expect him to respond to questions. Rane: > Creating conditions so that the Palestinians saw more benefit in preventing > terrorism against Israel than in supporting it would over time solve the > problem. Perhaps you view "the problem" differently than they do. From the perspective of the terrorists (and many Arabs), "the problem" is that Israel exists. There's nothing that you can do to appease them. As they themselves say, they are willing to "sacrifice" even their own children for the cause of destroying Israel. You think you have something better to offer them than martyrdom? Which isn't to say that there aren't Arabs who think otherwise. There are many of them. The problem is that they are marginalized by those in power (even murdered). > There is some price that will buy the Palestinian action to suppress its > terrorist subculture (and for much less than 87 billion to Iraq....) Really? Name it! Recall that this violence came after the rejection of the Clinton compromise. It offered: 1. An internationally recognized and independently sovereign Palestinian Arab state. 2. Contiguous in Judea & Samaria (Trans-Jordan's former "West Bank") 3. Including ALL of Gaza. 4. And the Arab neighborhoods of Jerusalem. 5. With some sort of shared sovereignty over the Temple Mount. 6. And the so-called "right-of-return" to the nascent state 7. Along with $30 Billion to resettle the "refugees". It didn't even earn a counter-offer. Arafat rejected Clinton, attempted to make a unilateral declaration of independence -- establishing a state without making peace, so he could then continue the "struggle" against Israel from this new base of operations. Thwarted by world opinion, he re-turned to violence. > Attacking terrorists probably creates more than doing so kills. Experience shows that this is not true. Despite far-fetched notions in the west that terrorism is a spur-of-the-moment thing (like, I woke up this morning, made a farewell tape and then a powerful bomb hidden on a belt, worked my way through heavy security to a target and blew up. Or I saved my lunch money from yesterday, purchased an M16 rifle ($5000), got to a bus station in Israel and started shooting). No, terrorism is a well oiled machine. It requires lots of money (which makes it ever more ironic that some people believe that poverty is a "root cause" of terrorism), experts to make bombs and lots of other support people. When terrorists are attacked, not only do they lose their leaders (who are often replaced by less competent lieutenants), but they have to go on the run, go underground. Which makes it more difficult to recruit. If your perception were accurate, Hamas should number 200,000 fighters. Yet it's only about 2,000. Islamic Jihad about 1,000. The PFLP about 500. > so that internal attitudes and pressures make the breeding of terrorists > less palatable. What could be worse than the present? Prior to the intifada, the Israeli army had withdrawn from areas where 98% of the Arab population resides. There was a 3-year economic recovery. Only a few thousand people were on the welfare rolls (mostly elderly, widows or disabled). As a direct result of terrorism, the Israeli army has moved back in, set up roadblocks and curfews, and the economy is in shambles. UNRWA is feeding 715,000 people, more than half the population. And the response? We're willing to "sacrifice". If they were interested in bettering their lives (rather than destroying Israel), they could have chosen that road for more than half a century. That isn't their calling. They're more concerned with the next "life". If we want to look at this in a wider view, one could say that Coke, McDonalds, and Levis won Eastern Europe and perhaps the far east. But can they win the near east or is Islam the immovable wall?
http://comics.com/editoons/day/archive/images/day2003016263912.gif
Is this a threat?
09:28 Hamas leader in Syria says EU committed `big mistake` by blacklisting
group as terror organization
(I'd have to dig up the exact wording, but earlier this year Hamas said that
if Canada(?) categorized them as a terrorist organization they would start
blowing up things....)
09:03 Fatah official says Ahmed Qureia will form a government by Saturday
Over the weekend, Israeli forces operating in the territories arrested
several wanted terrorist, including a bomb-maker, and seized several (4?)
suicide-bomb belts that had been distributed and were awaiting deployment.
Did any of those belts happen to be Arafat's size?
This response has been erased.
http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/comics/archive/showComic.hts?date=20 03/9/13&name=Non_Sequitur&quality=g
00:08 U.S. federal judge orders Iran to pay more than $400 million to U.S.
victims of Jerusalem bombing
Once again we see that terrorism isn't an individual act but a well
oiled machine intent on killing innocent civilians.
With Hamas and other terror groups reeling from recent counter-terrorism
actions by Israel:
18:06 Senior IDF source says Palestinians inclined to abandon use of terror
18:08 Senior PA official Saeb Erekat: entire Palestinian leadership backs
proposal for general cease-fire with Israel
18:22 Meretz MK Ran Cohen: gov`t should examine PA cease-fire offer because
it`s not a temporary one
01:01 Jordan retracts decision to freeze accounts of six Hamas leaders
From:
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/340848.html
...Jibril Rajoub, Yasser Arafat's national security advisor, was the first
to issue the [cease-fire] offer earlier in the day.
...Rajoub said Tuesday that the Palestinian leadership stands prepared to
declare an immediate, general cease-fire to end all acts of Palestinian
violence, providing that Israel agreed to halt military attacks against
Palestinians and remove its blockades over Palestinian areas.
Israeli officials were quick to dismiss the proposal, saying that
cease-fires had failed to end the fighting in the past, and that the
government stood by a decision not to agree to a further truce. They cited
a government statement last week, which said a truce was no substitute for
dismantling terrorist organizations.
Speaking to Israel Radio, Rajoub said the cease-fire would not be temporary,
as was the hudna - the truce declared by Palestinian militant groups earlier
this year - but would be a comprehensive, joint Israeli-Palestinian move to
pave the wave for peace talks toward a permanent agreement between the sides.
...Rajoub did not outline how the Palestinian Authority would reach a new
cease-fire deal with Hamas and Islamic Jihad - the two militant groups
responsible for most attacks on Israelis in the past three years. He also
did not say the Palestinian Authority would crack down on militant groups,
a U.S. and Israeli demand.
An Israeli government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said
Tuesday that several truces had not ended the fighting. The official quoted
a security cabinet decision from last Thursday which says Israel will not
agree to any more cease-fires.
"The government of Israel rejects any idea of a cease-fire as a way of
dealing with terrorism. Terrorism will stop only with the dismantlement
and eradication of the terrorist organizations. This is the duty and the
responsibility of the Palestinian Authority and it will be judged only
according to deeds and results and not according to declarations and talk,"
the cabinet statement said.
17:19 IMF: Audit of PA reveals that Arafat diverted $900 million in
public funds to special bank account he controlled
12:14 World Bank representative in West Bank, Gaza: PA needs at least
$1 billion annually to keep economy going
Maybe they should ask Arafat and his cronies to fund this?
16:49 U.S. to PA: New PM must take control of security forces,
will not back gov`t that does not act against terror groups
You have several choices: